Re: some feedback on installing lyx1.5rc1 on windows
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I assume you're rather computer savvy. Would you say above average (for a Windows user)? Yes, I think I could say above average. I'm able to install windows and have already tried ubuntu, puppy linux and some others. I'm using texlive under ubuntu and last tried miktex 2.4 on win98. I find the tex package management in miktex awesome, which allows to just install a basic system and installs on the fly any needed package upon compiling the tex file. That's some long needed feature under linux. This obviously needs to be clarfied. Did you look at any kind of documentation or description of the installer before chosing the bundled version? If so, would you mind looking again and say if you think there's an obvious place to put this 'caveat'? (I could add such an information, but I'd like to add it in a place where the user actually looks... :-) I didn't. From the news entry on the website, I went straight to the ftp site (ftp://ftp.devel.lyx.org/pub/lyx/pre/) where the binaries are located. There are just 2 windows installers to pick from for 1.5rc1: LyX-1.5.0rc1-Installer-bundle.exe LyX-1.5.0rc1-Installer.exe I picked the bundle, as I wanted to have one big package to handle everything at once and I assumed that one would do the trick. As for a caveat, one could write a readme file write on the ftp-site explaining the files. I didn't landed on the wiki (http://wiki.lyx.org/Windows/Windows) by means of the download page (http://www.lyx.org/download/), though. Regarding the bundle, the wiki page states: This version includes all components and is intended to install LyX on multiple computers. Here one could be more explicit, explaining that aspell dictionaries and other miktex packages will still be (automatically) grabbed and installed from the internet during the installation. A few lines explaining why the alternative installer is different from the standard installer would be nice, too. The reason for why MikTeX wants/needs to go online should probably be added and explained. I don't know why, but others will probably tell us. I think now I know. I think that *the* basic miktex installation is installed with the standard installer. LyX doesn't need any extra packages to run (in my case, though, because of my choice of german and DINA4, it does need koma script to compile the documents), but LyX comes also with many templates for all sorts of documents (which is great!). For compiling the documents written in those templates some latex document class files are needed. Miktex knew this upon installation and tried to get them right away. For the record, every time I run LyX after a reboot miktex again asks for permission to download and install the missing packages. I also was wrong in my estimate: they are ~50. All the dictionary installers sum up to around 30-60 MB, so at worst it would almost double the size. That's a lot of MBs ;-). But still, from my point of view, it does make sense to provide an installer with everything on it, including spellchecking for the officially supported languages and sty-packages for the officially supported templates. Maybe you could not just include the basic miktex installer in your lyx installer, but a modified installer which already has the class packages that lyx will need? Uwe, does your complete installer contain dictionaries as well? If that's the case, Rafael might simply have been better off using that installer... Perhaps that's even the case with the MikTeX packages, I don't know. Rafael, did you look at the alternative installer? I didn't. See above. Why this is needed in order to just run lyx escapes my understanding. What's not obvious is that these aren't needed. I believe it's ok for MikTeX to fail to install these, and LyX will still run. Please correct me if this wasn't the case for you. LyX did run. See above. Thanks for answering. Best regards Rafael
Re: some feedback on installing lyx1.5rc1 on windows
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote: I assume you're rather computer savvy. Would you say above average (for a Windows user)? Yes, I think I could say above average. I'm able to install windows and have already tried ubuntu, puppy linux and some others. I'm using texlive under ubuntu and last tried miktex 2.4 on win98. I find the tex package management in miktex awesome, which allows to just install a basic system and installs on the fly any needed package upon compiling the tex file. That's some long needed feature under linux. This obviously needs to be clarfied. Did you look at any kind of documentation or description of the installer before chosing the bundled version? If so, would you mind looking again and say if you think there's an obvious place to put this 'caveat'? (I could add such an information, but I'd like to add it in a place where the user actually looks... :-) I didn't. From the news entry on the website, I went straight to the ftp site (ftp://ftp.devel.lyx.org/pub/lyx/pre/) where the binaries are located. There are just 2 windows installers to pick from for 1.5rc1: LyX-1.5.0rc1-Installer-bundle.exe LyX-1.5.0rc1-Installer.exe I picked the bundle, as I wanted to have one big package to handle everything at once and I assumed that one would do the trick. As for a caveat, one could write a readme file write on the ftp-site explaining the files. I didn't landed on the wiki (http://wiki.lyx.org/Windows/Windows) by means of the download page (http://www.lyx.org/download/), though. Regarding the bundle, the wiki page states: "This version includes all components and is intended to install LyX on multiple computers." Here one could be more explicit, explaining that aspell dictionaries and other miktex packages will still be (automatically) grabbed and installed from the internet during the installation. A few lines explaining why the alternative installer is different from the standard installer would be nice, too. The reason for why MikTeX wants/needs to go online should probably be added and explained. I don't know why, but others will probably tell us. I think now I know. I think that *the* basic miktex installation is installed with the standard installer. LyX doesn't need any extra packages to run (in my case, though, because of my choice of german and DINA4, it does need koma script to compile the documents), but LyX comes also with many templates for all sorts of documents (which is great!). For compiling the documents written in those templates some latex document class files are needed. Miktex knew this upon installation and tried to get them right away. For the record, every time I run LyX after a reboot miktex again asks for permission to download and install the missing packages. I also was wrong in my estimate: they are ~50. All the dictionary installers sum up to around 30-60 MB, so at worst it would almost double the size. That's a lot of MBs ;-). But still, from my point of view, it does make sense to provide an installer with everything on it, including spellchecking for the officially supported languages and sty-packages for the officially supported templates. Maybe you could not just include the basic miktex installer in your lyx installer, but a modified installer which already has the class packages that lyx will need? Uwe, does your complete installer contain dictionaries as well? If that's the case, Rafael might simply have been better off using that installer... Perhaps that's even the case with the MikTeX packages, I don't know. Rafael, did you look at the "alternative" installer? I didn't. See above. > Why this is needed in order to just run lyx escapes my > understanding. What's not obvious is that these aren't needed. I believe it's ok for MikTeX to fail to install these, and LyX will still run. Please correct me if this wasn't the case for you. LyX did run. See above. Thanks for answering. Best regards Rafael
some feedback on installing lyx1.5rc1 on windows
Dear LyX team, I write to you as a user who wants to give some feedback on my last experience installing lyx1.5rc1 on windows from the bundle with all the dependencies. First some background: I had already tried lyx some years ago, both under windows and linux, and have been trying it once in a while since then. As my knowledge of LaTeX and the complexity of my needs grew, I found myself feeling more comfortable writing «plain» LaTeX with a text editor rather than using lyx with lots of ERT. But recently my girlfriend complained to me for the 1000th time how awful and complicated it is for her to write her university papers with word, how it is a pain to make the table of contents, to work with styles, to write the bibliography list, to set crossreferences (which she still does manually), etc. Instantly, I thought of lyx. And so I decided to give the last version of lyx a try on her winXP machine (after helping her with her TOC, that is). I knew that since some versions ago there's now an officially supported windows port of lyx. I found the announcement of the fresh rc1 for lyx 1.5 on the website and went on to download the installer. I found 2 *.exe files: an installer without and another with all dependencies. Installing: I chose the bundle on purpose, as I knew the machine on which I wanted to install lyx isn't connected to the internet. I have to praise you for your work on the installer: it has and installs everything needed (miktex, ghostscript, imagemagick, etc.) in a mostly automated manner---very well thought out. (I still have to test the uninstallation, but if everything goes well and my girlfriend is comfortable with lyx, I won't have to ;-) After installing and upon running lyx for the first time, miktex tried to install some packages from the net. Imagine my surprise, as I thought everything I would ever need for running lyx should already be there. I have 2 quirks here: 1) some packages I needed weren't in the bundle, which I would rather recommend to include; 2) miktex wanted to install some extra packages which I can't imagine I will ever need nor can imagine that lyx needs them to run. Some clarifications: Upon installation I specified I wanted lyx localized in German. Then I chose aspell dictionaries for french, spanish, english and german. That's all I did that was out of the ordinary. Dictionaries: My suggestion here is as follows: I don't know how much space in MB all the dictionaries would take, but since the bundle weighs already 75+ MB, weren't it useful to pack them all in the bundle too? Even if the bundle grows up to 100 MB, for someone who wants to install it on a machine (or on many machines) without internet connection, spellchecking is such a basic feature that it makes the extra weight worthwhile. I can imagine that many lyx users aren't native language speakers of english, so packing all dictionaries in the bundle (~20?) should prove to be useful. MikTeX: From the files that MikTeX wanted to install (~15 if I recall correctly), I only recognized 1 which should be useful or needed for me: the koma script bundle. As I mentioned before, while installing I chose to localize lyx for German. I also chose during the MikTeX installation the default paper size to be DINA4. Because of this, miktex trying to install koma script is just natural. On the other hand, MikTeX tried to install some LaTeX style files and document classes to typeset articles submited for some specific english scientific journals, such as, e.g., amsart (if I recall correctly), and others. Why this is needed in order to just run lyx escapes my understanding. Last words: As I see it, lyx is becoming «the» tool for writing scientific papers without hassle and with all the power of LaTeX, and every student out there should at least know of it existence and have tried it once. I still have 1 personal quirk, though: On linux I prefer to work under gnome or xfce. I have until now succeeded on having a kde/qt-free desktop, so installing lyx would mean installing a lot of qt-libraries just for lyx to run. I know of the xforms-version, but if I understand correctly, future versions of lyx will be qt only, isn't it? Nevertheless, I will give it another try as soon as 1.5 is packaged for ubuntu. I wish you all a great 1.5 release! Regards Rafael
Re: some feedback on installing lyx1.5rc1 on windows
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007, Rafael Maguiña wrote: First of all, thanks for giving us the feedback! I assume you're rather computer savvy. Would you say above average (for a Windows user)? Installing: I chose the bundle on purpose, as I knew the machine on which I wanted to install lyx isn't connected to the internet. I have to praise you for your work on the installer: it has and installs everything needed (miktex, ghostscript, imagemagick, etc.) in a mostly automated manner---very well thought out. (I still have to test the uninstallation, but if everything goes well and my girlfriend is comfortable with lyx, I won't have to ;-) After installing and upon running lyx for the first time, miktex tried to install some packages from the net. This has been discussed before but I'm not up to speed on the topic. I hope others will chime in with pros and cons for bundling LaTeX packages. Imagine my surprise, as I thought everything I would ever need for running lyx should already be there. This obviously needs to be clarfied. Did you look at any kind of documentation or description of the installer before chosing the bundled version? If so, would you mind looking again and say if you think there's an obvious place to put this 'caveat'? (I could add such an information, but I'd like to add it in a place where the user actually looks... :-) I have 2 quirks here: 1) some packages I needed weren't in the bundle, which I would rather recommend to include; 2) miktex wanted to install some extra packages which I can't imagine I will ever need nor can imagine that lyx needs them to run. The reason for why MikTeX wants/needs to go online should probably be added and explained. I don't know why, but others will probably tell us. Dictionaries: My suggestion here is as follows: I don't know how much space in MB all the dictionaries would take, but since the bundle weighs already 75+ MB, weren't it useful to pack them all in the bundle too? All the dictionary installers sum up to around 30-60 MB, so at worst it would almost double the size. Joost/Uwe, can you confirm that a user can manually run a dictionary installer? If this is the case, then we could see about adding instructions for the user of a bundled installer to also download the relevant dictionary installers. Another alternative might be to provide a single archive with all the installers (30-60 MB). Or possibly a single installer that installs all dictionaries that we have... It's way overkill, but maybe more convenient than running 4-5 dictionary installers manually. Uwe, does your complete installer contain dictionaries as well? If that's the case, Rafael might simply have been better off using that installer... Perhaps that's even the case with the MikTeX packages, I don't know. Rafael, did you look at the alternative installer? MikTeX: snip Why this is needed in order to just run lyx escapes my understanding. What's not obvious is that these aren't needed. I believe it's ok for MikTeX to fail to install these, and LyX will still run. Please correct me if this wasn't the case for you. just for lyx to run. I know of the xforms-version, but if I understand correctly, future versions of lyx will be qt only, isn't it? Yes, xforms is dead. I'm afraid you will have to install Qt libraries as well. Best regards, /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
Re: some feedback on installing lyx1.5rc1 on windows
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joost/Uwe, can you confirm that a user can manually run a dictionary installer? If this is the case, then we could see about adding instructions for the user of a bundled installer to also download the relevant dictionary installers. The bundled installer allows you to download dictionaries. Dictionaries can also be downloaded and installed manually. Another alternative might be to provide a single archive with all the installers (30-60 MB). Or possibly a single installer that installs all dictionaries that we have... It's way overkill, but maybe more convenient than running 4-5 dictionary installers manually. I think that's overkill. Uwe, does your complete installer contain dictionaries as well? If that's the case, Rafael might simply have been better off using that installer... Perhaps that's even the case with the MikTeX packages, I don't know. There is no installer that includes all dictionaries and MiKTeX packages. If you need to install on a computer without internet access, download the dictionaries you like and transfer them to the system along with the installer. MiKTeX handles package installation itself (we should not interfere with that). Instructions about downloading all packages is available here: http://docs.miktex.org/2.6/manual/installing.html This is however not always necessary (see below). What's not obvious is that these aren't needed. I believe it's ok for MikTeX to fail to install these, and LyX will still run. Please correct me if this wasn't the case for you. That's correct. LyX just checks whether the packages are available and MiKTeX then download them. If you download everything you will be able to use all LyX features. Basic things will work without these packages. Joost
Re: some feedback on installing lyx1.5rc1 on windows
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have 2 quirks here: 1) some packages I needed weren't in the bundle, which I would rather recommend to include; 2) miktex wanted to install some extra packages which I can't imagine I will ever need nor can imagine that lyx needs them to run. The reason for why MikTeX wants/needs to go online should probably be added and explained. I don't know why, but others will probably tell us. You can configure MikTeX for one of three behaviors when it runs latex.exe against a file that tries to load a package it can't find: download the package automatically; fail to compile the document; or nag the user for permission to download the package. (Incidentally, download here refers to going off to whatever repository was last used. If the last update to MikTeX came from local files or a CD, I'm pretty sure that's where MikTeX will go hunting for the missing package(s).) User's who've set the default to automatic download go through a ton of downloading -- or get a hard-to-recognize install failure if they're offline or the repository they use is offline -- and most of those packages are ones that I personally would never, ever need. (I have MikTeX set to nag, and I just pound on the D-for-deny key when it asks permission.) MikTeX: snip Why this is needed in order to just run lyx escapes my understanding. What's not obvious is that these aren't needed. I believe it's ok for MikTeX to fail to install these, and LyX will still run. Please correct me if this wasn't the case for you. Definitely true. The minimal MikTeX install includes article.cls and a few other fundamental ones, which should be enough to get LyX up and running. /Paul
some feedback on installing lyx1.5rc1 on windows
Dear LyX team, I write to you as a user who wants to give some feedback on my last experience installing lyx1.5rc1 on windows from the bundle with all the dependencies. First some background: I had already tried lyx some years ago, both under windows and linux, and have been trying it once in a while since then. As my knowledge of LaTeX and the complexity of my needs grew, I found myself feeling more comfortable writing «plain» LaTeX with a text editor rather than using lyx with lots of ERT. But recently my girlfriend complained to me for the 1000th time how awful and complicated it is for her to write her university papers with word, how it is a pain to make the table of contents, to work with styles, to write the bibliography list, to set crossreferences (which she still does manually), etc. Instantly, I thought of lyx. And so I decided to give the last version of lyx a try on her winXP machine (after helping her with her TOC, that is). I knew that since some versions ago there's now an officially supported windows port of lyx. I found the announcement of the fresh rc1 for lyx 1.5 on the website and went on to download the installer. I found 2 *.exe files: an installer without and another with all dependencies. Installing: I chose the bundle on purpose, as I knew the machine on which I wanted to install lyx isn't connected to the internet. I have to praise you for your work on the installer: it has and installs everything needed (miktex, ghostscript, imagemagick, etc.) in a mostly automated manner---very well thought out. (I still have to test the uninstallation, but if everything goes well and my girlfriend is comfortable with lyx, I won't have to ;-) After installing and upon running lyx for the first time, miktex tried to install some packages from the net. Imagine my surprise, as I thought everything I would ever need for running lyx should already be there. I have 2 quirks here: 1) some packages I needed weren't in the bundle, which I would rather recommend to include; 2) miktex wanted to install some extra packages which I can't imagine I will ever need nor can imagine that lyx needs them to run. Some clarifications: Upon installation I specified I wanted lyx localized in German. Then I chose aspell dictionaries for french, spanish, english and german. That's all I did that was out of the ordinary. Dictionaries: My suggestion here is as follows: I don't know how much space in MB all the dictionaries would take, but since the bundle weighs already 75+ MB, weren't it useful to pack them all in the bundle too? Even if the bundle grows up to 100 MB, for someone who wants to install it on a machine (or on many machines) without internet connection, spellchecking is such a basic feature that it makes the extra weight worthwhile. I can imagine that many lyx users aren't native language speakers of english, so packing all dictionaries in the bundle (~20?) should prove to be useful. MikTeX: From the files that MikTeX wanted to install (~15 if I recall correctly), I only recognized 1 which should be useful or needed for me: the koma script bundle. As I mentioned before, while installing I chose to localize lyx for German. I also chose during the MikTeX installation the default paper size to be DINA4. Because of this, miktex trying to install koma script is just natural. On the other hand, MikTeX tried to install some LaTeX style files and document classes to typeset articles submited for some specific english scientific journals, such as, e.g., amsart (if I recall correctly), and others. Why this is needed in order to just run lyx escapes my understanding. Last words: As I see it, lyx is becoming «the» tool for writing scientific papers without hassle and with all the power of LaTeX, and every student out there should at least know of it existence and have tried it once. I still have 1 personal quirk, though: On linux I prefer to work under gnome or xfce. I have until now succeeded on having a kde/qt-free desktop, so installing lyx would mean installing a lot of qt-libraries just for lyx to run. I know of the xforms-version, but if I understand correctly, future versions of lyx will be qt only, isn't it? Nevertheless, I will give it another try as soon as 1.5 is packaged for ubuntu. I wish you all a great 1.5 release! Regards Rafael
Re: some feedback on installing lyx1.5rc1 on windows
On Mon, 18 Jun 2007, Rafael Maguiña wrote: First of all, thanks for giving us the feedback! I assume you're rather computer savvy. Would you say above average (for a Windows user)? Installing: I chose the bundle on purpose, as I knew the machine on which I wanted to install lyx isn't connected to the internet. I have to praise you for your work on the installer: it has and installs everything needed (miktex, ghostscript, imagemagick, etc.) in a mostly automated manner---very well thought out. (I still have to test the uninstallation, but if everything goes well and my girlfriend is comfortable with lyx, I won't have to ;-) After installing and upon running lyx for the first time, miktex tried to install some packages from the net. This has been discussed before but I'm not up to speed on the topic. I hope others will chime in with pros and cons for bundling LaTeX packages. Imagine my surprise, as I thought everything I would ever need for running lyx should already be there. This obviously needs to be clarfied. Did you look at any kind of documentation or description of the installer before chosing the bundled version? If so, would you mind looking again and say if you think there's an obvious place to put this 'caveat'? (I could add such an information, but I'd like to add it in a place where the user actually looks... :-) I have 2 quirks here: 1) some packages I needed weren't in the bundle, which I would rather recommend to include; 2) miktex wanted to install some extra packages which I can't imagine I will ever need nor can imagine that lyx needs them to run. The reason for why MikTeX wants/needs to go online should probably be added and explained. I don't know why, but others will probably tell us. Dictionaries: My suggestion here is as follows: I don't know how much space in MB all the dictionaries would take, but since the bundle weighs already 75+ MB, weren't it useful to pack them all in the bundle too? All the dictionary installers sum up to around 30-60 MB, so at worst it would almost double the size. Joost/Uwe, can you confirm that a user can manually run a dictionary installer? If this is the case, then we could see about adding instructions for the user of a bundled installer to also download the relevant dictionary installers. Another alternative might be to provide a single archive with all the installers (30-60 MB). Or possibly a single installer that installs all dictionaries that we have... It's way overkill, but maybe more convenient than running 4-5 dictionary installers manually. Uwe, does your complete installer contain dictionaries as well? If that's the case, Rafael might simply have been better off using that installer... Perhaps that's even the case with the MikTeX packages, I don't know. Rafael, did you look at the "alternative" installer? MikTeX: Why this is needed in order to just run lyx escapes my understanding. What's not obvious is that these aren't needed. I believe it's ok for MikTeX to fail to install these, and LyX will still run. Please correct me if this wasn't the case for you. just for lyx to run. I know of the xforms-version, but if I understand correctly, future versions of lyx will be qt only, isn't it? Yes, xforms is "dead". I'm afraid you will have to install Qt libraries as well. Best regards, /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
Re: some feedback on installing lyx1.5rc1 on windows
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Joost/Uwe, can you confirm that a user can manually run a dictionary installer? If this is the case, then we could see about adding instructions for the user of a bundled installer to also download the relevant dictionary installers. The bundled installer allows you to download dictionaries. Dictionaries can also be downloaded and installed manually. Another alternative might be to provide a single archive with all the installers (30-60 MB). Or possibly a single installer that installs all dictionaries that we have... It's way overkill, but maybe more convenient than running 4-5 dictionary installers manually. I think that's overkill. Uwe, does your complete installer contain dictionaries as well? If that's the case, Rafael might simply have been better off using that installer... Perhaps that's even the case with the MikTeX packages, I don't know. There is no installer that includes all dictionaries and MiKTeX packages. If you need to install on a computer without internet access, download the dictionaries you like and transfer them to the system along with the installer. MiKTeX handles package installation itself (we should not interfere with that). Instructions about downloading all packages is available here: http://docs.miktex.org/2.6/manual/installing.html This is however not always necessary (see below). What's not obvious is that these aren't needed. I believe it's ok for MikTeX to fail to install these, and LyX will still run. Please correct me if this wasn't the case for you. That's correct. LyX just checks whether the packages are available and MiKTeX then download them. If you download everything you will be able to use all LyX features. Basic things will work without these packages. Joost
Re: some feedback on installing lyx1.5rc1 on windows
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have 2 quirks here: 1) some packages I needed weren't in the bundle, which I would rather recommend to include; 2) miktex wanted to install some extra packages which I can't imagine I will ever need nor can imagine that lyx needs them to run. The reason for why MikTeX wants/needs to go online should probably be added and explained. I don't know why, but others will probably tell us. You can configure MikTeX for one of three behaviors when it runs latex.exe against a file that tries to load a package it can't find: download the package automatically; fail to compile the document; or nag the user for permission to download the package. (Incidentally, "download" here refers to going off to whatever repository was last used. If the last update to MikTeX came from local files or a CD, I'm pretty sure that's where MikTeX will go hunting for the missing package(s).) User's who've set the default to automatic download go through a ton of downloading -- or get a hard-to-recognize install failure if they're offline or the repository they use is offline -- and most of those packages are ones that I personally would never, ever need. (I have MikTeX set to nag, and I just pound on the D-for-deny key when it asks permission.) MikTeX: Why this is needed in order to just run lyx escapes my understanding. What's not obvious is that these aren't needed. I believe it's ok for MikTeX to fail to install these, and LyX will still run. Please correct me if this wasn't the case for you. Definitely true. The minimal MikTeX install includes article.cls and a few other fundamental ones, which should be enough to get LyX up and running. /Paul
