Re: For $100, would you change a default font?

[Joel Kulesza]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 8:37 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> Did you look at the printout I linked up?  I would like to know if the
> disappearing symbols are due to something wrong in the printer, or
> pdflatex, or the default font?
>
> Reminder:
>
> Default: http://pj.freefaculty.org/scraps/functions/functions-default.jpg
>
> Lmodern: http://pj.freefaculty.org/scraps/functions/functions-lmodern.jpg


I've had some font/printout issues before that seemed to be able to be
solved by forcing the embedding of the fonts with `pdf2cairo -pdf
infile.pdf outfile.pdf`.

If you have a machine with this command available, I'd be interested to see
what happens when you produce the PDF with LyX using the default font, use
this to force embedding the fonts, and then print the resulting PDF.

Re: For $100, would you change a default font?

[Paul Johnson]

Did you look at the printout I linked up?  I would like to know if the
disappearing symbols are due to something wrong in the printer, or
pdflatex, or the default font?

Reminder:

Default: http://pj.freefaculty.org/scraps/functions/functions-default.jpg

Lmodern: http://pj.freefaculty.org/scraps/functions/functions-lmodern.jpg



On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 11:04 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> I owe you $150 now
>
> I don't have the computer on which the problem arose.  I was using LyX
> in a secured facility where I did not have access to my
> account/settings, that's how I noticed the problem.
>
> On a new laptop with Ubuntu 16.10, I've done some testing. Jean-Marc's
> diagnosis was correct: problem is in printing a PDF file, rather than
> viewing it.  I can "fix" by changing to Latin Modern fonts, but
> perhaps this means there is a bug in PDF or pdflatex or the printer
> driver rather than LyX.
>
> I took snapshots of the output:
>
> Default: http://pj.freefaculty.org/scraps/functions/functions-default.jpg
>
> Lmodern: http://pj.freefaculty.org/scraps/functions/functions-lmodern.jpg
>
> The dash symbol is invisible when using Default font, but not Lmodern.
> I have seen same/similar with the "~" symbol disappearing from printed
> output.
>
> The LyX file is in same directory
>
> http://http://pj.freefaculty.org/scraps/functions
>
> pj
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 9:18 AM, Guenter Milde  wrote:
>> On 2016-10-22, Paul Johnson wrote:
>>
>> Dear Paul,
>>
>>> I usually get great results. Except when I am in a hurry and forget to
>>> change default fonts.
>>
>> Good news: we are working on a fix to the "default default font" problem.
>> See http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/9741 .
>>
>>> In particular, I've been stung by the combination of
>>> the listings class and default typewriter font.  Last week,  I threw in a
>>> lot of R code with "<-" printed to pdf as "< ". There were invisible
>>> dashes. I did not notice and printed handouts for a group. Other symbols
>>> have gone missing, sometimes ~ in verbatim class is invisible.
>>
>> I could not reproduce this. A *minimal* example may help. Also, are the
>> dashes/tildes just invisible or missing? (What happens with drag-and-drop
>> from the PDF? What happens if you zoom in in the PDF viewer?)
>>
>>> It is easy to fix by setting typewriter to Latin modern or other font, but
>>> in an emergency, I always forget.
>>
>> First suggestion: put your favourite font settings in the standard
>> template (and all special templates as well)!
>> (There is a "templates" buttonl in the save-as dialogue. This brings you to
>> the templates directory. Templates are normal LyX files in a special
>> directory. The "special feature" is that when opening via New from Template,
>> the filename is cleared.)
>>
>>
>>> You would make my life more fun if you would make the default something
>>> not-yet-known to give bad results. I'm not talking about fuzzy font edges.
>>> Invisible characters without warning are super bad. Awful.
>>
>> However, we are stuck between a rock and a hard place:
>>
>> * There must be a setting where LyX does not interfere with the font and
>>   font encoding selection by LaTeX.
>>   (For fonts, this setting is called "Default", for the font encoding it is
>>   currently called "None".)
>>
>> * With these default settings, hyphenation is wrong in most languages.
>>
>>   Many languages (Afrikaans, French, German, Irish, Latin, Norwegian,
>>   Spanish, Slovak, Swedish, Turkish, Welsh, ...) are fixed by setting the
>>   font encoding to T1. Therefore LyX has this as "default default".
>>
>> * When neither the document class nor the document preamble (or in our case
>>   LyX) select a custom font, LaTeX falls back to Computer Modern (with font
>>   encoding OT1) or the bitmap EC substitute (with font encoding T1).
>>
>> This means for non English documents the choice is between bad fonts or bad
>> hyphenation and bad support for accented characters (no drag-and-drop from
>> the PDF).
>>
>> Currently, the "default default" font encoding can be customized under
>> Tools>Preferences>Output>LaTeX but the plan is to replace this with an
>> "automatic" setting for the best compromise.
>>
>>> So I offer $100 US if you will change the default font to Latin modern or
>>> any other one. I know that's not much, but I am sincere.
>>
>> What would you prefer as "automatic" choice in case of conflict (language
>> calling for a font encoding not supported by the font)?
>>
>>> I note your FAQ already admits that default LyX fonts make bad PDF. I will
>>> leave to others to discuss that. But the default typewriter font has to go.
>>
>> Lets have a separate look at the typewriter font. (BTW, the txtt
>> typewriter font is a recommended choice - support for bold, etc. good
>> legibility, ... It even got good notes from typophiles not impressed by TeX
>> and CM.)
>>
>> Günter
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Paul E. Johnson   http://pj.freefaculty.org
> 

Re: For $100, would you change a default font?

[Paul Johnson]

I owe you $150 now

I don't have the computer on which the problem arose.  I was using LyX
in a secured facility where I did not have access to my
account/settings, that's how I noticed the problem.

On a new laptop with Ubuntu 16.10, I've done some testing. Jean-Marc's
diagnosis was correct: problem is in printing a PDF file, rather than
viewing it.  I can "fix" by changing to Latin Modern fonts, but
perhaps this means there is a bug in PDF or pdflatex or the printer
driver rather than LyX.

I took snapshots of the output:

Default: http://pj.freefaculty.org/scraps/functions/functions-default.jpg

Lmodern: http://pj.freefaculty.org/scraps/functions/functions-lmodern.jpg

The dash symbol is invisible when using Default font, but not Lmodern.
I have seen same/similar with the "~" symbol disappearing from printed
output.

The LyX file is in same directory

http://http://pj.freefaculty.org/scraps/functions

pj


On Wed, Oct 26, 2016 at 9:18 AM, Guenter Milde  wrote:
> On 2016-10-22, Paul Johnson wrote:
>
> Dear Paul,
>
>> I usually get great results. Except when I am in a hurry and forget to
>> change default fonts.
>
> Good news: we are working on a fix to the "default default font" problem.
> See http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/9741 .
>
>> In particular, I've been stung by the combination of
>> the listings class and default typewriter font.  Last week,  I threw in a
>> lot of R code with "<-" printed to pdf as "< ". There were invisible
>> dashes. I did not notice and printed handouts for a group. Other symbols
>> have gone missing, sometimes ~ in verbatim class is invisible.
>
> I could not reproduce this. A *minimal* example may help. Also, are the
> dashes/tildes just invisible or missing? (What happens with drag-and-drop
> from the PDF? What happens if you zoom in in the PDF viewer?)
>
>> It is easy to fix by setting typewriter to Latin modern or other font, but
>> in an emergency, I always forget.
>
> First suggestion: put your favourite font settings in the standard
> template (and all special templates as well)!
> (There is a "templates" buttonl in the save-as dialogue. This brings you to
> the templates directory. Templates are normal LyX files in a special
> directory. The "special feature" is that when opening via New from Template,
> the filename is cleared.)
>
>
>> You would make my life more fun if you would make the default something
>> not-yet-known to give bad results. I'm not talking about fuzzy font edges.
>> Invisible characters without warning are super bad. Awful.
>
> However, we are stuck between a rock and a hard place:
>
> * There must be a setting where LyX does not interfere with the font and
>   font encoding selection by LaTeX.
>   (For fonts, this setting is called "Default", for the font encoding it is
>   currently called "None".)
>
> * With these default settings, hyphenation is wrong in most languages.
>
>   Many languages (Afrikaans, French, German, Irish, Latin, Norwegian,
>   Spanish, Slovak, Swedish, Turkish, Welsh, ...) are fixed by setting the
>   font encoding to T1. Therefore LyX has this as "default default".
>
> * When neither the document class nor the document preamble (or in our case
>   LyX) select a custom font, LaTeX falls back to Computer Modern (with font
>   encoding OT1) or the bitmap EC substitute (with font encoding T1).
>
> This means for non English documents the choice is between bad fonts or bad
> hyphenation and bad support for accented characters (no drag-and-drop from
> the PDF).
>
> Currently, the "default default" font encoding can be customized under
> Tools>Preferences>Output>LaTeX but the plan is to replace this with an
> "automatic" setting for the best compromise.
>
>> So I offer $100 US if you will change the default font to Latin modern or
>> any other one. I know that's not much, but I am sincere.
>
> What would you prefer as "automatic" choice in case of conflict (language
> calling for a font encoding not supported by the font)?
>
>> I note your FAQ already admits that default LyX fonts make bad PDF. I will
>> leave to others to discuss that. But the default typewriter font has to go.
>
> Lets have a separate look at the typewriter font. (BTW, the txtt
> typewriter font is a recommended choice - support for bold, etc. good
> legibility, ... It even got good notes from typophiles not impressed by TeX
> and CM.)
>
> Günter
>



-- 
Paul E. Johnson   http://pj.freefaculty.org
Director, Center for Research Methods and Data Analysis http://crmda.ku.edu

I only use this account for email list memberships. To write directly,
address me at pauljohn at ku.edu.

Re: For $100, would you change a default font?

[Guenter Milde]

On 2016-10-22, Paul Johnson wrote:

Dear Paul,

> I usually get great results. Except when I am in a hurry and forget to
> change default fonts. 

Good news: we are working on a fix to the "default default font" problem.
See http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/9741 .

> In particular, I've been stung by the combination of
> the listings class and default typewriter font.  Last week,  I threw in a
> lot of R code with "<-" printed to pdf as "< ". There were invisible
> dashes. I did not notice and printed handouts for a group. Other symbols
> have gone missing, sometimes ~ in verbatim class is invisible.

I could not reproduce this. A *minimal* example may help. Also, are the
dashes/tildes just invisible or missing? (What happens with drag-and-drop
from the PDF? What happens if you zoom in in the PDF viewer?)

> It is easy to fix by setting typewriter to Latin modern or other font, but
> in an emergency, I always forget.

First suggestion: put your favourite font settings in the standard
template (and all special templates as well)!
(There is a "templates" buttonl in the save-as dialogue. This brings you to
the templates directory. Templates are normal LyX files in a special
directory. The "special feature" is that when opening via New from Template,
the filename is cleared.)


> You would make my life more fun if you would make the default something
> not-yet-known to give bad results. I'm not talking about fuzzy font edges.
> Invisible characters without warning are super bad. Awful.

However, we are stuck between a rock and a hard place:

* There must be a setting where LyX does not interfere with the font and
  font encoding selection by LaTeX.
  (For fonts, this setting is called "Default", for the font encoding it is
  currently called "None".)
  
* With these default settings, hyphenation is wrong in most languages.

  Many languages (Afrikaans, French, German, Irish, Latin, Norwegian,
  Spanish, Slovak, Swedish, Turkish, Welsh, ...) are fixed by setting the
  font encoding to T1. Therefore LyX has this as "default default".
  
* When neither the document class nor the document preamble (or in our case
  LyX) select a custom font, LaTeX falls back to Computer Modern (with font
  encoding OT1) or the bitmap EC substitute (with font encoding T1).
  
This means for non English documents the choice is between bad fonts or bad
hyphenation and bad support for accented characters (no drag-and-drop from
the PDF).  
  
Currently, the "default default" font encoding can be customized under
Tools>Preferences>Output>LaTeX but the plan is to replace this with an
"automatic" setting for the best compromise.

> So I offer $100 US if you will change the default font to Latin modern or
> any other one. I know that's not much, but I am sincere.

What would you prefer as "automatic" choice in case of conflict (language
calling for a font encoding not supported by the font)?

> I note your FAQ already admits that default LyX fonts make bad PDF. I will
> leave to others to discuss that. But the default typewriter font has to go.

Lets have a separate look at the typewriter font. (BTW, the txtt
typewriter font is a recommended choice - support for bold, etc. good
legibility, ... It even got good notes from typophiles not impressed by TeX
and CM.)

Günter

Re: For $100, would you change a default font?

[Jean-Marc Lasgouttes]

Le 22/10/2016 à 05:35, Paul Johnson a écrit :

I use LyX all the time. I love it and encourage everybody to try it.

I usually get great results.Except when I am in a hurry and forget to
change default fonts. In particular, I've been stung by the combination
of the listings class and default typewriter font.  Last week,  I threw
in a lot of R code with "<-" printed to pdf as "< ". There were
invisible dashes. I did not notice and printed handouts for a group.
Other symbols have gone missing, sometimes ~ in verbatim class is invisible.


I am surprised. Could you provide an example? But I understand the 
frustration when printouts made in a hurry come out wrong. Lastly, it 
was the printer which happily printed PDFs from an usb key, but without 
accents and ligatures :)


JMarc

Re: For $100, would you change a default font?

[Uwe Stöhr]

Am 22.10.2016 um 08:43 schrieb Jürgen Spitzmüller:


Why don't you simply set your preferred "default font" and hit "Save as
Document Defaults"?
Then this will be _your_ personal default.


Hi Paul,

now that you got what you wanted for free, maybe you want to support LyX 
anyway with a donation? ;)

http://www.lyx.org/Donate

regards Uwe

Re: For $100, would you change a default font?

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Am Freitag, den 21.10.2016, 22:35 -0500 schrieb Paul Johnson:
> I use LyX all the time. I love it and encourage everybody to try it. 
> 
> I usually get great results.Except when I am in a hurry and forget to
> change default fonts. In particular, I've been stung by the
> combination of the listings class and default typewriter font.  Last
> week,  I threw in a lot of R code with "<-" printed to pdf as "< ".
> There were invisible dashes. I did not notice and printed handouts
> for a group. Other symbols have gone missing, sometimes ~ in verbatim
> class is invisible.
> 
> It is easy to fix by setting typewriter to Latin modern or other
> font, but in an emergency, I always forget.

Why don't you simply set your preferred "default font" and hit "Save as
Document Defaults"?

Then this will be _your_ personal default.

We do not set a specific default font in LyX because this is class-
dependent.

Jürgen

signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

For $100, would you change a default font?

[Paul Johnson]

I use LyX all the time. I love it and encourage everybody to try it.

I usually get great results.Except when I am in a hurry and forget to
change default fonts. In particular, I've been stung by the combination of
the listings class and default typewriter font.  Last week,  I threw in a
lot of R code with "<-" printed to pdf as "< ". There were invisible
dashes. I did not notice and printed handouts for a group. Other symbols
have gone missing, sometimes ~ in verbatim class is invisible.

It is easy to fix by setting typewriter to Latin modern or other font, but
in an emergency, I always forget.

You would make my life more fun if you would make the default something
not-yet-known to give bad results. I'm not talking about fuzzy font edges.
Invisible characters without warning are super bad. Awful.

So I offer $100 US if you will change the default font to Latin modern or
any other one. I know that's not much, but I am sincere.

I note your FAQ already admits that default LyX fonts make bad PDF. I will
leave to others to discuss that. But the default typewriter font has to go.


Paul Johnson



-- 
Paul E. Johnson   http://pj.freefaculty.org
Director, Center for Research Methods and Data Analysis http://crmda.ku.edu

I only use this account for email list memberships. To write directly,
address me at pauljohn at ku.edu.