For sale: MacBook pro, m1 iPad pro, iPhone 12 pro max, and Airpods pro...

[Cameron Strife]

Hi. I have four Apple products for sale;details below. Mark gave me
premission to post this to the list... Prices include shipping with
tracking and insurance to the lower 48 states. I accept Apple Cash, pay
pal, and Venmo. All items are in excellent to mint condition, were
purchased new by me, and have not been out of my smoke free home except for
the iPhone of course. I also have most of the original product boxes.

To purchase, please write me off list at: came...@cameronstrife.com

Mint condition 2022 MacBook pro. Purchased new from Apple.

Specs:

M1 pro chip
10-Core CPU
16-Core GPU
16GB Unified Memory (ram)
1TB SSD Storage
16-core Neural Engine
14-inch Liquid Retina XDR display
Three Thunderbolt 4 ports, HDMI port, SDXC card slot, MagSafe 3 port
Magic Keyboard with Touch ID
Facetime hd camera, triple microphone system, six speaker sound system.
Force Touch trackpad
96W USB-C Power Adapter.

$1799

Apple iPhone 12 pro max, unlocked, 128gb storage, pretty much mint
condition and no battery issues etc. Includes a military grade all around
case with Gorilla glass screen protector and original Apple product box,
purchased new from Apple. Latest version of iOS installed;works great!
$599

Apple Airpods pro gen 1 with lightning charging case, original box,
and new silicon earbud tips. They work great and are pretty much mint.
$99

Apple iPad pro 11 inch with m1 processor, 128gb of storage, lidar scanner,
amazing battery life and performance with Voiceover, mint condition,
original owner, includes Apple product box, charger, and a very durable
case with built in screen protector and kick stand.
$599

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Re: Checking the battery level on my new MacBook

[Hai Nguyen Ly]

Thanks for that reminder. The correct command is actually VO+F7 twice. I 
totally forgot about this as I’ve been using the shell script method forever. 

Hai

> On Oct 1, 2024, at 12:34 PM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> 
> Yes, Speak Battery Status is now a VoiceOver command, so you don’t need to 
> use the shell script function.
> It can be reached as already mentioned with the VO-F8 three times, or you can 
> assign it to any of the commanders that are available.
>  
> 
>> On Oct 1, 2024, at 12:21 PM, Hai Nguyen Ly > <mailto:h.nguyen...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Brian,
>> You can create an Apple script using the following and bind it to a keyboard 
>> shortcut using the keyboard commander in VoiceOver utilities. 
>> I don’t remember if this list is set up to accept attachments, but I’ve 
>> included a copy of the script just in case. 
>> 
>> set cmd to "/usr/bin/pmset -g batt | grep -Eo '[0-9]{2,3}%'"
>> set batteryLevel to (do shell script cmd)
>> set cmd to "/usr/bin/pmset -g batt | grep -Eo 
>> '(charged)|(charging)|(discharging)'"
>> set batteryStatus to (do shell script cmd)
>> if batteryStatus = "charged" then
>>  set batteryStatus to "fully charged"
>> end if
>> set message to batteryLevel & ", " & batteryStatus
>> tell application "VoiceOver" to output message
>> 
>> Hai
>> 
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>> 
>> 
>>> On Oct 1, 2024, at 11:54 AM, Brian Hansen  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Is there a voice-Over command key combo I can use to find out the battery 
>>> status of my MacBook? I’m running the latest Mac operating system. Thanks 
>>> for anyand all help.
>>> Blessings,
>>> 
>>> Brian
>>> 
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>>> 
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>> 
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Re: Checking the battery level on my new MacBook

[Brian Hansen]

Thanks to everybody for chiming in on this. It’s just what I was looking for. Take care.Blessings,BrianOn Oct 1, 2024, at 12:07 PM, Hai Nguyen Ly  wrote:Thanks for that reminder. The correct command is actually VO+F7 twice. I totally forgot about this as I’ve been using the shell script method forever. HaiOn Oct 1, 2024, at 12:34 PM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:Yes, Speak Battery Status is now a VoiceOver command, so you don’t need to use the shell script function.It can be reached as already mentioned with the VO-F8 three times, or you can assign it to any of the commanders that are available. On Oct 1, 2024, at 12:21 PM, Hai Nguyen Ly <h.nguyen...@gmail.com> wrote:Brian,You can create an Apple script using the following and bind it to a keyboard shortcut using the keyboard commander in VoiceOver utilities. I don’t remember if this list is set up to accept attachments, but I’ve included a copy of the script just in case. set cmd to "/usr/bin/pmset -g batt | grep -Eo '[0-9]{2,3}%'"set batteryLevel to (do shell script cmd)set cmd to "/usr/bin/pmset -g batt | grep -Eo '(charged)|(charging)|(discharging)'"set batteryStatus to (do shell script cmd)if batteryStatus = "charged" then	set batteryStatus to "fully charged"end ifset message to batteryLevel & ", " & batteryStatustell application "VoiceOver" to output messageHai-- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at:http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/--- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/98C75EB0-A7DE-49A1-AB8D-8044930576AD%40gmail.com.On Oct 1, 2024, at 11:54 AM, Brian Hansen  wrote:Is there a voice-Over command key combo I can use to find out the battery status of my MacBook? I’m running the latest Mac operating system. Thanks for anyand all help.Blessings,Brian-- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list.If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.comThe archives for this list can be searched at:http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/--- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/0E88730A-E887-43AF-A5DD-616E6AA0B3D3%40gmail.com.-- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at:http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/--- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/98C75EB0-A7DE-49A1-AB8D-8044930576AD%40gmail.com.-- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com

Re: Checking the battery level on my new MacBook

[Jonathan Cohn]

Yes, Speak Battery Status is now a VoiceOver command, so you don’t need to use 
the shell script function.
It can be reached as already mentioned with the VO-F8 three times, or you can 
assign it to any of the commanders that are available.
 

> On Oct 1, 2024, at 12:21 PM, Hai Nguyen Ly  wrote:
> 
> Brian,
> You can create an Apple script using the following and bind it to a keyboard 
> shortcut using the keyboard commander in VoiceOver utilities. 
> I don’t remember if this list is set up to accept attachments, but I’ve 
> included a copy of the script just in case. 
> 
> set cmd to "/usr/bin/pmset -g batt | grep -Eo '[0-9]{2,3}%'"
> set batteryLevel to (do shell script cmd)
> set cmd to "/usr/bin/pmset -g batt | grep -Eo 
> '(charged)|(charging)|(discharging)'"
> set batteryStatus to (do shell script cmd)
> if batteryStatus = "charged" then
>   set batteryStatus to "fully charged"
> end if
> set message to batteryLevel & ", " & batteryStatus
> tell application "VoiceOver" to output message
> 
> Hai
> 
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> list.
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>  
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> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>  
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> 
> 
>> On Oct 1, 2024, at 11:54 AM, Brian Hansen  wrote:
>> 
>> Is there a voice-Over command key combo I can use to find out the battery 
>> status of my MacBook? I’m running the latest Mac operating system. Thanks 
>> for anyand all help.
>> Blessings,
>> 
>> Brian
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
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>> 
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>> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
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> 
> 
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> To v

Re: Checking the battery level on my new MacBook

[Hai Nguyen Ly]

Brian,You can create an Apple script using the following and bind it to a keyboard shortcut using the keyboard commander in VoiceOver utilities. I don’t remember if this list is set up to accept attachments, but I’ve included a copy of the script just in case. set cmd to "/usr/bin/pmset -g batt | grep -Eo '[0-9]{2,3}%'"
set batteryLevel to (do shell script cmd)
set cmd to "/usr/bin/pmset -g batt | grep -Eo '(charged)|(charging)|(discharging)'"
set batteryStatus to (do shell script cmd)
if batteryStatus = "charged" then
	set batteryStatus to "fully charged"
end if
set message to batteryLevel & ", " & batteryStatus
tell application "VoiceOver" to output messageHai



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Battery.scpt
Description: Binary data
On Oct 1, 2024, at 11:54 AM, Brian Hansen  wrote:Is there a voice-Over command key combo I can use to find out the battery status of my MacBook? I’m running the latest Mac operating system. Thanks for anyand all help.Blessings,Brian-- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list.If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.comThe archives for this list can be searched at:http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/--- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/0E88730A-E887-43AF-A5DD-616E6AA0B3D3%40gmail.com.



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RE: Checking the battery level on my new MacBook

['Eileen Scrivani ' via MacVisionaries]

Brian,

Try doing VO M twice to get to Menu extras. Then just VO right-arrow to battery 
status and VO should read it out loud. Press escape to close it out.

Eileen 
-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  On 
Behalf Of Brian Hansen
Sent: Tuesday, October 1, 2024 11:54 AM
To: Mac Visionaries 
Subject: Checking the battery level on my new MacBook

Is there a voice-Over command key combo I can use to find out the battery 
status of my MacBook? I’m running the latest Mac operating system. Thanks for 
anyand all help.
Blessings,

Brian

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Re: Checking the battery level on my new MacBook

[Trey Bradley]

Hello, you can press VO F7 three times also you can press VO M twice then
Vo right or left until you hear the battery percentage.

Remember to smile even when it's not popular.
Roosevelt Bradley 3



On Tue, Oct 1, 2024 at 10:54 AM Brian Hansen 
wrote:

> Is there a voice-Over command key combo I can use to find out the battery
> status of my MacBook? I’m running the latest Mac operating system. Thanks
> for anyand all help.
> Blessings,
>
> Brian
>
> --
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> Visionaries list.
>
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>
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark
> at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>
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> .
>

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Re: Checking the battery level on my new MacBook

[Kaare Dehard]

Hi, the way I do it is I press the BOM key twice This gets me into the status 
menu. I then use the left and right arrows to walk through the items, and one 
of them is battery level. It will give you the percentage and whether it’s 
charging or not. Hope this helps.
Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 1, 2024, at 10:54 AM, Brian Hansen  wrote:
> 
> Is there a voice-Over command key combo I can use to find out the battery 
> status of my MacBook? I’m running the latest Mac operating system. Thanks for 
> anyand all help.
> Blessings,
> 
> Brian
> 
> --
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Checking the battery level on my new MacBook

[Brian Hansen]

Is there a voice-Over command key combo I can use to find out the battery 
status of my MacBook? I’m running the latest Mac operating system. Thanks for 
anyand all help.
Blessings,

Brian

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Re: Using Google Google Drive and docs on MacBook Air with voiceover

[Herbie Allen]

I have always found it difficult to use. It’s an app you download, but it uses 
the web interface. I personally just create alias’s to the folders I need.

> On Sep 1, 2024, at 18:49, Pat Pound  wrote:
> 
> I’ve been using Google Drive somewhat on my phone although I find it quite 
> difficult. I have begun to explore using it on my Mac, but I don’t quite 
> understand if I need to download from the Google website, etc. Anyone have 
> advice about doing this effectively. I wouldn’t choose to use it myself, but 
> I’m in two different groups that store all their information there and it’s 
> the only way to interact. Thank you.
> 
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Using Google Google Drive and docs on MacBook Air with voiceover

[Pat Pound]

I’ve been using Google Drive somewhat on my phone although I find it quite 
difficult. I have begun to explore using it on my Mac, but I don’t quite 
understand if I need to download from the Google website, etc. Anyone have 
advice about doing this effectively. I wouldn’t choose to use it myself, but 
I’m in two different groups that store all their information there and it’s the 
only way to interact. Thank you.

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Re: Streaming from macbook air sonoma to Appole 4th generation

['Andrew' via MacVisionaries]

No, it can’t be because I bought this content from Apple.

Andrew

> On 22 Jul 2024, at 16:40, Jonathan C. Cohn  wrote:
> 
> 
> This sounds like copy protection for the videos. Commercial producers limit 
> how streaming can work across devices. Perhaps you can run it from your Apple 
> 4K directly. Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jul 22, 2024, at 10:15 AM, 'E.T.' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>    With my media downloaded to my Mac, I use the Computer app on the Apple 
>> TV 4K to play movies and TV series. Media and home sharing is enabled on the 
>> Mac. I can control all of it from the Apple TV 4k.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
>> My e-Mail:
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>>> On 7/22/2024 1:03 AM, 'Andrew' via MacVisionaries wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> I have movies and tv shows in the TV app on my macbook air running Sonoma 
>>> and wanted to stream some content to watch with friends last night, stream 
>>> to my Apple 4th generation.  I am ashamed to say that I had completely 
>>> failed to accomplish it.  How does one do this?  I went to menu extra and 
>>> chose mirroring but whilst I could hear voiceover through my television, my 
>>> friends couldn’t see the picture.  I could hear the dialogue of the film 
>>> but no picture appeared.  I’d appreciate some tips.
>>> Andrew
>> 
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Re: Streaming from macbook air sonoma to Appole 4th generation

[Jonathan C. Cohn]

This sounds like copy protection for the videos. Commercial producers limit how 
streaming can work across devices. Perhaps you can run it from your Apple 4K 
directly. Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 22, 2024, at 10:15 AM, 'E.T.' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
>    With my media downloaded to my Mac, I use the Computer app on the Apple 
> TV 4K to play movies and TV series. Media and home sharing is enabled on the 
> Mac. I can control all of it from the Apple TV 4k.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
> You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
> My e-Mail:
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
>> On 7/22/2024 1:03 AM, 'Andrew' via MacVisionaries wrote:
>> Hi,
>> I have movies and tv shows in the TV app on my macbook air running Sonoma 
>> and wanted to stream some content to watch with friends last night, stream 
>> to my Apple 4th generation.  I am ashamed to say that I had completely 
>> failed to accomplish it.  How does one do this?  I went to menu extra and 
>> chose mirroring but whilst I could hear voiceover through my television, my 
>> friends couldn’t see the picture.  I could hear the dialogue of the film but 
>> no picture appeared.  I’d appreciate some tips.
>> Andrew
> 
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Re: Streaming from macbook air sonoma to Appole 4th generation

['E.T.' via MacVisionaries]

   With my media downloaded to my Mac, I use the Computer app on the 
Apple TV 4K to play movies and TV series. Media and home sharing is 
enabled on the Mac. I can control all of it from the Apple TV 4k.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
My e-Mail:
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 7/22/2024 1:03 AM, 'Andrew' via MacVisionaries wrote:

Hi,

I have movies and tv shows in the TV app on my macbook air running Sonoma and 
wanted to stream some content to watch with friends last night, stream to my 
Apple 4th generation.  I am ashamed to say that I had completely failed to 
accomplish it.  How does one do this?  I went to menu extra and chose mirroring 
but whilst I could hear voiceover through my television, my friends couldn’t 
see the picture.  I could hear the dialogue of the film but no picture 
appeared.  I’d appreciate some tips.

Andrew



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Re: Streaming from macbook air sonoma to Appole 4th generation

['Andrew' via MacVisionaries]

I thought so too but took the screen curtain off and they still couldn’t see 
the picture.

Andrew

> On 22 Jul 2024, at 14:05, Herbie Allen  wrote:
> 
> If you have the screen curtain on the Mac, could that affect the mirroring?
> 
>> On Jul 22, 2024, at 03:03, 'Andrew' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I have movies and tv shows in the TV app on my macbook air running Sonoma 
>> and wanted to stream some content to watch with friends last night, stream 
>> to my Apple 4th generation.  I am ashamed to say that I had completely 
>> failed to accomplish it.  How does one do this?  I went to menu extra and 
>> chose mirroring but whilst I could hear voiceover through my television, my 
>> friends couldn’t see the picture.  I could hear the dialogue of the film but 
>> no picture appeared.  I’d appreciate some tips.
>> 
>> Andrew
>> 
>> -- 
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Re: Streaming from macbook air sonoma to Appole 4th generation

[Herbie Allen]

If you have the screen curtain on the Mac, could that affect the mirroring?

> On Jul 22, 2024, at 03:03, 'Andrew' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I have movies and tv shows in the TV app on my macbook air running Sonoma and 
> wanted to stream some content to watch with friends last night, stream to my 
> Apple 4th generation.  I am ashamed to say that I had completely failed to 
> accomplish it.  How does one do this?  I went to menu extra and chose 
> mirroring but whilst I could hear voiceover through my television, my friends 
> couldn’t see the picture.  I could hear the dialogue of the film but no 
> picture appeared.  I’d appreciate some tips.
> 
> Andrew
> 
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Streaming from macbook air sonoma to Appole 4th generation

['Andrew' via MacVisionaries]

Hi,

I have movies and tv shows in the TV app on my macbook air running Sonoma and 
wanted to stream some content to watch with friends last night, stream to my 
Apple 4th generation.  I am ashamed to say that I had completely failed to 
accomplish it.  How does one do this?  I went to menu extra and chose mirroring 
but whilst I could hear voiceover through my television, my friends couldn’t 
see the picture.  I could hear the dialogue of the film but no picture 
appeared.  I’d appreciate some tips.

Andrew

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Re: Reading a review on the new m3 MacBook Air

[Christina]

Oops. Apologies. I somehow  accidentally replied to the wrong email. I have no 
idea how focus switched to a different email. I’m blaming it on the cats. 😉 

Christina

> On Apr 8, 2024, at 3:59 PM, Christina  wrote:
> 
> The control Key has always been the command to pause and resume VO speech. I 
> actually never knew that the caps key paused speech. I just tested it on 
> Ventura and the caps lock key does indeed pause and resume speech. 
> Interesting.
> 
> Christina
> 
>> On Mar 15, 2024, at 2:21 AM, Terje Strømberg  wrote:
>> 
>> The youtuber channel Maxtech have a good review between the model with 16gb 
>> and 8gb. 16gb ram was faster than what they believed in advance.they said 
>> that the 8gb model used about 5gb only to run osx.
>> 
>> Take care
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> fre. 15. mars 2024 kl. 01:13 skrev Traci Duncan > <mailto:our4p...@gmail.com>>:
>>> Hey all, as the subject states. :) Here are a couple lines. Would this 
>>> configuration help the Voiceover issues?
>>> 
>>> The MacBook Air Apple sent me has an 8-core CPU and 10-core GPU with 16 GB 
>>> of memory, and 512 GB storage.
>>> 
>>> Performance felt super smooth for all my day-to-day tasks. At one point, I 
>>> had about 60 tabs open in Google Chrome across three different windows, as 
>>> well as various apps running in the background simultaneously—including 
>>> Slack, iMessage, Spotify, and Telegram—and never felt the machine slow 
>>> down. It felt only slightly warm to the touch, too.
>>> 
>>> What are your thoughts? If I upgraded this year, I’m coming from the last 
>>> Intel of 2021.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Traci
>>> 
>>> Here’s the webpage.
>>> 
>>> The New MacBook Air Pairs Peak Design With a Bump in Performance
>>> wired.com
>>>  <https://www.wired.com/review/apple-macbook-air-13-inch-2024/>The New 
>>> MacBook Air Pairs Peak Design With a Bump in Performance 
>>> <https://www.wired.com/review/apple-macbook-air-13-inch-2024/>
>>> wired.com <https://www.wired.com/review/apple-macbook-air-13-inch-2024/>
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
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Re: Reading a review on the new m3 MacBook Air

[Christina]

The control Key has always been the command to pause and resume VO speech. I 
actually never knew that the caps key paused speech. I just tested it on 
Ventura and the caps lock key does indeed pause and resume speech. Interesting.

Christina

> On Mar 15, 2024, at 2:21 AM, Terje Strømberg  wrote:
> 
> The youtuber channel Maxtech have a good review between the model with 16gb 
> and 8gb. 16gb ram was faster than what they believed in advance.they said 
> that the 8gb model used about 5gb only to run osx.
> 
> Take care
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fre. 15. mars 2024 kl. 01:13 skrev Traci Duncan  <mailto:our4p...@gmail.com>>:
>> Hey all, as the subject states. :) Here are a couple lines. Would this 
>> configuration help the Voiceover issues?
>> 
>> The MacBook Air Apple sent me has an 8-core CPU and 10-core GPU with 16 GB 
>> of memory, and 512 GB storage.
>> 
>> Performance felt super smooth for all my day-to-day tasks. At one point, I 
>> had about 60 tabs open in Google Chrome across three different windows, as 
>> well as various apps running in the background simultaneously—including 
>> Slack, iMessage, Spotify, and Telegram—and never felt the machine slow down. 
>> It felt only slightly warm to the touch, too.
>> 
>> What are your thoughts? If I upgraded this year, I’m coming from the last 
>> Intel of 2021.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Traci
>> 
>> Here’s the webpage.
>> 
>> The New MacBook Air Pairs Peak Design With a Bump in Performance
>> wired.com
>>  <https://www.wired.com/review/apple-macbook-air-13-inch-2024/>The New 
>> MacBook Air Pairs Peak Design With a Bump in Performance 
>> <https://www.wired.com/review/apple-macbook-air-13-inch-2024/>
>> wired.com <https://www.wired.com/review/apple-macbook-air-13-inch-2024/>
>> 
>> 
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Re: M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison

[Jonathan Cohn]

Here is a summary from the tidbits article that might help you decide.
Do note that the MB pro computers do have a brighter display, but if you aren’t 
really using the display I would go for the top of the line AIR over the bottom 
of the line Pro.

https://tidbits.com/2024/03/04/new-m3-macbook-air-models-can-drive-two-displays/
 
<https://tidbits.com/2024/03/04/new-m3-macbook-air-models-can-drive-two-displays/>

Purchasing Decisions

These new MacBook Air models are compelling for anyone buying their first 
MacBook Air, but do they provide sufficient improvements to prompt an upgrade? 
It all depends on where you’re coming from.

If budget is paramount, you can save a little money by purchasing the M2 
MacBook Air for as little as $999, though adding memory or storage pushes you 
into a range similar to the M3 models.
If you’ve held onto an Intel-based Mac this long and are considering a MacBook 
Air, upgrade immediately to an M3 MacBook Air. The performance jump from any 
Intel-based Mac will knock your socks off, and the M3 models will enjoy a 
longer lifespan than their M2 counterparts.
For those—like me—with an M1 MacBook Air, the main reason to upgrade is if you 
need more performance than the M1 chip can provide. The M3 benchmarks show it 
to be 25% to 35% faster 
<https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/apple-m3-vs-apple-m1> than the M1, and 
Apple cites more specific examples with larger gains 
<https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2024/03/apple-unveils-the-new-13-and-15-inch-macbook-air-with-the-powerful-m3-chip/>.
 But if performance is a concern, also consider a MacBook Pro with an M3 Pro or 
M3 Max processor.
If you have an M2 MacBook Air, the M3’s performance gains of 10% to 20% 
<https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/apple-m3-vs-apple-m2>probably aren’t 
significant enough to warrant upgrading.
Regardless of what you have now, if you want to drive two external displays 
from a laptop, the M3 MacBook Air models are a great buy. They’re much cheaper 
than the M3 Pro MacBook Pro models you’d otherwise need that start at $1999 for 
the 14-inch MacBook Pro and $2599 for the 16-inch model.
Best wishes,

Jonathan Cohn



> On Mar 15, 2024, at 8:50 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Dave,
> 
> I can only answer for myself, but here you go.  In 2017, I bought my one and 
> only MacBook Pro.  All my other Macs, including my current 2023 M1 have been 
> MacBook Airs.
> 
> Brad makes a strong case that for an extra $100, the MBP is the better 
> machine.  But I’ve always liked the smaller form factor and the lighter 
> weight of the MBA.  When I taught face-to-face, I had to carry my computer 
> with me around campus.  I also like to take it when I travel, so the smaller 
> and lighter, the better.  The MBA has always met my computing needs, but I’m 
> not an artist, graphic designer, etc.  I liked my MBP a lot, but I also 
> thought it was probably overkill for my use case.  So, in 2020, when the M1 
> chips came out, I went back to a MacBook Air.  That said, From the specs Brad 
>  sent last night, the difference in weight between the two seems pretty 
> negligible.  I was thinking I might upgrade to the M3 Air, but now I’m not 
> sure, either whether I will upgrade, or, if I do, which machine I’ll get.  My 
> current leaning is to just hold off and see what next year brings.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
>> On Mar 14, 2024, at 11:53 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:
>> 
>> Brad,
>> Thanks for this. Saw it after my question post Air vs. Pro. But still I 
>> wonder the use case. I used to think that the Air was designed to pull 
>> everything it needed to run (programs/apps) from the Internet, so not 
>> needing to store anything large on the machine except for data and 
>> personalizations. Is that no longer the push?
>> 
>> Dave Carlson
>> Oregonian, Woodworker, Farfar, Engineer, Musician
>> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 14, 2024, at 5:51 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
>> 
>> M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison... 
>> https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/03/13/m3-15-inch-macbook-air-vs-m3-14-inch-macbook-procomparison
>>  
>> <https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/03/13/m3-15-inch-macbook-air-vs-m3-14-inch-macbook-procomparison>
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> -- 
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Re: M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison

['Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries]

OMG, I *loved that 11-inch MBP.  It was less powerful, but so portable.
Cheers,
Donna

> On Mar 15, 2024, at 8:23 AM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> The original MacBook Air at 11.6”, and 13.3”, was thinner and lighter than 
> its MacBook Pro cousin.
> The original Air also had a less powerful processor..
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 15, 2024, at 08:07, Dave Carlson  wrote:
> 
> Brad,
> 
> Then why on earth did Apple decide that there was something distinctive about 
> an Air vs. Pro? Simply size and weight? Color choices? Is this a parallel to 
> the iPhone and - Pro vs. SE?
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Farfar, Oregonian, Engineer, Woodworker, Musician
> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 14, 2024, at 11:00 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> Never was.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 14, 2024, at 23:53, Dave Carlson  wrote:
> 
> Brad,
> Thanks for this. Saw it after my question post Air vs. Pro. But still I 
> wonder the use case. I used to think that the Air was designed to pull 
> everything it needed to run (programs/apps) from the Internet, so not needing 
> to store anything large on the machine except for data and personalizations. 
> Is that no longer the push?
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Oregonian, Woodworker, Farfar, Engineer, Musician
> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 14, 2024, at 5:51 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison... 
> https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/03/13/m3-15-inch-macbook-air-vs-m3-14-inch-macbook-procomparison
> 
> 
> - Brad -
> 
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Re: M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison

['Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries]

Hi Dave,

I’m not a hardware expert by a long shot, but the MBPs have generally been more 
powerful.  Also, and I don’t see well enough to confirm this personally, I 
think they have better displays.
Cheers,
Donna

> On Mar 15, 2024, at 8:07 AM, Dave Carlson  wrote:
> 
> Brad,
> 
> Then why on earth did Apple decide that there was something distinctive about 
> an Air vs. Pro? Simply size and weight? Color choices? Is this a parallel to 
> the iPhone and - Pro vs. SE?
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Farfar, Oregonian, Engineer, Woodworker, Musician
> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 14, 2024, at 11:00 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> Never was.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 14, 2024, at 23:53, Dave Carlson  wrote:
> 
> Brad,
> Thanks for this. Saw it after my question post Air vs. Pro. But still I 
> wonder the use case. I used to think that the Air was designed to pull 
> everything it needed to run (programs/apps) from the Internet, so not needing 
> to store anything large on the machine except for data and personalizations. 
> Is that no longer the push?
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Oregonian, Woodworker, Farfar, Engineer, Musician
> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 14, 2024, at 5:51 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison... 
> https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/03/13/m3-15-inch-macbook-air-vs-m3-14-inch-macbook-procomparison
> 
> 
> - Brad -
> 
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Re: M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison

[Brad Snyder]

The original MacBook Air at 11.6”, and 13.3”, was thinner and lighter than its 
MacBook Pro cousin.
The original Air also had a less powerful processor..

- Brad -



On Mar 15, 2024, at 08:07, Dave Carlson  wrote:

Brad,

Then why on earth did Apple decide that there was something distinctive about 
an Air vs. Pro? Simply size and weight? Color choices? Is this a parallel to 
the iPhone and - Pro vs. SE?

Dave Carlson
Farfar, Oregonian, Engineer, Woodworker, Musician
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com




On Mar 14, 2024, at 11:00 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:

Never was.

- Brad -



On Mar 14, 2024, at 23:53, Dave Carlson  wrote:

Brad,
Thanks for this. Saw it after my question post Air vs. Pro. But still I wonder 
the use case. I used to think that the Air was designed to pull everything it 
needed to run (programs/apps) from the Internet, so not needing to store 
anything large on the machine except for data and personalizations. Is that no 
longer the push?

Dave Carlson
Oregonian, Woodworker, Farfar, Engineer, Musician
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com




On Mar 14, 2024, at 5:51 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:

M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison... 
https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/03/13/m3-15-inch-macbook-air-vs-m3-14-inch-macbook-procomparison


- Brad -

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Re: M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison

['Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries]

Yeah, I thought about that.  And if I do get an Air, it will definitely be the 
13-inch.  But still, that pricing on the MBP is kinda tempting.  OK, in 
addition to my preference for things small and light, I’m also kind of a speed 
freak.  Those two factors sometimes make for an incongruous combination. :)
Cheers,
Donna

> On Mar 15, 2024, at 8:18 AM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> Keep in mind, that the Apple Insider article was comparing a 15” MacBook Air, 
> to the 14” M3 MacBook Pro.
> The 13” MacBook Air would be lighter and smaller, and can be configured the 
> same as the 15” used for comparison in the article.  :) 
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 15, 2024, at 07:50, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Dave,
> 
> I can only answer for myself, but here you go.  In 2017, I bought my one and 
> only MacBook Pro.  All my other Macs, including my current 2023 M1 have been 
> MacBook Airs.
> 
> Brad makes a strong case that for an extra $100, the MBP is the better 
> machine.  But I’ve always liked the smaller form factor and the lighter 
> weight of the MBA.  When I taught face-to-face, I had to carry my computer 
> with me around campus.  I also like to take it when I travel, so the smaller 
> and lighter, the better.  The MBA has always met my computing needs, but I’m 
> not an artist, graphic designer, etc.  I liked my MBP a lot, but I also 
> thought it was probably overkill for my use case.  So, in 2020, when the M1 
> chips came out, I went back to a MacBook Air.  That said, From the specs Brad 
>  sent last night, the difference in weight between the two seems pretty 
> negligible.  I was thinking I might upgrade to the M3 Air, but now I’m not 
> sure, either whether I will upgrade, or, if I do, which machine I’ll get.  My 
> current leaning is to just hold off and see what next year brings.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
>> On Mar 14, 2024, at 11:53 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:
>> 
>> Brad,
>> Thanks for this. Saw it after my question post Air vs. Pro. But still I 
>> wonder the use case. I used to think that the Air was designed to pull 
>> everything it needed to run (programs/apps) from the Internet, so not 
>> needing to store anything large on the machine except for data and 
>> personalizations. Is that no longer the push?
>> 
>> Dave Carlson
>> Oregonian, Woodworker, Farfar, Engineer, Musician
>> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 14, 2024, at 5:51 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
>> 
>> M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison... 
>> https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/03/13/m3-15-inch-macbook-air-vs-m3-14-inch-macbook-procomparison
>> 
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
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>>  
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Re: M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison

[Brad Snyder]

Keep in mind, that the Apple Insider article was comparing a 15” MacBook Air, 
to the 14” M3 MacBook Pro.
The 13” MacBook Air would be lighter and smaller, and can be configured the 
same as the 15” used for comparison in the article.  :) 

- Brad -



On Mar 15, 2024, at 07:50, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
 wrote:

Hi Dave,

I can only answer for myself, but here you go.  In 2017, I bought my one and 
only MacBook Pro.  All my other Macs, including my current 2023 M1 have been 
MacBook Airs.

Brad makes a strong case that for an extra $100, the MBP is the better machine. 
 But I’ve always liked the smaller form factor and the lighter weight of the 
MBA.  When I taught face-to-face, I had to carry my computer with me around 
campus.  I also like to take it when I travel, so the smaller and lighter, the 
better.  The MBA has always met my computing needs, but I’m not an artist, 
graphic designer, etc.  I liked my MBP a lot, but I also thought it was 
probably overkill for my use case.  So, in 2020, when the M1 chips came out, I 
went back to a MacBook Air.  That said, From the specs Brad  sent last night, 
the difference in weight between the two seems pretty negligible.  I was 
thinking I might upgrade to the M3 Air, but now I’m not sure, either whether I 
will upgrade, or, if I do, which machine I’ll get.  My current leaning is to 
just hold off and see what next year brings.
Cheers,
Donna

> On Mar 14, 2024, at 11:53 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:
> 
> Brad,
> Thanks for this. Saw it after my question post Air vs. Pro. But still I 
> wonder the use case. I used to think that the Air was designed to pull 
> everything it needed to run (programs/apps) from the Internet, so not needing 
> to store anything large on the machine except for data and personalizations. 
> Is that no longer the push?
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Oregonian, Woodworker, Farfar, Engineer, Musician
> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 14, 2024, at 5:51 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison... 
> https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/03/13/m3-15-inch-macbook-air-vs-m3-14-inch-macbook-procomparison
> 
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
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Re: M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison

[Dave Carlson]

Brad,

Then why on earth did Apple decide that there was something distinctive about 
an Air vs. Pro? Simply size and weight? Color choices? Is this a parallel to 
the iPhone and - Pro vs. SE?

Dave Carlson
Farfar, Oregonian, Engineer, Woodworker, Musician
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com




On Mar 14, 2024, at 11:00 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:

Never was.

- Brad -



On Mar 14, 2024, at 23:53, Dave Carlson  wrote:

Brad,
Thanks for this. Saw it after my question post Air vs. Pro. But still I wonder 
the use case. I used to think that the Air was designed to pull everything it 
needed to run (programs/apps) from the Internet, so not needing to store 
anything large on the machine except for data and personalizations. Is that no 
longer the push?

Dave Carlson
Oregonian, Woodworker, Farfar, Engineer, Musician
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com




On Mar 14, 2024, at 5:51 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:

M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison... 
https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/03/13/m3-15-inch-macbook-air-vs-m3-14-inch-macbook-procomparison


- Brad -

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Re: M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison

['Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries]

Hi Dave,

I can only answer for myself, but here you go.  In 2017, I bought my one and 
only MacBook Pro.  All my other Macs, including my current 2023 M1 have been 
MacBook Airs.

Brad makes a strong case that for an extra $100, the MBP is the better machine. 
 But I’ve always liked the smaller form factor and the lighter weight of the 
MBA.  When I taught face-to-face, I had to carry my computer with me around 
campus.  I also like to take it when I travel, so the smaller and lighter, the 
better.  The MBA has always met my computing needs, but I’m not an artist, 
graphic designer, etc.  I liked my MBP a lot, but I also thought it was 
probably overkill for my use case.  So, in 2020, when the M1 chips came out, I 
went back to a MacBook Air.  That said, From the specs Brad  sent last night, 
the difference in weight between the two seems pretty negligible.  I was 
thinking I might upgrade to the M3 Air, but now I’m not sure, either whether I 
will upgrade, or, if I do, which machine I’ll get.  My current leaning is to 
just hold off and see what next year brings.
Cheers,
Donna

> On Mar 14, 2024, at 11:53 PM, Dave Carlson  wrote:
> 
> Brad,
> Thanks for this. Saw it after my question post Air vs. Pro. But still I 
> wonder the use case. I used to think that the Air was designed to pull 
> everything it needed to run (programs/apps) from the Internet, so not needing 
> to store anything large on the machine except for data and personalizations. 
> Is that no longer the push?
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Oregonian, Woodworker, Farfar, Engineer, Musician
> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 14, 2024, at 5:51 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison... 
> https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/03/13/m3-15-inch-macbook-air-vs-m3-14-inch-macbook-procomparison
> 
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
>  
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>  
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: 
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>  
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
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Re: M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison

[Brad Snyder]

Never was.

- Brad -



On Mar 14, 2024, at 23:53, Dave Carlson  wrote:

Brad,
Thanks for this. Saw it after my question post Air vs. Pro. But still I wonder 
the use case. I used to think that the Air was designed to pull everything it 
needed to run (programs/apps) from the Internet, so not needing to store 
anything large on the machine except for data and personalizations. Is that no 
longer the push?

Dave Carlson
Oregonian, Woodworker, Farfar, Engineer, Musician
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com




On Mar 14, 2024, at 5:51 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:

M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison... 
https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/03/13/m3-15-inch-macbook-air-vs-m3-14-inch-macbook-procomparison


- Brad -

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Re: M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison

[Dave Carlson]

Brad,
Thanks for this. Saw it after my question post Air vs. Pro. But still I wonder 
the use case. I used to think that the Air was designed to pull everything it 
needed to run (programs/apps) from the Internet, so not needing to store 
anything large on the machine except for data and personalizations. Is that no 
longer the push?

Dave Carlson
Oregonian, Woodworker, Farfar, Engineer, Musician
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com




On Mar 14, 2024, at 5:51 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:

M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison... 
https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/03/13/m3-15-inch-macbook-air-vs-m3-14-inch-macbook-procomparison


- Brad -

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M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison

[Brad Snyder]

M3 15-inch MacBook Air vs M3 14-inch MacBook Pro -- Comparison...
https://appleinsider.com/articles/24/03/13/m3-15-inch-macbook-air-vs-m3-14-inch-macbook-procomparison


- Brad -

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Re: Reading a review on the new m3 MacBook Air

[Brad Snyder]

Not sure what VoiceOver issue you are referring to, but this configuration is what I would recommend for someone interested in getting a MacBook Air. However, for only an additional $100, you can get the same configuration in the entry-level MacBook Pro and have a lot better machine. Additionally, the MacBook Pro has a fan and an SD card reader. This may or may not be important to you, but these additional features are well worth the $100 difference in the two models of the MacBook.Which ever way you go, you will notice a significant improvement in overall performance over an Intel based Mac.- Brad -On Mar 14, 2024, at 19:13, Traci Duncan  wrote:Hey all, as the subject states. :) Here are a couple lines. Would this configuration help the Voiceover issues?The MacBook Air Apple sent me has an 8-core CPU and 10-core GPU with 16 GB of memory, and 512 GB storage.Performance felt super smooth for all my day-to-day tasks. At one point, I had about 60 tabs open in Google Chrome across three different windows, as well as various apps running in the background simultaneously—including Slack, iMessage, Spotify, and Telegram—and never felt the machine slow down. It felt only slightly warm to the touch, too.What are your thoughts? If I upgraded this year, I’m coming from the last Intel of 2021.Thanks,TraciHere’s the webpage.The New MacBook Air Pairs Peak Design With a Bump in Performancewired.com



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Need help finding affordable braille display for M1 MacBook. Also looking for Portuguese as second language braille resources

[Kevin Gibbs]

Guys,

Sorry for the OT post.I’m thinking of finding an affordable, possibly used, 
small braille display to help me learn Portuguese by having language lessons 
reenforced with braille along with speech.  It’s a long story.  I need hardware 
that would connect easily to my 2021 M1 MacBook.

I need two things.  I need an affordable braille display so I can read 
Portuguese in braille.  I also need a braille resource for learning the braille 
symbols for all the diacritical marks, (accents,) in Portuguese braille.  For 
example, I know that an e with an acute accent is represented in braille with a 
full six dot cell.  A C with a cedilla is 1, 2, 3, 4, 6.  But I would like a 
full braille table of all the conventional symbols for letters that commonly 
take accents and how these are represented in conventional foreign language 
text, particularly Portuguese.

Finally, I’d also like any suggestions for braille Portuguese as second 
language textbooks that I might be able to use, particularly if they are 
relatively short and wouldn’t take up a ton of space on my shelf.For that 
matter, if there are braille resources which are computer files that could be 
read using an affordable braille display, that would be even cooler.

Again, I realize this is pretty off the wall.  If anyone has any suggestions 
regarding where I might turn to look for any of these tools, please let me 
know.  Also, if anyone on this list knows of any resources inside Portugal 
where I might find some of these materials, please don’t hesitate to let me 
know.

Thanks,
Kevin  

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Re: Ailing 2013 MacBook Air

[Phil Halton]

Thanks for all the information folks, I took a shop vac to the MBA, trying not to suck the keys off the keyboard, and it actually seems to have helped. I thought it might’ve been dust and dirt buildup amongst other things and ,fingers crossed a good vacuuming seem to help a bit.Sent from my IPhoneOn Dec 29, 2023, at 7:39 PM, matthew dyer  wrote:Hi,I had an iMac from 2013 that could only run Catalina.  That thing ran pretty slow even after a fresh install and I just assumed it was old hardware.  The machine finally died after 10 years after a storm fried up the system.  I gave it to someone who need a system since hers was out.  In any event, I am suprizwed that the MBA from 2013 can even run mixer.  I have an Intel Mac mini from 2018 which is still kicking but will have to desire what to do with it at some point after it no goes out of software support.  I thought of turning it into a linux box, but not sure yet.MatthewOn Dec 29, 2023, at 5:59 PM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:Another possibility besides more resource intenvive software, is dust or link buildup in the venting areas. If you have a nearby Apple store, there is a good chance, that they will take the cover off the bak and blow out accumulated dirt in the system for free.If not, iFixIt should have the tools to open a Macbook, I believe they use a five pointed bolt head to prevent random folks from opening the case.On Fri, Dec 29, 2023 at 1:23 PM 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote:Phil:

I still use my 2013 era Mac Air. I am fully updated to Big Sur, the
lates it seems there will ever be for those older machines.

I can easily get my Air into a situations where the fans are running
almost constantly. My solution is to minimize how many applications I
keep open on the Air. There's an old saying about software expanding to
take advantage of newer, more powerful hardware. I've always thought
those fans are illustrating that old principle.

Best,
Janina

Phil Halton writes:
> I have an older MacBook Air from 2013 that is exhibiting a heck of a lot of fan activity these days. I upgraded to a MacBook Pro with the M3 Pro chip and I???m very happy with it but I???m trying to put some use to the old air. Last night I reinstalled the operating system after doing some first aid through disc utility And there???s still fan activity as far as I can tell. I reinstalled Catalina. I did not do a full erase and clean install, only a reinstall of the OS. I???m wondering, any ideas why all this fan activity is it aging Hardware? Or is it some kind of  Software problem, or even just data problems from years built up without ever erasing and reformatting. I???ll be glad to hear any ideas as to how I can bring this thing back to a reasonably good state of operation and if that means full of erasure and reinstall then I???d be willing to do that. Frankly I don???t see why this thing should be  choking on itself the way it is. Thanks for any advice. 
> Sent from my IPhone
> 
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-- 

Janina Sajka (she/her/hers)
Accessibility Consultant https://linkedin.com/in/jsajka

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Co-Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures     http://www.w3.org/wai/apa

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https://www.linuxfoundation.org/board-of-directors-2/

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Re: Ailing 2013 MacBook Air

[matthew dyer]

Hi,

I had an iMac from 2013 that could only run Catalina.  That thing ran pretty 
slow even after a fresh install and I just assumed it was old hardware.  The 
machine finally died after 10 years after a storm fried up the system.  I gave 
it to someone who need a system since hers was out.  In any event, I am 
suprizwed that the MBA from 2013 can even run mixer.  I have an Intel Mac mini 
from 2018 which is still kicking but will have to desire what to do with it at 
some point after it no goes out of software support.  I thought of turning it 
into a linux box, but not sure yet.

Matthew



> On Dec 29, 2023, at 5:59 PM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> 
> Another possibility besides more resource intenvive software, is dust or link 
> buildup in the venting areas. If you have a nearby Apple store, there is a 
> good chance, that they will take the cover off the bak and blow out 
> accumulated dirt in the system for free.
> If not, iFixIt should have the tools to open a Macbook, I believe they use a 
> five pointed bolt head to prevent random folks from opening the case.
> 
> 
> On Fri, Dec 29, 2023 at 1:23 PM 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
> wrote:
>> Phil:
>> 
>> I still use my 2013 era Mac Air. I am fully updated to Big Sur, the
>> lates it seems there will ever be for those older machines.
>> 
>> I can easily get my Air into a situations where the fans are running
>> almost constantly. My solution is to minimize how many applications I
>> keep open on the Air. There's an old saying about software expanding to
>> take advantage of newer, more powerful hardware. I've always thought
>> those fans are illustrating that old principle.
>> 
>> Best,
>> Janina
>> 
>> Phil Halton writes:
>> > I have an older MacBook Air from 2013 that is exhibiting a heck of a lot 
>> > of fan activity these days. I upgraded to a MacBook Pro with the M3 Pro 
>> > chip and I???m very happy with it but I???m trying to put some use to the 
>> > old air. Last night I reinstalled the operating system after doing some 
>> > first aid through disc utility And there???s still fan activity as far as 
>> > I can tell. I reinstalled Catalina. I did not do a full erase and clean 
>> > install, only a reinstall of the OS. I???m wondering, any ideas why all 
>> > this fan activity is it aging Hardware? Or is it some kind of  Software 
>> > problem, or even just data problems from years built up without ever 
>> > erasing and reformatting. I???ll be glad to hear any ideas as to how I can 
>> > bring this thing back to a reasonably good state of operation and if that 
>> > means full of erasure and reinstall then I???d be willing to do that. 
>> > Frankly I don???t see why this thing should be  choking on itself the way 
>> > it is. Thanks for any advice. 
>> > Sent from my IPhone
>> > 
>> > -- 
>> > The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> > Visionaries list.
>> > 
>> > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
>> > if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
>> > owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> > 
>> > Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark 
>> > at:  mk...@ucla.edu <mailto:mk...@ucla.edu> and your owner is Cara Quinn - 
>> > you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>> > <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
>> > 
>> > The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> > http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>> > --- 
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>> > "MacVisionaries" group.
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>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/86B6496A-6009-4E1C-BDFB-0ED547B5E20F%40gmail.com.
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> Janina Sajka (she/her/hers)
>> Accessibility Consultant https://linkedin.com/in/jsajka
>> 
>> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
>> Co-Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa
>> 
>> Linux Foundation Fellow
>> https://www.linuxfoundation.org/board-of-directors-2/
>&g

Re: Ailing 2013 MacBook Air

[Brad Snyder]

Before doing anything, I would wait and see if the fan activity ceases after a 
while.
Could be that the newly installed OS is busy indexing data, and once this 
process is completed, the fan activity will return to normal.

- Brad -



On Dec 29, 2023, at 16:59, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:

Another possibility besides more resource intenvive software, is dust or link 
buildup in the venting areas. If you have a nearby Apple store, there is a good 
chance, that they will take the cover off the bak and blow out accumulated dirt 
in the system for free.
If not, iFixIt should have the tools to open a Macbook, I believe they use a 
five pointed bolt head to prevent random folks from opening the case.


On Fri, Dec 29, 2023 at 1:23 PM 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
wrote:
> Phil:
> 
> I still use my 2013 era Mac Air. I am fully updated to Big Sur, the
> lates it seems there will ever be for those older machines.
> 
> I can easily get my Air into a situations where the fans are running
> almost constantly. My solution is to minimize how many applications I
> keep open on the Air. There's an old saying about software expanding to
> take advantage of newer, more powerful hardware. I've always thought
> those fans are illustrating that old principle.
> 
> Best,
> Janina
> 
> Phil Halton writes:
> > I have an older MacBook Air from 2013 that is exhibiting a heck of a lot of 
> > fan activity these days. I upgraded to a MacBook Pro with the M3 Pro chip 
> > and I???m very happy with it but I???m trying to put some use to the old 
> > air. Last night I reinstalled the operating system after doing some first 
> > aid through disc utility And there???s still fan activity as far as I can 
> > tell. I reinstalled Catalina. I did not do a full erase and clean install, 
> > only a reinstall of the OS. I???m wondering, any ideas why all this fan 
> > activity is it aging Hardware? Or is it some kind of  Software problem, or 
> > even just data problems from years built up without ever erasing and 
> > reformatting. I???ll be glad to hear any ideas as to how I can bring this 
> > thing back to a reasonably good state of operation and if that means full 
> > of erasure and reinstall then I???d be willing to do that. Frankly I 
> > don???t see why this thing should be  choking on itself the way it is. 
> > Thanks for any advice. 
> > Sent from my IPhone
> > 
> > -- 
> > The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
> > Visionaries list.
> > 
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> > you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
> > or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> > 
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> >  mk...@ucla.edu <mailto:mk...@ucla.edu> and your owner is Cara Quinn - you 
> > can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
> > 
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> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/86B6496A-6009-4E1C-BDFB-0ED547B5E20F%40gmail.com.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Janina Sajka (she/her/hers)
> Accessibility Consultant https://linkedin.com/in/jsajka
> 
> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> Co-Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa
> 
> Linux Foundation Fellow
> https://www.linuxfoundation.org/board-of-directors-2/
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
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> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu <mailto:mk...@ucla.edu> and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can 
> reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/m

Re: Ailing 2013 MacBook Air

[Jonathan Cohn]

Another possibility besides more resource intenvive software, is dust or
link buildup in the venting areas. If you have a nearby Apple store, there
is a good chance, that they will take the cover off the bak and blow out
accumulated dirt in the system for free.
If not, iFixIt should have the tools to open a Macbook, I believe they use
a five pointed bolt head to prevent random folks from opening the case.


On Fri, Dec 29, 2023 at 1:23 PM 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries <
macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Phil:
>
> I still use my 2013 era Mac Air. I am fully updated to Big Sur, the
> lates it seems there will ever be for those older machines.
>
> I can easily get my Air into a situations where the fans are running
> almost constantly. My solution is to minimize how many applications I
> keep open on the Air. There's an old saying about software expanding to
> take advantage of newer, more powerful hardware. I've always thought
> those fans are illustrating that old principle.
>
> Best,
> Janina
>
> Phil Halton writes:
> > I have an older MacBook Air from 2013 that is exhibiting a heck of a lot
> of fan activity these days. I upgraded to a MacBook Pro with the M3 Pro
> chip and I???m very happy with it but I???m trying to put some use to the
> old air. Last night I reinstalled the operating system after doing some
> first aid through disc utility And there???s still fan activity as far as I
> can tell. I reinstalled Catalina. I did not do a full erase and clean
> install, only a reinstall of the OS. I???m wondering, any ideas why all
> this fan activity is it aging Hardware? Or is it some kind of  Software
> problem, or even just data problems from years built up without ever
> erasing and reformatting. I???ll be glad to hear any ideas as to how I can
> bring this thing back to a reasonably good state of operation and if that
> means full of erasure and reinstall then I???d be willing to do that.
> Frankly I don???t see why this thing should be  choking on itself the way
> it is. Thanks for any advice.
> > Sent from my IPhone
> >
> > --
> > The following information is important for all members of the Mac
> Visionaries list.
> >
> > If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or
> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> >
> > Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark
> at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> >
> > The archives for this list can be searched at:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> > ---
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/86B6496A-6009-4E1C-BDFB-0ED547B5E20F%40gmail.com
> .
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka (she/her/hers)
> Accessibility Consultant https://linkedin.com/in/jsajka
>
> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> Co-Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa
>
> Linux Foundation Fellow
> https://www.linuxfoundation.org/board-of-directors-2/
>
> --
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac
> Visionaries list.
>
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or
> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark
> at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "MacVisionaries" group.
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> .
>

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Re: Ailing 2013 MacBook Air

['Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries]

Phil:

I still use my 2013 era Mac Air. I am fully updated to Big Sur, the
lates it seems there will ever be for those older machines.

I can easily get my Air into a situations where the fans are running
almost constantly. My solution is to minimize how many applications I
keep open on the Air. There's an old saying about software expanding to
take advantage of newer, more powerful hardware. I've always thought
those fans are illustrating that old principle.

Best,
Janina

Phil Halton writes:
> I have an older MacBook Air from 2013 that is exhibiting a heck of a lot of 
> fan activity these days. I upgraded to a MacBook Pro with the M3 Pro chip and 
> I???m very happy with it but I???m trying to put some use to the old air. 
> Last night I reinstalled the operating system after doing some first aid 
> through disc utility And there???s still fan activity as far as I can tell. I 
> reinstalled Catalina. I did not do a full erase and clean install, only a 
> reinstall of the OS. I???m wondering, any ideas why all this fan activity is 
> it aging Hardware? Or is it some kind of  Software problem, or even just data 
> problems from years built up without ever erasing and reformatting. I???ll be 
> glad to hear any ideas as to how I can bring this thing back to a reasonably 
> good state of operation and if that means full of erasure and reinstall then 
> I???d be willing to do that. Frankly I don???t see why this thing should be  
> choking on itself the way it is. Thanks for any advice. 
> Sent from my IPhone
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
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> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/86B6496A-6009-4E1C-BDFB-0ED547B5E20F%40gmail.com.

-- 

Janina Sajka (she/her/hers)
Accessibility Consultant https://linkedin.com/in/jsajka

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Co-Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa

Linux Foundation Fellow
https://www.linuxfoundation.org/board-of-directors-2/

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Ailing 2013 MacBook Air

[Phil Halton]

I have an older MacBook Air from 2013 that is exhibiting a heck of a lot of fan 
activity these days. I upgraded to a MacBook Pro with the M3 Pro chip and I’m 
very happy with it but I’m trying to put some use to the old air. Last night I 
reinstalled the operating system after doing some first aid through disc 
utility And there’s still fan activity as far as I can tell. I reinstalled 
Catalina. I did not do a full erase and clean install, only a reinstall of the 
OS. I’m wondering, any ideas why all this fan activity is it aging Hardware? Or 
is it some kind of  Software problem, or even just data problems from years 
built up without ever erasing and reformatting. I’ll be glad to hear any ideas 
as to how I can bring this thing back to a reasonably good state of operation 
and if that means full of erasure and reinstall then I’d be willing to do that. 
Frankly I don’t see why this thing should be  choking on itself the way it is. 
Thanks for any advice. 
Sent from my IPhone

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Re: Installing and using Lennox excessively on an old MacBook Air

[Phil Halton]

Totally agree TimI may just do a wipe and clean install of whatever OS it will take and just keep it around for laughs, maybe just hand it off to someone else who needs a computer. Man, I really like the new MacBook Pro with the M3 Pro chip. Really nice computer. Sent from my IPhoneOn Dec 28, 2023, at 11:08 AM, tim m  wrote:

  

  
  
I had no problem installing any flavor of linix on my macbook pro
  mid2009.
The only problem I had was keeping it on the system. Apple don't
  like it and would lose connections and sometimes totally drop boot
  startup.
The best thing to do with old mac's is trash can, unless you can
  rec lame some money for parts.


On 12/27/2023 6:25 PM, mr.robertcole
  via MacVisionaries wrote:


  Hi,
I installed Linux Mint Mate, on my 2009 MacBook.
The Linux Screenreader is called Orca.



  
On Dec 27, 2023, at 2:15 PM, Phil Halton  wrote:

I’ve been hearing about people using Linux on this list for quite some time and I never really cared until now. I’m wondering, how are people using Lennox from an accessibility standpoint, what screen reader is out there for use. I did my college independent studies using Lennox And so I’m not unfamiliar with it, but I never thought to use it on a Mac. I have an old MacBook Air, a 2013, that’s just collecting dust and I thought I might install Lennox and have a little play around with it. Can someone tell me  How I would go about installing it on my old MacBook Air and what screen reader can I use?
Thanks for any information. By the way, I don’t care what happens to this old MacBook Air, I’ll strip it down and do whatever with it, it’s lucky I didn’t put a bull spike through it😀
Sent from my IPhone

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Re: Installing and using Lennox excessively on an old MacBook Air

[tim m]

I had no problem installing any flavor of linix on my macbook pro mid2009.

The only problem I had was keeping it on the system. Apple don't like it 
and would lose connections and sometimes totally drop boot startup.


The best thing to do with old mac's is trash can, unless you can rec 
lame some money for parts.



On 12/27/2023 6:25 PM, mr.robertcole via MacVisionaries wrote:

Hi,
I installed Linux Mint Mate, on my 2009 MacBook.
The Linux Screenreader is called Orca.



On Dec 27, 2023, at 2:15 PM, Phil Halton  wrote:

I’ve been hearing about people using Linux on this list for quite some time and 
I never really cared until now. I’m wondering, how are people using Lennox from 
an accessibility standpoint, what screen reader is out there for use. I did my 
college independent studies using Lennox And so I’m not unfamiliar with it, but 
I never thought to use it on a Mac. I have an old MacBook Air, a 2013, that’s 
just collecting dust and I thought I might install Lennox and have a little 
play around with it. Can someone tell me  How I would go about installing it on 
my old MacBook Air and what screen reader can I use?
Thanks for any information. By the way, I don’t care what happens to this old 
MacBook Air, I’ll strip it down and do whatever with it, it’s lucky I didn’t 
put a bull spike through it😀
Sent from my IPhone

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Re: Installing and using Lennox excessively on an old MacBook Air

[mr.robertcole via MacVisionaries]

Hi,
I installed Linux Mint Mate, on my 2009 MacBook.
The Linux Screenreader is called Orca.


> On Dec 27, 2023, at 2:15 PM, Phil Halton  wrote:
> 
> I’ve been hearing about people using Linux on this list for quite some time 
> and I never really cared until now. I’m wondering, how are people using 
> Lennox from an accessibility standpoint, what screen reader is out there for 
> use. I did my college independent studies using Lennox And so I’m not 
> unfamiliar with it, but I never thought to use it on a Mac. I have an old 
> MacBook Air, a 2013, that’s just collecting dust and I thought I might 
> install Lennox and have a little play around with it. Can someone tell me  
> How I would go about installing it on my old MacBook Air and what screen 
> reader can I use?
> Thanks for any information. By the way, I don’t care what happens to this old 
> MacBook Air, I’ll strip it down and do whatever with it, it’s lucky I didn’t 
> put a bull spike through it😀
> Sent from my IPhone
> 
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Re: Installing and using Lennox excessively on an old MacBook Air

[matthew dyer]

Hi,

The only guy screenreader alibi for linux at this time is orca.  As for text 
base, speak should work.  Which bistro are you looking at?  Ubuntu or fedora 
might work.  HTH.

Matthew



> On Dec 27, 2023, at 2:15 PM, Phil Halton  wrote:
> 
> I’ve been hearing about people using Linux on this list for quite some time 
> and I never really cared until now. I’m wondering, how are people using 
> Lennox from an accessibility standpoint, what screen reader is out there for 
> use. I did my college independent studies using Lennox And so I’m not 
> unfamiliar with it, but I never thought to use it on a Mac. I have an old 
> MacBook Air, a 2013, that’s just collecting dust and I thought I might 
> install Lennox and have a little play around with it. Can someone tell me  
> How I would go about installing it on my old MacBook Air and what screen 
> reader can I use?
> Thanks for any information. By the way, I don’t care what happens to this old 
> MacBook Air, I’ll strip it down and do whatever with it, it’s lucky I didn’t 
> put a bull spike through it😀
> Sent from my IPhone
> 
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Installing and using Lennox excessively on an old MacBook Air

[Phil Halton]

I’ve been hearing about people using Linux on this list for quite some time and 
I never really cared until now. I’m wondering, how are people using Lennox from 
an accessibility standpoint, what screen reader is out there for use. I did my 
college independent studies using Lennox And so I’m not unfamiliar with it, but 
I never thought to use it on a Mac. I have an old MacBook Air, a 2013, that’s 
just collecting dust and I thought I might install Lennox and have a little 
play around with it. Can someone tell me  How I would go about installing it on 
my old MacBook Air and what screen reader can I use?
Thanks for any information. By the way, I don’t care what happens to this old 
MacBook Air, I’ll strip it down and do whatever with it, it’s lucky I didn’t 
put a bull spike through it😀
Sent from my IPhone

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Re: Query re setting up a new Macbook Air from scratch using Voiceover?

[Phil Halton]

That’s how I just did it with my new MacBook Pro, as Brad says, just open the 
lid and it will power up. Then voiceover will eventually start up on its own, 
if not press the function key plus the command key plus the FN five key and it 
will bring it up. Smooth sailing from there.
Sent from my IPhone


> On Dec 16, 2023, at 4:10 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> When you get your new Mac unpacked, just lift the lid to turn it on. Then, 
> let it sit and don't touch it. Voiceover should start on its own after a 
> short period of time. If it doesn't, press Fn + CMD + F5, and VoiceOver will 
> start.
> - Brad -
> 
> On Dec 16, 2023, at 14:19, 'Eleanor Roberts' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi all
> 
> Really hoping you guys can help me here with your collective 
> expertese/experience. I have a new 2022 Macbook Air arriving tomorrow, which 
> I’m very excited about, as I’ve been waiting and saving a long time for it. 
> However, as it’s being delivered to my home it means that I’ve got to try to 
> set it up myself from scratch using Voiceover.
> 
> I’ve never done this myself before, so I’m really hoping that someone can 
> reply to this message with some truly idiot-proof/step-by-step instructions 
> that I can follow to set it up without making any catastrophic 
> mistakes/crashing the machine before I’ve even got going!! I mean, for a 
> start, how on earth do you even get Voiceover to come on when you first turn 
> on the Mac so that you can set it all up?
> 
> As you can see, I really do have no idea what I’m doing with this one. So any 
> help/guidance anyone can give from the point of view of someone with no sight 
> doing this really would be very much appreciated and most gratefully received.
> 
> Thanks so much for any responses.
> 
> Eleanor
> 
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Re: Query re setting up a new Macbook Air from scratch using Voiceover?

[Brad Snyder]

When you get your new Mac unpacked, just lift the lid to turn it on. Then, let 
it sit and don't touch it. Voiceover should start on its own after a short 
period of time. If it doesn't, press Fn + CMD + F5, and VoiceOver will start.
- Brad -

On Dec 16, 2023, at 14:19, 'Eleanor Roberts' via MacVisionaries 
 wrote:

Hi all

Really hoping you guys can help me here with your collective 
expertese/experience. I have a new 2022 Macbook Air arriving tomorrow, which 
I’m very excited about, as I’ve been waiting and saving a long time for it. 
However, as it’s being delivered to my home it means that I’ve got to try to 
set it up myself from scratch using Voiceover.

I’ve never done this myself before, so I’m really hoping that someone can reply 
to this message with some truly idiot-proof/step-by-step instructions that I 
can follow to set it up without making any catastrophic mistakes/crashing the 
machine before I’ve even got going!! I mean, for a start, how on earth do you 
even get Voiceover to come on when you first turn on the Mac so that you can 
set it all up?

As you can see, I really do have no idea what I’m doing with this one. So any 
help/guidance anyone can give from the point of view of someone with no sight 
doing this really would be very much appreciated and most gratefully received.

Thanks so much for any responses.

Eleanor

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Re: Query re setting up a new Macbook Air from scratch using Voiceover?

[Les Kriegler]

Hi Eleanor,

Well, there are a lot of experts on this list, who will be able to provide you 
with lots of information. I will answer one question. To start voiceover when 
you turn on your Mac, hold down your command, key and type F5. The command key 
should be The first key to the left or right of your spacebar. That will at 
least get voiceover up and talking. Have fun with your new Mac. I’m sure you 
will enjoy it. It’s a very fast machine and works very well. 
Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 16, 2023, at 1:19 PM, 'Eleanor Roberts' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi all
> 
> Really hoping you guys can help me here with your collective 
> expertese/experience. I have a new 2022 Macbook Air arriving tomorrow, which 
> I’m very excited about, as I’ve been waiting and saving a long time for it. 
> However, as it’s being delivered to my home it means that I’ve got to try to 
> set it up myself from scratch using Voiceover.
> 
> I’ve never done this myself before, so I’m really hoping that someone can 
> reply to this message with some truly idiot-proof/step-by-step instructions 
> that I can follow to set it up without making any catastrophic 
> mistakes/crashing the machine before I’ve even got going!! I mean, for a 
> start, how on earth do you even get Voiceover to come on when you first turn 
> on the Mac so that you can set it all up?
> 
> As you can see, I really do have no idea what I’m doing with this one. So any 
> help/guidance anyone can give from the point of view of someone with no sight 
> doing this really would be very much appreciated and most gratefully received.
> 
> Thanks so much for any responses.
> 
> Eleanor
> 
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Query re setting up a new Macbook Air from scratch using Voiceover?

['Eleanor Roberts' via MacVisionaries]

Hi all 

Really hoping you guys can help me here with your collective 
expertese/experience. I have a new 2022 Macbook Air arriving tomorrow, which 
I’m very excited about, as I’ve been waiting and saving a long time for it. 
However, as it’s being delivered to my home it means that I’ve got to try to 
set it up myself from scratch using Voiceover. 

I’ve never done this myself before, so I’m really hoping that someone can reply 
to this message with some truly idiot-proof/step-by-step instructions that I 
can follow to set it up without making any catastrophic mistakes/crashing the 
machine before I’ve even got going!! I mean, for a start, how on earth do you 
even get Voiceover to come on when you first turn on the Mac so that you can 
set it all up? 

As you can see, I really do have no idea what I’m doing with this one. So any 
help/guidance anyone can give from the point of view of someone with no sight 
doing this really would be very much appreciated and most gratefully received. 

Thanks so much for any responses. 

Eleanor 

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Re: New Sonoma user has questions I’ve been using Catalina on a MacBook Air and my iOS device with iOS 17 for the longest time. Now I have a new MacBook Pro with Sonoma and I love the thing except for

[Suzanne Erb]

Hello,
The only way I have been able to get rid of things like disk not ejecting 
properly is holding down the Fn, VO, and hitting the o key. Then I get a menu 
with choices, including the close button.
That generally seems to work.
Happy notice squelching,
Suzanne

> On Dec 5, 2023, at 00:20, Dave Carlson  wrote:
> 
> Yes, but it seems that you cannot disable the most annoying system generated 
> notifications like a disk that was not ejected properly.
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Woodworker, Musician, Oregonian, Engineer,  Farfar
> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> On Dec 4, 2023, at 5:58 PM, Herbie Allen  wrote:
> 
> You can go to the notification center to disable the one s you don’t want. 
> You can also access the center with Function N and VO Command Space to bring 
> up the Actions roter. You can dismiss them from there.
> 
>> On Dec 4, 2023, at 14:57, Phil Halton  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my IPhone
>> 
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Re: New Sonoma user has questions I’ve been using Catalina on a MacBook Air and my iOS device with iOS 17 for the longest time. Now I have a new MacBook Pro with Sonoma and I love the thing except for

[Herbie Allen]

You can go to the notification center to disable the one s you don’t want. You 
can also access the center with Function N and VO Command Space to bring up the 
Actions roter. You can dismiss them from there.

> On Dec 4, 2023, at 14:57, Phil Halton  wrote:
> 
> 
> Sent from my IPhone
> 
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New Sonoma user has questions I’ve been using Catalina on a MacBook Air and my iOS device with iOS 17 for the longest time. Now I have a new MacBook Pro with Sonoma and I love the thing except for the

[Phil Halton]

Sent from my IPhone

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Re: A question about accessibility of Microsoft teams on an M2 MacBook Pro, 2022

[Jonathan Cohn]

There are two versions of Teams, so it gets a little confusing. 
The business version integrates into One Drive and has good accessibility 
features including AI based auto transcriptions.
Teams on Windows is making a transition from an Electron App to a WebView2 app. 
I have no idea how this matches up with the Mac version.

Some basic keystrokes (assuming that command replaces control on the Macintosh 
versions.)
1. command-shift-J join meeting that you received an announcement about.
2. command-shift-M mute/unmute 
3. command+shift+O toggle video 
command+shift+K raise hand 
command+shift+L list people with raised hands 
command+shift+f  move to list of conversations or teams or feed events.
command+/ Enter search field 
command+? list all short cut keys 
command+shift+h hangup 
HTH 

Best wishes,

Jonathan Cohn



> On Oct 23, 2023, at 9:30 AM, Maurice A. Mines  wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone, a meeting that I’ve been attending for a very long time. The 
> host has decided that she wants to go in a different direction. She wants to 
> use Microsoft teams is this even usable with voiceover? I am wanting to make 
> certain that it is and if it’s not, how do I address it? Definitely looking 
> for some suggestions and potential answers. I’m doing this for before I have 
> the problem. I have the balance of the week this out.? Please feel free if 
> this is not white chain to the left to write me at the email address that is 
> listed in my signature.  Thanks for reading this, and have an excellent day. 
> Please note that this is being dictated to the phone so somethings might not 
> come out the way they should. 
> Sent from my iPhone. 
> Email, Nfb, presidentdeafbl...@maurice-amines.com email personal 
> min...@me.com. Voice,  text number 661-868-9647.
> Fax number  661-449-3746.
> 
> 
> President, National Federation of the blind DeafBlind division. IP relay 
> number 661-249-9715.
> Vice President national Federation of the blind of California Bakersfield 
> chapter.
> amateur radio, call sign, kd0iko.
> 
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Re: A question about accessibility of Microsoft teams on an M2 MacBook Pro, 2022

['jason' via MacVisionaries]

Try these resources:https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/keyboard-shortcuts-for-microsoft-teams-2e8e2a70-e8d8-4a19-949b-4c36dd5292d2https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/basic-tasks-using-a-screen-reader-with-microsoft-teams-538a8741-f21b-4b04-b575-9df70ed4105dNote that version 2 of Microsoft Teams was just released. I have it installed, but I haven’t used it yet, as I’m not currently collaborating with people who use Microsoft Teams. From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  on behalf of Julie Rattray Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2023 at 05:27To: 'Sabahattin Gucukoglu' via MacVisionaries Subject: Re: A question about accessibility of Microsoft teams on an M2 MacBook Pro, 2022Hi, It is accessible but I find it fairly clunky if I am honest I find using Teams on the iPad more intuitive but the MacBook versions will work but you need to spend some time playing with the screens etc and practice navigating. I think a while ago someone posted a link to a help doc from Microsoft but not sure where that is now   On 23 Oct 2023, at 14:30, Maurice A. Mines  wrote: Hello everyone, a meeting that I’ve been attending for a very long time. The host has decided that she wants to go in a different direction. She wants to use Microsoft teams is this even usable with voiceover? I am wanting to make certain that it is and if it’s not, how do I address it? Definitely looking for some suggestions and potential answers. I’m doing this for before I have the problem. I have the balance of the week this out.? Please feel free if this is not white chain to the left to write me at the email address that is listed in my signature.  Thanks for reading this, and have an excellent day. Please note that this is being dictated to the phone so somethings might not come out the way they should. Sent from my iPhone. Email, Nfb, presidentdeafbl...@maurice-amines.com email personal min...@me.com. Voice,  text number 661-868-9647.Fax number  661-449-3746.President, National Federation of the blind DeafBlind division. IP relay number 661-249-9715.Vice President national Federation of the blind of California Bakersfield chapter.amateur radio, call sign, kd0iko. -- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at:http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/--- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/006405D2-75F1-4B9C-8BC6-4BEF46E7B63A%40gmail.com. -- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at:http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/--- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" groupTo unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/BB28EDED-1B32-468F-A729-1C778D21F798%40gmail.com.



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Re: A question about accessibility of Microsoft teams on an M2 MacBook Pro, 2022

[Julie Rattray]

Hi,

It is accessible but I find it fairly clunky if I am honest I find using Teams 
on the iPad more intuitive but the MacBook versions will work but you need to 
spend some time playing with the screens etc and practice navigating. I think a 
while ago someone posted a link to a help doc from Microsoft but not sure where 
that is now   

> On 23 Oct 2023, at 14:30, Maurice A. Mines  wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone, a meeting that I’ve been attending for a very long time. The 
> host has decided that she wants to go in a different direction. She wants to 
> use Microsoft teams is this even usable with voiceover? I am wanting to make 
> certain that it is and if it’s not, how do I address it? Definitely looking 
> for some suggestions and potential answers. I’m doing this for before I have 
> the problem. I have the balance of the week this out.? Please feel free if 
> this is not white chain to the left to write me at the email address that is 
> listed in my signature.  Thanks for reading this, and have an excellent day. 
> Please note that this is being dictated to the phone so somethings might not 
> come out the way they should. 
> Sent from my iPhone. 
> Email, Nfb, presidentdeafbl...@maurice-amines.com email personal 
> min...@me.com. Voice,  text number 661-868-9647.
> Fax number  661-449-3746.
> 
> 
> President, National Federation of the blind DeafBlind division. IP relay 
> number 661-249-9715.
> Vice President national Federation of the blind of California Bakersfield 
> chapter.
> amateur radio, call sign, kd0iko.
> 
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A question about accessibility of Microsoft teams on an M2 MacBook Pro, 2022

[Maurice A. Mines]

Hello everyone, a meeting that I’ve been attending for a very long time. The 
host has decided that she wants to go in a different direction. She wants to 
use Microsoft teams is this even usable with voiceover? I am wanting to make 
certain that it is and if it’s not, how do I address it? Definitely looking for 
some suggestions and potential answers. I’m doing this for before I have the 
problem. I have the balance of the week this out.? Please feel free if this is 
not white chain to the left to write me at the email address that is listed in 
my signature.  Thanks for reading this, and have an excellent day. Please note 
that this is being dictated to the phone so somethings might not come out the 
way they should. 
Sent from my iPhone. 
Email, Nfb, presidentdeafbl...@maurice-amines.com email personal min...@me.com. 
Voice,  text number 661-868-9647.
Fax number  661-449-3746.


President, National Federation of the blind DeafBlind division. IP relay number 
661-249-9715.
Vice President national Federation of the blind of California Bakersfield 
chapter.
amateur radio, call sign, kd0iko.

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Re: removing a shortcut from the macbook air shortcuts app | A Newbie

[CoolHappenings]

Hello all MacVisionaries, i am arvind from Kuala Lumpur and i need some help 
with the shortcuts app on my macbook air running on MacOS Sonoma.

I recently downloaded and added 2 document converter shortcuts to the shortcut 
app and i now see that there are 2 shortcuts in the all shortcuts list. I soon 
realized that one of them do not work as it should and for some reason, can’t 
figure out how to remove that one shortcut from the app.
I’d be greatful if anyone here would be willing to assist me figure out a way 
of removing this unusable shortcut please.
Thank you so much and Take care 
Arvind

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Re: Not upgrading Macbook Air

['Devin Prater' via MacVisionaries]

Thanks for letting us know. I'm glad to know Apple knows about it.
Devin Prater

> On Sep 18, 2023, at 9:42 AM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
> 
> Well, color me pleasantly surprised. I contacted Apple Accessibility about 
> upgrading my Mac and the not responding messages I am receiving. They don’t 
> recommend I upgrade my Mac for this issue. They say it is a software issue 
> and will hopefully be addressed.
> 
> I’m pleased and surprised at this response. I would be super disappointed to 
> spend this amount of money on a new machine that I don’t really need. I just 
> want the messages to stop. :-)
> 
> Onto researching ad blockers and the like. I believe someone on this list 
> said that that might help in safari.
> 
> Thank you for all your advice and suggestions. I appreciate it.
> Traci
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
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Not upgrading Macbook Air

[Traci Duncan]

Well, color me pleasantly surprised. I contacted Apple Accessibility about 
upgrading my Mac and the not responding messages I am receiving. They don’t 
recommend I upgrade my Mac for this issue. They say it is a software issue and 
will hopefully be addressed.

I’m pleased and surprised at this response. I would be super disappointed to 
spend this amount of money on a new machine that I don’t really need. I just 
want the messages to stop. :-)

Onto researching ad blockers and the like. I believe someone on this list said 
that that might help in safari.

Thank you for all your advice and suggestions. I appreciate it.
Traci

Sent from my iPhone

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Re: Recommendations new MacBook Air m2

[Brandon Olivares]

You probably only need 8 GB of RAM. If you have a lot of files I think it’s 
better to go with 512 GB of space at least — I tried 256 GB once and I ran out 
so quickly and kept having to delete stuff. I prefer SSD over hard drives.

Nothing else should matter all that much.

> On Aug 27, 2023, at 5:02 PM, Traci Duncan  wrote:
> 
> Hi all, I’m considering getting a new Mac in the back to school sale. Could 
> you please advise me on specs?
> 
> I am probably a light user. It is the VoiceOver not responding message that 
> is driving me crazy! Lol! Even simple Safari searches get the not responding. 
> I get it in music as well.
> 
> So, some Mac uses I do: surfing (ie searches), music app, rs games app, mail, 
> pdfs. That sort of thing.
> 
> Thank you for your feedback. I don’t want to buy something less than my 
> needs, neither do I want to buy something far more robust than I need. 
> Looking for Goldilox here. *Grins
> 
> Traci 
> 
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Recommendations new MacBook Air m2

[Traci Duncan]

Hi all, I’m considering getting a new Mac in the back to school sale. Could you 
please advise me on specs?

I am probably a light user. It is the VoiceOver not responding message that is 
driving me crazy! Lol! Even simple Safari searches get the not responding. I 
get it in music as well.

So, some Mac uses I do: surfing (ie searches), music app, rs games app, mail, 
pdfs. That sort of thing.

Thank you for your feedback. I don’t want to buy something less than my needs, 
neither do I want to buy something far more robust than I need. Looking for 
Goldilox here. *Grins

Traci 

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Re: Restoring MacBook Air To Factory Settings And VoiceOver

[Steve Matzura]

Yes it does. I just did this with my 2020 M1 Mini, and it works 
wonderfully well.



On 8/8/2023 1:51 PM, pdevasto0...@gmail.com wrote:


Hi all,

I’ve not been using my early 2015 11-inch MacBook air very much 
lately, so I’ve decided to try and find a new home for it. Before I do 
that, I need to restore it to factory settings. 
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208496> It’s running Mac OS 
Monterey Version 12.6.8. If I follow the steps in the linked Apple 
Support article and I use Disk Utility to erase the disk and then 
reinstall the OS, does Voiceover stay with me all the way through? If 
not, is there anything I should do during the process to finish up?


Thanks so much for any help,

Pete De Vasto



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Restoring MacBook Air To Factory Settings And VoiceOver

[pdevasto0219]

Hi all,

I've not been using my early 2015 11-inch MacBook air very much lately, so
I've decided to try and find a new home for it. Before I do that, I need to
restore it to factory settings. <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208496>
It's running Mac OS Monterey Version 12.6.8. If I follow the steps in the
linked Apple Support article and I use Disk Utility to erase the disk and
then reinstall the OS, does Voiceover stay with me all the way through? If
not, is there anything I should do during the process to finish up?

 

Thanks so much for any help,

Pete De Vasto

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RE: Transplanting Macbook Pro to Austrailia

[meikle.aiden via MacVisionaries]

Thanks for that Jason.  I’d have never known.

 

Andy.

 

From: 'Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries  
Sent: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 11:38 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Transplanting Macbook Pro to Austrailia

 

You need to perform a reset of the device after signing out of iCloud.

 

From: meikle.aiden via MacVisionaries mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >
Date: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 04:01
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>  
mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >
Subject: Transplanting Macbook Pro to Austrailia

Hi all.

 

Perhaps a silly question, but am I able to give my Mackbook Pro to my Nephew, 
who lives in Sidney , My 2020 Mackbook to keep?

 

I bought this computer new for £3000 in 2020  in Scotland and could not learn 
the operating system.  It’s perfect and hardly even been turned on.

 

I could give him my email address and my Apple password, which he can change, 
but is there anything more he would need to use this computer, apart from a 
power adaptor?

 

Thanks.

 

Andy Logue

 

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Re: Transplanting Macbook Pro to Austrailia

['Jason J.G. White' via MacVisionaries]

You need to perform a reset of the device after signing out of iCloud.

From: meikle.aiden via MacVisionaries 
Date: Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 04:01
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
Subject: Transplanting Macbook Pro to Austrailia
Hi all.

Perhaps a silly question, but am I able to give my Mackbook Pro to my Nephew, 
who lives in Sidney , My 2020 Mackbook to keep?

I bought this computer new for £3000 in 2020  in Scotland and could not learn 
the operating system.  It’s perfect and hardly even been turned on.

I could give him my email address and my Apple password, which he can change, 
but is there anything more he would need to use this computer, apart from a 
power adaptor?

Thanks.

Andy Logue

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Transplanting Macbook Pro to Austrailia

[meikle.aiden via MacVisionaries]

Hi all.

 

Perhaps a silly question, but am I able to give my Mackbook Pro to my
Nephew, who lives in Sidney , My 2020 Mackbook to keep?

 

I bought this computer new for £3000 in 2020  in Scotland and could not
learn the operating system.  It’s perfect and hardly even been turned on.

 

I could give him my email address and my Apple password, which he can
change, but is there anything more he would need to use this computer, apart
from a power adaptor?

 

Thanks.

 

Andy Logue

 

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Re: [bits] Macbook startup errors

[Herbie Allen]

Perfect, I will pass this along.

> On May 9, 2023, at 18:03,  
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
>  
> If he goes into the system recovery there is an opsion to do a disk repair  
> which will repair permissions.  Perhaps this might fix it.  Otherwize if they 
> take it to the apple store, they may be able to run a diagnostic check on the 
> hardware.  
> Giving that the machine is quuite old, I would say it might be time to put it 
> to rest.  HTH.
>  
> Matthew
>  
>  
>  
> Matthew Dyer
> Sent from outlook365
> Follow me on mastodon at mdyer1@tweesecake.social 
> <mailto:mdyer1@tweesecake.social>
>  
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  On 
> Behalf Of Herbie Allen
> Sent: Monday, May 8, 2023 11:30 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Fwd: [bits] Macbook startup errors
>  
> I got his permission to pass tthis along in case anyone has ideas. I’m 
> thinking system recovery is his best bet.
>  
> 
> 
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>  
>> From: "DEXTER PENWELL" mailto:dexterpenw...@msn.com>>
>> Subject: [bits] Macbook startup errors
>> Date: May 5, 2023 at 06:35:09 CDT
>> To: m...@bits.groups.io <mailto:m...@bits.groups.io>
>> Reply-To: m...@bits.groups.io <mailto:m...@bits.groups.io>
>>  
>> Hello,
>> This is a request for Mac users.
>>  
>> My Macbook, which is a 2015 macbook pro 15 inch has suddenly started acting 
>> very strange when I start it up.  And, I need to find out how to try and do 
>> a repair of my operating system.
>>  
>> When I start my computer it starts saying “voiceover off, voiceover off, 
>> voiceover off” over and over.
>> It does not allow me to finish starting up by logging into my computer.
>>  
>> However, if I do a command F5 to turn voiceover off, then I can log in and 
>> it appears to operate properly until I shut it down and try to start up 
>> again.
>>  
>> It actually started that about 2 months ago, but I have avoided really 
>> operating it much since then and I know that now it is asking me if I want 
>> to update my macbook when I go into “about this Mac”.
>>  
>> I tried to find where I can have it do a system analysis, but I have not 
>> found that.  I am sure it will tell me something is wrong if I can have it 
>> check my system files.
>>  
>> I should also state that I had not added any new softwar for at least 2 or 3 
>> months before this started happening.
>>  
>> Any ideas and any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>>  
>> Thank you,
>> Dexter Penwell
>> _._,_._,_
>> Groups.io Links:
>> You receive all messages sent to this group.
>> View/Reply Online (#12228) <https://bits.groups.io/g/main/message/12228> | 
>> Reply To Group 
>> <mailto:m...@bits.groups.io?subject=Re:%20%5Bbits%5D%20Macbook%20startup%20errors>
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RE: [bits] Macbook startup errors

[ilovecountrymusic483]

Hi,

 

If he goes into the system recovery there is an opsion to do a disk repair  
which will repair permissions.  Perhaps this might fix it.  Otherwize if they 
take it to the apple store, they may be able to run a diagnostic check on the 
hardware.  
Giving that the machine is quuite old, I would say it might be time to put it 
to rest.  HTH.

 

Matthew

 

 

 

Matthew Dyer

Sent from outlook365

Follow me on mastodon at  <mailto:mdyer1@tweesecake.social> 
mdyer1@tweesecake.social

 

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com  On 
Behalf Of Herbie Allen
Sent: Monday, May 8, 2023 11:30 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Fwd: [bits] Macbook startup errors

 

I got his permission to pass tthis along in case anyone has ideas. I’m thinking 
system recovery is his best bet.

 





Begin forwarded message:

 

From: "DEXTER PENWELL" mailto:dexterpenw...@msn.com> >

Subject: [bits] Macbook startup errors

Date: May 5, 2023 at 06:35:09 CDT

To: m...@bits.groups.io <mailto:m...@bits.groups.io> 

Reply-To: m...@bits.groups.io <mailto:m...@bits.groups.io> 

 

Hello,

This is a request for Mac users.

 

My Macbook, which is a 2015 macbook pro 15 inch has suddenly started acting 
very strange when I start it up.  And, I need to find out how to try and do a 
repair of my operating system.

 

When I start my computer it starts saying “voiceover off, voiceover off, 
voiceover off” over and over.

It does not allow me to finish starting up by logging into my computer.

 

However, if I do a command F5 to turn voiceover off, then I can log in and it 
appears to operate properly until I shut it down and try to start up again.

 

It actually started that about 2 months ago, but I have avoided really 
operating it much since then and I know that now it is asking me if I want to 
update my macbook when I go into “about this Mac”.

 

I tried to find where I can have it do a system analysis, but I have not found 
that.  I am sure it will tell me something is wrong if I can have it check my 
system files.

 

I should also state that I had not added any new softwar for at least 2 or 3 
months before this started happening.

 

Any ideas and any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

 

Thank you,

Dexter Penwell

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Fwd: [bits] Macbook startup errors

[Herbie Allen]

I got his permission to pass tthis along in case anyone has ideas. I’m thinking 
system recovery is his best bet.


> Begin forwarded message:
> 
> From: "DEXTER PENWELL" 
> Subject: [bits] Macbook startup errors
> Date: May 5, 2023 at 06:35:09 CDT
> To: m...@bits.groups.io
> Reply-To: m...@bits.groups.io
> 
> Hello,
> This is a request for Mac users.
>  
> My Macbook, which is a 2015 macbook pro 15 inch has suddenly started acting 
> very strange when I start it up.  And, I need to find out how to try and do a 
> repair of my operating system.
>  
> When I start my computer it starts saying “voiceover off, voiceover off, 
> voiceover off” over and over.
> It does not allow me to finish starting up by logging into my computer.
>  
> However, if I do a command F5 to turn voiceover off, then I can log in and it 
> appears to operate properly until I shut it down and try to start up again.
>  
> It actually started that about 2 months ago, but I have avoided really 
> operating it much since then and I know that now it is asking me if I want to 
> update my macbook when I go into “about this Mac”.
>  
> I tried to find where I can have it do a system analysis, but I have not 
> found that.  I am sure it will tell me something is wrong if I can have it 
> check my system files.
>  
> I should also state that I had not added any new softwar for at least 2 or 3 
> months before this started happening.
>  
> Any ideas and any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>  
> Thank you,
> Dexter Penwell
> _._,_._,_
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Re: Question about Voiceover issue when starting my Macbook Pro

[Bob Hill]

That's exactly what I needed to do. 
Thanks for the info. 
Time to reread the list of commands and shortcuts. 
Help is much appreciated. 

Bob 


Sent from Bob's iPhone

> On Apr 3, 2023, at 8:42 PM, Herbie Allen  wrote:
> 
> Tripple Tap yor track pad with three fingers.
> 
>> On Apr 3, 2023, at 19:20, Robert Hill  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi everyone,
>> 
>> Having a brain cramp on an issue starting my MacBook Pro with VoiceOver.
>> Somehow my settings got changed so when I start my computer I hear VoiceOver 
>> on, then "speech off".
>> What keystrokes do I use to get speech turned back on?
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> Bob Hill
>> 
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Re: Question about Voiceover issue when starting my Macbook Pro

['Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries]

Hi,

Voiceover is probably muted so double-tap with three fingers on the trackpad to 
unmute it.

Andrew

> On 4 Apr 2023, at 01:42, Herbie Allen  wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Having a brain cramp on an issue starting my MacBook Pro with VoiceOver.
> Somehow my settings got changed so when I start my computer I hear VoiceOver 
> on, then "speech off".
> What keystrokes do I use to get speech turned back on?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Bob Hill
> 
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Re: Question about Voiceover issue when starting my Macbook Pro

[Herbie Allen]

Tripple Tap yor track pad with three fingers.

> On Apr 3, 2023, at 19:20, Robert Hill  wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Having a brain cramp on an issue starting my MacBook Pro with VoiceOver.
> Somehow my settings got changed so when I start my computer I hear VoiceOver 
> on, then "speech off".
> What keystrokes do I use to get speech turned back on?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Bob Hill
> 
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Question about Voiceover issue when starting my Macbook Pro

[Robert Hill]

Hi everyone,

Having a brain cramp on an issue starting my MacBook Pro with VoiceOver.
Somehow my settings got changed so when I start my computer I hear VoiceOver 
on, then "speech off".
What keystrokes do I use to get speech turned back on?

Thanks.

Bob Hill

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Re: Question: Which thunderbolt port powers the M2 Macbook?

['Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries]

What a stunningly delicious answer! Thanks, Brad.

I say delicious because I know there will be times when the least
obtrusive path for that one thunderbolt cable will be to my left, and
other times when it will be to my right. This is assuming it will be
useful to take this (or a similar dock) with me on the road. I've been
in too many hotel rooms for week-long stays to be keenly aware of how
this is really the most helpful situation possible. Something so simple
can actually matter for comfort and ease of use.

Best,

Janina

Brad Snyder writes:
> Any of them.
> You can use any of the thunderbolt ports on a MacBook Pro/air to provide 
> power to the unit.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> On Mar 19, 2023, at 01:43, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Anyone know?
> 
> Is it the single thunderbolt port on the right edge between the card
> reader and the hdmi port? Or is it one of the two thunderbolt ports on
> the left next to the power connector?
> 
> I'm thinking of picking up the Corsair TBT200 this week and wondering
> where to interface it on my Macbook. It's a pricy dock, but it is
> powered by its own power supply and able to deliver 96W to the Macbook.
> I like the idea of just one cable connection everytime I want to remove
> or return my laptop to my desk.
> 
> FYI: Here's a review:
> 
> https://www.lbtechreviews.com/test/computer/corsair-tbt200
> 
> Best,
> 
> Janina
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Janina Sajka (she/her/hers)
> Accessibility Consultant https://linkedin.com/in/jsajka
> 
> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> Co-Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa
> 
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> https://www.linuxfoundation.org/board-of-directors-2/
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The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
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Re: Question: Which thunderbolt port powers the M2 Macbook?

[Brad Snyder]

Any of them.
You can use any of the thunderbolt ports on a MacBook Pro/air to provide power 
to the unit.

- Brad -

On Mar 19, 2023, at 01:43, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries 
 wrote:

Anyone know?

Is it the single thunderbolt port on the right edge between the card
reader and the hdmi port? Or is it one of the two thunderbolt ports on
the left next to the power connector?

I'm thinking of picking up the Corsair TBT200 this week and wondering
where to interface it on my Macbook. It's a pricy dock, but it is
powered by its own power supply and able to deliver 96W to the Macbook.
I like the idea of just one cable connection everytime I want to remove
or return my laptop to my desk.

FYI: Here's a review:

https://www.lbtechreviews.com/test/computer/corsair-tbt200

Best,

Janina


-- 

Janina Sajka (she/her/hers)
Accessibility Consultant https://linkedin.com/in/jsajka

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Co-Chair, Accessible Platform Architectureshttp://www.w3.org/wai/apa

Linux Foundation Fellow
https://www.linuxfoundation.org/board-of-directors-2/

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Question: Which thunderbolt port powers the M2 Macbook?

['Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries]

Anyone know?

Is it the single thunderbolt port on the right edge between the card
reader and the hdmi port? Or is it one of the two thunderbolt ports on
the left next to the power connector?

I'm thinking of picking up the Corsair TBT200 this week and wondering
where to interface it on my Macbook. It's a pricy dock, but it is
powered by its own power supply and able to deliver 96W to the Macbook.
I like the idea of just one cable connection everytime I want to remove
or return my laptop to my desk.

FYI: Here's a review:

https://www.lbtechreviews.com/test/computer/corsair-tbt200

Best,

Janina


-- 

Janina Sajka (she/her/hers)
Accessibility Consultant https://linkedin.com/in/jsajka

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Co-Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa

Linux Foundation Fellow
https://www.linuxfoundation.org/board-of-directors-2/

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Re: M1 MacBook question.

[Brad Snyder]

And the M1 MacBook Air is last year's model, so it is even cheaper than this 
year's model , with the M2 processor.

- Brad -

On Jan 24, 2023, at 18:48, Herbie Allen  wrote:

It’s cheaper.

> On Jan 24, 2023, at 18:38, Jessica Moss  wrote:
> 
> That’s interesting, I wonder why my supervisor was trying to push so hard for 
> me to get the MacBook Air over the pro then, aside from it supposedly having 
> better battery life, and originally I’d asked the company to purchase for me, 
> since one of my reasons for needing it was to audit their site, which doesn’t 
> perform efficiently on my current machine, but the way they insist on running 
> it currently and have for years, it won’t with anyone running an older 
> computer system.
> However, when I asked for the MacBook Pro, and gave my reasons, I later found 
> out from my supervisor that they denied my request, but were willing to 
> purchase a MacBook Air; however, he told me that he as well as another team 
> member currently have them, and with them being company computers, the 
> trackers they put on them cause them to become unstable and have been known 
> to crash, so he’s encouraged me to try to purchase one on my own.  So with 
> this being the case, I’m really trying to figure out what would be the better 
> deal before I just take the plunge and buy one.
> 
>> On Jan 24, 2023, at 7:25 PM, 'Jason White' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On 24/1/23 19:22, Jessica Moss wrote:
>>> I was told the M1 MacBook Air actually has a better processor than the 
>>> MacBook Pro, even though it has less ram, supposedly that wouldn’t make a 
>>> huge difference.
>>> Is this correct?
>> 
>> No, the M1 Pro and M1 Max processors in the 2021 MacBook Pro are better than 
>> the M2 processor in the MacBook Air.
>> 
>> The recently released M2 Pro and M2 Max processors in the latest MacBook Pro 
>> are even better, however. See appleinsider.com for discussion.
>> 
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Re: M1 MacBook question.

[lenron brown]

It's cheaper that's the reason why. The pro is more powerful than the
Air. There some places may even have deals on the m 1 pro, if you are
trying to save money. Especially because of the m 2 pro and pro max
being released

On 1/24/23, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> Hello,
> At least before last week’s announcement, the MacBook Air was slightly
> better than the low end MacBookPro.  All of the M1/M2 MacBook computers
> should respond very closely when doing accessibility audits of WEB sites. If
> you come across a web site that does not perform well with the lowest end M1
> based Macintosh I shudder to think how it would perform against a Chrome
> Book unless the web site has bugs related to Safari or MacOS.
>
>
>   Best wishes,
>
> Jonathan Cohn
>
>
>
>> On Jan 24, 2023, at 7:44 PM, Herbie Allen  wrote:
>>
>> It’s cheaper.
>>
>>> On Jan 24, 2023, at 18:38, Jessica Moss 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> That’s interesting, I wonder why my supervisor was trying to push so hard
>>> for me to get the MacBook Air over the pro then, aside from it supposedly
>>> having better battery life, and originally I’d asked the company to
>>> purchase for me, since one of my reasons for needing it was to audit
>>> their site, which doesn’t perform efficiently on my current machine, but
>>> the way they insist on running it currently and have for years, it won’t
>>> with anyone running an older computer system.
>>> However, when I asked for the MacBook Pro, and gave my reasons, I later
>>> found out from my supervisor that they denied my request, but were
>>> willing to purchase a MacBook Air; however, he told me that he as well as
>>> another team member currently have them, and with them being company
>>> computers, the trackers they put on them cause them to become unstable
>>> and have been known to crash, so he’s encouraged me to try to purchase
>>> one on my own.  So with this being the case, I’m really trying to figure
>>> out what would be the better deal before I just take the plunge and buy
>>> one.
>>>
>>>> On Jan 24, 2023, at 7:25 PM, 'Jason White' via MacVisionaries
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 24/1/23 19:22, Jessica Moss wrote:
>>>>> I was told the M1 MacBook Air actually has a better processor than the
>>>>> MacBook Pro, even though it has less ram, supposedly that wouldn’t make
>>>>> a huge difference.
>>>>> Is this correct?
>>>>
>>>> No, the M1 Pro and M1 Max processors in the 2021 MacBook Pro are better
>>>> than the M2 processor in the MacBook Air.
>>>>
>>>> The recently released M2 Pro and M2 Max processors in the latest MacBook
>>>> Pro are even better, however. See appleinsider.com for discussion.
>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>>
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>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>>>
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>>>> at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at
>>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>>>
>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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>>>
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>>>
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark
>>> at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn -

Re: M1 MacBook question.

[Jonathan Cohn]

Hello,
At least before last week’s announcement, the MacBook Air was slightly better 
than the low end MacBookPro.  All of the M1/M2 MacBook computers should respond 
very closely when doing accessibility audits of WEB sites. If you come across a 
web site that does not perform well with the lowest end M1 based Macintosh I 
shudder to think how it would perform against a Chrome Book unless the web site 
has bugs related to Safari or MacOS.

 
Best wishes,

Jonathan Cohn



> On Jan 24, 2023, at 7:44 PM, Herbie Allen  wrote:
> 
> It’s cheaper.
> 
>> On Jan 24, 2023, at 18:38, Jessica Moss  wrote:
>> 
>> That’s interesting, I wonder why my supervisor was trying to push so hard 
>> for me to get the MacBook Air over the pro then, aside from it supposedly 
>> having better battery life, and originally I’d asked the company to purchase 
>> for me, since one of my reasons for needing it was to audit their site, 
>> which doesn’t perform efficiently on my current machine, but the way they 
>> insist on running it currently and have for years, it won’t with anyone 
>> running an older computer system.
>> However, when I asked for the MacBook Pro, and gave my reasons, I later 
>> found out from my supervisor that they denied my request, but were willing 
>> to purchase a MacBook Air; however, he told me that he as well as another 
>> team member currently have them, and with them being company computers, the 
>> trackers they put on them cause them to become unstable and have been known 
>> to crash, so he’s encouraged me to try to purchase one on my own.  So with 
>> this being the case, I’m really trying to figure out what would be the 
>> better deal before I just take the plunge and buy one.
>> 
>>> On Jan 24, 2023, at 7:25 PM, 'Jason White' via MacVisionaries 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 24/1/23 19:22, Jessica Moss wrote:
>>>> I was told the M1 MacBook Air actually has a better processor than the 
>>>> MacBook Pro, even though it has less ram, supposedly that wouldn’t make a 
>>>> huge difference.
>>>> Is this correct?
>>> 
>>> No, the M1 Pro and M1 Max processors in the 2021 MacBook Pro are better 
>>> than the M2 processor in the MacBook Air.
>>> 
>>> The recently released M2 Pro and M2 Max processors in the latest MacBook 
>>> Pro are even better, however. See appleinsider.com for discussion.
>>> 
>>> -- 
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>>> Visionaries list.
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>>> 
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>>>  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
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>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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>> 
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Re: M1 MacBook question.

[Herbie Allen]

It’s cheaper.

> On Jan 24, 2023, at 18:38, Jessica Moss  wrote:
> 
> That’s interesting, I wonder why my supervisor was trying to push so hard for 
> me to get the MacBook Air over the pro then, aside from it supposedly having 
> better battery life, and originally I’d asked the company to purchase for me, 
> since one of my reasons for needing it was to audit their site, which doesn’t 
> perform efficiently on my current machine, but the way they insist on running 
> it currently and have for years, it won’t with anyone running an older 
> computer system.
>  However, when I asked for the MacBook Pro, and gave my reasons, I later 
> found out from my supervisor that they denied my request, but were willing to 
> purchase a MacBook Air; however, he told me that he as well as another team 
> member currently have them, and with them being company computers, the 
> trackers they put on them cause them to become unstable and have been known 
> to crash, so he’s encouraged me to try to purchase one on my own.  So with 
> this being the case, I’m really trying to figure out what would be the better 
> deal before I just take the plunge and buy one.
> 
>> On Jan 24, 2023, at 7:25 PM, 'Jason White' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On 24/1/23 19:22, Jessica Moss wrote:
>>> I was told the M1 MacBook Air actually has a better processor than the 
>>> MacBook Pro, even though it has less ram, supposedly that wouldn’t make a 
>>> huge difference.
>>>  Is this correct?
>> 
>> No, the M1 Pro and M1 Max processors in the 2021 MacBook Pro are better than 
>> the M2 processor in the MacBook Air.
>> 
>> The recently released M2 Pro and M2 Max processors in the latest MacBook Pro 
>> are even better, however. See appleinsider.com for discussion.
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
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>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
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>> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
>> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
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> 
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Re: M1 MacBook question.

[Jessica Moss]

That’s interesting, I wonder why my supervisor was trying to push so hard for 
me to get the MacBook Air over the pro then, aside from it supposedly having 
better battery life, and originally I’d asked the company to purchase for me, 
since one of my reasons for needing it was to audit their site, which doesn’t 
perform efficiently on my current machine, but the way they insist on running 
it currently and have for years, it won’t with anyone running an older computer 
system.
  However, when I asked for the MacBook Pro, and gave my reasons, I later found 
out from my supervisor that they denied my request, but were willing to 
purchase a MacBook Air; however, he told me that he as well as another team 
member currently have them, and with them being company computers, the trackers 
they put on them cause them to become unstable and have been known to crash, so 
he’s encouraged me to try to purchase one on my own.  So with this being the 
case, I’m really trying to figure out what would be the better deal before I 
just take the plunge and buy one.

> On Jan 24, 2023, at 7:25 PM, 'Jason White' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> On 24/1/23 19:22, Jessica Moss wrote:
>> I was told the M1 MacBook Air actually has a better processor than the 
>> MacBook Pro, even though it has less ram, supposedly that wouldn’t make a 
>> huge difference.
>>   Is this correct?
> 
> No, the M1 Pro and M1 Max processors in the 2021 MacBook Pro are better than 
> the M2 processor in the MacBook Air.
> 
> The recently released M2 Pro and M2 Max processors in the latest MacBook Pro 
> are even better, however. See appleinsider.com for discussion.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
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Re: M1 MacBook question.

['Jason White' via MacVisionaries]

On 24/1/23 19:22, Jessica Moss wrote:

I was told the M1 MacBook Air actually has a better processor than the MacBook 
Pro, even though it has less ram, supposedly that wouldn’t make a huge 
difference.
   Is this correct?


No, the M1 Pro and M1 Max processors in the 2021 MacBook Pro are better 
than the M2 processor in the MacBook Air.


The recently released M2 Pro and M2 Max processors in the latest MacBook 
Pro are even better, however. See appleinsider.com for discussion.


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M1 MacBook question.

[Jessica Moss]

I’m looking at purchasing one of the M1 MacBooks preferably before March, since 
I just found out a couple of weeks ago our company’s web site is launching an 
update then, and in the past, our web site and my 2017 machine don’t play nice 
with each other. I was told the M1 MacBook Air actually has a better processor 
than the MacBook Pro, even though it has less ram, supposedly that wouldn’t 
make a huge difference.
  Is this correct?

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Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

[Raymond Foret Jr]

Such is the case for me also:  by which I mean command+optionplusup or down to 
move to top and bottom respectively.  

Sincerely,
The Constantly Barefooted Ray
Still a very proud Mac, Xfinity Mobile and Apple TV user

> On Jan 8, 2023, at 4:44 PM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Not to perpetuate the earlier discussion, but for me, moving from top to 
> bottom of the mailbox list is accomplished by pressing CMD-Option plus up or 
> down arrow to move to the top or bottom respectively.  Just mentioning this 
> in case that turns out to be the case for Kevin as well.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 4:36 PM, Bradford Snyder > <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Kevin,
>> 
>> When in the Mail app on your Mac, you can easily move to the top or bottom 
>> of the mailbox list by pressing the Option key, then use the Up Arrow to 
>> move to the first item in the mailbox list, or press the down Arrow to move 
>> to the last item in the mailbox list.
>> You can move between individual items in the list by simply pressing the 
>> up/down arrow keys. 
>> If you choose to interact with the mailbox list, you will find that 
>> navigation is different, and you will need to use the VO modifier, along 
>> with arrow keys.
>> 
>> HTH.
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 13:47, Kevin Gibbs > <mailto:kevj...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> Guys,
>> 
>> I’ll jump back in here.  I tried the stuff we’re talking about and here is 
>> what happens for me.  
>> 
>> First, keep in mind that I am a low vision person who can observe certain 
>> outcomes on screen.  
>> 
>> 2.  This all started in my Google mailbox within Apple Mail on an M1 MacBook 
>> Pro running Monterey.  When I press and hold the function key and then press 
>> right arrow, I do see a change on screen.  The change is that the previously 
>> selected e-mail in the inbox is no longer selected.  I’m not exactly clear 
>> what happens.  Further, nothing is spoken.  
>> 
>> 3.  If I hold down the FN key and the VO key, (CAPS LOCK in my case,) 
>> pressing right arrow appears to move me to the top most e-mail in the 
>> mailbox.  A subsequent press of FN VO left arrow appears to bring me to the 
>> bottom most or most recent e-mail in the mailbox.  In each of these last two 
>> cases, the e-mail is spoken when it becomes the selected e-mail.  So, it 
>> appears that I need to hold fn and VO and press the left or right arrow to 
>> get two the bottom or top.  Curiously, up and down arrows don’t appear to do 
>> anything in this specific mailbox case.  I haven’t tried any of this within 
>> a document or anywhere else.  The whole deal was how to move around quickly 
>> in mailboxes without disturbing the unread status of intervening messages.  
>> 
>> I’ll say that my query has been satisfactorily addressed for now.  
>> 
>> 
>> Thanks for everything,
>> Kevinb
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 12:15 PM, Brad Snyder >> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Donna and all,
>>> 
>>> What you are experiencing has to do with the behavior of VoiceOver 
>>> navigation within a specific application, such as Mail, TextEdit, or  other 
>>> native Mac applications.
>>> This is a separate issue from modifying the behavior of the arrow keys 
>>> while holding down only the Fn key.
>>> 
>>> - Brad -
>>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:53, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thanks, Michael and Dave.  Very glad that you can reproduce what I’m 
>>> seeing. Dave, I’ve used the Mac long enough that I don’t go into keyboard 
>>> help all that often. What you said about the longer explanation is 
>>> interesting, I hadn’t stuck around in Help long enough to hear all that.  I 
>>> think I just figured out the VO thing by experimenting until I found the 
>>> key combination that worked.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Donna
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:40 AM, Dave Carlson >>> <mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I’ve noticed a subtle difference when experimenting in the VO keyboard 
>>>> help mode.
>>>> 
>>>> With just Fn and the left/right the announcement is Home and end, as 
>>>> reported.
>>>> 
>>>> Howev

Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

['Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries]

Not to perpetuate the earlier discussion, but for me, moving from top to bottom 
of the mailbox list is accomplished by pressing CMD-Option plus up or down 
arrow to move to the top or bottom respectively.  Just mentioning this in case 
that turns out to be the case for Kevin as well.
Cheers,
Donna

> On Jan 8, 2023, at 4:36 PM, Bradford Snyder  wrote:
> 
> Hi Kevin,
> 
> When in the Mail app on your Mac, you can easily move to the top or bottom of 
> the mailbox list by pressing the Option key, then use the Up Arrow to move to 
> the first item in the mailbox list, or press the down Arrow to move to the 
> last item in the mailbox list.
> You can move between individual items in the list by simply pressing the 
> up/down arrow keys. 
> If you choose to interact with the mailbox list, you will find that 
> navigation is different, and you will need to use the VO modifier, along with 
> arrow keys.
> 
> HTH.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 8, 2023, at 13:47, Kevin Gibbs  wrote:
> 
> Guys,
> 
> I’ll jump back in here.  I tried the stuff we’re talking about and here is 
> what happens for me.  
> 
> First, keep in mind that I am a low vision person who can observe certain 
> outcomes on screen.  
> 
> 2.  This all started in my Google mailbox within Apple Mail on an M1 MacBook 
> Pro running Monterey.  When I press and hold the function key and then press 
> right arrow, I do see a change on screen.  The change is that the previously 
> selected e-mail in the inbox is no longer selected.  I’m not exactly clear 
> what happens.  Further, nothing is spoken.  
> 
> 3.  If I hold down the FN key and the VO key, (CAPS LOCK in my case,) 
> pressing right arrow appears to move me to the top most e-mail in the 
> mailbox.  A subsequent press of FN VO left arrow appears to bring me to the 
> bottom most or most recent e-mail in the mailbox.  In each of these last two 
> cases, the e-mail is spoken when it becomes the selected e-mail.  So, it 
> appears that I need to hold fn and VO and press the left or right arrow to 
> get two the bottom or top.  Curiously, up and down arrows don’t appear to do 
> anything in this specific mailbox case.  I haven’t tried any of this within a 
> document or anywhere else.  The whole deal was how to move around quickly in 
> mailboxes without disturbing the unread status of intervening messages.  
> 
> I’ll say that my query has been satisfactorily addressed for now.  
> 
> 
> Thanks for everything,
> Kevinb
> 
> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 12:15 PM, Brad Snyder > <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Donna and all,
>> 
>> What you are experiencing has to do with the behavior of VoiceOver 
>> navigation within a specific application, such as Mail, TextEdit, or  other 
>> native Mac applications.
>> This is a separate issue from modifying the behavior of the arrow keys while 
>> holding down only the Fn key.
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:53, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks, Michael and Dave.  Very glad that you can reproduce what I’m 
>> seeing. Dave, I’ve used the Mac long enough that I don’t go into keyboard 
>> help all that often. What you said about the longer explanation is 
>> interesting, I hadn’t stuck around in Help long enough to hear all that.  I 
>> think I just figured out the VO thing by experimenting until I found the key 
>> combination that worked.
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:40 AM, Dave Carlson >> <mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I’ve noticed a subtle difference when experimenting in the VO keyboard help 
>>> mode.
>>> 
>>> With just Fn and the left/right the announcement is Home and end, as 
>>> reported.
>>> 
>>> However when holding Fn plus VO and pressing left arrow, a moment after 
>>> saying home it will also announce “Go to beginning, moves the cursor to the 
>>> beginning” and similar additional information for the right arrow.
>>> 
>>> I think there is a difference in behavior for these two scenarios that may 
>>> indeed affect how it works inside documents, etc.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dave Carlson
>>> Farfar, Oregonian, Engineer, Woodworker, Musician
>>> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com <mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:29 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>

Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

[Bradford Snyder]

Hi Kevin,

When in the Mail app on your Mac, you can easily move to the top or bottom of 
the mailbox list by pressing the Option key, then use the Up Arrow to move to 
the first item in the mailbox list, or press the down Arrow to move to the last 
item in the mailbox list.
You can move between individual items in the list by simply pressing the 
up/down arrow keys. 
If you choose to interact with the mailbox list, you will find that navigation 
is different, and you will need to use the VO modifier, along with arrow keys.

HTH.

- Brad -



On Jan 8, 2023, at 13:47, Kevin Gibbs  wrote:

Guys,

I’ll jump back in here.  I tried the stuff we’re talking about and here is what 
happens for me.  

First, keep in mind that I am a low vision person who can observe certain 
outcomes on screen.  

2.  This all started in my Google mailbox within Apple Mail on an M1 MacBook 
Pro running Monterey.  When I press and hold the function key and then press 
right arrow, I do see a change on screen.  The change is that the previously 
selected e-mail in the inbox is no longer selected.  I’m not exactly clear what 
happens.  Further, nothing is spoken.  

3.  If I hold down the FN key and the VO key, (CAPS LOCK in my case,) pressing 
right arrow appears to move me to the top most e-mail in the mailbox.  A 
subsequent press of FN VO left arrow appears to bring me to the bottom most or 
most recent e-mail in the mailbox.  In each of these last two cases, the e-mail 
is spoken when it becomes the selected e-mail.  So, it appears that I need to 
hold fn and VO and press the left or right arrow to get two the bottom or top.  
Curiously, up and down arrows don’t appear to do anything in this specific 
mailbox case.  I haven’t tried any of this within a document or anywhere else.  
The whole deal was how to move around quickly in mailboxes without disturbing 
the unread status of intervening messages.  

I’ll say that my query has been satisfactorily addressed for now.  


Thanks for everything,
Kevinb


> On Jan 8, 2023, at 12:15 PM, Brad Snyder  <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
> 
> Hello Donna and all,
> 
> What you are experiencing has to do with the behavior of VoiceOver navigation 
> within a specific application, such as Mail, TextEdit, or  other native Mac 
> applications.
> This is a separate issue from modifying the behavior of the arrow keys while 
> holding down only the Fn key.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:53, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
> wrote:
> 
> Thanks, Michael and Dave.  Very glad that you can reproduce what I’m seeing. 
> Dave, I’ve used the Mac long enough that I don’t go into keyboard help all 
> that often. What you said about the longer explanation is interesting, I 
> hadn’t stuck around in Help long enough to hear all that.  I think I just 
> figured out the VO thing by experimenting until I found the key combination 
> that worked.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:40 AM, Dave Carlson > <mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I’ve noticed a subtle difference when experimenting in the VO keyboard help 
>> mode.
>> 
>> With just Fn and the left/right the announcement is Home and end, as 
>> reported.
>> 
>> However when holding Fn plus VO and pressing left arrow, a moment after 
>> saying home it will also announce “Go to beginning, moves the cursor to the 
>> beginning” and similar additional information for the right arrow.
>> 
>> I think there is a difference in behavior for these two scenarios that may 
>> indeed affect how it works inside documents, etc.
>> 
>> 
>> Dave Carlson
>> Farfar, Oregonian, Engineer, Woodworker, Musician
>> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com <mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:29 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Michael,
>> 
>> So if I go into keyboard help and press those keys—exactly as you 
>> describe—VO does say Home, End etc.  But if I press FN plus an arrow key 
>> without the VO modifier while in a document, webpage etc,nothing happens.
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:23 AM, Michael Babcock >> <mailto:michael@payown.media>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Donna!
>>> 
>>> To verify, when you press and hold FN, while pressing left or right in 
>>> keyboard help mode with VO+K your saying your computer doesn’t say home or 
>>> end unless you press the VO keys as well?
>>> 
>>> That is strange, on this MacBook Air, I can do the followi

Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

['E.T.' via MacVisionaries]

   When one responds to perceived "negative/obnoxious" behavior with 
the same, no on wins, everybody loses. 'Nuff said.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible
will make violent revolution inevitable."
 --John F. Kennedy
My e-Mail:
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 1/8/2023 11:00 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries wrote:

With all due respect, it has to do with the list environment, and therefore 
belongs here.  It is not OK for one member to create an unpleasant list 
environment for others, by criticizing, denigrating, or invalidating others’ 
posts.  We all post things that are for whatever reason not accurate on 
occasion.  That’s inevitable when you have a group of people running several 
different operating systems, and different configurations of those operating 
systems.  In those situations correction is important. But it should be done in 
a way that is constructive, not rude or arrogant.
Donna


On Jan 8, 2023, at 12:33 PM, 'E.T.' via MacVisionaries 
 wrote:

   Do us all a favor and take this off list where it belongs. Personality 
conflicts are off topic as they have nothing to do with Apple products.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible
will make violent revolution inevitable."
--John F. Kennedy
My e-Mail:
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 1/8/2023 9:07 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries wrote:

Brad,. I am really tired of the obnoxious behavior you display on this list.  
Either learn to be civil, or get off the list.
I can reproduce this behavior flawlessly, and without exception.  Just pressing 
the FN key does NOTHING! So, you can be rude all you want, but I’m going to 
post my experience as there is probably someone else out there who experiences 
the same thing, as I don’t that my Mac is an anomaly.  I don’t doubt that your 
Mac behaves as you describe, but mine, and undoubtedly others, do not.  So 
please don’t dismiss what I write out of hand.
Donna

On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:41 AM, Brad Snyder mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:

Hi Donna,
You can disagree all you want, but the VO key is not necessary to change the 
behavior of the arrow keys when using the Fn key.

- Brad -

On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:11, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
wrote:

Sorry, Brad, but I have to disagree.  When I just press the FN key nothing 
happens.  When I press the VO modifier, the keys behave as you describe.
Cheers,
Donna


On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:27 AM, Bradford Snyder mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:

Changing the behavior of the arrow keys is not a function of VoiceOver, 
therefore it is not necessary to use the VO modifier in order to use the 
alternate actions of the arrow keys as described in my original response.
You can test this by turning on Keyboard Help, then press the different arrow 
keys while holding down only the Fn key.
Whether or not the VO modifier is used along with the Fn key makes no matter.  
The actions of the arrow keys will be the same.

- Brad -



On Jan 8, 2023, at 08:55, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
wrote:

Just one addition to this, for me to use these commands, I also have to hold 
down the VO keys.  So, VO-FN-right arrow for home, etc.
Cheers,
Donna


On Jan 7, 2023, at 4:59 PM, Bradford Snyder mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:

If you hold down the Fn key, the arrow keys become the following:
Left Arrow becomes the Home key.
Right Arrow becomes the End key.
Up Arrow becomes the Page Up key.
Down Arrow becomes the Page Down key.

HTH.

- Brad -



On Jan 7, 2023, at 16:41, Kevin Gibbs mailto:kevj...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Sometimes, I don’t have my full extended keyboard and have to type on just my 
MacBook Pro keyboard.  But I don’t have Page Up/Down or Home and End keys.  How 
does one compensate for this?

Thanks,
Kevin

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list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you 
feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at: mk...@ucla.edu 
<mailto:mk...@ucla.edu> and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
caraqu...@caraquinn.com <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>

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Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

[Kevin Gibbs]

Guys,

I’ll jump back in here.  I tried the stuff we’re talking about and here is what 
happens for me.  

First, keep in mind that I am a low vision person who can observe certain 
outcomes on screen.  

2.  This all started in my Google mailbox within Apple Mail on an M1 MacBook 
Pro running Monterey.  When I press and hold the function key and then press 
right arrow, I do see a change on screen.  The change is that the previously 
selected e-mail in the inbox is no longer selected.  I’m not exactly clear what 
happens.  Further, nothing is spoken.  

3.  If I hold down the FN key and the VO key, (CAPS LOCK in my case,) pressing 
right arrow appears to move me to the top most e-mail in the mailbox.  A 
subsequent press of FN VO left arrow appears to bring me to the bottom most or 
most recent e-mail in the mailbox.  In each of these last two cases, the e-mail 
is spoken when it becomes the selected e-mail.  So, it appears that I need to 
hold fn and VO and press the left or right arrow to get two the bottom or top.  
Curiously, up and down arrows don’t appear to do anything in this specific 
mailbox case.  I haven’t tried any of this within a document or anywhere else.  
The whole deal was how to move around quickly in mailboxes without disturbing 
the unread status of intervening messages.  

I’ll say that my query has been satisfactorily addressed for now.  


Thanks for everything,
Kevinb


> On Jan 8, 2023, at 12:15 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> Hello Donna and all,
> 
> What you are experiencing has to do with the behavior of VoiceOver navigation 
> within a specific application, such as Mail, TextEdit, or  other native Mac 
> applications.
> This is a separate issue from modifying the behavior of the arrow keys while 
> holding down only the Fn key.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:53, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thanks, Michael and Dave.  Very glad that you can reproduce what I’m seeing. 
> Dave, I’ve used the Mac long enough that I don’t go into keyboard help all 
> that often. What you said about the longer explanation is interesting, I 
> hadn’t stuck around in Help long enough to hear all that.  I think I just 
> figured out the VO thing by experimenting until I found the key combination 
> that worked.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:40 AM, Dave Carlson > <mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I’ve noticed a subtle difference when experimenting in the VO keyboard help 
>> mode.
>> 
>> With just Fn and the left/right the announcement is Home and end, as 
>> reported.
>> 
>> However when holding Fn plus VO and pressing left arrow, a moment after 
>> saying home it will also announce “Go to beginning, moves the cursor to the 
>> beginning” and similar additional information for the right arrow.
>> 
>> I think there is a difference in behavior for these two scenarios that may 
>> indeed affect how it works inside documents, etc.
>> 
>> 
>> Dave Carlson
>> Farfar, Oregonian, Engineer, Woodworker, Musician
>> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com <mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:29 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Michael,
>> 
>> So if I go into keyboard help and press those keys—exactly as you 
>> describe—VO does say Home, End etc.  But if I press FN plus an arrow key 
>> without the VO modifier while in a document, webpage etc,nothing happens.
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:23 AM, Michael Babcock >> <mailto:michael@payown.media>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Donna!
>>> 
>>> To verify, when you press and hold FN, while pressing left or right in 
>>> keyboard help mode with VO+K your saying your computer doesn’t say home or 
>>> end unless you press the VO keys as well?
>>> 
>>> That is strange, on this MacBook Air, I can do the following steps:
>>> 
>>> 1. Press VO+K to enter keyboard help mode
>>> 2. Press and hold the FN key, bottom left key
>>> 3. While still pressing FN, press left or right and I hear Home or End 
>>> respectively.
>>> 
>>> Have a beautiful day.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:07 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Brad,. I am really tired of the obnoxious behavior you display on this 
>>>> list.  Either learn to be civil, or get off the list.
&

Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

['Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries]

Hi Brad,

That’s very possible.  That’s why I said it appears to be system wide.  I can’t 
say that I’ve tried it in every single app on my Mac.  I just wanted newer 
users to know that they might have to add the VO modifier keys for it to work.
Cheers,
Donna

> On Jan 8, 2023, at 1:08 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> Hi Donna,
> 
> These are all native Mac apps. Behavior may be different with non-native Mac 
> apps.
> 
> HTH.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> On Jan 8, 2023, at 12:54, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Brad,
> 
> I can tell you that on my Mac, I see the same behavior in Mail, Text Edit, 
> Pages, and Safari.  So it would appear to be system wide.
> Donna
> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 12:15 PM, Brad Snyder > <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Donna and all,
>> 
>> What you are experiencing has to do with the behavior of VoiceOver 
>> navigation within a specific application, such as Mail, TextEdit, or  other 
>> native Mac applications.
>> This is a separate issue from modifying the behavior of the arrow keys while 
>> holding down only the Fn key.
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:53, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks, Michael and Dave.  Very glad that you can reproduce what I’m 
>> seeing. Dave, I’ve used the Mac long enough that I don’t go into keyboard 
>> help all that often. What you said about the longer explanation is 
>> interesting, I hadn’t stuck around in Help long enough to hear all that.  I 
>> think I just figured out the VO thing by experimenting until I found the key 
>> combination that worked.
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:40 AM, Dave Carlson >> <mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I’ve noticed a subtle difference when experimenting in the VO keyboard help 
>>> mode.
>>> 
>>> With just Fn and the left/right the announcement is Home and end, as 
>>> reported.
>>> 
>>> However when holding Fn plus VO and pressing left arrow, a moment after 
>>> saying home it will also announce “Go to beginning, moves the cursor to the 
>>> beginning” and similar additional information for the right arrow.
>>> 
>>> I think there is a difference in behavior for these two scenarios that may 
>>> indeed affect how it works inside documents, etc.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Dave Carlson
>>> Farfar, Oregonian, Engineer, Woodworker, Musician
>>> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com <mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:29 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Michael,
>>> 
>>> So if I go into keyboard help and press those keys—exactly as you 
>>> describe—VO does say Home, End etc.  But if I press FN plus an arrow key 
>>> without the VO modifier while in a document, webpage etc,nothing happens.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Donna
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:23 AM, Michael Babcock >>> <mailto:michael@payown.media>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Donna!
>>>> 
>>>> To verify, when you press and hold FN, while pressing left or right in 
>>>> keyboard help mode with VO+K your saying your computer doesn’t say home or 
>>>> end unless you press the VO keys as well?
>>>> 
>>>> That is strange, on this MacBook Air, I can do the following steps:
>>>> 
>>>> 1. Press VO+K to enter keyboard help mode
>>>> 2. Press and hold the FN key, bottom left key
>>>> 3. While still pressing FN, press left or right and I hear Home or End 
>>>> respectively.
>>>> 
>>>> Have a beautiful day.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:07 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>> >>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Brad,. I am really tired of the obnoxious behavior you display on this 
>>>>> list.  Either learn to be civil, or get off the list.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I can reproduce this behavior flawlessly, and without exception.  Just 
>>>>> pressing the FN key does NOTHING! So, you can be rude all you want, but 
>>>&

Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

[Phil Halton]

Hi ET, true they are off topic, but a good pissing contest helps to brighten an 
otherwise dreary Sunday afternoon.  don’t you agree? 😁

Sent from my IPhone


> On Jan 8, 2023, at 2:00 PM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> With all due respect, it has to do with the list environment, and therefore 
> belongs here.  It is not OK for one member to create an unpleasant list 
> environment for others, by criticizing, denigrating, or invalidating others’ 
> posts.  We all post things that are for whatever reason not accurate on 
> occasion.  That’s inevitable when you have a group of people running several 
> different operating systems, and different configurations of those operating 
> systems.  In those situations correction is important. But it should be done 
> in a way that is constructive, not rude or arrogant.
> Donna
> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 12:33 PM, 'E.T.' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>  Do us all a favor and take this off list where it belongs. Personality 
>> conflicts are off topic as they have nothing to do with Apple products.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>> "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible
>> will make violent revolution inevitable."
>> --John F. Kennedy
>> My e-Mail:
>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> 
>>> On 1/8/2023 9:07 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries wrote:
>>> Brad,. I am really tired of the obnoxious behavior you display on this 
>>> list.  Either learn to be civil, or get off the list.
>>> I can reproduce this behavior flawlessly, and without exception.  Just 
>>> pressing the FN key does NOTHING! So, you can be rude all you want, but I’m 
>>> going to post my experience as there is probably someone else out there who 
>>> experiences the same thing, as I don’t that my Mac is an anomaly.  I don’t 
>>> doubt that your Mac behaves as you describe, but mine, and undoubtedly 
>>> others, do not.  So please don’t dismiss what I write out of hand.
>>> Donna
>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:41 AM, Brad Snyder >>> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Donna,
>>>> You can disagree all you want, but the VO key is not necessary to change 
>>>> the behavior of the arrow keys when using the Fn key.
>>>> 
>>>> - Brad -
>>>> 
>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:11, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Sorry, Brad, but I have to disagree.  When I just press the FN key 
>>>> nothing happens.  When I press the VO modifier, the keys behave as you 
>>>> describe.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Donna
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:27 AM, Bradford Snyder >>>> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Changing the behavior of the arrow keys is not a function of VoiceOver, 
>>>>> therefore it is not necessary to use the VO modifier in order to use the 
>>>>> alternate actions of the arrow keys as described in my original response.
>>>>> You can test this by turning on Keyboard Help, then press the different 
>>>>> arrow keys while holding down only the Fn key.
>>>>> Whether or not the VO modifier is used along with the Fn key makes no 
>>>>> matter.  The actions of the arrow keys will be the same.
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Brad -
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 08:55, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>> >>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Just one addition to this, for me to use these commands, I also have to 
>>>>> hold down the VO keys.  So, VO-FN-right arrow for home, etc.
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Donna
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jan 7, 2023, at 4:59 PM, Bradford Snyder >>>>> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If you hold down the Fn key, the arrow keys become the following:
>>>>>> Left Arrow becomes the Home key.
>>>>>> Right Arrow becomes the End key.
>>>>>> Up Arrow becomes the Page Up key.
>>>>>> Down Arrow becomes the Page Down key.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> HTH.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> - Bra

Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

[Brad Snyder]

Hi Donna,These are all native Mac apps. Behavior may be different with non-native Mac apps.HTH.- Brad -On Jan 8, 2023, at 12:54, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries  wrote:Hi Brad,I can tell you that on my Mac, I see the same behavior in Mail, Text Edit, Pages, and Safari.  So it would appear to be system wide.DonnaOn Jan 8, 2023, at 12:15 PM, Brad Snyder <wb...@swbell.net> wrote:Hello Donna and all,What you are experiencing has to do with the behavior of VoiceOver navigation within a specific application, such as Mail, TextEdit, or  other native Mac applications.This is a separate issue from modifying the behavior of the arrow keys while holding down only the Fn key.- Brad -On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:53, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote:Thanks, Michael and Dave.  Very glad that you can reproduce what I’m seeing. Dave, I’ve used the Mac long enough that I don’t go into keyboard help all that often. What you said about the longer explanation is interesting, I hadn’t stuck around in Help long enough to hear all that.  I think I just figured out the VO thing by experimenting until I found the key combination that worked.Cheers,DonnaOn Jan 8, 2023, at 11:40 AM, Dave Carlson <dgcarlson0...@gmail.com> wrote:I’ve noticed a subtle difference when experimenting in the VO keyboard help mode.With just Fn and the left/right the announcement is Home and end, as reported.However when holding Fn plus VO and pressing left arrow, a moment after saying home it will also announce “Go to beginning, moves the cursor to the beginning” and similar additional information for the right arrow.I think there is a difference in behavior for these two scenarios that may indeed affect how it works inside documents, etc.
Dave CarlsonFarfar, Oregonian, Engineer, Woodworker, Musiciandgcarlson0...@gmail.com

On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:29 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote:Hi Michael,So if I go into keyboard help and press those keys—exactly as you describe—VO does say Home, End etc.  But if I press FN plus an arrow key without the VO modifier while in a document, webpage etc,nothing happens.Cheers,DonnaOn Jan 8, 2023, at 11:23 AM, Michael Babcock <michael@payown.media> wrote:Hi Donna!To verify, when you press and hold FN, while pressing left or right in keyboard help mode with VO+K your saying your computer doesn’t say home or end unless you press the VO keys as well?That is strange, on this MacBook Air, I can do the following steps:1. Press VO+K to enter keyboard help mode2. Press and hold the FN key, bottom left key3. While still pressing FN, press left or right and I hear Home or End respectively.Have a beautiful day.On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:07 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote:Brad,. I am really tired of the obnoxious behavior you display on this list.  Either learn to be civil, or get off the list.I can reproduce this behavior flawlessly, and without exception.  Just pressing the FN key does NOTHING! So, you can be rude all you want, but I’m going to post my experience as there is probably someone else out there who experiences the same thing, as I don’t that my Mac is an anomaly.  I don’t doubt that your Mac behaves as you describe, but mine, and undoubtedly others, do not.  So please don’t dismiss what I write out of hand.DonnaOn Jan 8, 2023, at 10:41 AM, Brad Snyder <wb...@swbell.net> wrote:Hi Donna,You can disagree all you want, but the VO key is not necessary to change the behavior of the arrow keys when using the Fn key.- Brad -On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:11, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote:Sorry, Brad, but I have to disagree.  When I just press the FN key nothing happens.  When I press the VO modifier, the keys behave as you describe.Cheers,DonnaOn Jan 8, 2023, at 9:27 AM, Bradford Snyder <wb...@swbell.net> wrote:Changing the behavior of the arrow keys is not a function of VoiceOver, therefore it is not necessary to use the VO modifier in order to use the alternate actions of the arrow keys as described in my original response.You can test this by turning on Keyboard Help, then press the different arrow keys while holding down only the Fn key.
Whether or not the VO modifier is used along with the Fn key makes no matter.  The actions of the arrow keys will be the same.- Brad -


On Jan 8, 2023, at 08:55, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote:Just one addition to this, for me to use these commands, I also have to hold down the VO keys.  So, VO-FN-right arrow for home, etc.Cheers,DonnaOn Jan 7, 2023, at 4:59 PM, Bradford Snyder <wb...@swbell.net> wrote:If you hold down the Fn key, the arrow keys become the following:Left Arrow becomes the Home key.Right Arrow becomes the End key.Up Arrow becomes the Page Up key.Down Arro

Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

['Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries]

With all due respect, it has to do with the list environment, and therefore 
belongs here.  It is not OK for one member to create an unpleasant list 
environment for others, by criticizing, denigrating, or invalidating others’ 
posts.  We all post things that are for whatever reason not accurate on 
occasion.  That’s inevitable when you have a group of people running several 
different operating systems, and different configurations of those operating 
systems.  In those situations correction is important. But it should be done in 
a way that is constructive, not rude or arrogant.
Donna

> On Jan 8, 2023, at 12:33 PM, 'E.T.' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
>   Do us all a favor and take this off list where it belongs. Personality 
> conflicts are off topic as they have nothing to do with Apple products.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
> "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible
> will make violent revolution inevitable."
> --John F. Kennedy
> My e-Mail:
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> 
> On 1/8/2023 9:07 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries wrote:
>> Brad,. I am really tired of the obnoxious behavior you display on this list. 
>>  Either learn to be civil, or get off the list.
>> I can reproduce this behavior flawlessly, and without exception.  Just 
>> pressing the FN key does NOTHING! So, you can be rude all you want, but I’m 
>> going to post my experience as there is probably someone else out there who 
>> experiences the same thing, as I don’t that my Mac is an anomaly.  I don’t 
>> doubt that your Mac behaves as you describe, but mine, and undoubtedly 
>> others, do not.  So please don’t dismiss what I write out of hand.
>> Donna
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:41 AM, Brad Snyder >> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Donna,
>>> You can disagree all you want, but the VO key is not necessary to change 
>>> the behavior of the arrow keys when using the Fn key.
>>> 
>>> - Brad -
>>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:11, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sorry, Brad, but I have to disagree.  When I just press the FN key nothing 
>>> happens.  When I press the VO modifier, the keys behave as you describe.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Donna
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:27 AM, Bradford Snyder >>> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Changing the behavior of the arrow keys is not a function of VoiceOver, 
>>>> therefore it is not necessary to use the VO modifier in order to use the 
>>>> alternate actions of the arrow keys as described in my original response.
>>>> You can test this by turning on Keyboard Help, then press the different 
>>>> arrow keys while holding down only the Fn key.
>>>> Whether or not the VO modifier is used along with the Fn key makes no 
>>>> matter.  The actions of the arrow keys will be the same.
>>>> 
>>>> - Brad -
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 08:55, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Just one addition to this, for me to use these commands, I also have to 
>>>> hold down the VO keys.  So, VO-FN-right arrow for home, etc.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Donna
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 7, 2023, at 4:59 PM, Bradford Snyder >>>> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you hold down the Fn key, the arrow keys become the following:
>>>>> Left Arrow becomes the Home key.
>>>>> Right Arrow becomes the End key.
>>>>> Up Arrow becomes the Page Up key.
>>>>> Down Arrow becomes the Page Down key.
>>>>> 
>>>>> HTH.
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Brad -
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 7, 2023, at 16:41, Kevin Gibbs >>>> <mailto:kevj...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sometimes, I don’t have my full extended keyboard and have to type on 
>>>>> just my MacBook Pro keyboard.  But I don’t have Page Up/Down or Home and 
>>>>> End keys.  How does one compensate for this?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Kevin
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> The f

Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

['Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries]

Hi Brad,

I can tell you that on my Mac, I see the same behavior in Mail, Text Edit, 
Pages, and Safari.  So it would appear to be system wide.
Donna

> On Jan 8, 2023, at 12:15 PM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> Hello Donna and all,
> 
> What you are experiencing has to do with the behavior of VoiceOver navigation 
> within a specific application, such as Mail, TextEdit, or  other native Mac 
> applications.
> This is a separate issue from modifying the behavior of the arrow keys while 
> holding down only the Fn key.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:53, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thanks, Michael and Dave.  Very glad that you can reproduce what I’m seeing. 
> Dave, I’ve used the Mac long enough that I don’t go into keyboard help all 
> that often. What you said about the longer explanation is interesting, I 
> hadn’t stuck around in Help long enough to hear all that.  I think I just 
> figured out the VO thing by experimenting until I found the key combination 
> that worked.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:40 AM, Dave Carlson > <mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> I’ve noticed a subtle difference when experimenting in the VO keyboard help 
>> mode.
>> 
>> With just Fn and the left/right the announcement is Home and end, as 
>> reported.
>> 
>> However when holding Fn plus VO and pressing left arrow, a moment after 
>> saying home it will also announce “Go to beginning, moves the cursor to the 
>> beginning” and similar additional information for the right arrow.
>> 
>> I think there is a difference in behavior for these two scenarios that may 
>> indeed affect how it works inside documents, etc.
>> 
>> 
>> Dave Carlson
>> Farfar, Oregonian, Engineer, Woodworker, Musician
>> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com <mailto:dgcarlson0...@gmail.com>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:29 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Michael,
>> 
>> So if I go into keyboard help and press those keys—exactly as you 
>> describe—VO does say Home, End etc.  But if I press FN plus an arrow key 
>> without the VO modifier while in a document, webpage etc,nothing happens.
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:23 AM, Michael Babcock >> <mailto:michael@payown.media>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Donna!
>>> 
>>> To verify, when you press and hold FN, while pressing left or right in 
>>> keyboard help mode with VO+K your saying your computer doesn’t say home or 
>>> end unless you press the VO keys as well?
>>> 
>>> That is strange, on this MacBook Air, I can do the following steps:
>>> 
>>> 1. Press VO+K to enter keyboard help mode
>>> 2. Press and hold the FN key, bottom left key
>>> 3. While still pressing FN, press left or right and I hear Home or End 
>>> respectively.
>>> 
>>> Have a beautiful day.
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:07 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Brad,. I am really tired of the obnoxious behavior you display on this 
>>>> list.  Either learn to be civil, or get off the list.
>>>> 
>>>> I can reproduce this behavior flawlessly, and without exception.  Just 
>>>> pressing the FN key does NOTHING! So, you can be rude all you want, but 
>>>> I’m going to post my experience as there is probably someone else out 
>>>> there who experiences the same thing, as I don’t that my Mac is an 
>>>> anomaly.  I don’t doubt that your Mac behaves as you describe, but mine, 
>>>> and undoubtedly others, do not.  So please don’t dismiss what I write out 
>>>> of hand.
>>>> Donna
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:41 AM, Brad Snyder >>>> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Donna,
>>>>> You can disagree all you want, but the VO key is not necessary to change 
>>>>> the behavior of the arrow keys when using the Fn key.
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Brad -
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:11, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>> >>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
>>>>&g

Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

['E.T.' via MacVisionaries]

   Do us all a favor and take this off list where it belongs. 
Personality conflicts are off topic as they have nothing to do with 
Apple products.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible
will make violent revolution inevitable."
 --John F. Kennedy
My e-Mail:
ancient.ali...@icloud.com

On 1/8/2023 9:07 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries wrote:
Brad,. I am really tired of the obnoxious behavior you display on this 
list.  Either learn to be civil, or get off the list.


I can reproduce this behavior flawlessly, and without exception.  Just 
pressing the FN key does NOTHING! So, you can be rude all you want, but 
I’m going to post my experience as there is probably someone else out 
there who experiences the same thing, as I don’t that my Mac is an 
anomaly.  I don’t doubt that your Mac behaves as you describe, but mine, 
and undoubtedly others, do not.  So please don’t dismiss what I write 
out of hand.

Donna

On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:41 AM, Brad Snyder <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:


Hi Donna,
You can disagree all you want, but the VO key is not necessary to 
change the behavior of the arrow keys when using the Fn key.


- Brad -

On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:11, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
<mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


Sorry, Brad, but I have to disagree.  When I just press the FN key 
nothing happens.  When I press the VO modifier, the keys behave as you 
describe.

Cheers,
Donna

On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:27 AM, Bradford Snyder <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:


Changing the behavior of the arrow keys is not a function of 
VoiceOver, therefore it is not necessary to use the VO modifier in 
order to use the alternate actions of the arrow keys as described in 
my original response.
You can test this by turning on Keyboard Help, then press the 
different arrow keys while holding down only the Fn key.
Whether or not the VO modifier is used along with the Fn key makes no 
matter.  The actions of the arrow keys will be the same.


- Brad -



On Jan 8, 2023, at 08:55, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
<mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


Just one addition to this, for me to use these commands, I also have 
to hold down the VO keys.  So, VO-FN-right arrow for home, etc.

Cheers,
Donna

On Jan 7, 2023, at 4:59 PM, Bradford Snyder <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:


If you hold down the Fn key, the arrow keys become the following:
Left Arrow becomes the Home key.
Right Arrow becomes the End key.
Up Arrow becomes the Page Up key.
Down Arrow becomes the Page Down key.

HTH.

- Brad -



On Jan 7, 2023, at 16:41, Kevin Gibbs <mailto:kevj...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Sometimes, I don’t have my full extended keyboard and have to type 
on just my MacBook Pro keyboard.  But I don’t have Page Up/Down or 
Home and End keys.  How does one compensate for this?


Thanks,
Kevin

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Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

[Brad Snyder]

Hello Donna and all,What you are experiencing has to do with the behavior of VoiceOver navigation within a specific application, such as Mail, TextEdit, or  other native Mac applications.This is a separate issue from modifying the behavior of the arrow keys while holding down only the Fn key.- Brad -On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:53, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries  wrote:Thanks, Michael and Dave.  Very glad that you can reproduce what I’m seeing. Dave, I’ve used the Mac long enough that I don’t go into keyboard help all that often. What you said about the longer explanation is interesting, I hadn’t stuck around in Help long enough to hear all that.  I think I just figured out the VO thing by experimenting until I found the key combination that worked.Cheers,DonnaOn Jan 8, 2023, at 11:40 AM, Dave Carlson <dgcarlson0...@gmail.com> wrote:I’ve noticed a subtle difference when experimenting in the VO keyboard help mode.With just Fn and the left/right the announcement is Home and end, as reported.However when holding Fn plus VO and pressing left arrow, a moment after saying home it will also announce “Go to beginning, moves the cursor to the beginning” and similar additional information for the right arrow.I think there is a difference in behavior for these two scenarios that may indeed affect how it works inside documents, etc.
Dave CarlsonFarfar, Oregonian, Engineer, Woodworker, Musiciandgcarlson0...@gmail.com

On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:29 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote:Hi Michael,So if I go into keyboard help and press those keys—exactly as you describe—VO does say Home, End etc.  But if I press FN plus an arrow key without the VO modifier while in a document, webpage etc,nothing happens.Cheers,DonnaOn Jan 8, 2023, at 11:23 AM, Michael Babcock <michael@payown.media> wrote:Hi Donna!To verify, when you press and hold FN, while pressing left or right in keyboard help mode with VO+K your saying your computer doesn’t say home or end unless you press the VO keys as well?That is strange, on this MacBook Air, I can do the following steps:1. Press VO+K to enter keyboard help mode2. Press and hold the FN key, bottom left key3. While still pressing FN, press left or right and I hear Home or End respectively.Have a beautiful day.On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:07 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote:Brad,. I am really tired of the obnoxious behavior you display on this list.  Either learn to be civil, or get off the list.I can reproduce this behavior flawlessly, and without exception.  Just pressing the FN key does NOTHING! So, you can be rude all you want, but I’m going to post my experience as there is probably someone else out there who experiences the same thing, as I don’t that my Mac is an anomaly.  I don’t doubt that your Mac behaves as you describe, but mine, and undoubtedly others, do not.  So please don’t dismiss what I write out of hand.DonnaOn Jan 8, 2023, at 10:41 AM, Brad Snyder <wb...@swbell.net> wrote:Hi Donna,You can disagree all you want, but the VO key is not necessary to change the behavior of the arrow keys when using the Fn key.- Brad -On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:11, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote:Sorry, Brad, but I have to disagree.  When I just press the FN key nothing happens.  When I press the VO modifier, the keys behave as you describe.Cheers,DonnaOn Jan 8, 2023, at 9:27 AM, Bradford Snyder <wb...@swbell.net> wrote:Changing the behavior of the arrow keys is not a function of VoiceOver, therefore it is not necessary to use the VO modifier in order to use the alternate actions of the arrow keys as described in my original response.You can test this by turning on Keyboard Help, then press the different arrow keys while holding down only the Fn key.
Whether or not the VO modifier is used along with the Fn key makes no matter.  The actions of the arrow keys will be the same.- Brad -


On Jan 8, 2023, at 08:55, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote:Just one addition to this, for me to use these commands, I also have to hold down the VO keys.  So, VO-FN-right arrow for home, etc.Cheers,DonnaOn Jan 7, 2023, at 4:59 PM, Bradford Snyder <wb...@swbell.net> wrote:If you hold down the Fn key, the arrow keys become the following:Left Arrow becomes the Home key.Right Arrow becomes the End key.Up Arrow becomes the Page Up key.Down Arrow becomes the Page Down key.HTH.
- Brad -


On Jan 7, 2023, at 16:41, Kevin Gibbs <kevj...@gmail.com> wrote:Sometimes, I don’t have my full extended keyboard and have to type on just my MacBook Pro keyboard.  But I don’t have Page Up/Down or Home and End keys.  How does one compensate for this?Thanks,Kevin-- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list.If you have any questions or concerns abou

Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

['Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries]

Thanks, Michael and Dave.  Very glad that you can reproduce what I’m seeing. 
Dave, I’ve used the Mac long enough that I don’t go into keyboard help all that 
often. What you said about the longer explanation is interesting, I hadn’t 
stuck around in Help long enough to hear all that.  I think I just figured out 
the VO thing by experimenting until I found the key combination that worked.
Cheers,
Donna


> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:40 AM, Dave Carlson  wrote:
> 
> I’ve noticed a subtle difference when experimenting in the VO keyboard help 
> mode.
> 
> With just Fn and the left/right the announcement is Home and end, as reported.
> 
> However when holding Fn plus VO and pressing left arrow, a moment after 
> saying home it will also announce “Go to beginning, moves the cursor to the 
> beginning” and similar additional information for the right arrow.
> 
> I think there is a difference in behavior for these two scenarios that may 
> indeed affect how it works inside documents, etc.
> 
> 
> Dave Carlson
> Farfar, Oregonian, Engineer, Woodworker, Musician
> dgcarlson0...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:29 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Michael,
> 
> So if I go into keyboard help and press those keys—exactly as you describe—VO 
> does say Home, End etc.  But if I press FN plus an arrow key without the VO 
> modifier while in a document, webpage etc,nothing happens.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:23 AM, Michael Babcock > <mailto:michael@payown.media>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Donna!
>> 
>> To verify, when you press and hold FN, while pressing left or right in 
>> keyboard help mode with VO+K your saying your computer doesn’t say home or 
>> end unless you press the VO keys as well?
>> 
>> That is strange, on this MacBook Air, I can do the following steps:
>> 
>> 1. Press VO+K to enter keyboard help mode
>> 2. Press and hold the FN key, bottom left key
>> 3. While still pressing FN, press left or right and I hear Home or End 
>> respectively.
>> 
>> Have a beautiful day.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:07 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Brad,. I am really tired of the obnoxious behavior you display on this 
>>> list.  Either learn to be civil, or get off the list.
>>> 
>>> I can reproduce this behavior flawlessly, and without exception.  Just 
>>> pressing the FN key does NOTHING! So, you can be rude all you want, but I’m 
>>> going to post my experience as there is probably someone else out there who 
>>> experiences the same thing, as I don’t that my Mac is an anomaly.  I don’t 
>>> doubt that your Mac behaves as you describe, but mine, and undoubtedly 
>>> others, do not.  So please don’t dismiss what I write out of hand.
>>> Donna
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:41 AM, Brad Snyder >>> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Donna,
>>>> You can disagree all you want, but the VO key is not necessary to change 
>>>> the behavior of the arrow keys when using the Fn key.
>>>> 
>>>> - Brad -
>>>> 
>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:11, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Sorry, Brad, but I have to disagree.  When I just press the FN key 
>>>> nothing happens.  When I press the VO modifier, the keys behave as you 
>>>> describe.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Donna
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:27 AM, Bradford Snyder >>>> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Changing the behavior of the arrow keys is not a function of VoiceOver, 
>>>>> therefore it is not necessary to use the VO modifier in order to use the 
>>>>> alternate actions of the arrow keys as described in my original response.
>>>>> You can test this by turning on Keyboard Help, then press the different 
>>>>> arrow keys while holding down only the Fn key.
>>>>> Whether or not the VO modifier is used along with the Fn key makes no 
>>>>> matter.  The actions of the arrow keys will be the same.
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Brad -
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 08:55, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisiona

Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

[Dave Carlson]

I’ve noticed a subtle difference when experimenting in the VO keyboard help 
mode.

With just Fn and the left/right the announcement is Home and end, as reported.

However when holding Fn plus VO and pressing left arrow, a moment after saying 
home it will also announce “Go to beginning, moves the cursor to the beginning” 
and similar additional information for the right arrow.

I think there is a difference in behavior for these two scenarios that may 
indeed affect how it works inside documents, etc.


Dave Carlson
Farfar, Oregonian, Engineer, Woodworker, Musician
dgcarlson0...@gmail.com




On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:29 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
 wrote:

Hi Michael,

So if I go into keyboard help and press those keys—exactly as you describe—VO 
does say Home, End etc.  But if I press FN plus an arrow key without the VO 
modifier while in a document, webpage etc,nothing happens.
Cheers,
Donna


> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:23 AM, Michael Babcock  <mailto:michael@payown.media>> wrote:
> 
> Hi Donna!
> 
> To verify, when you press and hold FN, while pressing left or right in 
> keyboard help mode with VO+K your saying your computer doesn’t say home or 
> end unless you press the VO keys as well?
> 
> That is strange, on this MacBook Air, I can do the following steps:
> 
> 1. Press VO+K to enter keyboard help mode
> 2. Press and hold the FN key, bottom left key
> 3. While still pressing FN, press left or right and I hear Home or End 
> respectively.
> 
> Have a beautiful day.
> 
> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:07 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Brad,. I am really tired of the obnoxious behavior you display on this list. 
>>  Either learn to be civil, or get off the list.
>> 
>> I can reproduce this behavior flawlessly, and without exception.  Just 
>> pressing the FN key does NOTHING! So, you can be rude all you want, but I’m 
>> going to post my experience as there is probably someone else out there who 
>> experiences the same thing, as I don’t that my Mac is an anomaly.  I don’t 
>> doubt that your Mac behaves as you describe, but mine, and undoubtedly 
>> others, do not.  So please don’t dismiss what I write out of hand.
>> Donna
>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:41 AM, Brad Snyder >> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Donna,
>>> You can disagree all you want, but the VO key is not necessary to change 
>>> the behavior of the arrow keys when using the Fn key.
>>> 
>>> - Brad -
>>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:11, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sorry, Brad, but I have to disagree.  When I just press the FN key nothing 
>>> happens.  When I press the VO modifier, the keys behave as you describe.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Donna
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:27 AM, Bradford Snyder >>> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Changing the behavior of the arrow keys is not a function of VoiceOver, 
>>>> therefore it is not necessary to use the VO modifier in order to use the 
>>>> alternate actions of the arrow keys as described in my original response.
>>>> You can test this by turning on Keyboard Help, then press the different 
>>>> arrow keys while holding down only the Fn key.
>>>> Whether or not the VO modifier is used along with the Fn key makes no 
>>>> matter.  The actions of the arrow keys will be the same.
>>>> 
>>>> - Brad -
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 08:55, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Just one addition to this, for me to use these commands, I also have to 
>>>> hold down the VO keys.  So, VO-FN-right arrow for home, etc.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Donna
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 7, 2023, at 4:59 PM, Bradford Snyder >>>> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you hold down the Fn key, the arrow keys become the following:
>>>>> Left Arrow becomes the Home key.
>>>>> Right Arrow becomes the End key.
>>>>> Up Arrow becomes the Page Up key.
>>>>> Down Arrow becomes the Page Down key.
>>>>> 
>>>>> HTH.
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Brad -
>>>

Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

[Michael Babcock]

Hi Donna!

OK, I see now!

I can verify that this is the case for me as well.

E.G.

1. Open a email message (this one I’m in now for example)
2. Press fn+left or fn+right
3. Nothing Happens, focus stays in the current position.
4. Press fn+VO+Left or FN+VO+Right will move you to the start or end of an edit 
field.

Thanks for this.


> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:29 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi Michael,
> 
> So if I go into keyboard help and press those keys—exactly as you describe—VO 
> does say Home, End etc.  But if I press FN plus an arrow key without the VO 
> modifier while in a document, webpage etc,nothing happens.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:23 AM, Michael Babcock > <mailto:michael@payown.media>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Donna!
>> 
>> To verify, when you press and hold FN, while pressing left or right in 
>> keyboard help mode with VO+K your saying your computer doesn’t say home or 
>> end unless you press the VO keys as well?
>> 
>> That is strange, on this MacBook Air, I can do the following steps:
>> 
>> 1. Press VO+K to enter keyboard help mode
>> 2. Press and hold the FN key, bottom left key
>> 3. While still pressing FN, press left or right and I hear Home or End 
>> respectively.
>> 
>> Have a beautiful day.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:07 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Brad,. I am really tired of the obnoxious behavior you display on this 
>>> list.  Either learn to be civil, or get off the list.
>>> 
>>> I can reproduce this behavior flawlessly, and without exception.  Just 
>>> pressing the FN key does NOTHING! So, you can be rude all you want, but I’m 
>>> going to post my experience as there is probably someone else out there who 
>>> experiences the same thing, as I don’t that my Mac is an anomaly.  I don’t 
>>> doubt that your Mac behaves as you describe, but mine, and undoubtedly 
>>> others, do not.  So please don’t dismiss what I write out of hand.
>>> Donna
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:41 AM, Brad Snyder >>> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi Donna,
>>>> You can disagree all you want, but the VO key is not necessary to change 
>>>> the behavior of the arrow keys when using the Fn key.
>>>> 
>>>> - Brad -
>>>> 
>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:11, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Sorry, Brad, but I have to disagree.  When I just press the FN key 
>>>> nothing happens.  When I press the VO modifier, the keys behave as you 
>>>> describe.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Donna
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:27 AM, Bradford Snyder >>>> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Changing the behavior of the arrow keys is not a function of VoiceOver, 
>>>>> therefore it is not necessary to use the VO modifier in order to use the 
>>>>> alternate actions of the arrow keys as described in my original response.
>>>>> You can test this by turning on Keyboard Help, then press the different 
>>>>> arrow keys while holding down only the Fn key.
>>>>> Whether or not the VO modifier is used along with the Fn key makes no 
>>>>> matter.  The actions of the arrow keys will be the same.
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Brad -
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 08:55, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>>> >>>> <mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Just one addition to this, for me to use these commands, I also have to 
>>>>> hold down the VO keys.  So, VO-FN-right arrow for home, etc.
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Donna
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jan 7, 2023, at 4:59 PM, Bradford Snyder >>>>> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If you hold down the Fn key, the arrow keys become the following:
>>>>>> Left Arrow becomes the Home key.
>>>>>> Right Arrow becomes the End key.
>>>>>> Up Arrow becomes the Page Up key.
>>>>>> Do

Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

['Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries]

Hi Michael,

So if I go into keyboard help and press those keys—exactly as you describe—VO 
does say Home, End etc.  But if I press FN plus an arrow key without the VO 
modifier while in a document, webpage etc,nothing happens.
Cheers,
Donna


> On Jan 8, 2023, at 11:23 AM, Michael Babcock  wrote:
> 
> Hi Donna!
> 
> To verify, when you press and hold FN, while pressing left or right in 
> keyboard help mode with VO+K your saying your computer doesn’t say home or 
> end unless you press the VO keys as well?
> 
> That is strange, on this MacBook Air, I can do the following steps:
> 
> 1. Press VO+K to enter keyboard help mode
> 2. Press and hold the FN key, bottom left key
> 3. While still pressing FN, press left or right and I hear Home or End 
> respectively.
> 
> Have a beautiful day.
> 
> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:07 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Brad,. I am really tired of the obnoxious behavior you display on this list. 
>>  Either learn to be civil, or get off the list.
>> 
>> I can reproduce this behavior flawlessly, and without exception.  Just 
>> pressing the FN key does NOTHING! So, you can be rude all you want, but I’m 
>> going to post my experience as there is probably someone else out there who 
>> experiences the same thing, as I don’t that my Mac is an anomaly.  I don’t 
>> doubt that your Mac behaves as you describe, but mine, and undoubtedly 
>> others, do not.  So please don’t dismiss what I write out of hand.
>> Donna
>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:41 AM, Brad Snyder >> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Donna,
>>> You can disagree all you want, but the VO key is not necessary to change 
>>> the behavior of the arrow keys when using the Fn key.
>>> 
>>> - Brad -
>>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:11, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sorry, Brad, but I have to disagree.  When I just press the FN key nothing 
>>> happens.  When I press the VO modifier, the keys behave as you describe.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Donna
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:27 AM, Bradford Snyder >>> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Changing the behavior of the arrow keys is not a function of VoiceOver, 
>>>> therefore it is not necessary to use the VO modifier in order to use the 
>>>> alternate actions of the arrow keys as described in my original response.
>>>> You can test this by turning on Keyboard Help, then press the different 
>>>> arrow keys while holding down only the Fn key.
>>>> Whether or not the VO modifier is used along with the Fn key makes no 
>>>> matter.  The actions of the arrow keys will be the same.
>>>> 
>>>> - Brad -
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 08:55, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Just one addition to this, for me to use these commands, I also have to 
>>>> hold down the VO keys.  So, VO-FN-right arrow for home, etc.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Donna
>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 7, 2023, at 4:59 PM, Bradford Snyder >>>> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you hold down the Fn key, the arrow keys become the following:
>>>>> Left Arrow becomes the Home key.
>>>>> Right Arrow becomes the End key.
>>>>> Up Arrow becomes the Page Up key.
>>>>> Down Arrow becomes the Page Down key.
>>>>> 
>>>>> HTH.
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Brad -
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Jan 7, 2023, at 16:41, Kevin Gibbs >>>> <mailto:kevj...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sometimes, I don’t have my full extended keyboard and have to type on 
>>>>> just my MacBook Pro keyboard.  But I don’t have Page Up/Down or Home and 
>>>>> End keys.  How does one compensate for this?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Kevin
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you have any questions or 

Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

[Michael Babcock]

Hi Donna!

To verify, when you press and hold FN, while pressing left or right in keyboard 
help mode with VO+K your saying your computer doesn’t say home or end unless 
you press the VO keys as well?

That is strange, on this MacBook Air, I can do the following steps:

1. Press VO+K to enter keyboard help mode
2. Press and hold the FN key, bottom left key
3. While still pressing FN, press left or right and I hear Home or End 
respectively.

Have a beautiful day.


> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:07 AM, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Brad,. I am really tired of the obnoxious behavior you display on this list.  
> Either learn to be civil, or get off the list.
> 
> I can reproduce this behavior flawlessly, and without exception.  Just 
> pressing the FN key does NOTHING! So, you can be rude all you want, but I’m 
> going to post my experience as there is probably someone else out there who 
> experiences the same thing, as I don’t that my Mac is an anomaly.  I don’t 
> doubt that your Mac behaves as you describe, but mine, and undoubtedly 
> others, do not.  So please don’t dismiss what I write out of hand.
> Donna
> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:41 AM, Brad Snyder > <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Donna,
>> You can disagree all you want, but the VO key is not necessary to change the 
>> behavior of the arrow keys when using the Fn key.
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:11, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Sorry, Brad, but I have to disagree.  When I just press the FN key nothing 
>> happens.  When I press the VO modifier, the keys behave as you describe.
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:27 AM, Bradford Snyder >> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Changing the behavior of the arrow keys is not a function of VoiceOver, 
>>> therefore it is not necessary to use the VO modifier in order to use the 
>>> alternate actions of the arrow keys as described in my original response.
>>> You can test this by turning on Keyboard Help, then press the different 
>>> arrow keys while holding down only the Fn key.
>>> Whether or not the VO modifier is used along with the Fn key makes no 
>>> matter.  The actions of the arrow keys will be the same.
>>> 
>>> - Brad -
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 08:55, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Just one addition to this, for me to use these commands, I also have to 
>>> hold down the VO keys.  So, VO-FN-right arrow for home, etc.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Donna
>>> 
>>>> On Jan 7, 2023, at 4:59 PM, Bradford Snyder >>> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> If you hold down the Fn key, the arrow keys become the following:
>>>> Left Arrow becomes the Home key.
>>>> Right Arrow becomes the End key.
>>>> Up Arrow becomes the Page Up key.
>>>> Down Arrow becomes the Page Down key.
>>>> 
>>>> HTH.
>>>> 
>>>> - Brad -
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Jan 7, 2023, at 16:41, Kevin Gibbs >>> <mailto:kevj...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Sometimes, I don’t have my full extended keyboard and have to type on just 
>>>> my MacBook Pro keyboard.  But I don’t have Page Up/Down or Home and End 
>>>> keys.  How does one compensate for this?
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Kevin
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>>> Visionaries list.
>>>> 
>>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or 
>>>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
>>>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>>> 
>>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark 
>>>> at:  mk...@ucla.edu <mailto:mk...@ucla.edu> and your owner is Cara Quinn - 
>>>> you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com 
>>>> <mailto:caraqu...@caraquinn.com>
>>>> 
>>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>>>> --- 
>&

Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

['Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries]

Brad,. I am really tired of the obnoxious behavior you display on this list.  
Either learn to be civil, or get off the list.

I can reproduce this behavior flawlessly, and without exception.  Just pressing 
the FN key does NOTHING! So, you can be rude all you want, but I’m going to 
post my experience as there is probably someone else out there who experiences 
the same thing, as I don’t that my Mac is an anomaly.  I don’t doubt that your 
Mac behaves as you describe, but mine, and undoubtedly others, do not.  So 
please don’t dismiss what I write out of hand.
Donna

> On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:41 AM, Brad Snyder  wrote:
> 
> Hi Donna,
> You can disagree all you want, but the VO key is not necessary to change the 
> behavior of the arrow keys when using the Fn key.
> 
> - Brad -
> 
> On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:11, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Sorry, Brad, but I have to disagree.  When I just press the FN key nothing 
> happens.  When I press the VO modifier, the keys behave as you describe.
> Cheers,
> Donna
> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 9:27 AM, Bradford Snyder > <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>> 
>> Changing the behavior of the arrow keys is not a function of VoiceOver, 
>> therefore it is not necessary to use the VO modifier in order to use the 
>> alternate actions of the arrow keys as described in my original response.
>> You can test this by turning on Keyboard Help, then press the different 
>> arrow keys while holding down only the Fn key.
>> Whether or not the VO modifier is used along with the Fn key makes no 
>> matter.  The actions of the arrow keys will be the same.
>> 
>> - Brad -
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jan 8, 2023, at 08:55, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries 
>> mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Just one addition to this, for me to use these commands, I also have to hold 
>> down the VO keys.  So, VO-FN-right arrow for home, etc.
>> Cheers,
>> Donna
>> 
>>> On Jan 7, 2023, at 4:59 PM, Bradford Snyder >> <mailto:wb...@swbell.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> If you hold down the Fn key, the arrow keys become the following:
>>> Left Arrow becomes the Home key.
>>> Right Arrow becomes the End key.
>>> Up Arrow becomes the Page Up key.
>>> Down Arrow becomes the Page Down key.
>>> 
>>> HTH.
>>> 
>>> - Brad -
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jan 7, 2023, at 16:41, Kevin Gibbs >> <mailto:kevj...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sometimes, I don’t have my full extended keyboard and have to type on just 
>>> my MacBook Pro keyboard.  But I don’t have Page Up/Down or Home and End 
>>> keys.  How does one compensate for this?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kevin
>>> 
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Re: How does one compensate for PageUp and PageDown keys or Home and End keys on a MacBook Pro without an external full keyboard?

[Brad Snyder]

Hi Donna,You can disagree all you want, but the VO key is not necessary to change the behavior of the arrow keys when using the Fn key.- Brad -On Jan 8, 2023, at 10:11, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries  wrote:Sorry, Brad, but I have to disagree.  When I just press the FN key nothing happens.  When I press the VO modifier, the keys behave as you describe.Cheers,DonnaOn Jan 8, 2023, at 9:27 AM, Bradford Snyder <wb...@swbell.net> wrote:Changing the behavior of the arrow keys is not a function of VoiceOver, therefore it is not necessary to use the VO modifier in order to use the alternate actions of the arrow keys as described in my original response.You can test this by turning on Keyboard Help, then press the different arrow keys while holding down only the Fn key.
Whether or not the VO modifier is used along with the Fn key makes no matter.  The actions of the arrow keys will be the same.- Brad -


On Jan 8, 2023, at 08:55, 'Donna Goodin' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote:Just one addition to this, for me to use these commands, I also have to hold down the VO keys.  So, VO-FN-right arrow for home, etc.Cheers,DonnaOn Jan 7, 2023, at 4:59 PM, Bradford Snyder <wb...@swbell.net> wrote:If you hold down the Fn key, the arrow keys become the following:Left Arrow becomes the Home key.Right Arrow becomes the End key.Up Arrow becomes the Page Up key.Down Arrow becomes the Page Down key.HTH.
- Brad -


On Jan 7, 2023, at 16:41, Kevin Gibbs <kevj...@gmail.com> wrote:Sometimes, I don’t have my full extended keyboard and have to type on just my MacBook Pro keyboard.  But I don’t have Page Up/Down or Home and End keys.  How does one compensate for this?Thanks,Kevin-- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list.If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.comThe archives for this list can be searched at:http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/--- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/F72D326E-BD7A-40A7-A56E-2C79FA7A98B9%40gmail.com.

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