Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Abdelrazak Younes]

Peter Bowyer wrote:

Hi,

I am one of  the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on 
screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with a 
pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the changes up.


I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was on-screen 
looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard about which 
parts matched up.  However with LyX this has become much more difficult, 
because the printed copy and the editable copy don't look similar.


Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much 
longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX) which 
suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have any tips or 
suggestions for making the editing process smoother?


Hello Peter,

I have two suggestions for you:

1) structure your document with sections and subsections. In general, my 
documents never have more than a page inside a subsection. Even with two 
pages, it's easy enough to find yourself inside the subsection. Putting 
some visual markups like numbered or itemized lists would help also.


Or course the method above won't directly work if you are writing a 
Roman or something like that because you would not want every paragraph 
to have a title. But I have a solution for that too:


2) Encapsulate the sections and subsections in a LyX Branch. When you 
are working on the document, let LyX print the Branch version of the 
document. When you're done with it, just print the master document 
without the branch for distribution. The added benefit is that the finer 
grained sections and subsections will help you structure your document.


The next version of LyX (not sure about 1.4.2 but 1.5.0 for sure) will 
help you even more because of the new outline feature that will allow to 
move entire sections with a simple mouse click.


Hope this helps,
Abdel.

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Abdelrazak Younes]

Peter Bowyer wrote:

Hi,

I am one of  the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on 
screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with a 
pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the changes up.


I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was on-screen 
looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard about which 
parts matched up.  However with LyX this has become much more difficult, 
because the printed copy and the editable copy don't look similar.


Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much 
longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX) which 
suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have any tips or 
suggestions for making the editing process smoother?


Hello Peter,

I have two suggestions for you:

1) structure your document with sections and subsections. In general, my 
documents never have more than a page inside a subsection. Even with two 
pages, it's easy enough to find yourself inside the subsection. Putting 
some visual markups like numbered or itemized lists would help also.


Or course the method above won't directly work if you are writing a 
Roman or something like that because you would not want every paragraph 
to have a title. But I have a solution for that too:


2) Encapsulate the sections and subsections in a LyX Branch. When you 
are working on the document, let LyX print the Branch version of the 
document. When you're done with it, just print the master document 
without the branch for distribution. The added benefit is that the finer 
grained sections and subsections will help you structure your document.


The next version of LyX (not sure about 1.4.2 but 1.5.0 for sure) will 
help you even more because of the new outline feature that will allow to 
move entire sections with a simple mouse click.


Hope this helps,
Abdel.

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Abdelrazak Younes]

Peter Bowyer wrote:

Hi,

I am one of  the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on 
screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with a 
pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the changes up.


I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was on-screen 
looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard about which 
parts matched up.  However with LyX this has become much more difficult, 
because the printed copy and the editable copy don't look similar.


Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much 
longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX) which 
suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have any tips or 
suggestions for making the editing process smoother?


Hello Peter,

I have two suggestions for you:

1) structure your document with sections and subsections. In general, my 
documents never have more than a page inside a subsection. Even with two 
pages, it's easy enough to find yourself inside the subsection. Putting 
some visual markups like numbered or itemized lists would help also.


Or course the method above won't directly work if you are writing a 
Roman or something like that because you would not want every paragraph 
to have a title. But I have a solution for that too:


2) Encapsulate the sections and subsections in a LyX Branch. When you 
are working on the document, let LyX print the Branch version of the 
document. When you're done with it, just print the master document 
without the branch for distribution. The added benefit is that the finer 
grained sections and subsections will help you structure your document.


The next version of LyX (not sure about 1.4.2 but 1.5.0 for sure) will 
help you even more because of the new outline feature that will allow to 
move entire sections with a simple mouse click.


Hope this helps,
Abdel.

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Helge Hafting]

Peter Bowyer wrote:

Hi,

I am one of  the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on 
screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with a 
pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the changes up.


I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was 
on-screen looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard 
about which parts matched up.  However with LyX this has become much 
more difficult, because the printed copy and the editable copy don't 
look similar.

Paper is something I usually only use for final output. I use view-pdf
or view-dvi when I want an exact preview.

Still, I know the problem very well.  I wrote a book, and went through 
several

iterations where the publisher sent back a printout where all sorts of
corrections were marked with a pen.

The paper was not like the screen, but seriously, it is not with other word
processors either.  It may be the same when you start doing corrections,
but after fixing stuff on pages 1 and 2, the line and page breaking becomes
different througout the rest of the chapter anyway.

Instead of considering where on the page is this error, I looked for
where is the error relative to the previous (or next) heading.
Finding a heading is easy enough, counting paragraphs from there
is simple too.  Finally, finding the correct place in the paragraph is easy
as paragraphs are so small.  Don't count lines in a big paragraph,
just estimate wheter the place you want is in the first, second or last 
third of the paragraph.


My book also uses numbered headings, that makes it easier too.

Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much 
longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX) which 
suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have any tips or 
suggestions for making the editing process smoother?

Well, it is not that hard, you just have to get used to not using the
where on the sheet is this approach.  If you need to find something
far away in a big document, use the search function.  Press ctrl+f,
and enter part of the sentence you are looking for.  Then lyx goes
right there.  Otherwise, counting headers and paragraphs works.  They
are the same on paper and screen, although the shape differ a bit.


Helge Hafting

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Helge Hafting]

Peter Bowyer wrote:

Hi,

I am one of  the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on 
screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with a 
pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the changes up.


I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was 
on-screen looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard 
about which parts matched up.  However with LyX this has become much 
more difficult, because the printed copy and the editable copy don't 
look similar.

Paper is something I usually only use for final output. I use view-pdf
or view-dvi when I want an exact preview.

Still, I know the problem very well.  I wrote a book, and went through 
several

iterations where the publisher sent back a printout where all sorts of
corrections were marked with a pen.

The paper was not like the screen, but seriously, it is not with other word
processors either.  It may be the same when you start doing corrections,
but after fixing stuff on pages 1 and 2, the line and page breaking becomes
different througout the rest of the chapter anyway.

Instead of considering where on the page is this error, I looked for
where is the error relative to the previous (or next) heading.
Finding a heading is easy enough, counting paragraphs from there
is simple too.  Finally, finding the correct place in the paragraph is easy
as paragraphs are so small.  Don't count lines in a big paragraph,
just estimate wheter the place you want is in the first, second or last 
third of the paragraph.


My book also uses numbered headings, that makes it easier too.

Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much 
longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX) which 
suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have any tips or 
suggestions for making the editing process smoother?

Well, it is not that hard, you just have to get used to not using the
where on the sheet is this approach.  If you need to find something
far away in a big document, use the search function.  Press ctrl+f,
and enter part of the sentence you are looking for.  Then lyx goes
right there.  Otherwise, counting headers and paragraphs works.  They
are the same on paper and screen, although the shape differ a bit.


Helge Hafting

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Helge Hafting]

Peter Bowyer wrote:

Hi,

I am one of  the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on 
screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with a 
pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the changes up.


I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was 
on-screen looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard 
about which parts matched up.  However with LyX this has become much 
more difficult, because the printed copy and the editable copy don't 
look similar.

Paper is something I usually only use for final output. I use view->pdf
or view->dvi when I want an exact preview.

Still, I know the problem very well.  I wrote a book, and went through 
several

iterations where the publisher sent back a printout where all sorts of
corrections were marked with a pen.

The paper was not like the screen, but seriously, it is not with other word
processors either.  It may be the same when you start doing corrections,
but after fixing stuff on pages 1 and 2, the line and page breaking becomes
different througout the rest of the chapter anyway.

Instead of considering "where on the page is this error", I looked for
"where is the error relative to the previous (or next) heading.
Finding a heading is easy enough, counting paragraphs from there
is simple too.  Finally, finding the correct place in the paragraph is easy
as paragraphs are so small.  Don't count lines in a big paragraph,
just estimate wheter the place you want is in the first, second or last 
third of the paragraph.


My book also uses numbered headings, that makes it easier too.

Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much 
longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX) which 
suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have any tips or 
suggestions for making the editing process smoother?

Well, it is not that hard, you just have to get used to not using the
"where on the sheet is this" approach.  If you need to find something
far away in a big document, use the search function.  Press ctrl+f,
and enter part of the sentence you are looking for.  Then lyx goes
right there.  Otherwise, counting headers and paragraphs works.  They
are the same on paper and screen, although the shape differ a bit.


Helge Hafting

Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Peter Bowyer]

Hi,

I am one of  the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on 
screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with a 
pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the changes up.


I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was 
on-screen looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard 
about which parts matched up.  However with LyX this has become much 
more difficult, because the printed copy and the editable copy don't 
look similar.


Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much 
longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX) 
which suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have any tips 
or suggestions for making the editing process smoother?


Thanks,
Peter

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[John Coppens]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 21:00:22 +0100
Peter Bowyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much 
 longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX) 
 which suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have any tips 
 or suggestions for making the editing process smoother?

Hi Peter...

Shouldn't be too difficult - if you want to read the same-as-printed
document, why don't you use the View options? View|PDF or View|postscript
or whatever equivalent to the command you use to print...

Of course, this is an extra step as compared to a WYSIWYG editor, but
then LyX doesn't allow you to make as many errors either ;-)

John

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[A. Scottedward Hodel]

This ties in closely with the ongoing discussion of the goals of LyX.

The LyX editor itself is to put in the content/hierarchical  
organization of a document.  When I need to preview the actual  
document, I use that option in LyX (cmd-T on a macintosh, View- 
update-pdf on the menu) which lets me see the current .pdf file  
output.


I've come to LyX from the opposite end of many of the people writing:  
I started with LaTeX, ideal for writing mathematical papers/ 
bibliographies, and now find LyX a wonderful way to simiplify  
document formatting and preparation.  I only use WYSIWYG editors for  
quick-hack items that things like MS Word can do more easily than  
LyX.  (That's an increasingly rare event for me.)


LaTeX's document formatting reminds me of what Henry Ford said long  
ago about the Model T car: You can have it in any color you like, as  
long as it's black.  LaTeX and, by consequence, LyX, do what the do  
very well, but their purpose and use is quite different from  WYSIWYG  
document preparation.


Yours,

A S Hodel

On Jun 19, 2006, at 3:00 PM, Peter Bowyer wrote:


Hi,

I am one of  the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on  
screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with  
a pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the  
changes up.


I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was on- 
screen looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard  
about which parts matched up.  However with LyX this has become  
much more difficult, because the printed copy and the editable copy  
don't look similar.


Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for  
much longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw  
TeX) which suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have  
any tips or suggestions for making the editing process smoother?


Thanks,
Peter

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Steve Litt]

On Monday 19 June 2006 04:00 pm, Peter Bowyer wrote:
 Hi,

 I am one of  the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on
 screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with a
 pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the changes up.

 I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was
 on-screen looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard
 about which parts matched up.  However with LyX this has become much
 more difficult, because the printed copy and the editable copy don't
 look similar.

 Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much
 longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX)
 which suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have any tips
 or suggestions for making the editing process smoother?

I like the way you're doing it right now. Wordperfect, Word and LyX, I've 
always printed a chapter, sat down in a quiet corner or layed down in bed, 
and marked it up with a red pen. When I'm done, I go back into the source 
document and make the changes, same as you do now. If I can't find something 
because of different pagenation and the like, I use search, and that's fast.

I'll tell you why I'm so enthusiastic about printing a chapter and marking it 
up with red pen. Reading paper gives you a different viewpoint than sitting 
in front of a terminal. You input the content in front of a terminal, and my 
thought is that if I were to edit in that same way, I'd miss the mistakes I 
made in the first place. By marking up a paper copy, I edit from a different 
viewpoint and nail the mistakes I made the first time.

By the way, if you're anything like me, you'll need to print and mark up each 
chapter 2 or 3 times before you get what you consider satisfactory.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Author: 
   * Universal Troubleshooting Process courseware
   * Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist
   * Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
   * Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
   * Rapid Learning: Secret Weapon of the Successful Technologist

http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore
http://www.troubleshooters.com/utp/tcourses.htm

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Rich Shepard]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, Peter Bowyer wrote:


Do you have any tips or suggestions for making the editing process
smoother?


Peter,

  I can offer what I developed as a workable solution for me over several
decades. I wear two hats, but not at the same time.

  I wear my writing hat and put out a stream of text. I'll stop and consider
sentences and words, but basically my first draft is getting the ideas down.
This is after developing the ToC, of course.

  A couple of days later (if I have the time), I take off my writer's hat and
put on my editor's hat. I find all the sentences that are much too long
(that's the way I speak and write), and make two- to three-sentences of them.
I look at a sentence and ask myself what I'm trying to express here, and
would it be clear to someone who did not know as much as I about the subject?

  Also, I tend to do a lot of this review in xdvi (or whatever the latest
flavor is). I can increase the magnification so I don't need reading glasses,
and it lets me see it as a printed page. I can also see overfull horizontal
lines and missing pieces (such as in the headers or incorrect page
numbering). Or, I'll produce the pdf output and do the critical editing reading
in xpdf. Both are easier to follow than the screen-wide LyX window that I
use.

  When I'm sufficiently satisfied, I ask others to review what I've written,
and I do a final read-through on a printed copy. I, too, can see things on
the printed page that I miss on the screen. But, looking at the dvi or pdf
output on screen is almost as good. Actually, it's probably just as good. :-)

HTH,

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |The Environmental Permitting
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.(TM)|Accelerator
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Peter Bowyer]

At 21:11 19/06/2006, John Coppens wrote:

Shouldn't be too difficult - if you want to read the same-as-printed
document, why don't you use the View options? View|PDF or View|postscript
or whatever equivalent to the command you use to print...


Because these don't' help me find the text I need to edit in an editable form.

I've been using the find tool and that's working OK, I'm just curious 
to see how other people do it.  I'm not saying LyX should be like a 
Word Processor, just that they make the editing easier and there must 
be a way round this.  But then I'm not an emacs/vim user, so I don't 
approach this problem as they would.


Peter

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Rich Shepard]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, A. Scottedward Hodel wrote:


I've come to LyX from the opposite end of many of the people writing: I
started with LaTeX, ideal for writing mathematical papers/bibliographies,
and now find LyX a wonderful way to simiplify document formatting and
preparation. I only use WYSIWYG editors for quick-hack items that things
like MS Word can do more easily than LyX. (That's an increasingly rare
event for me.)


  This reminds me of my first couple of days with LyX. I have a friend who
still does all his writing in plain TeX (and, yes, I've told him he's a
masochist, but he's been using it for 20+ years). Anyway, as soon as I
finished the LyX tutorial I sent him an e-mail raving about the ease of
document creation. He sent me a challenge.

  He had spent two weeks formatting a resume for his daughter, who was
graduating from high school and needed something for her college
applications. I was sent the .pdf output and asked how long it would take to
do the same think with LyX. Using the tutorial, Users Guide, and Reference
Manual, I recreated the resume with LyX and sent it to him the next morning
-- with the .lyx file.

  My friend was suitably impressed (and so was I, to be candid), but he still
writes in plain TeX. :-) Can't teach that old dog new tricks.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |The Environmental Permitting
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.(TM)|Accelerator
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Richard Heck]

When I'm doing close editing, I View DVI and switch back and forth
between the DVI viewer and LyX. LyX now has a feature that allows you
the DVI viewer effectively to inform LyX what you want to edit, and LyX
will then go there automatically. I've not used that yet, however, as I
can always just search for a relevant phrase, and that works for me.

Peter Bowyer wrote:
 Hi,

 I am one of the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on
 screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with a
 pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the changes up.

 I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was
 on-screen looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard
 about which parts matched up. However with LyX this has become much
 more difficult, because the printed copy and the editable copy don't
 look similar.

 Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much
 longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX) which
 suggests it's a problem with my approach. Do you have any tips or
 suggestions for making the editing process smoother?

 Thanks,
 Peter

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Kenward Vaughan]

On Mon, Jun 19, 2006 at 09:00:22PM +0100, Peter Bowyer wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I am one of  the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on 
 screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with a 
 pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the changes up.
 
 I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was 
 on-screen looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard 
 about which parts matched up.  However with LyX this has become much 
 more difficult, because the printed copy and the editable copy don't 
 look similar.
 
 Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much 
 longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX) 
 which suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have any tips 
 or suggestions for making the editing process smoother?
 
 Thanks,
 Peter

I'm not sure what it is specifically that you want to transfer from the
look (when you speak of matching up parts), but my own approach
involves using gv and the built-in shortcuts for that viewer.  

I set gv's preferences to include watch file (updates about every
second).  In LyX I type ctrl-T to open a view in gv, then every time I
finish editing something I know affects the look, I type ctrl-shft-T,
and the view is updated.

Since I use fluxbox as a window manager, I tab the two apps together,
so no more real estate is lost.  Passing my mouse over the tabs shifts
between LyX and gv.  One could use another desktop for gv, if desired.

Of course, if you're in Windows, you'll have to deal with whatever
limitations are there...  ;-)

Printing specific pages is simple with gv.

Trying to match text is not an issue for me, since gv is always synced
with LyX this way (I see, then I edit directly).  If needed, I'd guess
that you could leave the find box open next to the window...

HTH,


Kenward
-- 
In a completely rational society, the best of us would aspire to be 
_teachers_ and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, 
because passing civilization along from one generation to the next 
ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone 
could have. - Lee Iacocca

Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Peter Bowyer]

Hi,

I am one of  the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on 
screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with a 
pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the changes up.


I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was 
on-screen looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard 
about which parts matched up.  However with LyX this has become much 
more difficult, because the printed copy and the editable copy don't 
look similar.


Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much 
longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX) 
which suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have any tips 
or suggestions for making the editing process smoother?


Thanks,
Peter

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[John Coppens]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 21:00:22 +0100
Peter Bowyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much 
 longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX) 
 which suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have any tips 
 or suggestions for making the editing process smoother?

Hi Peter...

Shouldn't be too difficult - if you want to read the same-as-printed
document, why don't you use the View options? View|PDF or View|postscript
or whatever equivalent to the command you use to print...

Of course, this is an extra step as compared to a WYSIWYG editor, but
then LyX doesn't allow you to make as many errors either ;-)

John

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[A. Scottedward Hodel]

This ties in closely with the ongoing discussion of the goals of LyX.

The LyX editor itself is to put in the content/hierarchical  
organization of a document.  When I need to preview the actual  
document, I use that option in LyX (cmd-T on a macintosh, View- 
update-pdf on the menu) which lets me see the current .pdf file  
output.


I've come to LyX from the opposite end of many of the people writing:  
I started with LaTeX, ideal for writing mathematical papers/ 
bibliographies, and now find LyX a wonderful way to simiplify  
document formatting and preparation.  I only use WYSIWYG editors for  
quick-hack items that things like MS Word can do more easily than  
LyX.  (That's an increasingly rare event for me.)


LaTeX's document formatting reminds me of what Henry Ford said long  
ago about the Model T car: You can have it in any color you like, as  
long as it's black.  LaTeX and, by consequence, LyX, do what the do  
very well, but their purpose and use is quite different from  WYSIWYG  
document preparation.


Yours,

A S Hodel

On Jun 19, 2006, at 3:00 PM, Peter Bowyer wrote:


Hi,

I am one of  the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on  
screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with  
a pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the  
changes up.


I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was on- 
screen looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard  
about which parts matched up.  However with LyX this has become  
much more difficult, because the printed copy and the editable copy  
don't look similar.


Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for  
much longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw  
TeX) which suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have  
any tips or suggestions for making the editing process smoother?


Thanks,
Peter

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Steve Litt]

On Monday 19 June 2006 04:00 pm, Peter Bowyer wrote:
 Hi,

 I am one of  the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on
 screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with a
 pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the changes up.

 I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was
 on-screen looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard
 about which parts matched up.  However with LyX this has become much
 more difficult, because the printed copy and the editable copy don't
 look similar.

 Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much
 longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX)
 which suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have any tips
 or suggestions for making the editing process smoother?

I like the way you're doing it right now. Wordperfect, Word and LyX, I've 
always printed a chapter, sat down in a quiet corner or layed down in bed, 
and marked it up with a red pen. When I'm done, I go back into the source 
document and make the changes, same as you do now. If I can't find something 
because of different pagenation and the like, I use search, and that's fast.

I'll tell you why I'm so enthusiastic about printing a chapter and marking it 
up with red pen. Reading paper gives you a different viewpoint than sitting 
in front of a terminal. You input the content in front of a terminal, and my 
thought is that if I were to edit in that same way, I'd miss the mistakes I 
made in the first place. By marking up a paper copy, I edit from a different 
viewpoint and nail the mistakes I made the first time.

By the way, if you're anything like me, you'll need to print and mark up each 
chapter 2 or 3 times before you get what you consider satisfactory.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Author: 
   * Universal Troubleshooting Process courseware
   * Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist
   * Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
   * Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
   * Rapid Learning: Secret Weapon of the Successful Technologist

http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore
http://www.troubleshooters.com/utp/tcourses.htm

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Rich Shepard]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, Peter Bowyer wrote:


Do you have any tips or suggestions for making the editing process
smoother?


Peter,

  I can offer what I developed as a workable solution for me over several
decades. I wear two hats, but not at the same time.

  I wear my writing hat and put out a stream of text. I'll stop and consider
sentences and words, but basically my first draft is getting the ideas down.
This is after developing the ToC, of course.

  A couple of days later (if I have the time), I take off my writer's hat and
put on my editor's hat. I find all the sentences that are much too long
(that's the way I speak and write), and make two- to three-sentences of them.
I look at a sentence and ask myself what I'm trying to express here, and
would it be clear to someone who did not know as much as I about the subject?

  Also, I tend to do a lot of this review in xdvi (or whatever the latest
flavor is). I can increase the magnification so I don't need reading glasses,
and it lets me see it as a printed page. I can also see overfull horizontal
lines and missing pieces (such as in the headers or incorrect page
numbering). Or, I'll produce the pdf output and do the critical editing reading
in xpdf. Both are easier to follow than the screen-wide LyX window that I
use.

  When I'm sufficiently satisfied, I ask others to review what I've written,
and I do a final read-through on a printed copy. I, too, can see things on
the printed page that I miss on the screen. But, looking at the dvi or pdf
output on screen is almost as good. Actually, it's probably just as good. :-)

HTH,

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |The Environmental Permitting
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.(TM)|Accelerator
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Peter Bowyer]

At 21:11 19/06/2006, John Coppens wrote:

Shouldn't be too difficult - if you want to read the same-as-printed
document, why don't you use the View options? View|PDF or View|postscript
or whatever equivalent to the command you use to print...


Because these don't' help me find the text I need to edit in an editable form.

I've been using the find tool and that's working OK, I'm just curious 
to see how other people do it.  I'm not saying LyX should be like a 
Word Processor, just that they make the editing easier and there must 
be a way round this.  But then I'm not an emacs/vim user, so I don't 
approach this problem as they would.


Peter

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Rich Shepard]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, A. Scottedward Hodel wrote:


I've come to LyX from the opposite end of many of the people writing: I
started with LaTeX, ideal for writing mathematical papers/bibliographies,
and now find LyX a wonderful way to simiplify document formatting and
preparation. I only use WYSIWYG editors for quick-hack items that things
like MS Word can do more easily than LyX. (That's an increasingly rare
event for me.)


  This reminds me of my first couple of days with LyX. I have a friend who
still does all his writing in plain TeX (and, yes, I've told him he's a
masochist, but he's been using it for 20+ years). Anyway, as soon as I
finished the LyX tutorial I sent him an e-mail raving about the ease of
document creation. He sent me a challenge.

  He had spent two weeks formatting a resume for his daughter, who was
graduating from high school and needed something for her college
applications. I was sent the .pdf output and asked how long it would take to
do the same think with LyX. Using the tutorial, Users Guide, and Reference
Manual, I recreated the resume with LyX and sent it to him the next morning
-- with the .lyx file.

  My friend was suitably impressed (and so was I, to be candid), but he still
writes in plain TeX. :-) Can't teach that old dog new tricks.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |The Environmental Permitting
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.(TM)|Accelerator
http://www.appl-ecosys.com Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Richard Heck]

When I'm doing close editing, I View DVI and switch back and forth
between the DVI viewer and LyX. LyX now has a feature that allows you
the DVI viewer effectively to inform LyX what you want to edit, and LyX
will then go there automatically. I've not used that yet, however, as I
can always just search for a relevant phrase, and that works for me.

Peter Bowyer wrote:
 Hi,

 I am one of the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on
 screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with a
 pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the changes up.

 I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was
 on-screen looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard
 about which parts matched up. However with LyX this has become much
 more difficult, because the printed copy and the editable copy don't
 look similar.

 Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much
 longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX) which
 suggests it's a problem with my approach. Do you have any tips or
 suggestions for making the editing process smoother?

 Thanks,
 Peter

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Kenward Vaughan]

On Mon, Jun 19, 2006 at 09:00:22PM +0100, Peter Bowyer wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I am one of  the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on 
 screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with a 
 pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the changes up.
 
 I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was 
 on-screen looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard 
 about which parts matched up.  However with LyX this has become much 
 more difficult, because the printed copy and the editable copy don't 
 look similar.
 
 Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much 
 longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX) 
 which suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have any tips 
 or suggestions for making the editing process smoother?
 
 Thanks,
 Peter

I'm not sure what it is specifically that you want to transfer from the
look (when you speak of matching up parts), but my own approach
involves using gv and the built-in shortcuts for that viewer.  

I set gv's preferences to include watch file (updates about every
second).  In LyX I type ctrl-T to open a view in gv, then every time I
finish editing something I know affects the look, I type ctrl-shft-T,
and the view is updated.

Since I use fluxbox as a window manager, I tab the two apps together,
so no more real estate is lost.  Passing my mouse over the tabs shifts
between LyX and gv.  One could use another desktop for gv, if desired.

Of course, if you're in Windows, you'll have to deal with whatever
limitations are there...  ;-)

Printing specific pages is simple with gv.

Trying to match text is not an issue for me, since gv is always synced
with LyX this way (I see, then I edit directly).  If needed, I'd guess
that you could leave the find box open next to the window...

HTH,


Kenward
-- 
In a completely rational society, the best of us would aspire to be 
_teachers_ and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, 
because passing civilization along from one generation to the next 
ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone 
could have. - Lee Iacocca

Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Peter Bowyer]

Hi,

I am one of  the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on 
screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with a 
pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the changes up.


I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was 
on-screen looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard 
about which parts matched up.  However with LyX this has become much 
more difficult, because the printed copy and the editable copy don't 
look similar.


Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much 
longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX) 
which suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have any tips 
or suggestions for making the editing process smoother?


Thanks,
Peter

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[John Coppens]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006 21:00:22 +0100
Peter Bowyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much 
> longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX) 
> which suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have any tips 
> or suggestions for making the editing process smoother?

Hi Peter...

Shouldn't be too difficult - if you want to read the same-as-printed
document, why don't you use the View options? View|PDF or View|postscript
or whatever equivalent to the command you use to print...

Of course, this is an extra step as compared to a WYSIWYG editor, but
then LyX doesn't allow you to make as many errors either ;-)

John

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[A. Scottedward Hodel]

This ties in closely with the ongoing discussion of the goals of LyX.

The LyX editor itself is to put in the content/hierarchical  
organization of a document.  When I need to preview the actual  
document, I use that option in LyX (cmd-T on a macintosh, View- 
>update->pdf on the menu) which lets me see the current .pdf file  
output.


I've come to LyX from the opposite end of many of the people writing:  
I started with LaTeX, ideal for writing mathematical papers/ 
bibliographies, and now find LyX a wonderful way to simiplify  
document formatting and preparation.  I only use WYSIWYG editors for  
quick-hack items that things like MS Word can do more easily than  
LyX.  (That's an increasingly rare event for me.)


LaTeX's document formatting reminds me of what Henry Ford said long  
ago about the Model T car: "You can have it in any color you like, as  
long as it's black."  LaTeX and, by consequence, LyX, do what the do  
very well, but their purpose and use is quite different from  WYSIWYG  
document preparation.


Yours,

A S Hodel

On Jun 19, 2006, at 3:00 PM, Peter Bowyer wrote:


Hi,

I am one of  the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on  
screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with  
a pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the  
changes up.


I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was on- 
screen looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard  
about which parts matched up.  However with LyX this has become  
much more difficult, because the printed copy and the editable copy  
don't look similar.


Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for  
much longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw  
TeX) which suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have  
any tips or suggestions for making the editing process smoother?


Thanks,
Peter

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Steve Litt]

On Monday 19 June 2006 04:00 pm, Peter Bowyer wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am one of  the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on
> screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with a
> pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the changes up.
>
> I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was
> on-screen looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard
> about which parts matched up.  However with LyX this has become much
> more difficult, because the printed copy and the editable copy don't
> look similar.
>
> Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much
> longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX)
> which suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have any tips
> or suggestions for making the editing process smoother?

I like the way you're doing it right now. Wordperfect, Word and LyX, I've 
always printed a chapter, sat down in a quiet corner or layed down in bed, 
and marked it up with a red pen. When I'm done, I go back into the "source 
document" and make the changes, same as you do now. If I can't find something 
because of different pagenation and the like, I use search, and that's fast.

I'll tell you why I'm so enthusiastic about printing a chapter and marking it 
up with red pen. Reading paper gives you a different viewpoint than sitting 
in front of a terminal. You input the content in front of a terminal, and my 
thought is that if I were to edit in that same way, I'd miss the mistakes I 
made in the first place. By marking up a paper copy, I edit from a different 
viewpoint and nail the mistakes I made the first time.

By the way, if you're anything like me, you'll need to print and mark up each 
chapter 2 or 3 times before you get what you consider satisfactory.

SteveT

Steve Litt
Author: 
   * Universal Troubleshooting Process courseware
   * Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist
   * Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
   * Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
   * Rapid Learning: Secret Weapon of the Successful Technologist

http://www.troubleshooters.com/bookstore
http://www.troubleshooters.com/utp/tcourses.htm

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Rich Shepard]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, Peter Bowyer wrote:


Do you have any tips or suggestions for making the editing process
smoother?


Peter,

  I can offer what I developed as a workable solution for me over several
decades. I wear two hats, but not at the same time.

  I wear my writing hat and put out a stream of text. I'll stop and consider
sentences and words, but basically my first draft is getting the ideas down.
This is after developing the ToC, of course.

  A couple of days later (if I have the time), I take off my writer's hat and
put on my editor's hat. I find all the sentences that are much too long
(that's the way I speak and write), and make two- to three-sentences of them.
I look at a sentence and ask myself what I'm trying to express here, and
would it be clear to someone who did not know as much as I about the subject?

  Also, I tend to do a lot of this review in xdvi (or whatever the latest
flavor is). I can increase the magnification so I don't need reading glasses,
and it lets me see it as a printed page. I can also see overfull horizontal
lines and missing pieces (such as in the headers or incorrect page
numbering). Or, I'll produce the pdf output and do the critical editing reading
in xpdf. Both are easier to follow than the screen-wide LyX window that I
use.

  When I'm sufficiently satisfied, I ask others to review what I've written,
and I do a final read-through on a printed copy. I, too, can see things on
the printed page that I miss on the screen. But, looking at the dvi or pdf
output on screen is almost as good. Actually, it's probably just as good. :-)

HTH,

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |The Environmental Permitting
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.(TM)|Accelerator
 Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Peter Bowyer]

At 21:11 19/06/2006, John Coppens wrote:

Shouldn't be too difficult - if you want to read the same-as-printed
document, why don't you use the View options? View|PDF or View|postscript
or whatever equivalent to the command you use to print...


Because these don't' help me find the text I need to edit in an editable form.

I've been using the find tool and that's working OK, I'm just curious 
to see how other people do it.  I'm not saying LyX should be like a 
Word Processor, just that they make the editing easier and there must 
be a way round this.  But then I'm not an emacs/vim user, so I don't 
approach this problem as they would.


Peter

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Rich Shepard]

On Mon, 19 Jun 2006, A. Scottedward Hodel wrote:


I've come to LyX from the opposite end of many of the people writing: I
started with LaTeX, ideal for writing mathematical papers/bibliographies,
and now find LyX a wonderful way to simiplify document formatting and
preparation. I only use WYSIWYG editors for quick-hack items that things
like MS Word can do more easily than LyX. (That's an increasingly rare
event for me.)


  This reminds me of my first couple of days with LyX. I have a friend who
still does all his writing in plain TeX (and, yes, I've told him he's a
masochist, but he's been using it for 20+ years). Anyway, as soon as I
finished the LyX tutorial I sent him an e-mail raving about the ease of
document creation. He sent me a challenge.

  He had spent two weeks formatting a resume for his daughter, who was
graduating from high school and needed something for her college
applications. I was sent the .pdf output and asked how long it would take to
do the same think with LyX. Using the tutorial, Users Guide, and Reference
Manual, I recreated the resume with LyX and sent it to him the next morning
-- with the .lyx file.

  My friend was suitably impressed (and so was I, to be candid), but he still
writes in plain TeX. :-) Can't teach that old dog new tricks.

Rich

--
Richard B. Shepard, Ph.D.   |The Environmental Permitting
Applied Ecosystem Services, Inc.(TM)|Accelerator
 Voice: 503-667-4517  Fax: 503-667-8863

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Richard Heck]

When I'm doing close editing, I "View DVI" and switch back and forth
between the DVI viewer and LyX. LyX now has a feature that allows you
the DVI viewer effectively to inform LyX what you want to edit, and LyX
will then go there automatically. I've not used that yet, however, as I
can always just search for a relevant phrase, and that works for me.

Peter Bowyer wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I am one of the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on
> screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with a
> pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the changes up.
>
> I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was
> on-screen looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard
> about which parts matched up. However with LyX this has become much
> more difficult, because the printed copy and the editable copy don't
> look similar.
>
> Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much
> longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX) which
> suggests it's a problem with my approach. Do you have any tips or
> suggestions for making the editing process smoother?
>
> Thanks,
> Peter

Re: Easing the editing/correction of LyX documents

[Kenward Vaughan]

On Mon, Jun 19, 2006 at 09:00:22PM +0100, Peter Bowyer wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I am one of  the people who cannot finds editing documents hard on 
> screen - I end up printing a copy and then working through it with a 
> pen, making changes and restructuring, and then typing the changes up.
> 
> I didn't find this a problem when using Word because what was 
> on-screen looked like the paper copy, so I didn't have to think hard 
> about which parts matched up.  However with LyX this has become much 
> more difficult, because the printed copy and the editable copy don't 
> look similar.
> 
> Now I know that people have been writing documents this way for much 
> longer than word processors have been around, (think of raw TeX) 
> which suggests it's a problem with my approach.  Do you have any tips 
> or suggestions for making the editing process smoother?
> 
> Thanks,
> Peter

I'm not sure what it is specifically that you want to transfer from the
"look" (when you speak of matching up parts), but my own approach
involves using gv and the built-in shortcuts for that viewer.  

I set gv's preferences to include "watch file" (updates about every
second).  In LyX I type ctrl-T to open a view in gv, then every time I
finish editing something I know affects the look, I type ctrl-shft-T,
and the view is updated.

Since I use fluxbox as a window manager, I tab the two apps together,
so no more real estate is lost.  Passing my mouse over the tabs shifts
between LyX and gv.  One could use another desktop for gv, if desired.

Of course, if you're in Windows, you'll have to deal with whatever
limitations are there...  ;-)

Printing specific pages is simple with gv.

Trying to match text is not an issue for me, since gv is always synced
with LyX this way (I see, then I edit directly).  If needed, I'd guess
that you could leave the find box open next to the window...

HTH,


Kenward
-- 
In a completely rational society, the best of us would aspire to be 
_teachers_ and the rest of us would have to settle for something less, 
because passing civilization along from one generation to the next 
ought to be the highest honor and the highest responsibility anyone 
could have. - Lee Iacocca