Re: no-no?

[Sherm Pendley]

On Saturday, March 1, 2003, at 12:55 AM, Peter N Lewis wrote:

I did find that various MUD clients would not work because they tried 
to link to perl and got hit with the binary incompatibility issue.
There was an Apple installer script that failed if /usr/bin/perl was 
5.8.0, as well - I forget which one. It used 'EQ' to compare two 
strings, which apparently no longer works in 5.8.0, which requires the 
lowercase 'eq'.

Possibly the same problem would happen if you used CB apps.
That depends - CB apps are, by default, linked against 
/Library/Frameworks/CamelBones.framework. So long as that's compiled 
against the version of Perl you have, CB apps will run fine.

A CB app that includes a copy of the framework into the .app bundle 
will, of course, only work with whatever version of Perl that the 
included framework was compiled against. Likewise, if XS modules are 
bundled with the app, those modules will only work with the version of 
Perl they were compiled against.

sherm--

"But i don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad, 
You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
	"Alice in Wonderland" - Lewis Carrol

Re: no-no?

[Peter N Lewis]

On Friday, February 28, 2003, at 06:05 PM, stephen rouse wrote:

i take it installing 5.8 is a bad idea?
Installing it over your stock Perl is a bad idea. Installing it 
somewhere safe - I prefer /opt - is perfectly harmless.
Actually, since I've done this, installing 5.8 over your stock perl 
does not seem to cause any problems in general.

I did find that various MUD clients would not work because they tried 
to link to perl and got hit with the binary incompatibility issue. 
Possibly the same problem would happen if you used CB apps.  But 
other than those MUD programs, I have had no problems with 5.8 as the 
only installed perl on my system.

So it may b a bad idea, but it seems to work without problems.

Enjoy,
   Peter.
--
  

Re: dyld: /usr/bin/perl Undefined symbols:

[Ari B Kahn]

Yes indeedy - 5.6
Is it worth the 5.8?

on 2/28/03 5:23 PM, Gary Blackburn at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> 
> On Friday, February 28, 2003, at 04:53  PM, Ari B Kahn wrote:
> 
>> Trying to install SOAP on OS X 10.2.4
>> Even when I try it using the Makefile.pl I get the same error.
>> Any suggestions?
>> Will summarize ...
>> 
>> Thanks
>> -- 
>> Ari Kahn
>> http://damon.ib3.gmu.edu/~kahn
>> 
>> ### CPAN output ###
> 
> 
> 
> Oddly enough I was using SOAP::Lite just today on my 10.2.4 box... I
> had installed it under a previous OS X version, however. (Plus, I'm one
> of those stupid people who's installed 5.8 over my stock Perl.) Works
> like a charm... Are you installing under Perl 5.6?
> 
> ---
> Gary Blackburn
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> 

-- 
Ari

"Nobody understands the world they're in, but some people are
better off at it than others." - Richard P. Feynman in 'The
Meaning of it All: Thoughts of a Citizen Scientist'

Re: Help with dl_install_.al error please

[drieux]

On Friday, Feb 28, 2003, at 14:18 US/Pacific, Warren Pollans wrote:
[..]
I'm trying to work through recipe 9.16 in the cookbook - using 
Apache::DB - although I'm not trying to use Apache::DB yet - just 
trying to see how my stuff works when I start apache with "httpd -X -f 
path-to-configfile".  This is on an ibook (OSX 10.1.5, apache 1.3.26, 
mod_perl 1.26 - the apple versions)

When I try to run one of my cgi scripts - that works fine under 
mod_perl without '-X' - I get the following in the error_log:

   POSIX.pm: Can't locate auto/DynaLoader/dl_install_.al in @INC (@INC
   contains: /Users/warren/include /System/Library/Perl/darwin
   /System/Library/Perl /Library/Perl/darwin /Library/Perl
   /Network/Library/Perl/darwin /Network/Library/Perl /usr/
   /usr/lib/perl) at /System/Library/Perl/darwin/XSLoader.pm line 90
What am I missing?  where/what is auto/DynaLoader/dl_install_.al?
[..]

I think there are more than a few problems going on here.
so let's try to unwrap them slowly.
the error occurs in the XSLoader.pm file at line 90,
which if you look at the file is
my $xs = dl_install_xsub("${module}::bootstrap", $boot_symbol_ref, 
$file);

it should be noted that this could be a part of your problem,
that the XSLoader.pm file itself is kaput and garbled.
the other problem could well be as noted in the comment line:

# Many dynamic extension loading problems will appear to come from
# this section of code: XYZ failed at line 123 of DynaLoader.pm.
# Often these errors are actually occurring in the initialisation
# C code of the extension XS file. Perl reports the error as being
# in this perl code simply because this was the last perl code
# it executed.
because the 'autolaoder' file that it is looking for

	dl_install_.al

makes no sense at all.

if you run nm on your copy of the DynaLoader.a
you will of course find
07fc T _XS_DynaLoader_dl_install_xsub

which is what it should have been calling for, but having
failed to find that, in the available library, perl of
course then rolls out to try and find it as an autoloadable
file of the form
	dl_install_xsub.al

expecting that it is actually perl and not library code.

You may also want to look at what is going on with your POSIX.pm,
and do you have a version skew problem driven by some variation
being in /Users/warren/include which has some of the POSIX.pm file
but has gone off strangely?
Other places where all of this can get wonky is if you have say
perl 5.8.0 as your perl but have the mod_perl from the 5.6.0 version.


ciao
drieux
---

Re: no-no?

[Sherm Pendley]

On Friday, February 28, 2003, at 06:05 PM, stephen rouse wrote:

i take it installing 5.8 is a bad idea?
Installing it over your stock Perl is a bad idea. Installing it 
somewhere safe - I prefer /opt - is perfectly harmless.

sherm--

C programmers never die - they're just cast into void.

no-no?

[stephen rouse]

i take it installing 5.8 is a bad idea?



At 5:23 PM -0500 2/28/03, Gary Blackburn wrote:


Oddly enough I was using SOAP::Lite just today on my 10.2.4 box... I 
had installed it under a previous OS X version, however. (Plus, I'm 
one of those stupid people who's installed 5.8 over my stock Perl.) 
Works like a charm... Are you installing under Perl 5.6?

Re: magic bullet needed for Perl upgrades on Mac OS X

[Sherm Pendley]

On Friday, February 28, 2003, at 07:49 AM, Barry Jaspan wrote:

I guess this leaves it unclear what to do when a user double-clicks on
a .pl script
No, I'd say that's crystal clear - open the file in BBEdit. ;-)

sherm--

Heisenberg may have slept here.

Re: dyld: /usr/bin/perl Undefined symbols:

[Gary Blackburn]

On Friday, February 28, 2003, at 04:53  PM, Ari B Kahn wrote:

Trying to install SOAP on OS X 10.2.4
Even when I try it using the Makefile.pl I get the same error.
Any suggestions?
Will summarize ...
Thanks
--
Ari Kahn
http://damon.ib3.gmu.edu/~kahn
### CPAN output ###


Oddly enough I was using SOAP::Lite just today on my 10.2.4 box... I 
had installed it under a previous OS X version, however. (Plus, I'm one 
of those stupid people who's installed 5.8 over my stock Perl.) Works 
like a charm... Are you installing under Perl 5.6?

---
Gary Blackburn
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Help with dl_install_.al error please

[Warren Pollans]

Could someone help me with this please?  I had sent this to the mod_perl list - where 
it was suggested that I try here instead.

Who is responsible for putting dl_install_.al in place.  The DynaLoader module is 
installed.

Thanks,

Warren



Begin forwarded message:

Hello,

I'm trying to work through recipe 9.16 in the cookbook - using Apache::DB - although 
I'm not trying to use Apache::DB yet - just trying to see how my stuff works when I 
start apache with "httpd -X -f path-to-configfile".  This is on an ibook (OSX 10.1.5, 
apache 1.3.26, mod_perl 1.26 - the apple versions)

When I try to run one of my cgi scripts - that works fine under mod_perl without '-X' 
- I get the following in the error_log:

   POSIX.pm: Can't locate auto/DynaLoader/dl_install_.al in @INC (@INC 
   contains: /Users/warren/include /System/Library/Perl/darwin 
   /System/Library/Perl /Library/Perl/darwin /Library/Perl 
   /Network/Library/Perl/darwin /Network/Library/Perl /usr/ 
   /usr/lib/perl) at /System/Library/Perl/darwin/XSLoader.pm line 90

What am I missing?  where/what is auto/DynaLoader/dl_install_.al?

Thanks,

Warren

dyld: /usr/bin/perl Undefined symbols:

[Ari B Kahn]

Trying to install SOAP on OS X 10.2.4
Even when I try it using the Makefile.pl I get the same error.
Any suggestions?
Will summarize ...

Thanks 
-- 
Ari Kahn
http://damon.ib3.gmu.edu/~kahn

### CPAN output ###

cpan shell -- CPAN exploration and modules installation (v1.63)
cpan> install SOAP::Lite

.
.
.

Checking if your kit is complete...
Looks good
dyld: /usr/bin/perl Undefined symbols:
_XML_DefaultCurrent
_XML_ErrorString
_XML_ExternalEntityParserCreate
_XML_GetBase
_XML_GetBuffer
_XML_GetCurrentByteCount
_XML_GetCurrentByteIndex
_XML_GetCurrentColumnNumber
_XML_GetCurrentLineNumber
_XML_GetErrorCode
_XML_GetInputContext
_XML_GetSpecifiedAttributeCount
_XML_Parse
_XML_ParseBuffer
_XML_ParserCreate_MM
_XML_ParserFree
_XML_SetAttlistDeclHandler
_XML_SetBase
_XML_SetCdataSectionHandler
_XML_SetCharacterDataHandler
_XML_SetCommentHandler
_XML_SetDefaultHandler
_XML_SetDefaultHandlerExpand
_XML_SetElementDeclHandler
_XML_SetElementHandler
_XML_SetEndCdataSectionHandler
_XML_SetEndDoctypeDeclHandler
_XML_SetEntityDeclHandler
_XML_SetExternalEntityRefHandler
_XML_SetNamespaceDeclHandler
_XML_SetNotationDeclHandler
_XML_SetParamEntityParsing
_XML_SetProcessingInstructionHandler
_XML_SetStartCdataSectionHandler
_XML_SetStartDoctypeDeclHandler
_XML_SetUnknownEncodingHandler
_XML_SetUnparsedEntityDeclHandler
_XML_SetUserData
_XML_SetXmlDeRunning make test
  Make had some problems, maybe interrupted? Won't test
Running make install
  Make had some problems, maybe interrupted? Won't install

Re: dmg of perl 5.8.0 on Mac OS X

[Joe Davison]

On Thu, 6 Feb 2003, Nathan Torkington wrote:
>  A .pkg is specifically just a distribution of files to be installed
>  using the Installer program.  You can add pre- and post- actions to a
>  package (which I should have done for Perl--update your .cshrc to add
>  /usr/local/perl5-8 to the path).  The prompting for admin password,
>  confirming acceptance of the license, selecting the drive to install
>  on ... all that's done by the Installer program in response to
>  instructions in the .pkg file.
>  
>  I used .pkg instead of .dmg because Perl's location is hard-coded in
>  the binary, so it *has* to go into /usr/local/perl5-8.  If I'd just
>  given you a filesystem, you could have copied it anywhere and then
>  filled my mailbox with "you suck, Torkington!" email :-)
>  


Actually, I'm just as happy you didn't update my .cshrc, since I don't
use csh/tcsh -- I use zsh.

I can handle a Readme that says I need to update my PATH.

joe

Re: First results with PAR are good.

[Barry Jaspan]

I had to install:

PAR
Module::ScanDeps
File::Temp
Archive::Zip
Compress::Zlib
but not in that order.  I used perl -MCPAN -e shell to download them all, 
but did NOT take CPAN's word for what dependencies I was lacking.  As far 
as I can tell, CPAN on OS X always ends up thinking you need a bunch of 
modules you already have, not to mention trying to automatically upgrade 
your system perl 5.8.  (Note: This behavior of CPAN's is why I had to 
restore perl 5.6 from the OS X install CDs.)

Note that these should only need to be installed on the development 
machine; I assume if PAR needs them for extraction, it includes them along 
with all the other dependencies.

Barry

At 03:59 PM 2/28/2003 -0500, Morbus Iff wrote:

>The option of using PAR to distribute perl apps on OS X came up on my
>recent (slightly related) thread.  I just installed it, and so far it
>seems to work quite well and easily.  The files it produces are
>somewhat large, though:
>
>My real app (much larger than Hello, world) comes to about 1.9MB, and
>seems initially to work fine.  I have yet to test my app thoroughly or
>test deploy it to other machines.
What other lib's does it use? I'd be interested to see what needs to be 
shipped to say, support Expat or Compress::Zlib, both not defaults.

--
Morbus Iff ( i'm the droid you're looking for )
Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/
Please Me: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/wishlist/25USVJDH68554
icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus

Re: First results with PAR are good.

[Morbus Iff]

>modules you already have, not to mention trying to automatically upgrade
>your system perl 5.8.  (Note: This behavior of CPAN's is why I had to
Get a new version of the CPAN module, and
you won't have the "upgrade perl" problem.
>Note that these should only need to be installed on the development
>machine; I assume if PAR needs them for extraction, it includes them along
Yeah, that's something we gotta test more on. I've got Compress::Zlib, MD5, 
XML|HTTP::Parser installed. What's another "needs XS module" thingy we can 
test with? ;)

--
Morbus Iff ( i'm the droid you're looking for )
Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/
Please Me: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/wishlist/25USVJDH68554
icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus

Re: First results with PAR are good.

[Morbus Iff]

At 03:59 PM 2/28/2003, Morbus Iff wrote:
>>The option of using PAR to distribute perl apps on OS X came up on my
>>recent (slightly related) thread.  I just installed it, and so far it
>>seems to work quite well and easily.  The files it produces are
>>somewhat large, though:
>>
>>My real app (much larger than Hello, world) comes to about 1.9MB, and
>>seems initially to work fine.  I have yet to test my app thoroughly or
>>test deploy it to other machines.
>
>What other lib's does it use? I'd be interested to see what needs to be
>shipped to say, support Expat or Compress::Zlib, both not defaults.
Hmm, this slide:

 http://www.autrijus.org/par-intro/slide005.html

suggests: "Shared object files (aka dll) are extracted with File::Temp", 
which would be really handy (theoretically, the expat stuff would be 
bundled inside, then extracted out on first run?? eh? i dunno).

The only downside for me? I sincerely doubt it'll work on Mac Classic (to 
create .exe's, you need nmake on Win32, easily enough, and presumably, the 
OS X Developer Tools. But I'm not shelling out bucks for CodeWarrior, etc., 
to get the same functionality under Mac Classic).

--
Morbus Iff ( i'm the droid you're looking for )
Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/
Please Me: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/wishlist/25USVJDH68554
icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus

Re: First results with PAR are good.

[Morbus Iff]

>The option of using PAR to distribute perl apps on OS X came up on my
>recent (slightly related) thread.  I just installed it, and so far it
>seems to work quite well and easily.  The files it produces are
>somewhat large, though:
>
>My real app (much larger than Hello, world) comes to about 1.9MB, and
>seems initially to work fine.  I have yet to test my app thoroughly or
>test deploy it to other machines.
What other lib's does it use? I'd be interested to see what needs to be 
shipped to say, support Expat or Compress::Zlib, both not defaults.

--
Morbus Iff ( i'm the droid you're looking for )
Culture: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.gamegrene.com/
Please Me: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/wishlist/25USVJDH68554
icq: 2927491 / aim: akaMorbus / yahoo: morbus_iff / jabber.org: morbus

First results with PAR are good.

[Barry Jaspan]

The option of using PAR to distribute perl apps on OS X came up on my
recent (slightly related) thread.  I just installed it, and so far it
seems to work quite well and easily.  The files it produces are
somewhat large, though:

% pp -e 'print "Hello, world.\n"'
% ./a.out
Hello, world.
% ls -l a.out
-rwxr-xr-x  1 bjaspan  staff  1446347 Feb 28 15:13 a.out*

That 1.4MB does *not* include libperl.dylib, which is dynamically
linked.

My real app (much larger than Hello, world) comes to about 1.9MB, and
seems initially to work fine.  I have yet to test my app thoroughly or
test deploy it to other machines.

Has anyone else used this?

Barry

Re: magic bullet needed for Perl upgrades on Mac OS X

[Daniel Stillwaggon]

On Friday, Feb 28, 2003, at 09:20 US/Pacific, Dan Sugalski wrote:
A way to do packaging would be good, though there are licensing issues  
there that you don't have to deal with when using system-installed  
code.
Would the easiest solution be to come up with a list of "basic" perl  
modules and a collective petition to Apple for inclusion with the  
system?  I don't imagine that there would be much resistance to a  
unified plea for inclusion of x given packages (if the number were  
reasonable, of course).  That might help developers know what to expect  
on a system...

 
-
Daniel C. Stillwaggon
([EMAIL PROTECTED])

Re: magic bullet needed for Perl upgrades on Mac OS X

[Dan Sugalski]

At 9:39 PM -0500 2/27/03, Sherm Pendley wrote:
On Thursday, February 27, 2003, at 08:01 PM, Daniel Stillwaggon wrote:

Any perl application could ship with all of the perls and modules 
that  it requires in its .pkg.  Before installing, it would do a 
quick query  and find out which, if any, of these perl 
modules/versions would need  to get installed in addition to the 
core program, and create a bom  accordingly.
That's a very interesting idea - I've been thinking along those 
lines for a future CamelBones installer, which would examine the 
target system and install a 5.6.*- or 5.8.*-compatible version of 
CB, as appropriate.

It seems like it would bulk up the download, though. For many folks, 
disk space is plentiful - but bandwidth is not. For the shared CB in 
/Library/Frameworks, I've been thinking of having the initial 
download consist of nothing but a tiny installer app, which would 
examine the system and suggest what packages to download and install.
The bigger issue, honestly, is dependent modules. I put together a 
simple client for the PerlMonks chatterbox ages ago, as a test, and 
it works pretty well, but it requires a whole host of modules be 
installed into the system perl, and I dodn't work out a good way to 
either include them with the program or check to make sure they were 
there when the program fired up.

A way to do packaging would be good, though there are licensing 
issues there that you don't have to deal with when using 
system-installed code.
--
Dan

--"it's like this"---
Dan Sugalski  even samurai
[EMAIL PROTECTED] have teddy bears and even
  teddy bears get drunk

Re: 2 "/Library/Perl" in @INC

[drieux]

On Thursday, Feb 27, 2003, at 08:22 US/Pacific, Riccardo Perotti wrote:

I just did a

perl -e 'print "$_\n" for @INC'

in Terminal and both "/Library/Perl" and "/Network/Library/Perl" are 
listed
twice. Why?
about the only reasonablish reason I can think of would
be that they did not do a 'version' based solution for the site_lib
hence you would have expected to see something like

/Library/Perl/darwin
/Library/Perl/5.6.0
/Library/Perl
If you check the Config.pm you will note these things.

eg:
[jeeves: 69:] perl -MConfig -e 'print "$Config{sitelib_stem} \n"'
/Library/Perl
[jeeves: 70:]  perl -MConfig -e 'print "$Config{sitelibexp} \n"'
/Library/Perl
[jeeves: 71:]
vice say:

vladimir: 53:]  perl -MConfig -e 'print "$Config{sitelib_stem} \n"'
/usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl
vladimir: 54:]  perl -MConfig -e 'print "$Config{sitelibexp} \n"'
/usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/5.6.1
vladimir: 55:]
you can then also test the vendorlib side of the process.

[jeeves: 71:] perl -MConfig -e 'print "$Config{installvendorlib} \n"'
/Network/Library/Perl
[jeeves: 72:]
HTH.

ciao
drieux
---

Re: magic bullet needed for Perl upgrades on Mac OS X

[Michael Maibaum]

On Friday, February 28, 2003, at 01:04 AM, Rich Morin wrote:

At 12:13 AM -0800 2/28/03, Michael Maibaum wrote:
FWIW, it seems likely that 5.8.0 will be in 10.3, though that isn't
certain. I have been told that it is what they would like to happen,
and barring any unforeseen problems we should see it.
Do you have an idea of the release schedule for 10.3?

Nope, no clue


--
Michael Maibaum
internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]|http://mike.maibaum.org
voice: [h] (415) 626-6733   |[w] (415) 561-1682


PGP.sig
Description: PGP signature

Re: 2 "/Library/Perl" in @INC

[Vic Norton]

Got me, Riccardo. I got doubling doubling as well, two different ways:

   ~% perl -e 'print "$_\n" for @INC'
   /sw/lib/perl5/5.6.1/darwin
   /sw/lib/perl5/5.6.1
   /Library/Perl/darwin
   /Library/Perl
   /Library/Perl
   .
   ~% perl5.6.0  -e 'print "$_\n" for @INC'
   /System/Library/Perl/darwin
   /System/Library/Perl
   /Library/Perl/darwin
   /Library/Perl
   /Library/Perl
   /Network/Library/Perl/darwin
   /Network/Library/Perl
   .
Regards,

Vic
   /Network/Library/Perl
   .
At 11:22 AM -0500 2/27/03, Riccardo Perotti wrote:
I just did a

perl -e 'print "$_\n" for @INC'

in Terminal and both "/Library/Perl" and "/Network/Library/Perl" are listed
twice. Why?
Riccardo
--
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.riccardoperotti.com

Re: 2 "/Library/Perl" in @INC

[Ken Williams]

On Thursday, February 27, 2003, at 10:22  AM, Riccardo Perotti wrote:
I just did a

perl -e 'print "$_\n" for @INC'

in Terminal and both "/Library/Perl" and "/Network/Library/Perl" are 
listed
twice. Why?
I dunno - it's just compiled that way.  It certainly doesn't cause a 
problem, though.

 -Ken

Re: Non-Perl but baffling question

[Ken Williams]

On Thursday, February 27, 2003, at 05:41  PM, Joe Davison wrote:

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Jeff Lowrey wrote:
 At 10:12 AM +1100 2/26/03, John Horner wrote:
How do I find out if it's 10.1.3 or 10.1.5 from the command-line?

 [toothgnip:~] jeff% osascript -e 'tell application "Finder" to
 version' osascript -e 'tell application "Finder" to version' 10.2.1
Well, I thought that was neat, but when I did it, I got the same answer
Jeff got -- 10.2.1   which is wrong.
sw_verson shows 10.2.4 which is correct.
They're both correct.  As someone pointed out in another message in 
this thread, 10.2.1 is the version of the Finder application, and 
10.2.4 is the version of the operating system.

 -Ken

Re: magic bullet needed for Perl upgrades on Mac OS X

[Ken Williams]

On Thursday, February 27, 2003, at 07:01  PM, Daniel Stillwaggon wrote:
What about a system where perl modules and versions could be  
registered in an easily parsable format like:
perl-install	/usr/local
DBI::AnyData	1.0
etc, etc

The idea is that this *file* (stars indicate tentative) could contain  
system info (where perl and perl modules are installed) and  
module/version info (what modules and versions are installed).  This  
could be maintained either in a flat-file or via some perl-watcher  
daemon that rides herd over the data (that'd be faster, of course).

Any perl application could ship with all of the perls and modules that  
it requires in its .pkg.  Before installing, it would do a quick query  
and find out which, if any, of these perl modules/versions would need  
to get installed in addition to the core program, and create a bom  
accordingly.

The advantages, IMO, are that all the perl data could be easily  
managed and accessed, and there would need be only one version of any  
given library or perl.  The disadvantages are many(developers would  
still need to package all of what they might need, there would still  
be multiple versions of stuff extant, etc)...

I would be willing to put something together this weekend if anyone  
would be interested in such a system. (I am leaning towards having a  
librarian daemon to keep track of everything, accepting queries on  
some suitable port)
If you're going to build a daemon to manage dependencies, then why not  
build a script that can just automatically fetch dependencies from CPAN  
(rather than bundling them) and install them?  Oh, wait... =)

Seriously, I think about these issues too.  In Module::Build  
(http://search.cpan.org/author/KWILLIAMS/Module-Build-0.16/lib/Module/ 
Build.pm), dependencies are written to a meta-file, so that packagers,  
search.cpan.org, module browsers, etc. can access them without running  
the Makefile.PL.  For normal perl module distributions, I'm trying to  
avoid bundling up all dependencies, and rely on tools that can manage  
the dependencies.

That said, if you're trying to create applications for people who  
aren't perl developers, some bundling definitely needs to happen.

 -Ken

Re: magic bullet needed for Perl upgrades on Mac OS X

[Ken Williams]

On Thursday, February 27, 2003, at 10:39  PM, Peter N Lewis wrote:
Another alternative, for something like CB is that you could have an 
initial install you'd need to do for any CB app to run, and that would 
be the big one, once that was done, everyone else could just have the 
relatively small bits they need.  It does have the disadvantage that 
an app would not be a single self contained package, and I think 
you'll actually find that folks would prefer that, even if it means 
downloading 5MB instead of 100k.
Especially if it means they'll have to worry about updating the main 
worker and the smaller apps independently.  Could be enough of a hassle 
to make it not worth doing.

 -Ken

Re: Evil undocumented Apple commands (was Re: Non-Perl but baffling question)

[Ken Williams]

On Thursday, February 27, 2003, at 04:13  PM, David Wheeler wrote:
Apple knows that some utilities are undocumented (and that some man 
pages exist for utilities not actually included in the system). 
They've made great strides getting it all consistent, but as you've 
noticed, it's not quite perfect yet.
Yeah, but it sure is a whole lot better than it was in 10.1!  The 
inclusion of (most of) the proper man pages for the new Jaguar system 
was one of the first things an Apple rep mentioned at the Open Source 
Conference last year when presenting on "Open Source Development on OS 
X" or something.

Heck, this could be like some Solaris systems I've used, where you're 
lucky if you get a man page for 'ls'.

 -Ken

2 "/Library/Perl" in @INC

[Riccardo Perotti]

I just did a 

perl -e 'print "$_\n" for @INC'

in Terminal and both "/Library/Perl" and "/Network/Library/Perl" are listed
twice. Why?

Riccardo
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Re: magic bullet needed for Perl upgrades on Mac OS X

[Barry Jaspan]

Perhaps I am missing the boat on this, but to me the solution seems
simple.  perl 5.6 and 5.8 are different.  They are incompatible.  You
cannot automatically migrate from one to the other in safe manner,
period.

You can, however, quite trivially have both installed.  perl 5.6 is
/usr/bin/perl, /System/Library/Perl, and /Library/Perl.  perl 5.8 can
be /usr/bin/perl5.8, /System/Library/Perl5.8, and /Library/Perl5.8.

Now, developers are guaranteed always to have the version they need
(assuming for a 5.8-dependent app they insist it runs only on
10.whatever-has-5.8).

I guess this leaves it unclear what to do when a user double-clicks on
a .pl script, but for commercial apps, that isn't really an issue.

What am I missing?

Barry

Re: Non-Perl but baffling question

[Joe Davison]

On Tue, 25 Feb 2003, Jeff Lowrey wrote:
>  
>  At 10:12 AM +1100 2/26/03, John Horner wrote:
> >How do I find out if it's 10.1.3 or 10.1.5 from the command-line?
> >
>  
>  [toothgnip:~] jeff% osascript -e 'tell application "Finder" to
>  version' osascript -e 'tell application "Finder" to version' 10.2.1
>  

Well, I thought that was neat, but when I did it, I got the same answer
Jeff got -- 10.2.1   which is wrong.

sw_verson shows 10.2.4 which is correct.

'sup wi' dat?

joe

Re: magic bullet needed for Perl upgrades on Mac OS X

[Rich Morin]

At 12:13 AM -0800 2/28/03, Michael Maibaum wrote:
FWIW, it seems likely that 5.8.0 will be in 10.3, though that isn't
certain. I have been told that it is what they would like to happen,
and barring any unforeseen problems we should see it.
Do you have an idea of the release schedule for 10.3?

-r
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Re: magic bullet needed for Perl upgrades on Mac OS X

[Michael Maibaum]

FWIW, it seems likely that 5.8.0 will be in 10.3, though that isn't 
certain. I have been told that it is what they would like to happen, 
and barring any unforeseen problems we should see it.

Michael
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Michael Maibaum
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