Re: Tavles: Serious bug with Voiceover

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

David,

Frankly even in Bean, I can't read tables.  Not only can't I read them in 
Bean, I can't even create them!  The dialog that lets me do so is really 
strange.  When I open it, I try either with the stepper, or with manually 
typing into the text box the number of rows I need in the table.  As soon as 
I do, everything including the rows box I just tried typing into gets 
dimmed.  Not only that, but the row text box where I typed in that I 
wanted... say... 3 rows, not only gets dimmed along with everything else, 
but even odder, it resets itself to 0 rows, and basically sets all other 
values as well to 0.  It's totally! cockeyed!  I don't get it!


Thank you kindly,

Christopher-Mark Gilland.
Founder of CLG Productions
- Original Message - 
From: "David Griffith" 

To: "'Mac OSX & iOS Accessibility'" 
Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 2:35 AM
Subject: RE: Tavles: Serious bug with Voiceover


This is, unfortunately, one of the reasons why I have not been able to 
move
completely from Windows to a Mac environment. Support from Voiceover here 
is

frankly dreadful.  As I understand it this is a long running issue which
Apple has failed to fix.

There are various clunky workarounds including using the Numbers 
spreadsheet

to read your tables, and using service commands to open the table and read
it in Text Edit. I also found that there is sometimes some basic reading
support for Tables in the free Bean Word  Processor.

This is OK for the occasional  table but if you have to seriously handle 
and

read tables  on a consistent basis with full title and row header reading
support, I do not think there is a viable Mac solution at the moment.  For
example I am currently conducting a disciplinary investigation which
involves  receiving multiple pages of evidence, many of which contain 
audit
and other data in table format. My only practical way of handling this is 
to

return to windows.

Safari can handle tables pretty well so I am sure it could be technically
achieved. It is a shame really and is so essential for serious work I 
cannot

understand why Apple have not addressed this rather than focussing on the
latest visual effect.

David Griffith

-Original Message-
From: mac-access-boun...@mac-access.net
[mailto:mac-access-boun...@mac-access.net] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark
Gilland
Sent: 28 November 2012 00:37
To: mac-access@mac-access.net
Subject: Tavles: Serious bug with Voiceover
Importance: High

Hello.
I am hoping that someone from Mac-Access can help me.

I have been writing a document in Pages regarding a few topics which I am
researching. One of the things that I need to accomplish is to insert a
table into my document. I have correctly inserted the table at the 
position

of my insertion point, and then proceeded to enter the table's data. I am
determining however that Voiceover is refusing to read anything within the
table area. If I use my arrow keys to navigate through the document, I 
only

hear "new line" when the table is found.

I have attempted using VO+R as well as VO+Command+C in order to better
understand where I am located in the table. I have also tried tabbing and
Shift+tabbing through the document, in hope of finding something
identifiable. Finally, I have even tried pressing CTRL+Command+T to move 
to

the next table. This presented no success.

I have attempted to create tables with Pages as well as with Text Edit and
have experienced this strange behavior using both applications. Any help
with this issue would be appreciated. Have a pleasant day.

Cordially,
Chris Gilland.

<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->

To reply to this post, please address your message to
mac-access@mac-access.net

You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum 
at

either the list's own dedicated web archive:
<http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html>
or at the public Mail Archive:
<http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>.
Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
<http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xml>

The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus
and worm-free!

Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting
the list website at:
<http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/mac-access/options/>

<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->

To reply to this post, please address your message to 
mac-access@mac-access.net


You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum 
at either the list's own dedicated web archive:

<http://mail.tft-bbs.co.uk/pipermail/mac-access/index.html>
or at the public Mail Archive:
<http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/>.
Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
<http://www.mail-archive.com/mac-access@mac-access.net/maillist.xm

RE: Tavles: Serious bug with Voiceover

[David Griffith]

This is, unfortunately, one of the reasons why I have not been able to move
completely from Windows to a Mac environment. Support from Voiceover here is
frankly dreadful.  As I understand it this is a long running issue which
Apple has failed to fix.

There are various clunky workarounds including using the Numbers spreadsheet
to read your tables, and using service commands to open the table and read
it in Text Edit. I also found that there is sometimes some basic reading
support for Tables in the free Bean Word  Processor.

This is OK for the occasional  table but if you have to seriously handle and
read tables  on a consistent basis with full title and row header reading
support, I do not think there is a viable Mac solution at the moment.  For
example I am currently conducting a disciplinary investigation which
involves  receiving multiple pages of evidence, many of which contain audit
and other data in table format. My only practical way of handling this is to
return to windows.

Safari can handle tables pretty well so I am sure it could be technically
achieved. It is a shame really and is so essential for serious work I cannot
understand why Apple have not addressed this rather than focussing on the
latest visual effect.

David Griffith

-Original Message-
From: mac-access-boun...@mac-access.net
[mailto:mac-access-boun...@mac-access.net] On Behalf Of Christopher-Mark
Gilland
Sent: 28 November 2012 00:37
To: mac-access@mac-access.net
Subject: Tavles: Serious bug with Voiceover
Importance: High

Hello.
I am hoping that someone from Mac-Access can help me.

I have been writing a document in Pages regarding a few topics which I am
researching. One of the things that I need to accomplish is to insert a
table into my document. I have correctly inserted the table at the position
of my insertion point, and then proceeded to enter the table's data. I am
determining however that Voiceover is refusing to read anything within the
table area. If I use my arrow keys to navigate through the document, I only
hear "new line" when the table is found.

I have attempted using VO+R as well as VO+Command+C in order to better
understand where I am located in the table. I have also tried tabbing and
Shift+tabbing through the document, in hope of finding something
identifiable. Finally, I have even tried pressing CTRL+Command+T to move to
the next table. This presented no success.

I have attempted to create tables with Pages as well as with Text Edit and
have experienced this strange behavior using both applications. Any help
with this issue would be appreciated. Have a pleasant day.

Cordially,
Chris Gilland. 

<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->

To reply to this post, please address your message to
mac-access@mac-access.net

You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at
either the list's own dedicated web archive:

or at the public Mail Archive:
.
Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:


The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus
and worm-free!

Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting
the list website at:


<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->

To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net

You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
either the list's own dedicated web archive:

or at the public Mail Archive:
.
Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:


The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
worm-free!

Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting the 
list website at:

Use "New TextEdit window from selection" service to read tables [was Re: Tavles: Serious bug with Voiceover]

[Esther]

Hi Chris,

If you check the box for the Services menu option, "New TextEdit window 
containing selection" to make this one of your active service menu options, 
then optionally assign a shortcut to this, you can select the page containing 
your document (or even the whole paper), and then choose the "New TextEdit 
window containing selection" option from the Services menu, and VoiceOver will 
read everything you selected in a TextEdit Window, including any embedded 
tables or lists. This will work to read tables in Pages, Nisus Writer Pro, etc. 
I've posted pretty extensively about this on both the Mac-access list and on 
the Macvisionaries list, Using the built-in Services menu option, as opposed to 
trying to copy and paste selected text, removes non-text elements in your 
selection, including embedding control characters used by tables that 
apparently keep VoiceOver from separately reading and navigating the tables.

I'm not at my computer now, so please do an archive search if you want 
explicit, step-by-step instructions.  The services menu shortcuts are under 
System Preferences > keyboard but the fast way to get exactly to the right 
location in the keyboard shortcuts pane, with the entry for services already 
selected in the first table, is to go to the Services menu on your menu bar 
from any application, and arrow down to "Services Preferences".  Start there, 
navigate to the second table so you can check this services menu option, and 
optionally assign it a shortcut key.

HTH.  Cheers,

Esther

On Nov 27, 2012, at 3:08 PM, Josh Gregory  wrote:

> I am pretty sure the tables and voiceover have been a long-standing issue 
> with the Mac. I knew that it couldn't read the titles of  tables, but I 
> didn't know that In certain cases it couldn't read the actual data. I'm sorry 
> I'm not posting anything helpful here, I'm just saying that I know how you 
> feel when it comes to things like this.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Nov 27, 2012, at 7:37 PM, "Christopher-Mark Gilland" 
>  wrote:
> 
>> Hello.
>> I am hoping that someone from Mac-Access can help me.
>> 
>> I have been writing a document in Pages regarding a few topics which I am
>> researching. One of the things that I need to accomplish is to insert a
>> table into my document. I have correctly inserted the table at the position
>> of my insertion point, and then proceeded to enter the table's data. I am
>> determining however that Voiceover is refusing to read anything within the
>> table area. If I use my arrow keys to navigate through the document, I only
>> hear "new line" when the table is found.
>> 
>> I have attempted using VO+R as well as VO+Command+C in order to better
>> understand where I am located in the table. I have also tried tabbing and
>> Shift+tabbing through the document, in hope of finding something
>> identifiable. Finally, I have even tried pressing CTRL+Command+T to move to
>> the next table. This presented no success.
>> 
>> I have attempted to create tables with Pages as well as with Text Edit and
>> have experienced this strange behavior using both applications. Any help
>> with this issue would be appreciated. Have a pleasant day.
>> 
>> Cordially,
>> Chris Gilland. 
>> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
>> 
>> To reply to this post, please address your message to 
>> mac-access@mac-access.net
>> 
>> You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
>> either the list's own dedicated web archive:
>> 
>> or at the public Mail Archive:
>> .
>> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
>> 
>> 
>> The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus 
>> and worm-free!
>> 
>> Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting 
>> the list website at:
>> 
> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
> 
> To reply to this post, please address your message to 
> mac-access@mac-access.net
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
> either the list's own dedicated web archive:
> 
> or at the public Mail Archive:
> .
> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
> 
> 
> The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
> worm-free!
> 
> Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting 
> the list website at:
> 
<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->

To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net

You can find an archive of all messag

Re: Tavles: Serious bug with Voiceover

[Josh Gregory]

I am pretty sure the tables and voiceover have been a long-standing issue with 
the Mac. I knew that it couldn't read the titles of  tables, but I didn't know 
that In certain cases it couldn't read the actual data. I'm sorry I'm not 
posting anything helpful here, I'm just saying that I know how you feel when it 
comes to things like this.

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 27, 2012, at 7:37 PM, "Christopher-Mark Gilland" 
 wrote:

> Hello.
> I am hoping that someone from Mac-Access can help me.
> 
> I have been writing a document in Pages regarding a few topics which I am
> researching. One of the things that I need to accomplish is to insert a
> table into my document. I have correctly inserted the table at the position
> of my insertion point, and then proceeded to enter the table's data. I am
> determining however that Voiceover is refusing to read anything within the
> table area. If I use my arrow keys to navigate through the document, I only
> hear "new line" when the table is found.
> 
> I have attempted using VO+R as well as VO+Command+C in order to better
> understand where I am located in the table. I have also tried tabbing and
> Shift+tabbing through the document, in hope of finding something
> identifiable. Finally, I have even tried pressing CTRL+Command+T to move to
> the next table. This presented no success.
> 
> I have attempted to create tables with Pages as well as with Text Edit and
> have experienced this strange behavior using both applications. Any help
> with this issue would be appreciated. Have a pleasant day.
> 
> Cordially,
> Chris Gilland. 
> <--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->
> 
> To reply to this post, please address your message to 
> mac-access@mac-access.net
> 
> You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
> either the list's own dedicated web archive:
> 
> or at the public Mail Archive:
> .
> Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:
> 
> 
> The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
> worm-free!
> 
> Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting 
> the list website at:
> 
<--- Mac Access At Mac Access Dot Net --->

To reply to this post, please address your message to mac-access@mac-access.net

You can find an archive of all messages postedto the Mac-Access forum at 
either the list's own dedicated web archive:

or at the public Mail Archive:
.
Subscribe to the list's RSS feed from:


The Mac-Access mailing list is guaranteed malware, spyware, Trojan, virus and 
worm-free!

Please remember to update your membership options periodically by visiting the 
list website at: