Re: How to access the list efficiently? Re: Long threads? / list etiquette? (Was: Options for resolving the minted + shell-escape issue)

[Paul A. Rubin]

On 08/05/2017 10:49 AM, mn wrote:

On 05.08.17 16:26, Paul A. Rubin wrote:


FWIW, I subscribe through GMail, using a filter to put the dev and user
lists in separated virtual folders, but access my GMail account in
Thunderbird (IMAP). The messages are individual. I don't know if there's
a way to maintain threads in T-bird (haven't tried), but I can always
use a "Quick Filter" to isolate a thread.


If you want to try, these ideas might help:
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1079651

greetings
Mike
Oops -- turns out I was having an extended senior moment. There's a 
column header in T-bird that sorts messages into threads if you click 
it. I completely forgot it was there. (Until I subscribed to the LyX 
lists, I never really had a use for threading in my mail client.)


And yes, once messages are threaded, you can tag or mark individual 
messages without tagging/marking the full thread.


Paul

Re: How to access the list efficiently? Re: Long threads? / list etiquette? (Was: Options for resolving the minted + shell-escape issue)

[Paul A. Rubin]

On 08/05/2017 10:49 AM, mn wrote:

On 05.08.17 16:26, Paul A. Rubin wrote:


FWIW, I subscribe through GMail, using a filter to put the dev and user
lists in separated virtual folders, but access my GMail account in
Thunderbird (IMAP). The messages are individual. I don't know if there's
a way to maintain threads in T-bird (haven't tried), but I can always
use a "Quick Filter" to isolate a thread.


If you want to try, these ideas might help:
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1079651

greetings
Mike

Thanks!

Paul

Re: How to access the list efficiently? Re: Long threads? / list etiquette? (Was: Options for resolving the minted + shell-escape issue)

[mn]

On 05.08.17 16:26, Paul A. Rubin wrote:

> FWIW, I subscribe through GMail, using a filter to put the dev and user 
> lists in separated virtual folders, but access my GMail account in 
> Thunderbird (IMAP). The messages are individual. I don't know if there's 
> a way to maintain threads in T-bird (haven't tried), but I can always 
> use a "Quick Filter" to isolate a thread.


If you want to try, these ideas might help:
https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/1079651

greetings
Mike

Re: How to access the list efficiently? Re: Long threads? / list etiquette? (Was: Options for resolving the minted + shell-escape issue)

[Paul A. Rubin]

On 08/04/2017 10:02 PM, Scott Kostyshak wrote:

On Fri, Aug 04, 2017 at 08:22:40AM +0200, Christian Ridderström wrote:

On 2 August 2017 at 10:03, Scott Kostyshak  wrote:



I'm using gmail's web interface these days. This might be why I'm finding
it difficult to efficiently follow threads that are so long.
- The gmail labs thing I used for replying to parts of an e-mail is no
longer working.
- Sometimes the replies don't go to the list. *sigh*
- I haven't figured out how to mark a single e-mail as unread,
   e.g. when I feel I need to reply to it later, and instead have to mark
the entire thread.
   This does _not_ work well for long threads.


I find mutt to be very helpful with emails, but it takes a long time to
get used
to, and I'm not sure it would solve the particular issues you reference.


A decade or so ago I used 'pine' which worked really well for my e-mails
and the LyX lists.
Back then I accessed multiple lists as news groups, but as 'pine' tracks
the posts you've read
through a local file, I had to run 'pine' on a single computer. So I then
ran 'pine' within a screen session on server to which I SSH:d. I needed
this because I worked from multiple computers running on different
platforms.

This worked well, and the drawback was mainly when people posted in HTML,
or included URLs which I manually had to copy and paste.

HTML is still (probably even worse) a problem. Whenever I receive HTML-only
emails, I respond and explain why I would prefer a multi-part MIME email. In the
end, it's not really a problem: Mutt can automatically convert the HTML to text,
using e.g. w3m. Or you can press the keys "vm" and it will view the email in
your browser.

As for links, you can set up mutt to pipe to urlview, which is quite useful.


I stopped using pine, probably triggered by losing access to the server.
There were also issues related to reading regular e-mail when people
started inserting lots of HTML, images and links. I did try switching to
'alpine', and probably considered using 'mutt', but there was still the
issue of needing to run it from a single computer.

Back then I think I could switch topic by changing the subject the topic,
but I'm not sure it works so well when using gmail's web interface.

That I stopped using 'pine' and switched to gmail also resulted in my not
being able to follow the LyX lists, and this was probably the main reason I
became mainly inactive within LyX for a while.
I'm now using my c...@lyx.org account for LyX related issues, and that is
working better -- except that gmail isn't working well at all for me when
there are long threads.

I've changed the subject of this reply and I'll see how it appears in my
gmail. I.e., will it be obvious it's a new topic, or will it be joined with
the original topic.

Regarding breaking threads, I will try to remember to break threads when a
discussion I wish to start is completely new. Please feel free to remind me or
point out where I could have done that. I can see how it would be easier for you
and others.

Scott
FWIW, I subscribe through GMail, using a filter to put the dev and user 
lists in separated virtual folders, but access my GMail account in 
Thunderbird (IMAP). The messages are individual. I don't know if there's 
a way to maintain threads in T-bird (haven't tried), but I can always 
use a "Quick Filter" to isolate a thread.


Paul

Re: How to access the list efficiently? Re: Long threads? / list etiquette? (Was: Options for resolving the minted + shell-escape issue)

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Fri, Aug 04, 2017 at 08:22:40AM +0200, Christian Ridderström wrote:
> On 2 August 2017 at 10:03, Scott Kostyshak  wrote:
> 
> >
> > > 
> > > I'm using gmail's web interface these days. This might be why I'm finding
> > > it difficult to efficiently follow threads that are so long.
> > > - The gmail labs thing I used for replying to parts of an e-mail is no
> > > longer working.
> > > - Sometimes the replies don't go to the list. *sigh*
> > > - I haven't figured out how to mark a single e-mail as unread,
> > >   e.g. when I feel I need to reply to it later, and instead have to mark
> > > the entire thread.
> > >   This does _not_ work well for long threads.
> > > 
> >
> > I find mutt to be very helpful with emails, but it takes a long time to
> > get used
> > to, and I'm not sure it would solve the particular issues you reference.
> >
> 
> A decade or so ago I used 'pine' which worked really well for my e-mails
> and the LyX lists.
> Back then I accessed multiple lists as news groups, but as 'pine' tracks
> the posts you've read
> through a local file, I had to run 'pine' on a single computer. So I then
> ran 'pine' within a screen session on server to which I SSH:d. I needed
> this because I worked from multiple computers running on different
> platforms.
> 
> This worked well, and the drawback was mainly when people posted in HTML,
> or included URLs which I manually had to copy and paste.

HTML is still (probably even worse) a problem. Whenever I receive HTML-only
emails, I respond and explain why I would prefer a multi-part MIME email. In the
end, it's not really a problem: Mutt can automatically convert the HTML to text,
using e.g. w3m. Or you can press the keys "vm" and it will view the email in
your browser.

As for links, you can set up mutt to pipe to urlview, which is quite useful.

> I stopped using pine, probably triggered by losing access to the server.
> There were also issues related to reading regular e-mail when people
> started inserting lots of HTML, images and links. I did try switching to
> 'alpine', and probably considered using 'mutt', but there was still the
> issue of needing to run it from a single computer.
> 
> Back then I think I could switch topic by changing the subject the topic,
> but I'm not sure it works so well when using gmail's web interface.
> 
> That I stopped using 'pine' and switched to gmail also resulted in my not
> being able to follow the LyX lists, and this was probably the main reason I
> became mainly inactive within LyX for a while.
> I'm now using my c...@lyx.org account for LyX related issues, and that is
> working better -- except that gmail isn't working well at all for me when
> there are long threads.
> 
> I've changed the subject of this reply and I'll see how it appears in my
> gmail. I.e., will it be obvious it's a new topic, or will it be joined with
> the original topic.

Regarding breaking threads, I will try to remember to break threads when a
discussion I wish to start is completely new. Please feel free to remind me or
point out where I could have done that. I can see how it would be easier for you
and others.

Scott


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Re: Long threads? / list etiquette? (Was: Options for resolving the minted + shell-escape issue)

[Pavel Sanda]

Christian Ridderström wrote:
> On 2 August 2017 at 11:29, Pavel Sanda  wrote:
> 
> > Scott Kostyshak wrote:
> > > Ah I did not realize you did that on purpose. I actually found it
> > annoying when
> > > I wanted to go up the discussion and couldn't because it was cut off
> >
> > +1
> >
> 
> I just want to check you understood that I primarily mean a new thread when
> the discussion is diverging in topic compared to the original post, i.e. to
> avoid "threadjacking". For instance, would you've preferred this post to
> have been in Scott's original thread?

No, not this post as its completely unrelated to the technical issue of
minted, shell-escape and needauth.

On contrary completely new thread "Living with shell-escape: Using two LyX
instances" in which you pick several quotes from other email and start anew
makes it hard to track the discussion properly within the context later on.

Pavel

How to access the list efficiently? Re: Long threads? / list etiquette? (Was: Options for resolving the minted + shell-escape issue)

[Christian Ridderström]

On 2 August 2017 at 10:03, Scott Kostyshak  wrote:

>
> > 
> > I'm using gmail's web interface these days. This might be why I'm finding
> > it difficult to efficiently follow threads that are so long.
> > - The gmail labs thing I used for replying to parts of an e-mail is no
> > longer working.
> > - Sometimes the replies don't go to the list. *sigh*
> > - I haven't figured out how to mark a single e-mail as unread,
> >   e.g. when I feel I need to reply to it later, and instead have to mark
> > the entire thread.
> >   This does _not_ work well for long threads.
> > 
>
> I find mutt to be very helpful with emails, but it takes a long time to
> get used
> to, and I'm not sure it would solve the particular issues you reference.
>

A decade or so ago I used 'pine' which worked really well for my e-mails
and the LyX lists.
Back then I accessed multiple lists as news groups, but as 'pine' tracks
the posts you've read
through a local file, I had to run 'pine' on a single computer. So I then
ran 'pine' within a screen session on server to which I SSH:d. I needed
this because I worked from multiple computers running on different
platforms.

This worked well, and the drawback was mainly when people posted in HTML,
or included URLs which I manually had to copy and paste.

I stopped using pine, probably triggered by losing access to the server.
There were also issues related to reading regular e-mail when people
started inserting lots of HTML, images and links. I did try switching to
'alpine', and probably considered using 'mutt', but there was still the
issue of needing to run it from a single computer.

Back then I think I could switch topic by changing the subject the topic,
but I'm not sure it works so well when using gmail's web interface.

That I stopped using 'pine' and switched to gmail also resulted in my not
being able to follow the LyX lists, and this was probably the main reason I
became mainly inactive within LyX for a while.
I'm now using my c...@lyx.org account for LyX related issues, and that is
working better -- except that gmail isn't working well at all for me when
there are long threads.

I've changed the subject of this reply and I'll see how it appears in my
gmail. I.e., will it be obvious it's a new topic, or will it be joined with
the original topic.

/Christian

Re: Long threads? / list etiquette? (Was: Options for resolving the minted + shell-escape issue)

[Christian Ridderström]

On 2 August 2017 at 11:29, Pavel Sanda  wrote:

> Scott Kostyshak wrote:
> > Ah I did not realize you did that on purpose. I actually found it
> annoying when
> > I wanted to go up the discussion and couldn't because it was cut off
>
> +1
>

I just want to check you understood that I primarily mean a new thread when
the discussion is diverging in topic compared to the original post, i.e. to
avoid "threadjacking". For instance, would you've preferred this post to
have been in Scott's original thread?

If that's what the majority prefers I can change to that.
/C



>

Re: Long threads? / list etiquette? (Was: Options for resolving the minted + shell-escape issue)

[Pavel Sanda]

Scott Kostyshak wrote:
> Ah I did not realize you did that on purpose. I actually found it annoying 
> when
> I wanted to go up the discussion and couldn't because it was cut off

+1

Pavel

Re: Long threads? / list etiquette? (Was: Options for resolving the minted + shell-escape issue)

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Wed, Aug 02, 2017 at 12:20:24AM +0200, Christian Ridderström wrote:
> Richard wrote:
> 
> > We have spent an enormous amount of time on this ...
> >
> 
> HI,
> 
> Regarding the discussion of LyX's safety I'd like to make a few remarks
> related to ... ?list etiquette? Not sure what the correct term should be,
> but it ought to be clear below.
> 
> Really long threads:
> Are we really ok with threads containing upwards a hundred posts?
> Perhaps at some point it's necessary to simply start the thread over?
> 
> Thread splitting:
> I've tried to break off topics into separate threads, but it _seems_ like
> it's mainly me doing that.

Ah I did not realize you did that on purpose. I actually found it annoying when
I wanted to go up the discussion and couldn't because it was cut off, but that's
probably because I don't have much experience with thread-splitting. I'd be
happy to change my workflow if others preferred it.

> Or maybe it's how the gmail interface presents the thread to me?
> 
> Is it something we're not doing anymore.
> Should thread splitting be avoided, or should we try to do it more?

It might be useful to know what other mailing lists do and if they have related
policies.

> 
> I'm using gmail's web interface these days. This might be why I'm finding
> it difficult to efficiently follow threads that are so long.
> - The gmail labs thing I used for replying to parts of an e-mail is no
> longer working.
> - Sometimes the replies don't go to the list. *sigh*
> - I haven't figured out how to mark a single e-mail as unread,
>   e.g. when I feel I need to reply to it later, and instead have to mark
> the entire thread.
>   This does _not_ work well for long threads.
> 

I find mutt to be very helpful with emails, but it takes a long time to get used
to, and I'm not sure it would solve the particular issues you reference.

> Are there other things we could've done to do the discussion more
> efficiently?
> 
> Using a wiki page for security topics didn't seem like it's (so far) helped
> anything.
> Would a LyX document in git have been better?
> Or a plain text file?

Good questions, I don't know the answer.

Scott


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Long threads? / list etiquette? (Was: Options for resolving the minted + shell-escape issue)

[Christian Ridderström]

Richard wrote:

> We have spent an enormous amount of time on this ...
>

HI,

Regarding the discussion of LyX's safety I'd like to make a few remarks
related to ... ?list etiquette? Not sure what the correct term should be,
but it ought to be clear below.

Really long threads:
Are we really ok with threads containing upwards a hundred posts?
Perhaps at some point it's necessary to simply start the thread over?

Thread splitting:
I've tried to break off topics into separate threads, but it _seems_ like
it's mainly me doing that.
Or maybe it's how the gmail interface presents the thread to me?

Is it something we're not doing anymore.
Should thread splitting be avoided, or should we try to do it more?


I'm using gmail's web interface these days. This might be why I'm finding
it difficult to efficiently follow threads that are so long.
- The gmail labs thing I used for replying to parts of an e-mail is no
longer working.
- Sometimes the replies don't go to the list. *sigh*
- I haven't figured out how to mark a single e-mail as unread,
  e.g. when I feel I need to reply to it later, and instead have to mark
the entire thread.
  This does _not_ work well for long threads.


Are there other things we could've done to do the discussion more
efficiently?

Using a wiki page for security topics didn't seem like it's (so far) helped
anything.
Would a LyX document in git have been better?
Or a plain text file?
/Christian