Re: [M100] Failed "," key

[Brian K. White]

I received the keyswitch.

Below I said
"If simply washing and deoxit doesn't make it work, then..."

And indeed that's all it was.

I included "washing" because we don't know the condition of the machine, 
and past spilled drinks are common, and that requires water to dissolve 
sugar.
As it turned out, the switch was clean and not sticky nor corroded. So 
in this case no washing needed.


Before even using deoxit, I just pressed the key several times while 
hooked up to a meter.
It was dead, but after about 10-15 presses it started working 
intermittently, then got to 100% within another 10-15 presses.


I'm hitting it with deoxit and a bunch more taps before sending it back 
just for good measure, but it's already fine.


Sadly this means I don't get to piece together a good keyswitch from 2 
broken ones after all.


On any machine with those Alps switches (meaning not 102, 200, 600, but 
yes m100, nec, olivetti, kyotronic) if you have keys that seem to be 
dead, the first thing is just press the key a bunch of times. 10, 20, 
50, just tap a bunch of times for several seconds before assuming it's 
actually dead.


--
bkw

On 3/20/24 13:46, Peter Vollan wrote:
Just one thing at this time... took the switch out and checked it with 
a multimeter, it is the switch


On Wed, 20 Mar 2024 at 00:26, Brian K. White  wrote:

I had to search to find:
"There is exactly one key on my m100's keyboard that rufuses to work,
the K key."

What was anyone supposed to do with that?

What I said below and the video wouldn't help with a 100. It only
applies to a 102.

100 has a totally different kind of keyswitch, and no similar easy
possible fix to try, other than just wash the switch with distilled
water (to clean out possible sugars from drinks), then alcohol (to
dry
the water), then deoxit (to refresh the actual copper contacts
inside),
and actuate the switch a bunch of times (after the deoxit soaks a
while,
you also need a little mechanical action to actually scrub away the
oxidized surface).

If simply washing and deoxit doesn't make it work, then you have
to look
for corroded traces, loose solder joints, desolder and disassemble
the
keyswitch itself, maybe replace from ebay (the switches are available
sometimes).

-- 
bkw


On 3/20/24 00:36, Peter Vollan wrote:
> It would have been nice if you guys had helped me out with this
when I
> recently posted that my "K" key had inexplicably quit. I swapped
the
> keycap out with the ESC key because that is rarely used; I
didn't think
> of the extra shift key. Long story short, I overestimated my
abilities
> and thought I had wrecked my unit permanently, but by hook or by
crook,
> and solder bridges and resistor legs, my keyboard was fixed.
Except for
> the escape key. Actually the cassette relay and the modem don't
work,
> but I think that is from changing those resistors and replacing the
> backup battery. Don't see how it could be the keyboard.
>
> On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 08:58, Brian White  > wrote:
>
>     102 has carbon impregnated silicone rubber domes like
calculator or
>     remote buttons.
>
>     With care it's possible to lift the top of the key switch
body off
>     and lift out the rubber dome, and see if the contacts or
button are
>     dirty. Maybe use some deoxit with a q-tip to clean the contacts,
>     maybe clean the carbon pad.
>
>     I had a stuck T key where everything looked fine but the
carbon pad
>     maybe just looked worn. I swapped the rubber dome with the
>     right-shift key (a key that I don't use as much, and has a
duplicate
>     on the left anyway, and was much less worn because all the
previous
>     owners probably used it less than T also) and afterwards not
only
>     did the T work, the right shift still worked!
>
>     To get the keyswitch apart, I don't know how to verbally
describe
>     everything clearly. I made a video
>
> https://youtu.be/n_oyDYRDYzs 
>
>
>     bkw
>
>     On Sun, Mar 17, 2024, 10:47 PM Ronald Hudson      > wrote:
>
>         Hi Everyone--
>
>
>         My 102 has a failed "," key - all the other keys seem to
work so
>         I am
>         guessing it is a bad key or broken trace.
>
>         What say ye?
>
>
>         Thanks!
>
>         Ron.
>

-- 
bkw

Re: [M100] Failed "," key

[Peter Vollan]

Well, I do want to fix my keyboard so that it works 100 per cent. I will
probably take you up on your very generous offer.

On Thu, 21 Mar 2024 at 03:58, Brian K. White  wrote:

> If you can't tease the switch apart to clean up the inside, I can send
> you one.
> I got a set of 5 from ebay a couple years ago but only used one.
> There is a guy selling them right now too, but only in sets of 20 for $40
>
> https://ebay.com/itm/196074860932
>
> Actually, if you send me your bad switch I bet I can repair it with my
> bad switch, because on mine the contacts work fine, the stem is broken
> so it can't hold a keycap. If your step is good, then together that's a
> working switch.
>
> Kinda silly to repair a single keyswitch but, but aren't we all kinda
> silly?
>
> I don't remember where I got the keycap puller, maybe came in an ifixit
> kit? Maybe from a local microcenter?
> The keycap puller is this one. It was nothing special when I got it, but
> now it's more useful than most, because today most pullers have the
> other end has another kind of grabber to pull the switch out of modern
> mechanical keyboards that have removable switches, which is no use on
> anything old or soldered. While this one the back end of the handle is a
> thin flat spudger which is useful.
> https://www.amazon.com/WASD-Keyboards-Wire-Keycap-Puller/dp/B00AZCGF7K
>
> --
> bkw
>
> On 3/20/24 19:13, Peter Vollan wrote:
> > I should have watched your video before I shot my mouth off; now I see
> > that the 102's keyswitches are different that the 100's. Where can I get
> > the keycap tool?
> >
> > On Wed, 20 Mar 2024 at 00:26, Brian K. White  > > wrote:
> >
> > I had to search to find:
> > "There is exactly one key on my m100's keyboard that rufuses to work,
> > the K key."
> >
> > What was anyone supposed to do with that?
> >
> > What I said below and the video wouldn't help with a 100. It only
> > applies to a 102.
> >
> > 100 has a totally different kind of keyswitch, and no similar easy
> > possible fix to try, other than just wash the switch with distilled
> > water (to clean out possible sugars from drinks), then alcohol (to
> dry
> > the water), then deoxit (to refresh the actual copper contacts
> inside),
> > and actuate the switch a bunch of times (after the deoxit soaks a
> > while,
> > you also need a little mechanical action to actually scrub away the
> > oxidized surface).
> >
> > If simply washing and deoxit doesn't make it work, then you have to
> > look
> > for corroded traces, loose solder joints, desolder and disassemble
> the
> > keyswitch itself, maybe replace from ebay (the switches are available
> > sometimes).
> >
> > --
> > bkw
> >
> > On 3/20/24 00:36, Peter Vollan wrote:
> >  > It would have been nice if you guys had helped me out with this
> > when I
> >  > recently posted that my "K" key had inexplicably quit. I swapped
> the
> >  > keycap out with the ESC key because that is rarely used; I didn't
> > think
> >  > of the extra shift key. Long story short, I overestimated my
> > abilities
> >  > and thought I had wrecked my unit permanently, but by hook or by
> > crook,
> >  > and solder bridges and resistor legs, my keyboard was fixed.
> > Except for
> >  > the escape key. Actually the cassette relay and the modem don't
> > work,
> >  > but I think that is from changing those resistors and replacing
> the
> >  > backup battery. Don't see how it could be the keyboard.
> >  >
> >  > On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 08:58, Brian White  > 
> >  > >>
> wrote:
> >  >
> >  > 102 has carbon impregnated silicone rubber domes like
> > calculator or
> >  > remote buttons.
> >  >
> >  > With care it's possible to lift the top of the key switch
> > body off
> >  > and lift out the rubber dome, and see if the contacts or
> > button are
> >  > dirty. Maybe use some deoxit with a q-tip to clean the
> contacts,
> >  > maybe clean the carbon pad.
> >  >
> >  > I had a stuck T key where everything looked fine but the
> > carbon pad
> >  > maybe just looked worn. I swapped the rubber dome with the
> >  > right-shift key (a key that I don't use as much, and has a
> > duplicate
> >  > on the left anyway, and was much less worn because all the
> > previous
> >  > owners probably used it less than T also) and afterwards not
> only
> >  > did the T work, the right shift still worked!
> >  >
> >  > To get the keyswitch apart, I don't know how to verbally
> describe
> >  > everything clearly. I made a video
> >  >
> >  > https://youtu.be/n_oyDYRDYzs 
> > 

Re: [M100] Failed "," key

[Brian K. White]

If you can't tease the switch apart to clean up the inside, I can send 
you one.

I got a set of 5 from ebay a couple years ago but only used one.
There is a guy selling them right now too, but only in sets of 20 for $40

https://ebay.com/itm/196074860932

Actually, if you send me your bad switch I bet I can repair it with my 
bad switch, because on mine the contacts work fine, the stem is broken 
so it can't hold a keycap. If your step is good, then together that's a 
working switch.


Kinda silly to repair a single keyswitch but, but aren't we all kinda silly?

I don't remember where I got the keycap puller, maybe came in an ifixit 
kit? Maybe from a local microcenter?
The keycap puller is this one. It was nothing special when I got it, but 
now it's more useful than most, because today most pullers have the 
other end has another kind of grabber to pull the switch out of modern 
mechanical keyboards that have removable switches, which is no use on 
anything old or soldered. While this one the back end of the handle is a 
thin flat spudger which is useful.

https://www.amazon.com/WASD-Keyboards-Wire-Keycap-Puller/dp/B00AZCGF7K

--
bkw

On 3/20/24 19:13, Peter Vollan wrote:
I should have watched your video before I shot my mouth off; now I see 
that the 102's keyswitches are different that the 100's. Where can I get 
the keycap tool?


On Wed, 20 Mar 2024 at 00:26, Brian K. White > wrote:


I had to search to find:
"There is exactly one key on my m100's keyboard that rufuses to work,
the K key."

What was anyone supposed to do with that?

What I said below and the video wouldn't help with a 100. It only
applies to a 102.

100 has a totally different kind of keyswitch, and no similar easy
possible fix to try, other than just wash the switch with distilled
water (to clean out possible sugars from drinks), then alcohol (to dry
the water), then deoxit (to refresh the actual copper contacts inside),
and actuate the switch a bunch of times (after the deoxit soaks a
while,
you also need a little mechanical action to actually scrub away the
oxidized surface).

If simply washing and deoxit doesn't make it work, then you have to
look
for corroded traces, loose solder joints, desolder and disassemble the
keyswitch itself, maybe replace from ebay (the switches are available
sometimes).

-- 
bkw


On 3/20/24 00:36, Peter Vollan wrote:
 > It would have been nice if you guys had helped me out with this
when I
 > recently posted that my "K" key had inexplicably quit. I swapped the
 > keycap out with the ESC key because that is rarely used; I didn't
think
 > of the extra shift key. Long story short, I overestimated my
abilities
 > and thought I had wrecked my unit permanently, but by hook or by
crook,
 > and solder bridges and resistor legs, my keyboard was fixed.
Except for
 > the escape key. Actually the cassette relay and the modem don't
work,
 > but I think that is from changing those resistors and replacing the
 > backup battery. Don't see how it could be the keyboard.
 >
 > On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 08:58, Brian White mailto:b.kenyo...@gmail.com>
 > >> wrote:
 >
 >     102 has carbon impregnated silicone rubber domes like
calculator or
 >     remote buttons.
 >
 >     With care it's possible to lift the top of the key switch
body off
 >     and lift out the rubber dome, and see if the contacts or
button are
 >     dirty. Maybe use some deoxit with a q-tip to clean the contacts,
 >     maybe clean the carbon pad.
 >
 >     I had a stuck T key where everything looked fine but the
carbon pad
 >     maybe just looked worn. I swapped the rubber dome with the
 >     right-shift key (a key that I don't use as much, and has a
duplicate
 >     on the left anyway, and was much less worn because all the
previous
 >     owners probably used it less than T also) and afterwards not only
 >     did the T work, the right shift still worked!
 >
 >     To get the keyswitch apart, I don't know how to verbally describe
 >     everything clearly. I made a video
 >
 > https://youtu.be/n_oyDYRDYzs 
>
 >
 >
 >     bkw
 >
 >     On Sun, Mar 17, 2024, 10:47 PM Ronald Hudson
mailto:hudson...@live.com>
 >     >> wrote:
 >
 >         Hi Everyone--
 >
 >
 >         My 102 has a failed "," key - all the other keys seem to
work so
 >         I am
 >         guessing it is a bad key or broken trace.
 >
 >         What say ye?
 >
 >
 >         Thanks!
 >
 >         Ron.
 

Re: [M100] Failed "," key

[Peter Vollan]

I should have watched your video before I shot my mouth off; now I see that
the 102's keyswitches are different that the 100's. Where can I get the
keycap tool?

On Wed, 20 Mar 2024 at 00:26, Brian K. White  wrote:

> I had to search to find:
> "There is exactly one key on my m100's keyboard that rufuses to work,
> the K key."
>
> What was anyone supposed to do with that?
>
> What I said below and the video wouldn't help with a 100. It only
> applies to a 102.
>
> 100 has a totally different kind of keyswitch, and no similar easy
> possible fix to try, other than just wash the switch with distilled
> water (to clean out possible sugars from drinks), then alcohol (to dry
> the water), then deoxit (to refresh the actual copper contacts inside),
> and actuate the switch a bunch of times (after the deoxit soaks a while,
> you also need a little mechanical action to actually scrub away the
> oxidized surface).
>
> If simply washing and deoxit doesn't make it work, then you have to look
> for corroded traces, loose solder joints, desolder and disassemble the
> keyswitch itself, maybe replace from ebay (the switches are available
> sometimes).
>
> --
> bkw
>
> On 3/20/24 00:36, Peter Vollan wrote:
> > It would have been nice if you guys had helped me out with this when I
> > recently posted that my "K" key had inexplicably quit. I swapped the
> > keycap out with the ESC key because that is rarely used; I didn't think
> > of the extra shift key. Long story short, I overestimated my abilities
> > and thought I had wrecked my unit permanently, but by hook or by crook,
> > and solder bridges and resistor legs, my keyboard was fixed. Except for
> > the escape key. Actually the cassette relay and the modem don't work,
> > but I think that is from changing those resistors and replacing the
> > backup battery. Don't see how it could be the keyboard.
> >
> > On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 08:58, Brian White  > > wrote:
> >
> > 102 has carbon impregnated silicone rubber domes like calculator or
> > remote buttons.
> >
> > With care it's possible to lift the top of the key switch body off
> > and lift out the rubber dome, and see if the contacts or button are
> > dirty. Maybe use some deoxit with a q-tip to clean the contacts,
> > maybe clean the carbon pad.
> >
> > I had a stuck T key where everything looked fine but the carbon pad
> > maybe just looked worn. I swapped the rubber dome with the
> > right-shift key (a key that I don't use as much, and has a duplicate
> > on the left anyway, and was much less worn because all the previous
> > owners probably used it less than T also) and afterwards not only
> > did the T work, the right shift still worked!
> >
> > To get the keyswitch apart, I don't know how to verbally describe
> > everything clearly. I made a video
> >
> > https://youtu.be/n_oyDYRDYzs 
> >
> >
> > bkw
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 17, 2024, 10:47 PM Ronald Hudson  > > wrote:
> >
> > Hi Everyone--
> >
> >
> > My 102 has a failed "," key - all the other keys seem to work so
> > I am
> > guessing it is a bad key or broken trace.
> >
> > What say ye?
> >
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Ron.
> >
>
> --
> bkw
>
>

Re: [M100] Failed "," key

[Peter Vollan]

Just one thing at this time... took the switch out and checked it with a
multimeter, it is the switch

On Wed, 20 Mar 2024 at 00:26, Brian K. White  wrote:

> I had to search to find:
> "There is exactly one key on my m100's keyboard that rufuses to work,
> the K key."
>
> What was anyone supposed to do with that?
>
> What I said below and the video wouldn't help with a 100. It only
> applies to a 102.
>
> 100 has a totally different kind of keyswitch, and no similar easy
> possible fix to try, other than just wash the switch with distilled
> water (to clean out possible sugars from drinks), then alcohol (to dry
> the water), then deoxit (to refresh the actual copper contacts inside),
> and actuate the switch a bunch of times (after the deoxit soaks a while,
> you also need a little mechanical action to actually scrub away the
> oxidized surface).
>
> If simply washing and deoxit doesn't make it work, then you have to look
> for corroded traces, loose solder joints, desolder and disassemble the
> keyswitch itself, maybe replace from ebay (the switches are available
> sometimes).
>
> --
> bkw
>
> On 3/20/24 00:36, Peter Vollan wrote:
> > It would have been nice if you guys had helped me out with this when I
> > recently posted that my "K" key had inexplicably quit. I swapped the
> > keycap out with the ESC key because that is rarely used; I didn't think
> > of the extra shift key. Long story short, I overestimated my abilities
> > and thought I had wrecked my unit permanently, but by hook or by crook,
> > and solder bridges and resistor legs, my keyboard was fixed. Except for
> > the escape key. Actually the cassette relay and the modem don't work,
> > but I think that is from changing those resistors and replacing the
> > backup battery. Don't see how it could be the keyboard.
> >
> > On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 08:58, Brian White  > > wrote:
> >
> > 102 has carbon impregnated silicone rubber domes like calculator or
> > remote buttons.
> >
> > With care it's possible to lift the top of the key switch body off
> > and lift out the rubber dome, and see if the contacts or button are
> > dirty. Maybe use some deoxit with a q-tip to clean the contacts,
> > maybe clean the carbon pad.
> >
> > I had a stuck T key where everything looked fine but the carbon pad
> > maybe just looked worn. I swapped the rubber dome with the
> > right-shift key (a key that I don't use as much, and has a duplicate
> > on the left anyway, and was much less worn because all the previous
> > owners probably used it less than T also) and afterwards not only
> > did the T work, the right shift still worked!
> >
> > To get the keyswitch apart, I don't know how to verbally describe
> > everything clearly. I made a video
> >
> > https://youtu.be/n_oyDYRDYzs 
> >
> >
> > bkw
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 17, 2024, 10:47 PM Ronald Hudson  > > wrote:
> >
> > Hi Everyone--
> >
> >
> > My 102 has a failed "," key - all the other keys seem to work so
> > I am
> > guessing it is a bad key or broken trace.
> >
> > What say ye?
> >
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Ron.
> >
>
> --
> bkw
>
>

Re: [M100] Failed "," key

[Brian K. White]

I had to search to find:
"There is exactly one key on my m100's keyboard that rufuses to work, 
the K key."


What was anyone supposed to do with that?

What I said below and the video wouldn't help with a 100. It only 
applies to a 102.


100 has a totally different kind of keyswitch, and no similar easy 
possible fix to try, other than just wash the switch with distilled 
water (to clean out possible sugars from drinks), then alcohol (to dry 
the water), then deoxit (to refresh the actual copper contacts inside), 
and actuate the switch a bunch of times (after the deoxit soaks a while, 
you also need a little mechanical action to actually scrub away the 
oxidized surface).


If simply washing and deoxit doesn't make it work, then you have to look 
for corroded traces, loose solder joints, desolder and disassemble the 
keyswitch itself, maybe replace from ebay (the switches are available 
sometimes).


--
bkw

On 3/20/24 00:36, Peter Vollan wrote:
It would have been nice if you guys had helped me out with this when I 
recently posted that my "K" key had inexplicably quit. I swapped the 
keycap out with the ESC key because that is rarely used; I didn't think 
of the extra shift key. Long story short, I overestimated my abilities 
and thought I had wrecked my unit permanently, but by hook or by crook, 
and solder bridges and resistor legs, my keyboard was fixed. Except for 
the escape key. Actually the cassette relay and the modem don't work, 
but I think that is from changing those resistors and replacing the 
backup battery. Don't see how it could be the keyboard.


On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 08:58, Brian White > wrote:


102 has carbon impregnated silicone rubber domes like calculator or
remote buttons.

With care it's possible to lift the top of the key switch body off
and lift out the rubber dome, and see if the contacts or button are
dirty. Maybe use some deoxit with a q-tip to clean the contacts,
maybe clean the carbon pad.

I had a stuck T key where everything looked fine but the carbon pad
maybe just looked worn. I swapped the rubber dome with the
right-shift key (a key that I don't use as much, and has a duplicate
on the left anyway, and was much less worn because all the previous
owners probably used it less than T also) and afterwards not only
did the T work, the right shift still worked!

To get the keyswitch apart, I don't know how to verbally describe
everything clearly. I made a video

https://youtu.be/n_oyDYRDYzs 


bkw

On Sun, Mar 17, 2024, 10:47 PM Ronald Hudson mailto:hudson...@live.com>> wrote:

Hi Everyone--


My 102 has a failed "," key - all the other keys seem to work so
I am
guessing it is a bad key or broken trace.

What say ye?


Thanks!

Ron.



--
bkw

Re: [M100] Failed "," key

[Peter Vollan]

It would have been nice if you guys had helped me out with this when I
recently posted that my "K" key had inexplicably quit. I swapped the keycap
out with the ESC key because that is rarely used; I didn't think of the
extra shift key. Long story short, I overestimated my abilities and thought
I had wrecked my unit permanently, but by hook or by crook, and solder
bridges and resistor legs, my keyboard was fixed. Except for the escape
key. Actually the cassette relay and the modem don't work, but I think that
is from changing those resistors and replacing the backup battery. Don't
see how it could be the keyboard.

On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 at 08:58, Brian White  wrote:

> 102 has carbon impregnated silicone rubber domes like calculator or remote
> buttons.
>
> With care it's possible to lift the top of the key switch body off and
> lift out the rubber dome, and see if the contacts or button are dirty.
> Maybe use some deoxit with a q-tip to clean the contacts, maybe clean the
> carbon pad.
>
> I had a stuck T key where everything looked fine but the carbon pad maybe
> just looked worn. I swapped the rubber dome with the right-shift key (a key
> that I don't use as much, and has a duplicate on the left anyway, and was
> much less worn because all the previous owners probably used it less than T
> also) and afterwards not only did the T work, the right shift still worked!
>
> To get the keyswitch apart, I don't know how to verbally describe
> everything clearly. I made a video
>
> https://youtu.be/n_oyDYRDYzs
>
>
> bkw
>
> On Sun, Mar 17, 2024, 10:47 PM Ronald Hudson  wrote:
>
>> Hi Everyone--
>>
>>
>> My 102 has a failed "," key - all the other keys seem to work so I am
>> guessing it is a bad key or broken trace.
>>
>> What say ye?
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Ron.
>>
>>

Re: [M100] Failed "," key

[Brian White]

102 has carbon impregnated silicone rubber domes like calculator or remote
buttons.

With care it's possible to lift the top of the key switch body off and lift
out the rubber dome, and see if the contacts or button are dirty. Maybe use
some deoxit with a q-tip to clean the contacts, maybe clean the carbon pad.

I had a stuck T key where everything looked fine but the carbon pad maybe
just looked worn. I swapped the rubber dome with the right-shift key (a key
that I don't use as much, and has a duplicate on the left anyway, and was
much less worn because all the previous owners probably used it less than T
also) and afterwards not only did the T work, the right shift still worked!

To get the keyswitch apart, I don't know how to verbally describe
everything clearly. I made a video

https://youtu.be/n_oyDYRDYzs


bkw

On Sun, Mar 17, 2024, 10:47 PM Ronald Hudson  wrote:

> Hi Everyone--
>
>
> My 102 has a failed "," key - all the other keys seem to work so I am
> guessing it is a bad key or broken trace.
>
> What say ye?
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Ron.
>
>

Re: [M100] Failed "," key

[David Plass]

Using a continuity tester you can test it in-circuit to see if it's the
switch or not. If it's the switch, desolder and replace. If it's not the
switch, it's a trace.

On Sun, Mar 17, 2024 at 10:48 PM Ronald Hudson  wrote:

> Hi Everyone--
>
>
> My 102 has a failed "," key - all the other keys seem to work so I am
> guessing it is a bad key or broken trace.
>
> What say ye?
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Ron.
>
>

[M100] Failed "," key

[Ronald Hudson]

Hi Everyone--


My 102 has a failed "," key - all the other keys seem to work so I am 
guessing it is a bad key or broken trace.


What say ye?


Thanks!

Ron.