Re: Rules Of Engagement (What the Hell is this List for anyway?)

[Pete Prodoehl]

My hopes are this... as perl and OS X become better friends, we will see 
more *exciting* things on this list. I think DropScript 
 is one example, and 
CamelBones  is another.

(DropScript now works the way MacPerl droplets work, passing in the 
dropped files as the arguements, rather than running once per file...)

I think I see some old MacPerl names on this list. I haven't been active 
on it for a while, but when I was, it dealt with using perl on the Mac, 
and sometimes it drifted into general perl questions, and that was 
usually ok. I'd expect the same thing here. Mainly OS X specific 
things... with the 'general perl questions' thrown into the mix.

Pete


> Someone made the point that as things work more and more smoothly under 
> OSX, so the install/configuration posts will dwindle.
>
> And in a nutshell that's what *should* happen to this list - it should 
> become a low volume, once in a while "anyone know what the hell's 
> happening here?" type of list, but one that focuses on getting 
> perl/related stuff working under OSX.

Re: Rules Of Engagement (What the Hell is this List for anyway?)

[robinmcf]

And there I was thinking how lucky we were on OSX to have gotten away 
for the most part from the kind of radical posing and entrenchement 
that other perl mailing lists have. In bygone time this kind of 
posting would have had "NETTIQUETTE" somewhere in it's subject line.


In short this list is for OSX + perl - that's a broad spectrum, 
particularly as OSX isn't as similar to Unix as some people would 
have you believe, so there are a lot of questions to be asked, a lot 
of them basic.To be honest I like the atmosphere on this list for the 
most part -  instilling fear is never a good way to encourage 
enlightenment.

As far as the hardened tech/admin/hacker whatever aspect - I've been 
on mailing lists long enough that I can see newbie postings a mile 
off, I either don't read them or don't reply if I have no desire to 
say anything constructive - I'm not paying to download each posting 
individually (which is just as well because I'm on other mailing 
lists _way_ more active than this one), 
bandwidth is only an issue to those who have small HD.

C'mon guys try to rise above this kind of stuff and lets get on with 
debating which end of your boiled egg you should crack open.

Re: Rules Of Engagement (What the Hell is this List for anyway?)

[Alex Robinson]

  that other-list polluting bastard 

Well, seeing that my name has been dragged in to the mud by that 
macintosh-know-nothing Devers, I might as well chip in with my 2 
units of $currency


two audiences:
[a] seasoned hackers that just see OSX as another platform to adapt
[b] people exposed to Perl for the first time by OSX


>isn't clear to me where things can or should evolve from that background.

Someone made the point that as things work more and more smoothly 
under OSX, so the install/configuration posts will dwindle.

And in a nutshell that's what *should* happen to this list - it 
should become a low volume, once in a while "anyone know what the 
hell's happening here?" type of list, but one that focuses on getting 
perl/related stuff working under OSX.

If there's a case for a macosx-perl-beginners, then all well and 
good, somebody set up macosx-perl-beginners. But I'm not sure that 
the perl lists in place don't already cater for beginners - and if 
you can't track down the beginners' lists at lists.perl.org, well...

Alternatively this could work the other way round with this list 
being the newbie list and another being set up for the install 
problems. (Puneet's suggestion about the website was a good one).

I don't think this is an issue of mail filters and kill files. I 
think these are 2 distinct discussion spaces.

Sorry to be a nasty person, but that's just how I, not a leet hacker 
just a humble designer who codes a bit, see it.

Re: Rules Of Engagement (What the Hell is this List for anyway?)

[Chris Devers]

On Tue, 16 Apr 2002, Puneet Kishor wrote:

> On Tuesday, April 16, 2002, at 01:47  AM, Bruce Van Allen wrote:
>
> > 2.  Chris has promptly and forthrightly apologized; any further
> > discussion that does not acknowledge this would seem inappropriate.
>
> I do acknowledge, it is very kind of you Chris. I commend that. I have
> also commended you on the pains you take in writing clear explanations,
> but now cringe at the thought that you/others might be prefixing it with
> a sigh of boredom.

I'm very sorry that I've led you to think that. More than once you have
sent a nice polite thank you message off list after I posted a reply on-,
and it still bothers me that I responded to that so rudely. :(

> On Tuesday, April 16, 2002, at 01:51  AM, Ken Williams wrote:

basically what I was getting at, but much more politely and without
singling anyone out. He raised the points that I do find more significant,
namely that a list like this is going to have two audiences: [a] seasoned
hackers that just see OSX as another platform to adapt to, and [b] people
exposed to Perl for the first time by OSX, and looking for introductory
tips and advice. These audiences can gain a lot from sharing a list, but
at the same time they have kind of opposite aims. In the long run, it
isn't clear to me where things can or should evolve from that background.

> > On Tuesday, April 16, 2002, at 02:02 PM, ashley wrote:
> >
> > Which begs the question of what the hell *is* this list for, anyway?
>
> Yes indeed... what is it for, and who decides that?

Well, we do, of course. Peer pressure, mutual concensus, topic drift. The
only question is how deliberately do we steer it in whatever direction it
goes, as opposed to just letting it drift along.

> I (or any other beginner for that matter) cannot learn Perl or be
> endeared to it if I constantly live under the fear that every question I
> submit to the list is possible going to offend some seasoned Perl
> hacker.

I strongly agree, and I strongly feel that beginners should feel welcome
to ask any kind of Perl questions without having to worry that some
slightly more experienced nitwit is looking down his nose at them. We
*all* have a lot to learn -- I know I have a hell of a lot to learn.
Explaining what intro stuff I can helps me clarify my understanding of
that material (and hopefully help others too), but I still feel that my
grasp of all this is intermediate at best. No one should ever be made to
feel that an on-topic question would ever be offensive to the others.

Again, just to wrap up my involvement in this sordid thread, I am very
sorry for being so rude, and I really hope that I didn't scare anyone off
from posting anything, expecially newbie questions. [1]



--
Chris Devers[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Apache / mod_perl / http://homepage.mac.com/chdevers/resume/

"More war soon. You know how it is."-- mnftiu.cc


[1] Except Alex Robinson, that other-list polluting bastard.   :)

Re: Rules Of Engagement (What the Hell is this List for anyway?)

[Puneet Kishor]

On Tuesday, April 16, 2002, at 01:47  AM, Bruce Van Allen wrote:

> 2.  Chris has promptly and forthrightly apologized; any further 
> discussion that does not acknowledge this would seem inappropriate.

I do acknowledge, it is very kind of you Chris. I commend that. I have 
also commended you on the pains you take in writing clear explanations, 
but now cringe at the thought that you/others might be prefixing it with 
a sigh of boredom.

On Tuesday, April 16, 2002, at 01:51  AM, Ken Williams wrote:

> On Tuesday, April 16, 2002, at 02:02 PM, ashley wrote:
> this list is becoming nearly useless if os x is supposed
> to be its focus.
>
> Which begs the question of what the hell *is* this list for, anyway?

Yes indeed... what is it for, and who decides that? Esp. since 
everything I might want to know about Perl I can find on Google. I am a 
MacOS X user, and I am using (learning) Perl. So I am on a macosx@perl 
list. I have asked questions on how to make Perl work, as well as on how 
to work with Perl.

I (or any other beginner for that matter) cannot learn Perl or be 
endeared to it if I constantly live under the fear that every question I 
submit to the list is possible going to offend some seasoned Perl hacker.

Funny thing is, I am an advanced computer user/programmer. I am a 
beginner only as far as Perl is concerned. And as much as I am enamored 
with Perl (mainly because of its inherent linguistic bent and cultural 
chaos both of which appeal to the non-computer side of me), I have 
encountered nothing but pain in the derriere trying to make it work. 
Only last night was I finally able to make Perl/mod_perl/Apache work 
using Randal's instructions I found at 
http://mathforum.org/epigone/modperl/fermkhiwhand/m1wv11m544.fsf_-_@halfdome.
holdit.com (via David Wheeler). That it took me so long is abominable. 
That I kept on trying is amazing.

I don't _have_ to use Perl. My only paying job involves exclusive use of 
Windows using CF/PHP/JavaScript and the usual databases. Perl is not 
easy. It is not easy to install, configure, or learn. But Perl is fun, 
just like MacOS. For me Macs make computers bearable, and now Perl does 
the same.

Please, please don't take the fun out of it for those beginning with it. 
If you don't want to respond to the question, delete it. If you don't 
like a particular subscriber, put a mail filter. You will be doing a 
disservice to a language you love, but at least no one will be 
discouraged.

As on Monday, April 15, 2002, at 11:41  PM, Peter N Lewis wrote:

> The folks who ask simple questions today are the ones answering them 
> for newbies next week - that's the way these things work...

'nuff said. Cheers.

pk/

Rules Of Engagement (What the Hell is this List for anyway?)

[ellem]

Any list, newsgroup or human conversation will veer off course possibly 
towards absurdity.  This is the nature of thought exchange.  I lurk much 
of the time and gleen as much as I can from everything I read here.

Seeing Randal hoping for readable code was... wonderful.

That may not be Perl OS X specific but wonderful none the less.

As long as a large Lizard doesn't stop by we're all fine.

If there is someone here who hasn't accidentally replied to the 
unintended audience well you're a better emailer than the rest of us.

Perl, specific to OS X can certainly fill a list on it's own but I think 
it would become, quickly, a bore.

:)I mean as long as we're not talking about Python...:)

--
Lou Moran
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ellem.dyn.dhs.org:5281/
(OS X)