RE: [Machinekit] Seeed to design and build Machinekit focused Cape for BeagleBone Black/AI

[John Dammeyer]

Although the subject talks about SeeedStudio let's leave that part alone for a 
moment and discuss what the Beagle's part is in all this.
 
I'd like to take everyone back to geometry learned in school.  SQRT(X^2+Y^2) = 
hypotenuse of a right angle triangle.   When we look at velocity we can use the 
same math.  If both X and Y axis are moved at 12 IPM then the movement along 
that path happens at 16.97 IPM.  SQRT(144+144).  
 
So when you set a G-Code value of F12 and execute a move with G1 set then X and 
Y will _not_ move at 12 IPM.  First the distance of each axis is determined.  
Assume for this example it's the same distance of 12".  That means the total 
distance moved along the hypotenuse is 16.97" and as we move along that path we 
want that to be done at 12 IPM because of the F12.
 
Well that's (144) = (X^2+Y^2) or in this case because we have a 45 degree angle 
with equal X and Y it's SQRT(144/2) = SQRT(72) = 8.48 IPM.  So both X and Y 
will be moved at 8.48 IPM.   (in really we use the cos and sin of the angle to 
proportion the speed to achieve the F speed value.
 
It's more complicated than that if the acceleration for each motor is 
different.  So the simple path planner will use the lowest acceleration and 
make both motors accelerate at that speed so they move at the same rate per 
second per second to reach the velocity.  Same with deceleration.  
 
Once this has been calculated the next question is how to translate a real 
world velocity (IPM) into steps per second.  Once again not really hard if the 
reduction drive on each axis is identical.  A bit harder if one uses 4:1 and 
the other uses 3:1.  
 
Now the software has to decide when to create each step pulse.  Assuming both 
axis require the same number of steps to move 1 inch (0.2" per rev and 10 
uSteps/Step = 2000 steps per rev = or 2000 steps to move 0.2")
 
We're asking for 12 IPM which is 0.2" per second so that's 2000 steps per 
second.  That's a step pulse every 500 uS.  Our DMA clock is set to run at 1MHz 
spitting out the 16 bits into the SPI device so we get a 1uS long step pulse.
 
Or in simple terms we get one 16 bit packet, with X and Y STEP pins both set 
high and another packet with X and Y STEP pins set low .  Then the next 498 
packets do not change the X and Y step pins.  So for one second of data we need 
at 1000 byte array with 500 values where only one of those has X and Y set 
high.  We need a second 1000 byte array with 500 values for the next 1 second 
worth of messages.  
 
The trajectory planner has one second to populate the array.  The DMA 
controller signals when it switches to the next array and we ping pong back and 
forth.  When there isn't any motion the array just has the DIR pins and the 
COOLANT pins set to their previous values.  The output doesn't appear to change 
even though the SPI hardware is loaded by the DMA hardware to spit out new data 
at a 10Mhz rate.
 
The question is…who and what populates the array and when and how.
 
John Dammeyer
 
 
 
 
 
From: machinekit@googlegroups.com [mailto:machinekit@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of John Dammeyer
Sent: March-12-20 4:59 PM
To: 'Machinekit'
Cc: beaglebo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Machinekit] Seeed to design and build Machinekit focused Cape for 
BeagleBone Black/AI
 
One has to be careful here not to spec in a 10 ton dump truck for that once a 
year 500 lb utility trailer load of peat moss for the garden.  For one thing 
they are hard to parallel park and really expensive for fuel.
 
There already exists, and will for some time, systems that can handle multiple 
spindles, closed loop control of the encoders back to the PC along with 
multiple FPGA controlled I/O and smart serial motor control for these 
retrofitted large commercial milling machines.  Those users will never ever 
install a BBB with a cape that has slow HMDI screen updates and limited I/O.
 
So forget them.
 
By the same token, the customers who are using Ardunio based duos or whatever 
the latest flavour is for their 3D printers are also of no interest.  If they 
were we'd have seen the Replicape on a BBB become the standard with Machinekit 
or Linux as the backbone.  Hasn't happened.  Won't happen.  Not sure why.  
Probably price.
 
So what is the target market for this type of product?  Well who is buying the 
ready to go $200 to $500 CNC boxes in China and for what machines? 
 
If I were to venture a guess I'd say the ones that are about this size:
https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-7-x-27-1-HP-Mill-Drill-with-Stand/G0704
 
They come in all sorts of flavours.  They are generally driven open loop with 
stepper motors and require only a spindle sensor for quadrature and maybe a 
second quadrature input for an MPG control although those can be had pretty 
inexpensively as USB devices.  And to tell you the truth I really like my 
ShuttleExpress over the USB MPG pendant. 
 
As along as the BoB has a FAULT input, which I forgot to put on my previous 
list, you can eve

RE: [Machinekit] Seeed to design and build Machinekit focused Cape for BeagleBone Black/AI

[John Dammeyer]

One has to be careful here not to spec in a 10 ton dump truck for that once a 
year 500 lb utility trailer load of peat moss for the garden.  For one thing 
they are hard to parallel park and really expensive for fuel.
 
There already exists, and will for some time, systems that can handle multiple 
spindles, closed loop control of the encoders back to the PC along with 
multiple FPGA controlled I/O and smart serial motor control for these 
retrofitted large commercial milling machines.  Those users will never ever 
install a BBB with a cape that has slow HMDI screen updates and limited I/O.
 
So forget them.
 
By the same token, the customers who are using Ardunio based duos or whatever 
the latest flavour is for their 3D printers are also of no interest.  If they 
were we'd have seen the Replicape on a BBB become the standard with Machinekit 
or Linux as the backbone.  Hasn't happened.  Won't happen.  Not sure why.  
Probably price.
 
So what is the target market for this type of product?  Well who is buying the 
ready to go $200 to $500 CNC boxes in China and for what machines? 
 
If I were to venture a guess I'd say the ones that are about this size:
https://www.grizzly.com/products/Grizzly-7-x-27-1-HP-Mill-Drill-with-Stand/G0704
 
They come in all sorts of flavours.  They are generally driven open loop with 
stepper motors and require only a spindle sensor for quadrature and maybe a 
second quadrature input for an MPG control although those can be had pretty 
inexpensively as USB devices.  And to tell you the truth I really like my 
ShuttleExpress over the USB MPG pendant. 
 
As along as the BoB has a FAULT input, which I forgot to put on my previous 
list, you can even use intelligent drives like the step-servos that close the 
loop but provide a FAULT output when something goes wrong.  My STMBL, Bergerda 
and HP_UHU drives all have that.  I think the GECKO I have on the KNEE also 
does but I'm not using it at the moment.  All open collector outputs that pull 
the signal low when a fault occurs.
 
Anyway, that size of a machine and the price tag associated with it will set 
the price of the CNC conversion.  Most of the cost is in the mechanics and the 
electricals.  
 
So two PRU accessed quadrature inputs are more than enough to close the loop 
for power tapping as long as the spindle speed control is responsive.
 
About the only limitation I see in my list is that 500kHz stepping is really 
fast.  I used that number because that's the step rate for the Bergerda AC 
servos with the 2500 line encoder.That math works out to 10,000 edges per 
revolution and 3000 RPM is 50 RPS which means a 1:1 ratio is 500kHz.  The 
Bergerda can scale the step pulses in order to match the encoder with slower 
step rates.  I don't know if the STMBL AC Servo drive can do that.  Pretty sure 
the HP_UHU with the dsPIC can or almost can.
 
But for this target market, using standard stepper motors with micro-stepping 
drives we're back to 25kHz max before we see the motor torque drop off to a 
point where step speed doesn't matter.  And if you are using the step-servos 
the selection of the encoder will determine what's required.
 
So I'll agree with Chris that it's the I/O on the BBB that is the limiting 
factor.  But 10MHz SPI bus could take care of that. 
 
What I would do is use the PRU to load the DMA device to write two bytes to and 
read two bytes from the SPI port at a 1MHz rate.  It's the BBB's main 
processors responsibility to keep this filled or to stall it with step levels 
low and dir at last used value.  
 
The trajectory planner is responsible for setting the step pulses ON within the 
two byte packet to send out the SPI port.  The next two bytes hold the 
direction and drop the STEP.  Any other outputs on that buffer will also be 
left as is.  
 
Now you have hardware generating 6 pairs of step/dir as high as 500kHz.  The 
amount of time the 8th pair is ON and OFF is dependent on the PWM frequency and 
PWM pulse period within that frequency.   It's a simple matter of keeping the 
queues with this information full and default values when they aren't.
 
John Dammeyer
 
 
 
From: machinekit@googlegroups.com [mailto:machinekit@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of Chris Albertson
Sent: March-12-20 3:33 PM
To: Jason Kridner
Cc: Machinekit
Subject: Re: [Machinekit] Seeed to design and build Machinekit focused Cape for 
BeagleBone Black/AI
 
 
 
Isn’t that something the Beagle is strong at with the eQEP and PRUs?
 
 
Strong only until you hit up against the limited number of I/O pins.  A PRU 
based solution is cheap and simple but can't scale.
 
In general TI's idea to place a small microcontroller on the same chip as their 
ARM Cortex-A was good and we see others doing this too but a big machine tool 
like a 5-axis mill with tool changer and cooling and saftey interconnects is 
going to need something bigger than a PRU.  FPGAs work well as wold an STM32 
tht had on order about 100 pins.
 
-- 

Chris Albertson
Redond

Re: [Machinekit] Seeed to design and build Machinekit focused Cape for BeagleBone Black/AI

[justin White]

>
> On Thursday, March 12, 2020 at 6:32:52 PM UTC-4, Chris Albertson wrote:

Isn’t that something the Beagle is strong at with the eQEP and PRUs?
>>
>
>
> Strong only until you hit up against the limited number of I/O pins.  A 
> PRU based solution is cheap and simple but can't scale.
>
> In general TI's idea to place a small microcontroller on the same chip as 
> their ARM Cortex-A was good and we see others doing this too but a big 
> machine tool like a 5-axis mill with tool changer and cooling and saftey 
> interconnects is going to need something bigger than a PRU.  FPGAs work 
> well as wold an STM32 tht had on order about 100 pins.
>
> -- 
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>

But that's not what they are going for "Help assemble and provide software 
images configured for an open source 3D printer and CNC machine (with 
BeagleBoard.org and community guidance and support)"..Pretty much sums 
up the mission statement. If they're looking to showcase the Beaglebone 
hardware as part of an official beaglebone supported piece, I seriously 
doubt they're looking to offload IO to a microcontroller and develop the 
firmware for it when:
 

> * Manufacture the design under the BeagleBoard.org name to support the 
> BeagleBoard.org Foundation and community
>

Everytime someone mentions something like this people get all starry eyed 
about it.It's going to be Seeed's version of Cramps. The most helpful 
suggestions would probably be along those lines. Jason will have to clarify 
but I'm pretty sure this is a maker focused thing, Ethercat and analog 
outputs for each axis are not going to happen. 

Realistically that is the Machinekit audience anyway, otherwise mksocfpga 
would have quite a bit more interest than Beaglebone projects, Try running 
out of IO on a DE10-Nano, you could probably run a Haas with all that IO.

-- 
website: http://www.machinekit.io blog: http://blog.machinekit.io github: 
https://github.com/machinekit
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Re: [Machinekit] Seeed to design and build Machinekit focused Cape for BeagleBone Black/AI

[Chris Albertson]

>
> Isn’t that something the Beagle is strong at with the eQEP and PRUs?
>


Strong only until you hit up against the limited number of I/O pins.  A PRU
based solution is cheap and simple but can't scale.

In general TI's idea to place a small microcontroller on the same chip as
their ARM Cortex-A was good and we see others doing this too but a big
machine tool like a 5-axis mill with tool changer and cooling and saftey
interconnects is going to need something bigger than a PRU.  FPGAs work
well as wold an STM32 tht had on order about 100 pins.

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

-- 
website: http://www.machinekit.io blog: http://blog.machinekit.io github: 
https://github.com/machinekit
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Re: [Machinekit] Re: Seeed to design and build Machinekit focused Cape for BeagleBone Black/AI

[Mala Dies]

Hello,

Sounds good but I was not being too harsh on Seeed Studio from my 
perspective. I guess people get busy and languages collide at times. I can 
chalk up the issues over the years to that idea. 

...

Nothing is perfect and I may be in limbo but I think the Cape should have, 
from what I understand, a couple drivers (four or five) for handling heavy 
motors. I mean, why purchase a ton of extra equipment when the BBAI and 
Cape can handle it?

Seth

P.S. And sir, I am not by any means telling you or the rest of the 
community to not purchase products from Seeed Studio. That is not my aim. I 
just wanted more communication and less typos without explanations. Now, 
are we looking for specific drivers or do you have any in mind? I mean, is 
it okay to "quarrel" about this issue or is anything set in stone? I would 
like to help find some drivers that are easily accessible, i.e. 120v? I 
know the replicape handles 24 volts but may be a little too small in 
wattage for what this group may want. I am not speaking for anyone outside 
of myself, I guess. If that is too much to inquire over, that is okay. I 
steadily give out info. when I can on specific BBB related issues and 
ideas. "Take the good w/ the bad, supposedly." Sounds good.

On Thursday, March 12, 2020 at 4:05:14 PM UTC-5, Jason Kridner wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 2:59 PM Mala Dies > 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am a novice in most fields of study regarding brushless stepper motors 
>> and drives. If anything, I think allowing people like me, the novices in 
>> this category, to establish as domain in the field with not only hardware 
>> but a temporary to permanent wiki support would be what Open Source 
>> initiatives are made of currently.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> I know about Machinekit and how it offers specific uses to users like me. 
>> Although, and this is the truth, I have not used Machinekit with my 
>> RepliCape, I have been wanting to test out these images for use in a 
>> particular manner.
>>
>>
>>- Key Takeaways 
>>   - Ease of use
>>   - Open Source Hardware and Source (the BBB.io persons' ways)
>>   - An updated Wiki of ideas all relative to this specific hardware, 
>>   source, and middleware
>>- Stated Opinions 
>>   - Although my opinions may fall short of technological at times, 
>>   ease of use is always a need
>>   - I would make lists and hold a meeting
>>  - Hardware
>>  - Source (Machinekit)?
>>  - Wiki (who will have advanced knowledge to pick apart the 
>>  wiki)?
>>   
>> Now...I am sure Seeed Studio can handle, w/ the current state of 
>> machinery, the needs of me, myself, and I (and other users like me too). 
>>
>> But...
>>
>> So, sockets or pins or connections:
>>
>>
>>- I say that actual connections should be made outside of the screw 
>>terminals, i.e. either soldered or a terminal block that is severely 
>>equipped to handle people moving around the machinery and electronics.
>>- I also say that there should be a couple of people at least that 
>>are dedicated to the project, e.g. more knowledgeable people than I on 
>>these subjects.
>>- I also say that the computer needs to be the source of the UX, GUI, 
>>UI, or whatever we call them these days.
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Now...I am not affiliated but I am definitely a community member that has 
>> "outlandish" goals for specific projects. I have been here since the A5C 
>> BBB. I think it has been since 2014/15. 
>>
>> Why am I telling you these ideas and reaching out? 
>>
>>
>>1. I have seen specific ideas go to waste and not catch any ideas 
>>from other community members on many of the Capes produced. 
>>2. Either the Capes produced, were before my time, circa '14/'15, or 
>>I have been paying less attention to what is needed regarding the Capes.
>>3. I think the Capes are a big part of the community and ideas 
>>circulating are more than a start.
>>
>> I hate to down Seeed Studio because of their popularity and ease of 
>> motive to act on making nice equipment but...
>>
>> Sometimes, I think because of their wikis not being updated frequently, 
>> people lose interest or find that support is not viable for them. 
>>
>> I have been to the Seeed Studio wiki many times in my life and sometimes 
>> I have been rewarded for asking for support. Other times, the community was 
>> more needy than I and I had to provide what I learned.
>>
>> All I am typing here is that interest gets lost when people are not 
>> updating due to whatever reason. Do you or do we want another Cape to get 
>> lost attention when it is a piece of GOLD?
>>
>
> Let's look to Seeed for what we know Seeed is good at. They do good design 
> work, they manufacture on-time at good prices at varying volumes for long 
> periods of time, if given the right constraints of a well-defined 
> functionality they do good quality control, they solve difficult component 
> challe

Re: [Machinekit] Seeed to design and build Machinekit focused Cape for BeagleBone Black/AI

[Jason Kridner]

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 5:09 PM Chris Albertson 
wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 11:47 AM Jason Kridner  wrote:
>
>> If you are putting a fast processor on the main board, what is the Beagle
>> doing?
>>
>
> The Beagle is running the servo loop, g-code interpeter, motion planning,
> and the user interface.  Step-gen and quadrature decoding are done on the
> hardware.
>

Isn’t that something the Beagle is strong at with the eQEP and PRUs?

 Pretty much exactly that way it works if you use a PC and a Mesa FPGA card.
>
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
-- 
https://beagleboard.org/about

-- 
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https://github.com/machinekit
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Re: [Machinekit] Re: Seeed to design and build Machinekit focused Cape for BeagleBone Black/AI

[Chris Albertson]

I doubt you'd want any kind of motor drivers on the board.   The board
would have logic level outputs only and would interface to
industry-standard motor drivers that run off step/direction or 0 to 10
volts or even Ethercat.

This is where the board gets larger and expensive as it would need to
support 3 or 5 different kinds of interfaces for 5 or 6 axis.But the
hope is that mas producing one PCB is cheaper than making five different
variation


Also,... If these are a true "Open Source" design then we users would
send the Geber file to a PCB fab in China and have 3 to 5 PCBs made then
solder down only the parts we need.Those only using step/direction woud
not bother to buy or solder down the analog or Ethercat chips. and
connectors.

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 12:19 PM Mala Dies  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I erased my last message. I think my last message was just reaching out.
> Here:
>
>
>- What are we talking about in regards to the power consumption of the
>available wattage?
>   - 125w
>   - 150w
>   - 175w
>   - etc...
>- I am asking b/c some motors will drive that much wattage by
>themselves.
>- I am missing something as usual.
>   - Would we power the board, AI, separately?
>   - Are the pins already available on the AI for use without .dts
>   files?
>  - If not, can we expect a config-pin source to work in the
>  future?
>  - Or, are we going to have to deal with EEPROM already
>  "registered?"
>
> I have these subtle questions because I am all in on this idea. I do not
> care for the AI handling the GUI. I would rather my chromebook or laptop
> handle it.
>
> Can I expect to handle more than three, 100w brushless stepper motors?
>
> Seth
>
> P.S. I will have a million more questions available by the time I post
> next. I am being nosey on purpose. I want to know things. I especially want
> to know what type of motors I can handle on this Cape. Are people already
> handling design, a wiki, and/or status updates on this venture?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Seeed is looking to not only build a Machinekit-focused Cape for
>> BeagleBone Black and BeagleBone AI, but to:
>> * Take in features and feedback from the community
>> * Contribute the design to open source and certify it as such
>> * Manufacture the design under the BeagleBoard.org name to support the
>> BeagleBoard.org Foundation and community
>> * Help assemble and provide software images configured for an open source
>> 3D printer and CNC machine (with BeagleBoard.org and community guidance and
>> support)
>> * Offer a collection of additional accessories which might commonly be
>> needed
>>
>> I am very excited about this because I know Seeed cares about open
>> hardware and also knows how to deliver solutions reliably and cost
>> effectively.
>>
>> So, what are your ideas about where to start on such a cape?
>> --
>> https://beagleboard.org/about
>>
>
> On Thursday, March 12, 2020 at 8:38:53 AM UTC-5, Jason Kridner wrote:
>>
>> Seeed is looking to not only build a Machinekit-focused Cape for
>> BeagleBone Black and BeagleBone AI, but to:
>> * Take in features and feedback from the community
>> * Contribute the design to open source and certify it as such
>> * Manufacture the design under the BeagleBoard.org name to support the
>> BeagleBoard.org Foundation and community
>> * Help assemble and provide software images configured for an open source
>> 3D printer and CNC machine (with BeagleBoard.org and community guidance and
>> support)
>> * Offer a collection of additional accessories which might commonly be
>> needed
>>
>> I am very excited about this because I know Seeed cares about open
>> hardware and also knows how to deliver solutions reliably and cost
>> effectively.
>>
>> So, what are your ideas about where to start on such a cape?
>> --
>> https://beagleboard.org/about
>>
> --
> website: http://www.machinekit.io blog: http://blog.machinekit.io github:
> https://github.com/machinekit
> ---
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> 
> .
>


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

-- 
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Re: [Machinekit] Seeed to design and build Machinekit focused Cape for BeagleBone Black/AI

[Chris Albertson]

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 11:47 AM Jason Kridner  wrote:

> If you are putting a fast processor on the main board, what is the Beagle
> doing?
>

The Beagle is running the servo loop, g-code interpeter, motion planning,
and the user interface.  Step-gen and quadrature decoding are done on the
hardware.Pretty much exactly that way it works if you use a PC and a
Mesa FPGA card.


-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

-- 
website: http://www.machinekit.io blog: http://blog.machinekit.io github: 
https://github.com/machinekit
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Re: [Machinekit] Re: Seeed to design and build Machinekit focused Cape for BeagleBone Black/AI

[Jason Kridner]

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 2:59 PM Mala Dies  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am a novice in most fields of study regarding brushless stepper motors
> and drives. If anything, I think allowing people like me, the novices in
> this category, to establish as domain in the field with not only hardware
> but a temporary to permanent wiki support would be what Open Source
> initiatives are made of currently.
>
> ...
>
> I know about Machinekit and how it offers specific uses to users like me.
> Although, and this is the truth, I have not used Machinekit with my
> RepliCape, I have been wanting to test out these images for use in a
> particular manner.
>
>
>- Key Takeaways
>   - Ease of use
>   - Open Source Hardware and Source (the BBB.io persons' ways)
>   - An updated Wiki of ideas all relative to this specific hardware,
>   source, and middleware
>- Stated Opinions
>   - Although my opinions may fall short of technological at times,
>   ease of use is always a need
>   - I would make lists and hold a meeting
>  - Hardware
>  - Source (Machinekit)?
>  - Wiki (who will have advanced knowledge to pick apart the wiki)?
>
> Now...I am sure Seeed Studio can handle, w/ the current state of
> machinery, the needs of me, myself, and I (and other users like me too).
>
> But...
>
> So, sockets or pins or connections:
>
>
>- I say that actual connections should be made outside of the screw
>terminals, i.e. either soldered or a terminal block that is severely
>equipped to handle people moving around the machinery and electronics.
>- I also say that there should be a couple of people at least that are
>dedicated to the project, e.g. more knowledgeable people than I on these
>subjects.
>- I also say that the computer needs to be the source of the UX, GUI,
>UI, or whatever we call them these days.
>
> ...
>
> Now...I am not affiliated but I am definitely a community member that has
> "outlandish" goals for specific projects. I have been here since the A5C
> BBB. I think it has been since 2014/15.
>
> Why am I telling you these ideas and reaching out?
>
>
>1. I have seen specific ideas go to waste and not catch any ideas from
>other community members on many of the Capes produced.
>2. Either the Capes produced, were before my time, circa '14/'15, or I
>have been paying less attention to what is needed regarding the Capes.
>3. I think the Capes are a big part of the community and ideas
>circulating are more than a start.
>
> I hate to down Seeed Studio because of their popularity and ease of motive
> to act on making nice equipment but...
>
> Sometimes, I think because of their wikis not being updated frequently,
> people lose interest or find that support is not viable for them.
>
> I have been to the Seeed Studio wiki many times in my life and sometimes I
> have been rewarded for asking for support. Other times, the community was
> more needy than I and I had to provide what I learned.
>
> All I am typing here is that interest gets lost when people are not
> updating due to whatever reason. Do you or do we want another Cape to get
> lost attention when it is a piece of GOLD?
>

Let's look to Seeed for what we know Seeed is good at. They do good design
work, they manufacture on-time at good prices at varying volumes for long
periods of time, if given the right constraints of a well-defined
functionality they do good quality control, they solve difficult component
challenges with good visibility into what is available and they work well
in the open source world as information is requested from them they give
very freely. That said, they aren't Machinekit experts and this community
would be educating them on that. Documentation on using Machinekit should
be coming from the Machinekit community and documentation around new
hardware should be done in a way that meets this community's standards. I'm
asking if we can work together to leverage Seeed's strengths to solve a
gap--the gap of while there are lots of cool solutions around BeagleBone
and Machinekit, the add-on hardware to make them is not readily available
in distribution with ready-to-go software images.

Sound good?


>
> Seth
>
> P.S. Now, I understand that beagleboard.org is not a major subsidiary of
> Lexus or whatever large company. I am not talking about 24/7 support by way
> of email, phone, chat, and face time or live meetings online and in person.
> I would ask but I am too scared. Anyway, please try to make this venture w/
> ease of access in mind, sturdy (durable) power and pin connectors, and w/
> access to extra i2c pins on the AI if they are indeed available by way of
> Machinekit. Phew. Okay, I think that is enough opinion to make anyone
> cringe. Sorry and please consider my needs versus the power hungry
> machinists that already know up from down.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, March 12, 2020 at 8:38:53 AM UTC-5, Jason Kridner wrote:
>>
>> Seeed is looking t

[Machinekit] Re: Seeed to design and build Machinekit focused Cape for BeagleBone Black/AI

[Mala Dies]

Hello,

I erased my last message. I think my last message was just reaching out. 
Here:


   - What are we talking about in regards to the power consumption of the 
   available wattage?
  - 125w
  - 150w
  - 175w
  - etc...
   - I am asking b/c some motors will drive that much wattage by themselves.
   - I am missing something as usual.
  - Would we power the board, AI, separately?
  - Are the pins already available on the AI for use without .dts files?
 - If not, can we expect a config-pin source to work in the future?
 - Or, are we going to have to deal with EEPROM already 
 "registered?"
  
I have these subtle questions because I am all in on this idea. I do not 
care for the AI handling the GUI. I would rather my chromebook or laptop 
handle it.

Can I expect to handle more than three, 100w brushless stepper motors?

Seth

P.S. I will have a million more questions available by the time I post 
next. I am being nosey on purpose. I want to know things. I especially want 
to know what type of motors I can handle on this Cape. Are people already 
handling design, a wiki, and/or status updates on this venture?




 

> Seeed is looking to not only build a Machinekit-focused Cape for 
> BeagleBone Black and BeagleBone AI, but to:
> * Take in features and feedback from the community
> * Contribute the design to open source and certify it as such
> * Manufacture the design under the BeagleBoard.org name to support the 
> BeagleBoard.org Foundation and community
> * Help assemble and provide software images configured for an open source 
> 3D printer and CNC machine (with BeagleBoard.org and community guidance and 
> support)
> * Offer a collection of additional accessories which might commonly be 
> needed
>
> I am very excited about this because I know Seeed cares about open 
> hardware and also knows how to deliver solutions reliably and cost 
> effectively.
>
> So, what are your ideas about where to start on such a cape?
> -- 
> https://beagleboard.org/about
>

On Thursday, March 12, 2020 at 8:38:53 AM UTC-5, Jason Kridner wrote:
>
> Seeed is looking to not only build a Machinekit-focused Cape for 
> BeagleBone Black and BeagleBone AI, but to:
> * Take in features and feedback from the community
> * Contribute the design to open source and certify it as such
> * Manufacture the design under the BeagleBoard.org name to support the 
> BeagleBoard.org Foundation and community
> * Help assemble and provide software images configured for an open source 
> 3D printer and CNC machine (with BeagleBoard.org and community guidance and 
> support)
> * Offer a collection of additional accessories which might commonly be 
> needed
>
> I am very excited about this because I know Seeed cares about open 
> hardware and also knows how to deliver solutions reliably and cost 
> effectively.
>
> So, what are your ideas about where to start on such a cape?
> -- 
> https://beagleboard.org/about
>

-- 
website: http://www.machinekit.io blog: http://blog.machinekit.io github: 
https://github.com/machinekit
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[Machinekit] Re: Seeed to design and build Machinekit focused Cape for BeagleBone Black/AI

[Mala Dies]

Hello,

I am a novice in most fields of study regarding brushless stepper motors 
and drives. If anything, I think allowing people like me, the novices in 
this category, to establish as domain in the field with not only hardware 
but a temporary to permanent wiki support would be what Open Source 
initiatives are made of currently.

...

I know about Machinekit and how it offers specific uses to users like me. 
Although, and this is the truth, I have not used Machinekit with my 
RepliCape, I have been wanting to test out these images for use in a 
particular manner.


   - Key Takeaways 
  - Ease of use
  - Open Source Hardware and Source (the BBB.io persons' ways)
  - An updated Wiki of ideas all relative to this specific hardware, 
  source, and middleware
   - Stated Opinions 
  - Although my opinions may fall short of technological at times, ease 
  of use is always a need
  - I would make lists and hold a meeting
 - Hardware
 - Source (Machinekit)?
 - Wiki (who will have advanced knowledge to pick apart the wiki)?
  
Now...I am sure Seeed Studio can handle, w/ the current state of machinery, 
the needs of me, myself, and I (and other users like me too). 

But...

So, sockets or pins or connections:


   - I say that actual connections should be made outside of the screw 
   terminals, i.e. either soldered or a terminal block that is severely 
   equipped to handle people moving around the machinery and electronics.
   - I also say that there should be a couple of people at least that are 
   dedicated to the project, e.g. more knowledgeable people than I on these 
   subjects.
   - I also say that the computer needs to be the source of the UX, GUI, 
   UI, or whatever we call them these days.

...

Now...I am not affiliated but I am definitely a community member that has 
"outlandish" goals for specific projects. I have been here since the A5C 
BBB. I think it has been since 2014/15. 

Why am I telling you these ideas and reaching out? 


   1. I have seen specific ideas go to waste and not catch any ideas from 
   other community members on many of the Capes produced. 
   2. Either the Capes produced, were before my time, circa '14/'15, or I 
   have been paying less attention to what is needed regarding the Capes.
   3. I think the Capes are a big part of the community and ideas 
   circulating are more than a start.

I hate to down Seeed Studio because of their popularity and ease of motive 
to act on making nice equipment but...

Sometimes, I think because of their wikis not being updated frequently, 
people lose interest or find that support is not viable for them. 

I have been to the Seeed Studio wiki many times in my life and sometimes I 
have been rewarded for asking for support. Other times, the community was 
more needy than I and I had to provide what I learned.

All I am typing here is that interest gets lost when people are not 
updating due to whatever reason. Do you or do we want another Cape to get 
lost attention when it is a piece of GOLD?

Seth

P.S. Now, I understand that beagleboard.org is not a major subsidiary of 
Lexus or whatever large company. I am not talking about 24/7 support by way 
of email, phone, chat, and face time or live meetings online and in person. 
I would ask but I am too scared. Anyway, please try to make this venture w/ 
ease of access in mind, sturdy (durable) power and pin connectors, and w/ 
access to extra i2c pins on the AI if they are indeed available by way of 
Machinekit. Phew. Okay, I think that is enough opinion to make anyone 
cringe. Sorry and please consider my needs versus the power hungry 
machinists that already know up from down. 





On Thursday, March 12, 2020 at 8:38:53 AM UTC-5, Jason Kridner wrote:
>
> Seeed is looking to not only build a Machinekit-focused Cape for 
> BeagleBone Black and BeagleBone AI, but to:
> * Take in features and feedback from the community
> * Contribute the design to open source and certify it as such
> * Manufacture the design under the BeagleBoard.org name to support the 
> BeagleBoard.org Foundation and community
> * Help assemble and provide software images configured for an open source 
> 3D printer and CNC machine (with BeagleBoard.org and community guidance and 
> support)
> * Offer a collection of additional accessories which might commonly be 
> needed
>
> I am very excited about this because I know Seeed cares about open 
> hardware and also knows how to deliver solutions reliably and cost 
> effectively.
>
> So, what are your ideas about where to start on such a cape?
> -- 
> https://beagleboard.org/about
>

-- 
website: http://www.machinekit.io blog: http://blog.machinekit.io github: 
https://github.com/machinekit
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To view

Re: [Machinekit] Seeed to design and build Machinekit focused Cape for BeagleBone Black/AI

[Jason Kridner]

On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 1:41 PM John Dammeyer 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I've been proposing something very similar that would use a BBB or a PIC32.
> The reason for the PIC32 is the lack of I/O on the Beagle once you enable
> the HDMI or plug in one of those small 4.3" LCD displays.
>
>
>
> I already have a 4DCape (attached JPG) and a Replicape c/w with poorly
> functioning Manga Screen.  I bought the newer Manga screen but as yet
> haven't really done anything with it or the Replicape.
>
>
>
> I've also got an earlier xylotex DB25 cape and a LogicSupply Serial cape.
> Unlike say the ISA bus on the original PC, nothing is really compatible so
> they can all plug in at the same time which makes sense because the BBB
> external connections aren't really an expandable bus.
>
>
>
> OK.  So what does a CNC system need?  I think it's always better to first
> specify the needs and then see what processor fits rather than insist on a
> particular architecture and then shoehorn in the specifications to fit the
> target hardware.
>
>
>
> 1.  Either 4 or 5 axis step/dir.
>
> a.   At a minimum X,Y,Z, A and B(or C) and up to 500kHz step rates to
> handle some of the now low cost AC servos with 2500 line encoders.
>
> 2.  Spindle control in the form of two outputs:
>
> a.   PWM and Direction or
>
> b.  Step and Direction or
>
> c.   Relay Clockwise, Counter Clockwise.
>
> 3.  Spindle Quadrature encoder input
>
> a.   Differential A/B and Index high speed hardware for 2500 line
> encoders turning up to  3000 RPM.
>
> 4.  Home switch input for 4 or 5 axis  (does a rotary require a home
> switch).
>
> a.   shared with Limit switch for each axis.
>
> b.  Open circuit means activated.
>
> 5.  Limit switch for the other end of each axis.
>
> a.   Open circuit means activated.
>
> 6.  ESTOP input with ESTOP asserted when ESTOP not connected.
>
> 7.  ENABLE output.
>
> a.   One active high
>
> b.  One active low.
>
> 8.  Coolant output control
>
> a.   Flood
>
> b.  Mist
>
> 9.  General purpose output signals for power supply enables etc.
>
> 10.  Charge Pump output that when stopped shuts off all outputs including
> ENABLE.
>
> 11.  USB input for a pendant of some type
>
> a.   For USB stick for code or firmware updates.
>
> 12.  Or at least Inputs for Quadrature encoder knob and a few buttons.
>
> 13.  MODBus support with either RS232 or RS485
>
> a.   for something like a Homann Designs MODIO
>
> b.  Other MODBus end products for things like tool changers
>
> 14.  CAN bus with CANopen support
>
> a.   for expanding to other hardware like tool changers.
>
> 15.  Ethernet connectivity.
>
> 16.  Some sort of display.  Size depending on what level of application
> is running on the BBB.
>
>
>
> Point 16 is the interesting part.  Should this be a small 4.3" to 7" LCD
> display serving as a rudimentary DRO and status display?  Or should it be
> the entire AXIS interface or something between.
>

For the inclusion of UI support, does it really need to be BeagleBone Black
or can that be BeagleBone AI? Today, we need some software updates to run
reliably without a fan, but I think that can be incorporated--unless you
think a fan should reasonably be a part of the solution. BeagleBone AI does
jump the price of the BeagleBone to $99 (assuming tariff situation is put
under control with either a US source or the tariffs go away), but is that
really significant for a CNC solution that includes the UI? BeagleBone
Black can handle the UI, but could be considered generally be a bit
sluggish on that, especially if the 3D accelerator isn't integrated nicely.


>
>
> And with point 16 in mind, if the display makes the BBB into an
> intelligent power feed DRO controller to allow essentially manual operation
> on the mill then the Ethernet port could be used to connect a full size PC
> (laptop or workstation) running LinuxCNC/MachineKit with full graphical
> tool path display etc.
>

That seems like the sweet spot for BeagleBone Black to me. Still running
Machinekit on the board, but running the UI remotely.


>
>
> It's already possible to buy a CNC controller for $200 to $300 from China
> with a 4.3" display, a bunch of buttons and a USB connection for loading
> G-Code.  And there are some users who swear by that solution as the
> easiest and fastest way to get working.  But they aren't open source.  They
> aren't expandable.
>

Exactly. How can we create a nice experience out of box like something
purchased off the shell for CNC control, but keep it open and expandable.
If $300 is the expectation with 4.3" display and USB port for G-Code, then
let's work together to set the requirements appropriately.


>
>
> To have all the above I/O requires a lot of pins.  I'm not sure the BBB
> can do this all.  Unless it uses 10Mhz SPI to a serial shift register
> latch to create 6 axis STEP/DIR/PWM for X,Y,Z,A,B and Spindle along with
> coolant outputs to a maximu

[Machinekit] Seeed to design and build Machinekit focused Cape for BeagleBone Black/AI

[Jason Kridner]

Seeed is looking to not only build a Machinekit-focused Cape for BeagleBone
Black and BeagleBone AI, but to:
* Take in features and feedback from the community
* Contribute the design to open source and certify it as such
* Manufacture the design under the BeagleBoard.org name to support the
BeagleBoard.org Foundation and community
* Help assemble and provide software images configured for an open source
3D printer and CNC machine (with BeagleBoard.org and community guidance and
support)
* Offer a collection of additional accessories which might commonly be
needed

I am very excited about this because I know Seeed cares about open hardware
and also knows how to deliver solutions reliably and cost effectively.

So, what are your ideas about where to start on such a cape?
-- 
https://beagleboard.org/about

-- 
website: http://www.machinekit.io blog: http://blog.machinekit.io github: 
https://github.com/machinekit
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[Machinekit] BeagleBone with Cramps X stepper vibrates but does not move

[John Hammond]

The Y and Z steppers rotate but the X one does not. I have switched the Polulu 
driver from the X to Z and it works fine. Where is the pulse rate determined in 
Linux? Does Machinekit have linuxcnc files that I haven’t seen? 

-- 
website: http://www.machinekit.io blog: http://blog.machinekit.io github: 
https://github.com/machinekit
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