Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Uwe Stöhr]

Am 23.05.2013 08:46, schrieb Vincent van Ravesteijn:


Your example is not very good. What you describe in the example can be done 
perfectly with what
Jurgen proposed.


Then I misunderstood it.


For the reason that in many cases one or a few floats needs to have another 
alignment than all
other floats, my setting does not change existing floats.


This is not a valid reason. Jurgen's options changes existing floats, but only 
those that have the
default alignment. If you've manually changed the alignment to be left 
aligned, the float will not
be touched. So, this is not a justification for a setting that only influences 
new floats.


Ah, OK that is then fine with me.


I really do not want an option that says how new floats are aligned.


But that is exactly what people often requested.


I do not expect this to be a
property of the document. I have explained before why. If you do not agree, 
then discuss our
arguments. Of course, for every possible workflow, one can think of an example 
that will work
perfectly.


OK, then we put this option to the preferences if you agree.

regards Uwe

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Uwe Stöhr]

Am 23.05.2013 08:46, schrieb Vincent van Ravesteijn:


Your example is not very good. What you describe in the example can be done 
perfectly with what
Jurgen proposed.


Then I misunderstood it.


For the reason that in many cases one or a few floats needs to have another 
alignment than all
other floats, my setting does not change existing floats.


This is not a valid reason. Jurgen's options changes existing floats, but only 
those that have the
"default" alignment. If you've manually changed the alignment to be left 
aligned, the float will not
be touched. So, this is not a justification for a setting that only influences 
new floats.


Ah, OK that is then fine with me.


I really do not want an option that says how new floats are aligned.


But that is exactly what people often requested.


I do not expect this to be a
property of the document. I have explained before why. If you do not agree, 
then discuss our
arguments. Of course, for every possible workflow, one can think of an example 
that will work
perfectly.


OK, then we put this option to the preferences if you agree.

regards Uwe

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Vincent van Ravesteijn]

Op 23-5-2013 2:15, Uwe Stöhr schreef:

Am 22.05.2013 07:38, schrieb Vincent van Ravesteijn:

The setting is somewhat between the the document settings and the 
preferences. The idea is to
change only the way NEW floats are inserted. Existing floats will 
not be changed by this setting.


If you would have read what I and Jurgen wrote before, this is 
exactly what we do NOT want.


I read his post carefully. I think I made it clear with my example why 
I don't agree with you here and why Ithink that 2 different features 
are needed. What do you think is wrong in my example?




Your example is not very good. What you describe in the example can be 
done perfectly with what Jurgen proposed.


For the reason that in many cases one or a few floats needs to have 
another alignment than all other floats, my setting does not change 
existing floats. 


This is not a valid reason. Jurgen's options changes existing floats, 
but only those that have the default alignment. If you've manually 
changed the alignment to be left aligned, the float will not be touched. 
So, this is not a justification for a setting that only influences new 
floats.


I really do not want an option that says how new floats are aligned. I 
do not expect this to be a property of the document. I have explained 
before why. If you do not agree, then discuss our arguments. Of course, 
for every possible workflow, one can think of an example that will work 
perfectly.


Vincent

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Guenter Milde]

On 2013-05-23, Vincent van Ravesteijn wrote:
 Op 23-5-2013 2:15, Uwe Stöhr schreef:
 Am 22.05.2013 07:38, schrieb Vincent van Ravesteijn:

...

 For the reason that in many cases one or a few floats needs to have 
 another alignment than all other floats, my setting does not change 
 existing floats. 

 This is not a valid reason. Jurgen's options changes existing floats, 
 but only those that have the default alignment. If you've manually 
 changed the alignment to be left aligned, the float will not be touched. 

I also prefer one configuration setting changing the default alignment,
independent of the age of floats.

Günter

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Vincent van Ravesteijn]

Op 23-5-2013 2:15, Uwe Stöhr schreef:

Am 22.05.2013 07:38, schrieb Vincent van Ravesteijn:

The setting is somewhat between the the document settings and the 
preferences. The idea is to
change only the way NEW floats are inserted. Existing floats will 
not be changed by this setting.


If you would have read what I and Jurgen wrote before, this is 
exactly what we do NOT want.


I read his post carefully. I think I made it clear with my example why 
I don't agree with you here and why Ithink that 2 different features 
are needed. What do you think is wrong in my example?




Your example is not very good. What you describe in the example can be 
done perfectly with what Jurgen proposed.


For the reason that in many cases one or a few floats needs to have 
another alignment than all other floats, my setting does not change 
existing floats. 


This is not a valid reason. Jurgen's options changes existing floats, 
but only those that have the "default" alignment. If you've manually 
changed the alignment to be left aligned, the float will not be touched. 
So, this is not a justification for a setting that only influences new 
floats.


I really do not want an option that says how new floats are aligned. I 
do not expect this to be a property of the document. I have explained 
before why. If you do not agree, then discuss our arguments. Of course, 
for every possible workflow, one can think of an example that will work 
perfectly.


Vincent

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Guenter Milde]

On 2013-05-23, Vincent van Ravesteijn wrote:
> Op 23-5-2013 2:15, Uwe Stöhr schreef:
>> Am 22.05.2013 07:38, schrieb Vincent van Ravesteijn:

...

>> For the reason that in many cases one or a few floats needs to have 
>> another alignment than all other floats, my setting does not change 
>> existing floats. 

> This is not a valid reason. Jurgen's options changes existing floats, 
> but only those that have the "default" alignment. If you've manually 
> changed the alignment to be left aligned, the float will not be touched. 

I also prefer one configuration setting changing the "default" alignment,
independent of the "age" of floats.

Günter

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Uwe Stöhr]

Am 22.05.2013 07:38, schrieb Vincent van Ravesteijn:


The setting is somewhat between the the document settings and the preferences. 
The idea is to
change only the way NEW floats are inserted. Existing floats will not be 
changed by this setting.


If you would have read what I and Jurgen wrote before, this is exactly what we 
do NOT want.


I read his post carefully. I think I made it clear with my example why I don't agree with you here 
and why Ithink that 2 different features are needed. What do you think is wrong in my example?


regards Uwe

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Uwe Stöhr]

Am 22.05.2013 07:38, schrieb Vincent van Ravesteijn:


The setting is somewhat between the the document settings and the preferences. 
The idea is to
change only the way NEW floats are inserted. Existing floats will not be 
changed by this setting.


If you would have read what I and Jurgen wrote before, this is exactly what we 
do NOT want.


I read his post carefully. I think I made it clear with my example why I don't agree with you here 
and why Ithink that 2 different features are needed. What do you think is wrong in my example?


regards Uwe

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Uwe Stöhr]

Am 17.05.2013 10:24, schrieb Jürgen Spitzmüller:


Opinions, further proposals?


I'm fine with it as long as
a.) the default is what the classes does (i.e., always center content is an
opt-in, not an opt-out)


Sure. We need a layout tag to tell what the class default is.

To clarify the concept of my idea:

The setting is somewhat between the the document settings and the preferences. The idea is to change 
only the way NEW floats are inserted. Existing floats will not be changed by this setting.


Take for example the case that you have to write an internal research report today. You want to have 
all floats containing only one image centered. So you set this in my setting and every new float is 
is inserted with a centered image. You have 15 floats but one should be left-aligned (because it 
contains e.g. subfigures). So you can change the alignment of that single float as usual. If you 
insert afterwards new floats, you still get the desired centered floats.
Tomorrow you will have to continue to write a journal article. This class required to have all 
floats right-aligned. So you set this in my setting ans start writing. For one float you might have 
to align the content using an hfill so you can change the alignment as usual.


For the reason of the need to write with different document classes, the setting should the 
document-dependent.
For the reason that in many cases one or a few floats needs to have another alignment than all other 
floats, my setting does not change existing floats.


There can be another option where you can change the alignment for _all_ floats in your document as 
you proposed. Such a setting is useful, but both features, my proposed and your proposed should be 
separated.



For tabulars and algorithm floats,font size would be a further useful option.


Yes, the plan was that you can also specify a default size for the image/table in the float and the 
caption position too.


regards Uwe

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Vincent van Ravesteijn]

Op 22-5-2013 1:40, Uwe Stöhr schreef:

Am 17.05.2013 10:24, schrieb Jürgen Spitzmüller:


Opinions, further proposals?


I'm fine with it as long as
a.) the default is what the classes does (i.e., always center 
content is an

opt-in, not an opt-out)


Sure. We need a layout tag to tell what the class default is.

To clarify the concept of my idea:

The setting is somewhat between the the document settings and the 
preferences. The idea is to change only the way NEW floats are 
inserted. Existing floats will not be changed by this setting.


If you would have read what I and Jurgen wrote before, this is exactly 
what we do NOT want.


Vincent

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Uwe Stöhr]

Am 17.05.2013 10:24, schrieb Jürgen Spitzmüller:


Opinions, further proposals?


I'm fine with it as long as
a.) the default is what the classes does (i.e., "always center content" is an
opt-in, not an opt-out)


Sure. We need a layout tag to tell what the class default is.

To clarify the concept of my idea:

The setting is somewhat between the the document settings and the preferences. The idea is to change 
only the way NEW floats are inserted. Existing floats will not be changed by this setting.


Take for example the case that you have to write an internal research report today. You want to have 
all floats containing only one image centered. So you set this in my setting and every new float is 
is inserted with a centered image. You have 15 floats but one should be left-aligned (because it 
contains e.g. subfigures). So you can change the alignment of that single float as usual. If you 
insert afterwards new floats, you still get the desired centered floats.
Tomorrow you will have to continue to write a journal article. This class required to have all 
floats right-aligned. So you set this in my setting ans start writing. For one float you might have 
to align the content using an hfill so you can change the alignment as usual.


For the reason of the need to write with different document classes, the setting should the 
document-dependent.
For the reason that in many cases one or a few floats needs to have another alignment than all other 
floats, my setting does not change existing floats.


There can be another option where you can change the alignment for _all_ floats in your document as 
you proposed. Such a setting is useful, but both features, my proposed and your proposed should be 
separated.



For tabulars and algorithm floats,font size would be a further useful option.


Yes, the plan was that you can also specify a default size for the image/table in the float and the 
caption position too.


regards Uwe

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Vincent van Ravesteijn]

Op 22-5-2013 1:40, Uwe Stöhr schreef:

Am 17.05.2013 10:24, schrieb Jürgen Spitzmüller:


Opinions, further proposals?


I'm fine with it as long as
a.) the default is what the classes does (i.e., "always center 
content" is an

opt-in, not an opt-out)


Sure. We need a layout tag to tell what the class default is.

To clarify the concept of my idea:

The setting is somewhat between the the document settings and the 
preferences. The idea is to change only the way NEW floats are 
inserted. Existing floats will not be changed by this setting.


If you would have read what I and Jurgen wrote before, this is exactly 
what we do NOT want.


Vincent

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Vincent van Ravesteijn wrote:
  Vincent van Ravesteijn wrote:
  Hmm.. A document setting that doesn't say anything about the document,
  but just how LyX interacts with it.
  
  Huh? What about font sizes, margins, line height and all this stuff?
 
 Huh ? If I change the font size, the margin, or the line height, the 
 document will look different. Uwe was talking about a setting that only 
 affects _new_ floats, which means that the new floats will probably look 
 different as the old ones.
 
 I just want it to be globally settable and not hardcoded for each float, 
 just as you said.

I understood that Uwe wants this as well (a setting that affects all floats, 
existing and new), therefore the setting would affect the look of documents.

Jürgen

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Liviu Andronic wrote:
 Jürgen is much more authoritative on matters LaTeX than I am, but I
 would heartily advise against that. This is the slippery slope that
 Scientific WorkPlace had taken, one of the reasons users find
 objectionable to work in SWP (i.e., a plethora of SWP-defined macros
 in the preamble) and to collaborate with other LaTeX authors.

It is completely normal in LaTeX to use your own macros for recurrent tasks. 
That is actually one of LaTeX's strengths (after all, LaTeX itself is nothing 
but a macro collection). Doing things (like centering floats) repeatedly 
without using macros is actually very non-LaTeX-like.

 It was one thing to have \lyxframe{} for Beamer presentations (you
 don't need to submit that to a journal), but it's a completely
 different thing to have it in pure article documents. LaTeX
 collaborators would most likely not appreciate having obscure macros
 in their documents. And I would not be surprised if some journals
 refused papers containing funny macro definitions.

I would be surprised if they did. OTOH, if they do, they most probably do not 
allow you to alter float placement (away from their class) anyway, and then 
those macros will not be used at all.

 As far as I'm concerned, solutions like \lyxtablesettings or
 \lyxfiguresettings are a big no-go: The closer we stick to default
 LaTeX behaviour and the more transparent we are (the LyX mantra),
 the better chances we have to attract LaTeX users (and avoid losing
 current users). We don't want to become another obscure SWP-like
 solution. And remember the long and heated debates on default font
 selections that we had, and what we chose: Do nothing, educate users,
 and leave defaults to LaTeX?

I don't understand why you rate

\begin{figure}
\begin{centering}
...
\end{centering}
\end{figure}
...
\begin{figure}
\begin{centering}
...
\end{centering}
\end{figure}

more default LaTeX than

\providecommand*\lyxfiguresetup{\centering}

\begin{figure}
\lyxfiguresetup
...
\end{figure}
...
\begin{figure}
\lyxfiguresetup
...
\end{figure}

It is not.

If it's the lyx prefix disturbing you, we can also call the thing 
\figuretemplate (at the cost of probable name clashes).

 I may state the obvious here, but why not solve this in a very simple
 UI-interaction way. Most current users of LyX who need centered
 content within floats will usually do the following:
 - insert a float
 - paragraph settings  centered

Now this is very un-LaTeX-like. This is how you do it in Word. As said on 
trac, if you do this and your publisher tells you: Please do not center 
figures, you have to go through all figure floats in your document and change 
the paragraph setting (I have, as a measure, 230 figure floats in my recent 
book).

 Why not assist them in that? Have an option somewhere Use centered
 paragraph in floats by default (opt-in) that, if checked, would
 simply do command-sequence for the two actions above. Problem solved.

No, problem generated. See above.

 You will object that this strays away from the concept of the
 semantic markup idea. But as it is LyX users do not use this concept
 in the context of floats.

I do.

 I don't see why rendering more
 straightforward what they were already doing be worse? And again,
 while I appreciate the concept of semantic markup, I believe it can
 quickly get out of hands with more complicated constructs (as in this
 case).

Well, writing workflows might differ, but I know many writters who write their 
texts and in the end, deal with formatting. In the case of monographs (from 
theses), this is often unavoidable, because you get a publisher usually after 
your thesis is written.

Now how are you supposed to know how floats should be aligned in advance of 
this? You have to go through the whole document and change any individual 
float. And then it might happen (as it happened to me just now) that the 
publisher tells you:Oh, sorry, we just set up a new stylesheet for this 
series, all things are now no more centered, but ragged right. I can assure 
you that you do not call physical float alignment anymore straightforward  
at least after the second traversal through the document.

And a third use case: I usually generate lecture handouts and presentations 
from the same document, via beamer and a beamer-article portmanteau master. I 
want to have floats ragged right in the presentation, but centered in the 
handout. This is impossible with local, physical alignment. With a float 
template macro, it is just a breeze.

 Another objection is that A big disadvantage of this idea is that it
 is static.  And I agree; but as discussed above, I see more value in
 adopting a simple, straightforward UI solution (even if imperfect) or
 in adopting no solution at all (and letting users do their centering
 and copy/pasting as before), rather than putting complex LaTeX
 structures in (what outsiders will doubtless perceive as) obscure
 LyX-specific macros.

I really do not see what is complex  at

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Vincent van Ravesteijn wrote:
> > Vincent van Ravesteijn wrote:
> >> Hmm.. A document setting that doesn't say anything about the document,
> >> but just how LyX interacts with it.
> > 
> > Huh? What about font sizes, margins, line height and all this stuff?
> 
> Huh ? If I change the font size, the margin, or the line height, the 
> document will look different. Uwe was talking about a setting that only 
> affects _new_ floats, which means that the new floats will probably look 
> different as the old ones.
> 
> I just want it to be globally settable and not hardcoded for each float, 
> just as you said.

I understood that Uwe wants this as well (a setting that affects all floats, 
existing and new), therefore the setting would affect the look of documents.

Jürgen

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Liviu Andronic wrote:
> Jürgen is much more authoritative on matters LaTeX than I am, but I
> would heartily advise against that. This is the slippery slope that
> Scientific WorkPlace had taken, one of the reasons users find
> objectionable to work in SWP (i.e., a plethora of SWP-defined macros
> in the preamble) and to collaborate with other LaTeX authors.

It is completely normal in LaTeX to use your own macros for recurrent tasks. 
That is actually one of LaTeX's strengths (after all, LaTeX itself is nothing 
but a macro collection). Doing things (like centering floats) repeatedly 
without using macros is actually very non-LaTeX-like.

> It was one thing to have \lyxframe{} for Beamer presentations (you
> don't need to submit that to a journal), but it's a completely
> different thing to have it in "pure" article documents. LaTeX
> collaborators would most likely not appreciate having "obscure" macros
> in their documents. And I would not be surprised if some journals
> refused papers containing funny macro definitions.

I would be surprised if they did. OTOH, if they do, they most probably do not 
allow you to alter float placement (away from their class) anyway, and then 
those macros will not be used at all.

> As far as I'm concerned, solutions like \lyxtablesettings or
> \lyxfiguresettings are a big no-go: The closer we stick to default
> LaTeX behaviour and the more transparent we are (the LyX "mantra"),
> the better chances we have to attract LaTeX users (and avoid losing
> current users). We don't want to become another obscure SWP-like
> solution. And remember the long and heated debates on default font
> selections that we had, and what we chose: Do nothing, educate users,
> and leave defaults to LaTeX?

I don't understand why you rate

\begin{figure}
\begin{centering}
...
\end{centering}
\end{figure}
...
\begin{figure}
\begin{centering}
...
\end{centering}
\end{figure}

more "default" LaTeX than

\providecommand*\lyxfiguresetup{\centering}

\begin{figure}
\lyxfiguresetup
...
\end{figure}
...
\begin{figure}
\lyxfiguresetup
...
\end{figure}

It is not.

If it's the "lyx" prefix disturbing you, we can also call the thing 
\figuretemplate (at the cost of probable name clashes).

> I may state the obvious here, but why not solve this in a very simple
> UI-interaction way. Most current users of LyX who need centered
> content within floats will usually do the following:
> - insert a float
> - paragraph settings > centered

Now this is very un-LaTeX-like. This is how you do it in Word. As said on 
trac, if you do this and your publisher tells you: "Please do not center 
figures", you have to go through all figure floats in your document and change 
the paragraph setting (I have, as a measure, 230 figure floats in my recent 
book).

> Why not assist them in that? Have an option somewhere "Use centered
> paragraph in floats by default" (opt-in) that, if checked, would
> simply do command-sequence for the two actions above. Problem solved.

No, problem generated. See above.

> You will object that this strays away from the concept of the
> "semantic" markup idea. But as it is LyX users do not use this concept
> in the context of floats.

I do.

> I don't see why rendering more
> straightforward what they were already doing be worse? And again,
> while I appreciate the concept of "semantic" markup, I believe it can
> quickly get out of hands with more complicated constructs (as in this
> case).

Well, writing workflows might differ, but I know many writters who write their 
texts and in the end, deal with formatting. In the case of monographs (from 
theses), this is often unavoidable, because you get a publisher usually after 
your thesis is written.

Now how are you supposed to know how floats should be aligned in advance of 
this? You have to go through the whole document and change any individual 
float. And then it might happen (as it happened to me just now) that the 
publisher tells you:Oh, sorry, we just set up a new stylesheet for this 
series, all things are now no more centered, but ragged right. I can assure 
you that you do not call physical float alignment anymore "straightforward"  
at least after the second traversal through the document.

And a third use case: I usually generate lecture handouts and presentations 
from the same document, via beamer and a beamer-article portmanteau master. I 
want to have floats ragged right in the presentation, but centered in the 
handout. This is impossible with local, physical alignment. With a float 
template macro, it is just a breeze.

> Another objection is that "A big disadvantage of this idea is that it
> is static. " And I agree; but as discussed above, I see more value in
> adopting a simple, straightforward UI solution (even if imperfect) or
> in adopting no solution at all (and letting users do their centering
> and copy/pasting as before), rather than putting complex LaTeX
> structures in (what outsiders will doubtless perceive as) 

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Uwe Stöhr wrote:
 Dear colleagues,
 
 we often discussed in the past about the default paragraph alignment for new
 floats. We had the discussion in Milano as well because this is one of the
 most annoying things for many users. We voted to do something. The question
 is now how. Here is my proposal:
 
 - we add a document-wide setting where th user can set how he wants to have
 new floats - this is a document setting not a LyX preference because
 different documents may require different settings.
 - the settings can be made for table and figure floats independently
 - the user can set the following:
* is the caption below the image/table or above (For example the common
 typesetting rule is that figure captions are below while table captions are
 above. Getting this right for every float is currently a pain.)
* the alignment of the paragraph in new floats
 
 Opinions, further proposals?

I'm fine with it as long as
a.) the default is what the classes does (i.e., always center content is an 
opt-in, not an opt-out)
b.) this stuff is not physically hardcoded, but globally settable (for 
instance, as I have proposed, via \lyxtablesettings and \lyxfiguresettings 
macros)

For tabulars and algorithm floats,font size would be a further useful option.

Jürgen

 thanks and regards
 Uwe

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Vincent van Ravesteijn wrote:
 Hmm.. A document setting that doesn't say anything about the document,
 but just how LyX interacts with it. 

Huh? What about font sizes, margins, line height and all this stuff?

 That doesn't feel right. I think the
 change tracking setting is already annoying enough. Why do you think
 different documents require different settings ? Either you like them
 centered, or not. 

Have you ever dealt with publishers?

 Maybe this could be related to different document
 classes, but then the document classes should dictate what the default
 alignment is.

They should, but then this setting should still be tweakable in the document 
settings, linke this is the case for font sizes, line height etc.

Jürgen

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Vincent van Ravesteijn]

Op 17-5-2013 10:28, Jürgen Spitzmüller schreef:

Vincent van Ravesteijn wrote:

Hmm.. A document setting that doesn't say anything about the document,
but just how LyX interacts with it.

Huh? What about font sizes, margins, line height and all this stuff?
Huh ? If I change the font size, the margin, or the line height, the 
document will look different. Uwe was talking about a setting that only 
affects _new_ floats, which means that the new floats will probably look 
different as the old ones.


I just want it to be globally settable and not hardcoded for each float, 
just as you said.


Vincent

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Liviu Andronic]

On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 11:00 PM, Vincent van Ravesteijn v...@lyx.org wrote:
 I'm afraid this will be too late for 2.1. This will probably light up some
 discussion, and it will take time to figure out what we're going to do
 exactly.

Agreed. I don't think there is anything near a consensus on whether or
how to proceed. And 2.1 looms near.

Liviu

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Liviu Andronic]

On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 10:24 AM, Jürgen Spitzmüller sp...@lyx.org wrote:
 a.) the default is what the classes does (i.e., always center content is an
 opt-in, not an opt-out)

Yes.


 b.) this stuff is not physically hardcoded, but globally settable (for
 instance, as I have proposed, via \lyxtablesettings and \lyxfiguresettings
 macros)

Jürgen is much more authoritative on matters LaTeX than I am, but I
would heartily advise against that. This is the slippery slope that
Scientific WorkPlace had taken, one of the reasons users find
objectionable to work in SWP (i.e., a plethora of SWP-defined macros
in the preamble) and to collaborate with other LaTeX authors.

It was one thing to have \lyxframe{} for Beamer presentations (you
don't need to submit that to a journal), but it's a completely
different thing to have it in pure article documents. LaTeX
collaborators would most likely not appreciate having obscure macros
in their documents. And I would not be surprised if some journals
refused papers containing funny macro definitions.

As far as I'm concerned, solutions like \lyxtablesettings or
\lyxfiguresettings are a big no-go: The closer we stick to default
LaTeX behaviour and the more transparent we are (the LyX mantra),
the better chances we have to attract LaTeX users (and avoid losing
current users). We don't want to become another obscure SWP-like
solution. And remember the long and heated debates on default font
selections that we had, and what we chose: Do nothing, educate users,
and leave defaults to LaTeX?


I may state the obvious here, but why not solve this in a very simple
UI-interaction way. Most current users of LyX who need centered
content within floats will usually do the following:
- insert a float
- paragraph settings  centered

Why not assist them in that? Have an option somewhere Use centered
paragraph in floats by default (opt-in) that, if checked, would
simply do command-sequence for the two actions above. Problem solved.

You will object that this strays away from the concept of the
semantic markup idea. But as it is LyX users do not use this concept
in the context of floats. I don't see why rendering more
straightforward what they were already doing be worse? And again,
while I appreciate the concept of semantic markup, I believe it can
quickly get out of hands with more complicated constructs (as in this
case).

Another objection is that A big disadvantage of this idea is that it
is static.  And I agree; but as discussed above, I see more value in
adopting a simple, straightforward UI solution (even if imperfect) or
in adopting no solution at all (and letting users do their centering
and copy/pasting as before), rather than putting complex LaTeX
structures in (what outsiders will doubtless perceive as) obscure
LyX-specific macros.

Anyways, my 00.02€,
Liviu


 For tabulars and algorithm floats,font size would be a further useful option.

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Uwe Stöhr wrote:
> Dear colleagues,
> 
> we often discussed in the past about the default paragraph alignment for new
> floats. We had the discussion in Milano as well because this is one of the
> most annoying things for many users. We voted to do something. The question
> is now how. Here is my proposal:
> 
> - we add a document-wide setting where th user can set how he wants to have
> new floats - this is a document setting not a LyX preference because
> different documents may require different settings.
> - the settings can be made for table and figure floats independently
> - the user can set the following:
>* is the caption below the image/table or above (For example the common
> typesetting rule is that figure captions are below while table captions are
> above. Getting this right for every float is currently a pain.)
>* the alignment of the paragraph in new floats
> 
> Opinions, further proposals?

I'm fine with it as long as
a.) the default is what the classes does (i.e., "always center content" is an 
opt-in, not an opt-out)
b.) this stuff is not physically hardcoded, but globally settable (for 
instance, as I have proposed, via \lyxtablesettings and \lyxfiguresettings 
macros)

For tabulars and algorithm floats,font size would be a further useful option.

Jürgen

> thanks and regards
> Uwe

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Jürgen Spitzmüller]

Vincent van Ravesteijn wrote:
> Hmm.. A document setting that doesn't say anything about the document,
> but just how LyX interacts with it. 

Huh? What about font sizes, margins, line height and all this stuff?

> That doesn't feel right. I think the
> change tracking setting is already annoying enough. Why do you think
> different documents require different settings ? Either you like them
> centered, or not. 

Have you ever dealt with publishers?

> Maybe this could be related to different document
> classes, but then the document classes should dictate what the default
> alignment is.

They should, but then this setting should still be tweakable in the document 
settings, linke this is the case for font sizes, line height etc.

Jürgen

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Vincent van Ravesteijn]

Op 17-5-2013 10:28, Jürgen Spitzmüller schreef:

Vincent van Ravesteijn wrote:

Hmm.. A document setting that doesn't say anything about the document,
but just how LyX interacts with it.

Huh? What about font sizes, margins, line height and all this stuff?
Huh ? If I change the font size, the margin, or the line height, the 
document will look different. Uwe was talking about a setting that only 
affects _new_ floats, which means that the new floats will probably look 
different as the old ones.


I just want it to be globally settable and not hardcoded for each float, 
just as you said.


Vincent

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Liviu Andronic]

On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 11:00 PM, Vincent van Ravesteijn  wrote:
> I'm afraid this will be too late for 2.1. This will probably light up some
> discussion, and it will take time to figure out what we're going to do
> exactly.
>
Agreed. I don't think there is anything near a consensus on whether or
how to proceed. And 2.1 looms near.

Liviu

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Liviu Andronic]

On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 10:24 AM, Jürgen Spitzmüller  wrote:
> a.) the default is what the classes does (i.e., "always center content" is an
> opt-in, not an opt-out)
>
Yes.


> b.) this stuff is not physically hardcoded, but globally settable (for
> instance, as I have proposed, via \lyxtablesettings and \lyxfiguresettings
> macros)
>
Jürgen is much more authoritative on matters LaTeX than I am, but I
would heartily advise against that. This is the slippery slope that
Scientific WorkPlace had taken, one of the reasons users find
objectionable to work in SWP (i.e., a plethora of SWP-defined macros
in the preamble) and to collaborate with other LaTeX authors.

It was one thing to have \lyxframe{} for Beamer presentations (you
don't need to submit that to a journal), but it's a completely
different thing to have it in "pure" article documents. LaTeX
collaborators would most likely not appreciate having "obscure" macros
in their documents. And I would not be surprised if some journals
refused papers containing funny macro definitions.

As far as I'm concerned, solutions like \lyxtablesettings or
\lyxfiguresettings are a big no-go: The closer we stick to default
LaTeX behaviour and the more transparent we are (the LyX "mantra"),
the better chances we have to attract LaTeX users (and avoid losing
current users). We don't want to become another obscure SWP-like
solution. And remember the long and heated debates on default font
selections that we had, and what we chose: Do nothing, educate users,
and leave defaults to LaTeX?


I may state the obvious here, but why not solve this in a very simple
UI-interaction way. Most current users of LyX who need centered
content within floats will usually do the following:
- insert a float
- paragraph settings > centered

Why not assist them in that? Have an option somewhere "Use centered
paragraph in floats by default" (opt-in) that, if checked, would
simply do command-sequence for the two actions above. Problem solved.

You will object that this strays away from the concept of the
"semantic" markup idea. But as it is LyX users do not use this concept
in the context of floats. I don't see why rendering more
straightforward what they were already doing be worse? And again,
while I appreciate the concept of "semantic" markup, I believe it can
quickly get out of hands with more complicated constructs (as in this
case).

Another objection is that "A big disadvantage of this idea is that it
is static. " And I agree; but as discussed above, I see more value in
adopting a simple, straightforward UI solution (even if imperfect) or
in adopting no solution at all (and letting users do their centering
and copy/pasting as before), rather than putting complex LaTeX
structures in (what outsiders will doubtless perceive as) obscure
LyX-specific macros.

Anyways, my 00.02€,
Liviu


> For tabulars and algorithm floats,font size would be a further useful option.
>

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Vincent van Ravesteijn]

Op 16-5-2013 22:15, Uwe Stöhr schreef:

Dear colleagues,

we often discussed in the past about the default paragraph alignment 
for new floats. We had the discussion in Milano as well because this 
is one of the most annoying things for many users. We voted to do 
something.


That's the real politics. Voting to do something, but not deciding on 
what we're going to do.



The question is now how. Here is my proposal:

- we add a document-wide setting where th user can set how he wants to 
have new floats
- this is a document setting not a LyX preference because different 
documents may require different settings.


Hmm.. A document setting that doesn't say anything about the document, 
but just how LyX interacts with it. That doesn't feel right. I think the 
change tracking setting is already annoying enough. Why do you think 
different documents require different settings ? Either you like them 
centered, or not. Maybe this could be related to different document 
classes, but then the document classes should dictate what the default 
alignment is.


  * is the caption below the image/table or above (For example the 
common typesetting rule is that figure captions are below while table 
captions are above. Getting this right for every float is currently a 
pain.)

Any idea how you're going to enforce this setting in LyX ?


  * the alignment of the paragraph in new floats
I'd rather see that the new floats get set a default alignment. And a 
document setting to change the default of all existing floats. I will 
probably not remember to do this every time I start a new document 
before the first float I insert.


Setting this for each and every document over and over again becomes 
just as annoying as it is now. I usually don't write 100 page documents 
anymore, so the average number of floats per document is not that big 
nowadays.




Opinions, further proposals?


I'm afraid this will be too late for 2.1. This will probably light up 
some discussion, and it will take time to figure out what we're going to 
do exactly.



Vincent

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Uwe Stöhr]

Am 16.05.2013 23:00, schrieb Vincent van Ravesteijn:


we often discussed in the past about the default paragraph alignment for new 
floats. We had the
discussion in Milano as well because this is one of the most annoying things 
for many users. We
voted to do something.


That's the real politics. Voting to do something, but not deciding on what 
we're going to do.


Jügen was not in Milano and his arguments convinced me not to do the wrong thing. And yes, that's 
what politicians do ;-).



The question is now how. Here is my proposal:

- we add a document-wide setting where th user can set how he wants to have new 
floats
- this is a document setting not a LyX preference because different documents 
may require
different settings.


Hmm.. A document setting that doesn't say anything about the document, but just 
how LyX interacts
with it. That doesn't feel right. I think the change tracking setting is 
already annoying enough.
Why do you think different documents require different settings ? Either you 
like them centered, or
not.


For a master thesis you might what to have all images inside figure floats centered, but tables 
inside table floats right-aligned (because e.g. your professor wants this). For your internship 
report, you might want to have tables _and_ figures centered. For Tufte documents you might want to 
follow the document class default and therefore not set anything explicitly.

I should have mentioned that there will be a setting to use the document class' 
default.


  * is the caption below the image/table or above (For example the common 
typesetting rule is that
figure captions are below while table captions are above. Getting this right 
for every float is
currently a pain.)

Any idea how you're going to enforce this setting in LyX ?


Currently we create floats by default with 3 paragraphs: one empty, one below it containing the 
caption and one empty below the caption. If the user wan to get the table captions above the table, 
we then simply omit the first empty paragraph.



  * the alignment of the paragraph in new floats

I'd rather see that the new floats get set a default alignment.


Of course, o forgot that in my RFC.

 And a document setting to change

the default of all existing floats. I will probably not remember to do this 
every time I start a new
document before the first float I insert.


Fine with me.


Setting this for each and every document over and over again becomes just as 
annoying as it is now.


No, because you can save your document settings as default for new documents.


Opinions, further proposals?


I'm afraid this will be too late for 2.1. This will probably light up some 
discussion, and it will
take time to figure out what we're going to do exactly.


Sure this is nothing for LyX 2.1 but I promised to bring this to the list. I will definitively do 
something for LyX 2.1 and hope to get help. I also hope that we don't have to wait every time 2 
years for new releases!


regards Uwe

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Vincent van Ravesteijn]

Op 16-5-2013 22:15, Uwe Stöhr schreef:

Dear colleagues,

we often discussed in the past about the default paragraph alignment 
for new floats. We had the discussion in Milano as well because this 
is one of the most annoying things for many users. We voted to do 
something.


That's the real politics. Voting to do something, but not deciding on 
what we're going to do.



The question is now how. Here is my proposal:

- we add a document-wide setting where th user can set how he wants to 
have new floats
- this is a document setting not a LyX preference because different 
documents may require different settings.


Hmm.. A document setting that doesn't say anything about the document, 
but just how LyX interacts with it. That doesn't feel right. I think the 
change tracking setting is already annoying enough. Why do you think 
different documents require different settings ? Either you like them 
centered, or not. Maybe this could be related to different document 
classes, but then the document classes should dictate what the default 
alignment is.


  * is the caption below the image/table or above (For example the 
common typesetting rule is that figure captions are below while table 
captions are above. Getting this right for every float is currently a 
pain.)

Any idea how you're going to enforce this setting in LyX ?


  * the alignment of the paragraph in new floats
I'd rather see that the new floats get set a "default alignment". And a 
document setting to change the default of all existing floats. I will 
probably not remember to do this every time I start a new document 
before the first float I insert.


Setting this for each and every document over and over again becomes 
just as annoying as it is now. I usually don't write 100 page documents 
anymore, so the average number of floats per document is not that big 
nowadays.




Opinions, further proposals?


I'm afraid this will be too late for 2.1. This will probably light up 
some discussion, and it will take time to figure out what we're going to 
do exactly.



Vincent

Re: RFC - offer users to set preferred float paragraph style

[Uwe Stöhr]

Am 16.05.2013 23:00, schrieb Vincent van Ravesteijn:


we often discussed in the past about the default paragraph alignment for new 
floats. We had the
discussion in Milano as well because this is one of the most annoying things 
for many users. We
voted to do something.


That's the real politics. Voting to do something, but not deciding on what 
we're going to do.


Jügen was not in Milano and his arguments convinced me not to do the wrong thing. And yes, that's 
what politicians do ;-).



The question is now how. Here is my proposal:

- we add a document-wide setting where th user can set how he wants to have new 
floats
- this is a document setting not a LyX preference because different documents 
may require
different settings.


Hmm.. A document setting that doesn't say anything about the document, but just 
how LyX interacts
with it. That doesn't feel right. I think the change tracking setting is 
already annoying enough.
Why do you think different documents require different settings ? Either you 
like them centered, or
not.


For a master thesis you might what to have all images inside figure floats centered, but tables 
inside table floats right-aligned (because e.g. your professor wants this). For your internship 
report, you might want to have tables _and_ figures centered. For Tufte documents you might want to 
follow the document class default and therefore not set anything explicitly.

I should have mentioned that there will be a setting to use the document class' 
default.


  * is the caption below the image/table or above (For example the common 
typesetting rule is that
figure captions are below while table captions are above. Getting this right 
for every float is
currently a pain.)

Any idea how you're going to enforce this setting in LyX ?


Currently we create floats by default with 3 paragraphs: one empty, one below it containing the 
caption and one empty below the caption. If the user wan to get the table captions above the table, 
we then simply omit the first empty paragraph.



  * the alignment of the paragraph in new floats

I'd rather see that the new floats get set a "default alignment".


Of course, o forgot that in my RFC.

 And a document setting to change

the default of all existing floats. I will probably not remember to do this 
every time I start a new
document before the first float I insert.


Fine with me.


Setting this for each and every document over and over again becomes just as 
annoying as it is now.


No, because you can save your document settings as default for new documents.


Opinions, further proposals?


I'm afraid this will be too late for 2.1. This will probably light up some 
discussion, and it will
take time to figure out what we're going to do exactly.


Sure this is nothing for LyX 2.1 but I promised to bring this to the list. I will definitively do 
something for LyX 2.1 and hope to get help. I also hope that we don't have to wait every time 2 
years for new releases!


regards Uwe