Re: Big Sur first impressions

[Mike Arrigo]

I wonder if you can use the arrow keys to navigate around in that screen. With 
the boot manager on Intel macs, you could use the left and right arrows to 
select a start up disk and then press enter.

> On Dec 21, 2020, at 12:10 PM, Steve Matzura  wrote:
> 
> No way can it be accessible because there's no operating system at that 
> point. The reason for this is probably because all the M1 stuff pre-supposes 
> you're using a Bluetooth keyboard. How the Bluetooth subsystem is working at 
> that stage of the boot process I haven't the first clue. Maybe there are no 
> additional key-presses involved once you hold that power button for those 
> five seconds. I suppose I could be brave and give it a try.
> 
> 
> On 12/21/2020 10:44 AM, Mike Arrigo wrote:
>> I know with the M1 macs, there is a new way of selecting a start up disk, 
>> you hold the power button for a few seconds. With the Intel macs, you would 
>> hold the option key but apparently with the M1 macs you can do a bit more 
>> from the menu that appears if you hold the power button. Do you know if this 
>> menu is accessible?
>> Original message:
>>> You certainly said a mouthful about Messages. I've found workarounds,
>>> and the 11.1 update definitely improved things, but not enough to the
>>> point where I'd say it was as usable as it was on Catalina. The way
>>> message conversations are selected for posting new messages or even
>>> deleting the conversation requires more VoiceOver gestures/steps, too,
>>> not to exclude what you wrote which is also absolutely correct.
>> 
>> 
>>> I haven't tried the Dock stuff yet, but I'm sure it's exactly as you
>>> reported.
>> 
>> 
>>> One wonders, what were the accessibility testers thinking when it was
>>> pointed out to them during the beta cycle that these things were
>>> different enough such that retraining would be required? I totally had
>>> to retrain myself with Messages, for sure. Unfortunately, I can't go
>>> back to Catalina because I have the M1 Mac, and I took on the challenge
>>> of being an early adopter, so I await improvements which will surely
>>> come. There are a lot of core applications--core for my use anyway--that
>>> are not yet M1-ready, and I agreed to wait for these, but I do like my
>>> M1 Mini for all the core Apple stuff, except Messages,of course, and
>>> probably a few more as I continue to explore Big Sur.
>> 
>> 
>>> On 12/20/2020 7:25 PM, Mike Arrigo wrote:
 I decided to give Big Sur a try on one of my macs, and honestly, I'm 
 thinking about going back to Catalina. Since I became a Mac user back in 
 2008, I think this is the first time that I've considered going back to a 
 previous version of Mac OS, but for me at least, there are some major 
 issues.
 First, whenever I install a major upgrade of the operating system, I 
 prefer to erase my drive and install from scratch. With the recovery for 
 Big Sur 11.1 this is impossible, Voiceover completely crashes when trying 
 to access the table of disks in disk utility. So, I had to boot a Catalina 
 recovery to erase my drive. Once that was done I booted from the Big Sur 
 install drive I made and the install completed fine.
 I think there is a major issue with adding or removing items from the 
 dock. Previously you could move to an item and then press the up arrow 
 which would give you the menu for that item. In Big Sur, this works the 
 first time although when you select the option to remove from dock or keep 
 in dock, that action does not take place. After that, bringing up the 
 context menu for a dock item is impossible, pressing up arrow, using 
 vo+shift+m or right clicking the mouse on the item just returns you to the 
 desktop.
 The next issue is with the new messages app, while it's useable, the 
 experience is cumbersome at best. Voiceover tends to get stuck and you 
 can't navigate left or right, you have to either use the tab key or use 
 Voiceover's go to beginning or go to end commands to try to get out of the 
 area that Voiceover is stuck in. Also, when writing a message, the read 
 current line command does not work. This is the first time I've really 
 been disappointed with an operating system upgrade, as I said, more than 
 likely I will be going back to Catalina, I may play with it for another 
 couple days but if I can't make these things work better than that's what 
 I'm going to do.
>> 
>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at: 
>>>  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 

Re: Dock issue in Big Sur

[Mike Arrigo]

I have actually tried this, interesting that it does work on the M1 macs, I'm 
using an Intel based mac mini, I think this generation was introduced in 2014 
and they were sold until 2018. I'll try the voiceover menu, I set up numpad 
star to do a right click of the mouse and that does not work. Sounds like it 
mainly happens when using the dock with the keyboard.

> On Dec 21, 2020, at 12:08 PM, 'Larry Honaker' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Greetings All,
> 
> As several folks have reported, I have experienced the bug in Big Sur in 
> regards to invoking the menu on items in the dock. I am using a new M1 
> MacBookAir.
> 
> I have spent some time with Apple Support and they have provided a sort of 
> workaround for this issue. It certainly is  not as convenient as the original 
> VO+Shift+m; however, it works “most” of the time—and I emphasize , “most” as 
> the workaround does not always open the menu for me.
> 
> Anyway, here is the workaround and it is better than nothing until they get 
> the bug fixed.
> 
> 1. Go to the dock with VO+d
> 2. Navigate to the item you wish to work with
> 3. Press the key combination of VO+function+Command+5 
>  (VO says the name of the app you are focused on in the dock)
> 4. Press VO+h+H
> 5. Type r I (no space between the r and i)
> 6. VO will say right mouse click; press return
> This usually opens up the menu where you can access options and other choices 
> usually displayed thru the VO+Shift+m menu.
> 
> Again, not perfect but it has worked fairly reliably for me so far.
> 
> Hope this helps anyone else dealing with this issue.
> 
> Larry W. Honaker
> 
> kc8...@icloud.com
> 
> Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. 
> (Psalm 119:105 KJV)
> 
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/73733ED2-0430-4626-909B-E1E78F2BB236%40icloud.com.

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/A7A5B671-B56A-4048-B449-2EE86268C438%40charter.net.

Re: text messages

[Brad Snyder]

Then you will have to do as Herbie recommended, and start a new conversation.

- Brad -


On Dec 21, 2020, at 16:59, Lorie McCloud  wrote:

that would've worked great if my contact had been an iPhone user. really good 
instructions. thanks.

> On Dec 21, 2020, at 4:45 PM, Brad Snyder  > wrote:
> 
> Actually, you can add people to an existing iMessage conversation as follows:
> 1.  Open the existing conversation, and double tap on the list of recipients 
> at the top of the message.
> 2.  Select the Info button that appears below the list of recipients.
> 3.  Swipe past the list of recipients, and you should find an Add Contacts 
> button.
> 4.  Type in the names of the contacts you would like to add to the 
> conversation, and then select the Done button in the upper right corner.
> 5.  Once back in the Conversation Details screen, select the Done button in 
> the upper right corner of this screen to return to the iMessage Conversation.
> 
> I’m not sure if this will work for conversations that contain one or more 
> non-iMessage contacts, so you will have to investigate for yourself. 
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> On Dec 21, 2020, at 16:02, Herbie Allen  > wrote:
> 
> You have to start a new conversation and add people that way. Start typing a 
> number or part of a contact until suggestions appear. Select who you want and 
> start typing the next.
> 
> 
> Herbie
> 
>> On Dec 21, 2020, at 13:57, Lorie McCloud > > wrote:
>> 
>> How do I add somebody to a group text on an iPhone?
>> 
>> thanks.
>> Lorie
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
>> can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>> 
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/3CAAEC2A-B08F-48B7-A668-B30A8B0EDAAA%40gmail.com
>>  
>> .
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can 
> reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
> 
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> .
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/044C0C20-7EC5-477C-B606-32A5B018E108%40gmail.com
>  
> .
> 
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>  
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
> mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can 
> reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>  
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
> 
> --- 
> You received this message because 

Re: text messages

[Lorie McCloud]

that would've worked great if my contact had been an iPhone user. really good 
instructions. thanks.

> On Dec 21, 2020, at 4:45 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> Actually, you can add people to an existing iMessage conversation as follows:
> 1.  Open the existing conversation, and double tap on the list of recipients 
> at the top of the message.
> 2.  Select the Info button that appears below the list of recipients.
> 3.  Swipe past the list of recipients, and you should find an Add Contacts 
> button.
> 4.  Type in the names of the contacts you would like to add to the 
> conversation, and then select the Done button in the upper right corner.
> 5.  Once back in the Conversation Details screen, select the Done button in 
> the upper right corner of this screen to return to the iMessage Conversation.
> 
> I’m not sure if this will work for conversations that contain one or more 
> non-iMessage contacts, so you will have to investigate for yourself. 
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> On Dec 21, 2020, at 16:02, Herbie Allen  > wrote:
> 
> You have to start a new conversation and add people that way. Start typing a 
> number or part of a contact until suggestions appear. Select who you want and 
> start typing the next.
> 
> 
> Herbie
> 
>> On Dec 21, 2020, at 13:57, Lorie McCloud > > wrote:
>> 
>> How do I add somebody to a group text on an iPhone?
>> 
>> thanks.
>> Lorie
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
>> can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
>> 
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/3CAAEC2A-B08F-48B7-A668-B30A8B0EDAAA%40gmail.com.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu  and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can 
> reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
> 
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/044C0C20-7EC5-477C-B606-32A5B018E108%40gmail.com.
> 
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>  
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>  
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ 
> 
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> .
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/5BB38DA0-CDC5-4148-B0BF-73E9F41C549B%40swbell.net
>  
> .

-- 
The 

Re: Dock issue in Big Sur

[Brad Snyder]

The next time you find yourself stuck in the window control button area, try 
using Fn + VO + left or right arrow to move VO to a different part of the 
window.

- Brad -


On Dec 21, 2020, at 14:40, matthew dyer  
wrote:

Hi,

Not sure if this is related, but I am having a problem where voice over 
gets stuck in the music app. Fore example, there are three buttons near 
the top of the window close, minize and fullscreen.  The wayI get around 
it is to restart the app.  If I use the tab key, i can get to some of 
the other items.  VO however does not let me vo past the fullscreen 
button.  Anyone else have this problem?

Thanks.

Matthew



On 12/21/20 1:08 PM, 'Larry Honaker' via MacVisionaries wrote:
> Greetings All,
> 
> As several folks have reported, I have experienced the bug in Big Sur in 
> regards to invoking the menu on items in the dock. I am using a new M1 
> MacBookAir.
> 
> I have spent some time with Apple Support and they have provided a sort of 
> workaround for this issue. It certainly is  not as convenient as the original 
> VO+Shift+m; however, it works “most” of the time—and I emphasize , “most” as 
> the workaround does not always open the menu for me.
> 
> Anyway, here is the workaround and it is better than nothing until they get 
> the bug fixed.
> 
> 1. Go to the dock with VO+d
> 2. Navigate to the item you wish to work with
> 3. Press the key combination of VO+function+Command+5
>   (VO says the name of the app you are focused on in the dock)
> 4. Press VO+h+H
> 5. Type r I (no space between the r and i)
> 6. VO will say right mouse click; press return
> This usually opens up the menu where you can access options and other choices 
> usually displayed thru the VO+Shift+m menu.
> 
> Again, not perfect but it has worked fairly reliably for me so far.
> 
> Hope this helps anyone else dealing with this issue.
> 
> Larry W. Honaker
> 
> kc8...@icloud.com
> 
> Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
> (Psalm 119:105 KJV)
> 
> 

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/90406ab1-1292-bb78-58fd-06b97b47ac53%40outlook.com.

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/4436FFD8-B71C-46EA-B57D-A30E3EEEA7B1%40swbell.net.

Re: text messages

[Brad Snyder]

Actually, you can add people to an existing iMessage conversation as follows:
1.  Open the existing conversation, and double tap on the list of recipients at 
the top of the message.
2.  Select the Info button that appears below the list of recipients.
3.  Swipe past the list of recipients, and you should find an Add Contacts 
button.
4.  Type in the names of the contacts you would like to add to the 
conversation, and then select the Done button in the upper right corner.
5.  Once back in the Conversation Details screen, select the Done button in the 
upper right corner of this screen to return to the iMessage Conversation.

I’m not sure if this will work for conversations that contain one or more 
non-iMessage contacts, so you will have to investigate for yourself. 

- Brad -


On Dec 21, 2020, at 16:02, Herbie Allen  wrote:

You have to start a new conversation and add people that way. Start typing a 
number or part of a contact until suggestions appear. Select who you want and 
start typing the next.


Herbie

> On Dec 21, 2020, at 13:57, Lorie McCloud  wrote:
> 
> How do I add somebody to a group text on an iPhone?
> 
> thanks.
> Lorie
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/3CAAEC2A-B08F-48B7-A668-B30A8B0EDAAA%40gmail.com.

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/044C0C20-7EC5-477C-B606-32A5B018E108%40gmail.com.

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/5BB38DA0-CDC5-4148-B0BF-73E9F41C549B%40swbell.net.

Re: text messages

[Herbie Allen]

You have to start a new conversation and add people that way. Start typing a 
number or part of a contact until suggestions appear. Select who you want and 
start typing the next.


Herbie

> On Dec 21, 2020, at 13:57, Lorie McCloud  wrote:
> 
> How do I add somebody to a group text on an iPhone?
> 
> thanks.
> Lorie
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/3CAAEC2A-B08F-48B7-A668-B30A8B0EDAAA%40gmail.com.

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/044C0C20-7EC5-477C-B606-32A5B018E108%40gmail.com.

Re: Dock issue in Big Sur

[matthew dyer]

Hi,

Not sure if this is related, but I am having a problem where voice over 
gets stuck in the music app. Fore example, there are three buttons near 
the top of the window close, minize and fullscreen.  The wayI get around 
it is to restart the app.  If I use the tab key, i can get to some of 
the other items.  VO however does not let me vo past the fullscreen 
button.  Anyone else have this problem?

Thanks.

Matthew



On 12/21/20 1:08 PM, 'Larry Honaker' via MacVisionaries wrote:
> Greetings All,
>
> As several folks have reported, I have experienced the bug in Big Sur in 
> regards to invoking the menu on items in the dock. I am using a new M1 
> MacBookAir.
>
> I have spent some time with Apple Support and they have provided a sort of 
> workaround for this issue. It certainly is  not as convenient as the original 
> VO+Shift+m; however, it works “most” of the time—and I emphasize , “most” as 
> the workaround does not always open the menu for me.
>
> Anyway, here is the workaround and it is better than nothing until they get 
> the bug fixed.
>
> 1. Go to the dock with VO+d
> 2. Navigate to the item you wish to work with
> 3. Press the key combination of VO+function+Command+5
>(VO says the name of the app you are focused on in the dock)
> 4. Press VO+h+H
> 5. Type r I (no space between the r and i)
> 6. VO will say right mouse click; press return
> This usually opens up the menu where you can access options and other choices 
> usually displayed thru the VO+Shift+m menu.
>
> Again, not perfect but it has worked fairly reliably for me so far.
>
> Hope this helps anyone else dealing with this issue.
>
> Larry W. Honaker
>
> kc8...@icloud.com
>
> Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
> (Psalm 119:105 KJV)
>
>

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/90406ab1-1292-bb78-58fd-06b97b47ac53%40outlook.com.

text messages

[Lorie McCloud]

How do I add somebody to a group text on an iPhone?

thanks.
Lorie

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/3CAAEC2A-B08F-48B7-A668-B30A8B0EDAAA%40gmail.com.

Re: Fast Way to Switch Voices?

['Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries]

I created a quick html document using lang= tagging, but this doesn't
appear to work as it theoretically should.

Brandon Olivares writes:
> Hi,
> 
> Yes I have automatic language detection on, but it doesn’t really work if I’m 
> in a text document or just want to type in another language.
> 
> I did get it to work with activities. I created a French activity that 
> switches to the French voice. That seems to work pretty well.
> 
> Brandon
> 
> > On Dec 21, 2020, at 1:08 PM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > No, I don’t think there is.  I assume you run Big Sur or Catalina?  It used 
> > to be very easy to do so but since Sierra, you have to arrow through a 
> > myriad of other voices to change back between two different languages.  
> > Apple is not taking much notice of this side of things but do badger them 
> > as I do.  Have you tried to choose automatic language detection?  I think 
> > it’s the first choice when you press vo+command+shift+uparrow.
> > 
> > Andrew
> >> On 20 Dec 2020, at 16:25, Brandon Olivares  
> >> wrote:
> >> 
> >> I’m learning French, and I’d love a way to quickly switch to the French 
> >> voice. I’ve used VO-CMD-Shift-arrows to select voices but there are too 
> >> many and so it takes time to select the French one. Is there some faster 
> >> way to select a specific voice, maybe through activities or something like 
> >> that?
> >> 
> >> Thanks,
> >> Brandon
> >> 
> >> -- 
> >> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
> >> Visionaries list.
> >> 
> >> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
> >> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
> >> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> >> 
> >> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark 
> >> at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> >> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> >> 
> >> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> >> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> >> --- 
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> >> "MacVisionaries" group.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> >> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> >> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/C1140726-87D2-426D-BF73-E8FC0AF18778%40gmail.com.
> > 
> > -- 
> > The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
> > Visionaries list.
> > 
> > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
> > or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> > 
> > Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at: 
> >  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> > caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> > 
> > The archives for this list can be searched at:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> > --- 
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> > "MacVisionaries" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit 
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/4F32DF7D-C81F-4D6C-B961-A1E33B0E58FC%40me.com.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/3564E283-75FC-4680-95EB-01B6F8F2707A%40gmail.com.

-- 

Janina Sajka
https://linkedin.com/in/jsajka

Linux Foundation Fellow
Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:   http://a11y.org

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Co-Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of 

Re: Daisy Reader on the Mac?

['Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries]

Hi,

On Dolphin website it says easy reader for mac is not available in UK.  Is this 
possible?

Andrew
> On 19 Dec 2020, at 03:32, Gerry Cook  wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> Don’t be shy to ask if you need help with it.
> I will try to help you out.
> /A
> 
>> 17 dec. 2020 kl. 23:22 skrev 'Larry Honaker' via MacVisionaries 
>> :
>> 
>> Thanks! I can find it. I appreciate the info.
>> 
>> Kindly yours,
>> 
>> Larry W. Honaker
>> 
>> kc8...@icloud.com
>> 
>> Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. 
>> (Psalm 119:105 KJV)
>> 
>> 
>>> On Dec 17, 2020, at 1:01 PM, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi!
>>> 
>>> Dolphin EasyReader for Mac.
>>> I don’t know the link but I can try to provide one.
>>> /A
>>> 
 17 dec. 2020 kl. 15:35 skrev 'Larry Honaker' via MacVisionaries 
 :
 
 Is anyone using a good Daisy Reader on the Mac? 
 
 This would be for Daisy audio and Daisy text files.
 
 Any info appreciated.
 
 Most cordially,
 
 Larry Honaker
 
 kc8...@icloud.com
 
 -- 
 The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
 Visionaries list.
 
 If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
 if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
 owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
 
 Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark 
 at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
 caraqu...@caraquinn.com
 
 The archives for this list can be searched at:
 http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
 --- 
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
 "MacVisionaries" group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
 email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
 To view this discussion on the web visit 
 https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/17789817-3812-4A3D-91E8-5F4312E8D893%40icloud.com.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at: 
>>>  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>>> --- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/9A7DD116-7EF0-4B9E-8A9D-13F4A051B90C%40pipkrokodil.se.
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/A32BBFCB-ECC0-4669-BC9E-D3399226AD7B%40icloud.com.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to 

Re: Dock issue in Big Sur

['Kliph' via MacVisionaries]

Vo shift m works for me just fine.  And for those who use zoom on the Mac with 
the new M1’s, they released an update this morning.

My groups
User of just apple products, like to ask and answer without other topics?  
That’s how it goes down in the “only Apple talk and support group”. Subscribe 
here
only-apple-tns+subscr...@groups.io 
Come talk just apple!
Beta tester for apple products?  come help squash the bugs
public-beta-users+subscr...@groups.io 

Because of the non disclosure agreement, if your not a beta tester, please 
don’t join the group.
Have a braille display?  Come teach and learn with others
braille-display-users+subscr...@groups.io 




> On Dec 21, 2020, at 12:08 PM, 'Larry Honaker' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Greetings All,
> 
> As several folks have reported, I have experienced the bug in Big Sur in 
> regards to invoking the menu on items in the dock. I am using a new M1 
> MacBookAir.
> 
> I have spent some time with Apple Support and they have provided a sort of 
> workaround for this issue. It certainly is  not as convenient as the original 
> VO+Shift+m; however, it works “most” of the time—and I emphasize , “most” as 
> the workaround does not always open the menu for me.
> 
> Anyway, here is the workaround and it is better than nothing until they get 
> the bug fixed.
> 
> 1. Go to the dock with VO+d
> 2. Navigate to the item you wish to work with
> 3. Press the key combination of VO+function+Command+5 
>  (VO says the name of the app you are focused on in the dock)
> 4. Press VO+h+H
> 5. Type r I (no space between the r and i)
> 6. VO will say right mouse click; press return
> This usually opens up the menu where you can access options and other choices 
> usually displayed thru the VO+Shift+m menu.
> 
> Again, not perfect but it has worked fairly reliably for me so far.
> 
> Hope this helps anyone else dealing with this issue.
> 
> Larry W. Honaker
> 
> kc8...@icloud.com
> 
> Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. 
> (Psalm 119:105 KJV)
> 
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/73733ED2-0430-4626-909B-E1E78F2BB236%40icloud.com.

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/71808F8B-9AF3-427C-91F1-924038AB2AA2%40icloud.com.

Re: Fast Way to Switch Voices?

[Brandon Olivares]

Hi,

Yes I have automatic language detection on, but it doesn’t really work if I’m 
in a text document or just want to type in another language.

I did get it to work with activities. I created a French activity that switches 
to the French voice. That seems to work pretty well.

Brandon

> On Dec 21, 2020, at 1:08 PM, 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> No, I don’t think there is.  I assume you run Big Sur or Catalina?  It used 
> to be very easy to do so but since Sierra, you have to arrow through a myriad 
> of other voices to change back between two different languages.  Apple is not 
> taking much notice of this side of things but do badger them as I do.  Have 
> you tried to choose automatic language detection?  I think it’s the first 
> choice when you press vo+command+shift+uparrow.
> 
> Andrew
>> On 20 Dec 2020, at 16:25, Brandon Olivares  wrote:
>> 
>> I’m learning French, and I’d love a way to quickly switch to the French 
>> voice. I’ve used VO-CMD-Shift-arrows to select voices but there are too many 
>> and so it takes time to select the French one. Is there some faster way to 
>> select a specific voice, maybe through activities or something like that?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Brandon
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
>> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>> --- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/C1140726-87D2-426D-BF73-E8FC0AF18778%40gmail.com.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/4F32DF7D-C81F-4D6C-B961-A1E33B0E58FC%40me.com.

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/3564E283-75FC-4680-95EB-01B6F8F2707A%40gmail.com.

Re: Big Sur first impressions

[Steve Matzura]

No way can it be accessible because there's no operating system at that 
point. The reason for this is probably because all the M1 stuff 
pre-supposes you're using a Bluetooth keyboard. How the Bluetooth 
subsystem is working at that stage of the boot process I haven't the 
first clue. Maybe there are no additional key-presses involved once you 
hold that power button for those five seconds. I suppose I could be 
brave and give it a try.



On 12/21/2020 10:44 AM, Mike Arrigo wrote:
I know with the M1 macs, there is a new way of selecting a start up 
disk, you hold the power button for a few seconds. With the Intel 
macs, you would hold the option key but apparently with the M1 macs 
you can do a bit more from the menu that appears if you hold the power 
button. Do you know if this menu is accessible?

Original message:

You certainly said a mouthful about Messages. I've found workarounds,
and the 11.1 update definitely improved things, but not enough to the
point where I'd say it was as usable as it was on Catalina. The way
message conversations are selected for posting new messages or even
deleting the conversation requires more VoiceOver gestures/steps, too,
not to exclude what you wrote which is also absolutely correct.




I haven't tried the Dock stuff yet, but I'm sure it's exactly as you
reported.




One wonders, what were the accessibility testers thinking when it was
pointed out to them during the beta cycle that these things were
different enough such that retraining would be required? I totally had
to retrain myself with Messages, for sure. Unfortunately, I can't go
back to Catalina because I have the M1 Mac, and I took on the challenge
of being an early adopter, so I await improvements which will surely
come. There are a lot of core applications--core for my use anyway--that
are not yet M1-ready, and I agreed to wait for these, but I do like my
M1 Mini for all the core Apple stuff, except Messages,of course, and
probably a few more as I continue to explore Big Sur.




On 12/20/2020 7:25 PM, Mike Arrigo wrote:
I decided to give Big Sur a try on one of my macs, and honestly, I'm 
thinking about going back to Catalina. Since I became a Mac user 
back in 2008, I think this is the first time that I've considered 
going back to a previous version of Mac OS, but for me at least, 
there are some major issues.
First, whenever I install a major upgrade of the operating system, I 
prefer to erase my drive and install from scratch. With the recovery 
for Big Sur 11.1 this is impossible, Voiceover completely crashes 
when trying to access the table of disks in disk utility. So, I had 
to boot a Catalina recovery to erase my drive. Once that was done I 
booted from the Big Sur install drive I made and the install 
completed fine.
I think there is a major issue with adding or removing items from 
the dock. Previously you could move to an item and then press the up 
arrow which would give you the menu for that item. In Big Sur, this 
works the first time although when you select the option to remove 
from dock or keep in dock, that action does not take place. After 
that, bringing up the context menu for a dock item is impossible, 
pressing up arrow, using vo+shift+m or right clicking the mouse on 
the item just returns you to the desktop.
The next issue is with the new messages app, while it's useable, the 
experience is cumbersome at best. Voiceover tends to get stuck and 
you can't navigate left or right, you have to either use the tab key 
or use Voiceover's go to beginning or go to end commands to try to 
get out of the area that Voiceover is stuck in. Also, when writing a 
message, the read current line command does not work. This is the 
first time I've really been disappointed with an operating system 
upgrade, as I said, more than likely I will be going back to 
Catalina, I may play with it for another couple days but if I can't 
make these things work better than that's what I'm going to do.




--
The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
Visionaries list.


If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, 
or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact 
the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list 
itself.


Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach 
mark at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach 
Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com



The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, 
send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/09e1e5f7-33a4-08ef-8688-7b98e40fc45a%40noisynotes.com.




--
The following information is important for 

Re: Fast Way to Switch Voices?

['Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries]

No, I don’t think there is.  I assume you run Big Sur or Catalina?  It used to 
be very easy to do so but since Sierra, you have to arrow through a myriad of 
other voices to change back between two different languages.  Apple is not 
taking much notice of this side of things but do badger them as I do.  Have you 
tried to choose automatic language detection?  I think it’s the first choice 
when you press vo+command+shift+uparrow.

Andrew
> On 20 Dec 2020, at 16:25, Brandon Olivares  wrote:
> 
> I’m learning French, and I’d love a way to quickly switch to the French 
> voice. I’ve used VO-CMD-Shift-arrows to select voices but there are too many 
> and so it takes time to select the French one. Is there some faster way to 
> select a specific voice, maybe through activities or something like that?
> 
> Thanks,
> Brandon
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/C1140726-87D2-426D-BF73-E8FC0AF18778%40gmail.com.

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/4F32DF7D-C81F-4D6C-B961-A1E33B0E58FC%40me.com.

Dock issue in Big Sur

['Larry Honaker' via MacVisionaries]

Greetings All,

As several folks have reported, I have experienced the bug in Big Sur in 
regards to invoking the menu on items in the dock. I am using a new M1 
MacBookAir.

I have spent some time with Apple Support and they have provided a sort of 
workaround for this issue. It certainly is  not as convenient as the original 
VO+Shift+m; however, it works “most” of the time—and I emphasize , “most” as 
the workaround does not always open the menu for me.

Anyway, here is the workaround and it is better than nothing until they get the 
bug fixed.

1. Go to the dock with VO+d
2. Navigate to the item you wish to work with
3. Press the key combination of VO+function+Command+5 
  (VO says the name of the app you are focused on in the dock)
4. Press VO+h+H
5. Type r I (no space between the r and i)
6. VO will say right mouse click; press return
This usually opens up the menu where you can access options and other choices 
usually displayed thru the VO+Shift+m menu.

Again, not perfect but it has worked fairly reliably for me so far.

Hope this helps anyone else dealing with this issue.

Larry W. Honaker

kc8...@icloud.com

Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. 
(Psalm 119:105 KJV)


-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/73733ED2-0430-4626-909B-E1E78F2BB236%40icloud.com.

Re: Big Sur first impressions

[Jürgen Fleger]

OK, that’s a bit different using german voices.
But most annoying to me is that I’m not able to set sleep mode longer than 2 
minutes in Systempreferences > Battery. Actually I can set it longer but 
Systempreferences forget about it after closing it. Hopefully this is a bug and 
Apple will fix this.


> Am 21.12.2020 um 15:19 schrieb Steve Matzura :
> 
> Haven't had the won't-stop-speaking problem, although, M1 notwithstanding, 
> sometimes it's a bit slow to respond when CTRL is pressed, but I've never had 
> it fail to shut the thing up.
> 
> 
> On 12/21/2020 4:18 AM, Jürgen Fleger wrote:
>> Yes, and there are some more issues:
>> Try to add a keyboard shortcut to a menu using Systempreferences > Keyboard 
>> >Shortcuts. On my MacBook Air 2020 with M1 chip Mac OS after a while forgets 
>> all added shortcuts.
>> CTRL doesn’t work relaiably anymore to stop VO from speaking. At least in 
>> all german voices that’s the case. This issue existed in a light version 
>> before but now it’s unlasting.
>> 
>> Really a disappointing OS to me as well this time. Hopefully Apple will 
>> discontiniuing this way.
>> 
>> 
>>> Am 21.12.2020 um 01:25 schrieb Mike Arrigo :
>>> 
>>> I decided to give Big Sur a try on one of my macs, and honestly, I'm 
>>> thinking about going back to Catalina. Since I became a Mac user back in 
>>> 2008, I think this is the first time that I've considered going back to a 
>>> previous version of Mac OS, but for me at least, there are some major 
>>> issues.
>>> First, whenever I install a major upgrade of the operating system, I prefer 
>>> to erase my drive and install from scratch. With the recovery for Big Sur 
>>> 11.1 this is impossible, Voiceover completely crashes when trying to access 
>>> the table of disks in disk utility. So, I had to boot a Catalina recovery 
>>> to erase my drive. Once that was done I booted from the Big Sur install 
>>> drive I made and the install completed fine.
>>> I think there is a major issue with adding or removing items from the dock. 
>>> Previously you could move to an item and then press the up arrow which 
>>> would give you the menu for that item. In Big Sur, this works the first 
>>> time although when you select the option to remove from dock or keep in 
>>> dock, that action does not take place. After that, bringing up the context 
>>> menu for a dock item is impossible, pressing up arrow, using vo+shift+m or 
>>> right clicking the mouse on the item just returns you to the desktop.
>>> The next issue is with the new messages app, while it's useable, the 
>>> experience is cumbersome at best. Voiceover tends to get stuck and you 
>>> can't navigate left or right, you have to either use the tab key or use 
>>> Voiceover's go to beginning or go to end commands to try to get out of the 
>>> area that Voiceover is stuck in. Also, when writing a message, the read 
>>> current line command does not work. This is the first time I've really been 
>>> disappointed with an operating system upgrade, as I said, more than likely 
>>> I will be going back to Catalina, I may play with it for another couple 
>>> days but if I can't make these things work better than that's what I'm 
>>> going to do.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at: 
>>>  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>>> ---
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/E2CBE7C4-8671-49DF-A573-90ECF00F4B5A%40charter.net.
>>> 
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To 

Re: Big Sur first impressions

[Mike Arrigo]

I know with the M1 macs, there is a new way of selecting a start up 
disk, you hold the power button for a few seconds. With the Intel macs, 
you would hold the option key but apparently with the M1 macs you can 
do a bit more from the menu that appears if you hold the power button. 
Do you know if this menu is accessible?

Original message:

You certainly said a mouthful about Messages. I've found workarounds,
and the 11.1 update definitely improved things, but not enough to the
point where I'd say it was as usable as it was on Catalina. The way
message conversations are selected for posting new messages or even
deleting the conversation requires more VoiceOver gestures/steps, too,
not to exclude what you wrote which is also absolutely correct.




I haven't tried the Dock stuff yet, but I'm sure it's exactly as you
reported.




One wonders, what were the accessibility testers thinking when it was
pointed out to them during the beta cycle that these things were
different enough such that retraining would be required? I totally had
to retrain myself with Messages, for sure. Unfortunately, I can't go
back to Catalina because I have the M1 Mac, and I took on the challenge
of being an early adopter, so I await improvements which will surely
come. There are a lot of core applications--core for my use anyway--that
are not yet M1-ready, and I agreed to wait for these, but I do like my
M1 Mini for all the core Apple stuff, except Messages,of course, and
probably a few more as I continue to explore Big Sur.




On 12/20/2020 7:25 PM, Mike Arrigo wrote:
I decided to give Big Sur a try on one of my macs, and honestly, I'm 
thinking about going back to Catalina. Since I became a Mac user back 
in 2008, I think this is the first time that I've considered going back 
to a previous version of Mac OS, but for me at least, there are some 
major issues.
First, whenever I install a major upgrade of the operating system, I 
prefer to erase my drive and install from scratch. With the recovery 
for Big Sur 11.1 this is impossible, Voiceover completely crashes when 
trying to access the table of disks in disk utility. So, I had to boot 
a Catalina recovery to erase my drive. Once that was done I booted from 
the Big Sur install drive I made and the install completed fine.
I think there is a major issue with adding or removing items from the 
dock. Previously you could move to an item and then press the up arrow 
which would give you the menu for that item. In Big Sur, this works the 
first time although when you select the option to remove from dock or 
keep in dock, that action does not take place. After that, bringing up 
the context menu for a dock item is impossible, pressing up arrow, 
using vo+shift+m or right clicking the mouse on the item just returns 
you to the desktop.
The next issue is with the new messages app, while it's useable, the 
experience is cumbersome at best. Voiceover tends to get stuck and you 
can't navigate left or right, you have to either use the tab key or use 
Voiceover's go to beginning or go to end commands to try to get out of 
the area that Voiceover is stuck in. Also, when writing a message, the 
read current line command does not work. This is the first time I've 
really been disappointed with an operating system upgrade, as I said, 
more than likely I will be going back to Catalina, I may play with it 
for another couple days but if I can't make these things work better 
than that's what I'm going to do.




--
The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
Visionaries list.


If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, 
or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact 
the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.


Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark 
at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara 
at caraqu...@caraquinn.com



The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/09e1e5f7-33a4-08ef-8688-7b98e40fc45a%40noisynotes.com.


--
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:

Re: Big Sur first impressions

[Steve Matzura]

Haven't had the won't-stop-speaking problem, although, M1 
notwithstanding, sometimes it's a bit slow to respond when CTRL is 
pressed, but I've never had it fail to shut the thing up.



On 12/21/2020 4:18 AM, Jürgen Fleger wrote:

Yes, and there are some more issues:
Try to add a keyboard shortcut to a menu using Systempreferences > Keyboard 
>Shortcuts. On my MacBook Air 2020 with M1 chip Mac OS after a while forgets all 
added shortcuts.
CTRL doesn’t work relaiably anymore to stop VO from speaking. At least in all 
german voices that’s the case. This issue existed in a light version before but 
now it’s unlasting.

Really a disappointing OS to me as well this time. Hopefully Apple will 
discontiniuing this way.



Am 21.12.2020 um 01:25 schrieb Mike Arrigo :

I decided to give Big Sur a try on one of my macs, and honestly, I'm thinking 
about going back to Catalina. Since I became a Mac user back in 2008, I think 
this is the first time that I've considered going back to a previous version of 
Mac OS, but for me at least, there are some major issues.
First, whenever I install a major upgrade of the operating system, I prefer to 
erase my drive and install from scratch. With the recovery for Big Sur 11.1 
this is impossible, Voiceover completely crashes when trying to access the 
table of disks in disk utility. So, I had to boot a Catalina recovery to erase 
my drive. Once that was done I booted from the Big Sur install drive I made and 
the install completed fine.
I think there is a major issue with adding or removing items from the dock. 
Previously you could move to an item and then press the up arrow which would 
give you the menu for that item. In Big Sur, this works the first time although 
when you select the option to remove from dock or keep in dock, that action 
does not take place. After that, bringing up the context menu for a dock item 
is impossible, pressing up arrow, using vo+shift+m or right clicking the mouse 
on the item just returns you to the desktop.
The next issue is with the new messages app, while it's useable, the experience 
is cumbersome at best. Voiceover tends to get stuck and you can't navigate left 
or right, you have to either use the tab key or use Voiceover's go to beginning 
or go to end commands to try to get out of the area that Voiceover is stuck in. 
Also, when writing a message, the read current line command does not work. This 
is the first time I've really been disappointed with an operating system 
upgrade, as I said, more than likely I will be going back to Catalina, I may 
play with it for another couple days but if I can't make these things work 
better than that's what I'm going to do.

--
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/E2CBE7C4-8671-49DF-A573-90ECF00F4B5A%40charter.net.



--
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/27535139-c647-c3df-4bbe-98a2db022c7c%40noisynotes.com.

Re: Big Sur first impressions

[Steve Matzura]

You certainly said a mouthful about Messages. I've found workarounds, 
and the 11.1 update definitely improved things, but not enough to the 
point where I'd say it was as usable as it was on Catalina. The way 
message conversations are selected for posting new messages or even 
deleting the conversation requires more VoiceOver gestures/steps, too, 
not to exclude what you wrote which is also absolutely correct.



I haven't tried the Dock stuff yet, but I'm sure it's exactly as you 
reported.



One wonders, what were the accessibility testers thinking when it was 
pointed out to them during the beta cycle that these things were 
different enough such that retraining would be required? I totally had 
to retrain myself with Messages, for sure. Unfortunately, I can't go 
back to Catalina because I have the M1 Mac, and I took on the challenge 
of being an early adopter, so I await improvements which will surely 
come. There are a lot of core applications--core for my use anyway--that 
are not yet M1-ready, and I agreed to wait for these, but I do like my 
M1 Mini for all the core Apple stuff, except Messages,of course, and 
probably a few more as I continue to explore Big Sur.



On 12/20/2020 7:25 PM, Mike Arrigo wrote:

I decided to give Big Sur a try on one of my macs, and honestly, I'm thinking 
about going back to Catalina. Since I became a Mac user back in 2008, I think 
this is the first time that I've considered going back to a previous version of 
Mac OS, but for me at least, there are some major issues.
First, whenever I install a major upgrade of the operating system, I prefer to 
erase my drive and install from scratch. With the recovery for Big Sur 11.1 
this is impossible, Voiceover completely crashes when trying to access the 
table of disks in disk utility. So, I had to boot a Catalina recovery to erase 
my drive. Once that was done I booted from the Big Sur install drive I made and 
the install completed fine.
I think there is a major issue with adding or removing items from the dock. 
Previously you could move to an item and then press the up arrow which would 
give you the menu for that item. In Big Sur, this works the first time although 
when you select the option to remove from dock or keep in dock, that action 
does not take place. After that, bringing up the context menu for a dock item 
is impossible, pressing up arrow, using vo+shift+m or right clicking the mouse 
on the item just returns you to the desktop.
The next issue is with the new messages app, while it's useable, the experience 
is cumbersome at best. Voiceover tends to get stuck and you can't navigate left 
or right, you have to either use the tab key or use Voiceover's go to beginning 
or go to end commands to try to get out of the area that Voiceover is stuck in. 
Also, when writing a message, the read current line command does not work. This 
is the first time I've really been disappointed with an operating system 
upgrade, as I said, more than likely I will be going back to Catalina, I may 
play with it for another couple days but if I can't make these things work 
better than that's what I'm going to do.



--
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/09e1e5f7-33a4-08ef-8688-7b98e40fc45a%40noisynotes.com.

Re: Big Sur first impressions

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
I understand you totally.
Bit Sur is a bit of a disappointment in some cases.
I wont give it up yet but its totally different from Catalina and other Os for 
Mac to me.
/A

> 21 dec. 2020 kl. 01:25 skrev Mike Arrigo :
> 
> I decided to give Big Sur a try on one of my macs, and honestly, I'm thinking 
> about going back to Catalina. Since I became a Mac user back in 2008, I think 
> this is the first time that I've considered going back to a previous version 
> of Mac OS, but for me at least, there are some major issues.
> First, whenever I install a major upgrade of the operating system, I prefer 
> to erase my drive and install from scratch. With the recovery for Big Sur 
> 11.1 this is impossible, Voiceover completely crashes when trying to access 
> the table of disks in disk utility. So, I had to boot a Catalina recovery to 
> erase my drive. Once that was done I booted from the Big Sur install drive I 
> made and the install completed fine.
> I think there is a major issue with adding or removing items from the dock. 
> Previously you could move to an item and then press the up arrow which would 
> give you the menu for that item. In Big Sur, this works the first time 
> although when you select the option to remove from dock or keep in dock, that 
> action does not take place. After that, bringing up the context menu for a 
> dock item is impossible, pressing up arrow, using vo+shift+m or right 
> clicking the mouse on the item just returns you to the desktop.
> The next issue is with the new messages app, while it's useable, the 
> experience is cumbersome at best. Voiceover tends to get stuck and you can't 
> navigate left or right, you have to either use the tab key or use Voiceover's 
> go to beginning or go to end commands to try to get out of the area that 
> Voiceover is stuck in. Also, when writing a message, the read current line 
> command does not work. This is the first time I've really been disappointed 
> with an operating system upgrade, as I said, more than likely I will be going 
> back to Catalina, I may play with it for another couple days but if I can't 
> make these things work better than that's what I'm going to do.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/E2CBE7C4-8671-49DF-A573-90ECF00F4B5A%40charter.net.

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/753D640C-0DE7-47E5-8893-27B31EA3311B%40pipkrokodil.se.

Re: Big Sur first impressions

[Jürgen Fleger]

Yes, and there are some more issues:
Try to add a keyboard shortcut to a menu using Systempreferences > Keyboard 
>Shortcuts. On my MacBook Air 2020 with M1 chip Mac OS after a while forgets 
all added shortcuts.
CTRL doesn’t work relaiably anymore to stop VO from speaking. At least in all 
german voices that’s the case. This issue existed in a light version before but 
now it’s unlasting.

Really a disappointing OS to me as well this time. Hopefully Apple will 
discontiniuing this way.


> Am 21.12.2020 um 01:25 schrieb Mike Arrigo :
> 
> I decided to give Big Sur a try on one of my macs, and honestly, I'm thinking 
> about going back to Catalina. Since I became a Mac user back in 2008, I think 
> this is the first time that I've considered going back to a previous version 
> of Mac OS, but for me at least, there are some major issues.
> First, whenever I install a major upgrade of the operating system, I prefer 
> to erase my drive and install from scratch. With the recovery for Big Sur 
> 11.1 this is impossible, Voiceover completely crashes when trying to access 
> the table of disks in disk utility. So, I had to boot a Catalina recovery to 
> erase my drive. Once that was done I booted from the Big Sur install drive I 
> made and the install completed fine.
> I think there is a major issue with adding or removing items from the dock. 
> Previously you could move to an item and then press the up arrow which would 
> give you the menu for that item. In Big Sur, this works the first time 
> although when you select the option to remove from dock or keep in dock, that 
> action does not take place. After that, bringing up the context menu for a 
> dock item is impossible, pressing up arrow, using vo+shift+m or right 
> clicking the mouse on the item just returns you to the desktop.
> The next issue is with the new messages app, while it's useable, the 
> experience is cumbersome at best. Voiceover tends to get stuck and you can't 
> navigate left or right, you have to either use the tab key or use Voiceover's 
> go to beginning or go to end commands to try to get out of the area that 
> Voiceover is stuck in. Also, when writing a message, the read current line 
> command does not work. This is the first time I've really been disappointed 
> with an operating system upgrade, as I said, more than likely I will be going 
> back to Catalina, I may play with it for another couple days but if I can't 
> make these things work better than that's what I'm going to do.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/E2CBE7C4-8671-49DF-A573-90ECF00F4B5A%40charter.net.
> 

-- 
The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
--- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/614B0E03-7611-42F2-9B4F-E2D111998450%40fleger.net.