Re: Thank you Tim

[Kevin Chao]

NArrator in WIn10 Anniversary update will work better with Edge/Cortana and
provide scanning mode with orgonomic keybindings, but nothing for system
recovery/restore.

On Tue, Jul 5, 2016 at 7:10 AM Scott Granados  wrote:

> Just to add a little to this, far be it for me to speak in Microsoft’s
> behalf but I think the comments about Microsoft dropping the ball on
> accessibility are a little untrue as I understand them.
>
> First, Microsoft has always been an employer of blind engineers and staff
> so let’s give them some credit there.  I believe there are some Microsoft
> folks on list, I know Apple is represented but I think MS is as well.  If
> not here then certainly on the blind sysadmins list and the android list to
> name a few.
> Next, Microsoft was pressured to not include a viable screen
> reader.  Let’s remember that around the time of the Henter Joyce to Freedom
> Scientific transition Ted Henter paid the NFB a sizable amount of money
> (north of 7 figures) to buy their loyalty.  Almost immediately the NFB
> started protesting on Microsoft’s door against the inclusion of a screen
> reader.  Many hit pieces were written as well as direct on site pressure to
> stop all development.  Microsoft caved (that’s their responsibility) to
> this pressure and stopped development.  Essentially, the NFB’s public
> policy and position was bought off for the purposes of enriching Ted Henter
> and the freedom scientific mob.
> Let’s remember that the NFB wrote similar hit pieces and attempted
> the same action against Apple.  Luckily, Steve was a focused hard you know
> what who did the right thing and dismissed them completely.  We really
> don’t know what if any thing Steve knew about it but we do know that Apple
> did not cave and continued with Voice Over even today.  These hit pieces
> went on and on clearly demonstrating over time the authors hadn’t even used
> a Mac or if they had it was a different screen reader from years earlier.
> All hell broke loose when the iPhone was released and Apple started
> scooping up the blind community.  The flood of hit pieces increased until
> some time later when it was obvious that the NFB’s position was largely
> being ignored outside their circles.  Unfortunately, their circles in
> combination with HJ payoffs have had exclusivity deals in place with many
> state governments and adaptive technology so called experts.  Yet Apple
> persisted and more and more people migrated away from the expensive
> software management agreements and additional cost of screen readers.
> Thankfully also free options on the windows and linux side started to
> evolve and even there Freedom scientific applied legal and strong arm
> tactics to force their product in the market not based on quality but based
> on heavy handed self interest at our community’s expense.  This thankfully
> is starting to fade.  I sincerely hope Martin is right about a decent built
> in screen reader being included as of 08/02/2016.  Not having a built in
> screen reader that has access to the whole product life cycle is a major
> job impediment for our community.  As Simon mentioned it requires sited
> help or other gymnastics to install a version of windows where no such
> limitations exist in the Apple world or Linux world.  If true, this could
> be a real help to folks in the IT space so I hope this is true as I know a
> lot of admins who are held back professionally by this limitation
> So Martin, I share your skepticism about Microsoft and they have
> and continue to do things I have issues with but in this case I don’t think
> they were entirely responsible.  We can argue they shouldn’t have caved but
> it’s understandable why they did.  I just thought it’s worth presenting a
> little of the background for a fair representation of the complex and many
> times ethically challenged history of screen reading technology.  Let the
> bashing continue and here’s hoping the next iteration of narrator is a step
> forward.
>
> I like your line of questioning and balanced responses btw.
>
>
> > On Jul 5, 2016, at 7:47 AM, Martin Brown 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Tim.
> > Thank you for that very constructive email. As I said in my previous
> post, I
> > find the folks on this list very knowledgeable and helpful about all
> things
> > Mac. On  your suggestion about the tab setting in the advanced window of
> > Safari, that is, however, already checked.
> > I am a little surprised to hear that a lot of Mac users prefer the
> grouping
> > method over that of DOM. I mostly use the latter of these methods.
> Indeed, I
> > find the grouping method of navigating a web site such as Amazon.co.uk a
> > little more problematic than using the DOM method. However, since my
> little
> > rant, I have tried the Grouping method on the Soap Kitchen and have found
> > that at least to make the site a lot more usable. At least Voiceover
> didn't
> > go into a tail 

Re: Thank you Tim

[Scott Granados]

Just to add a little to this, far be it for me to speak in Microsoft’s behalf 
but I think the comments about Microsoft dropping the ball on accessibility are 
a little untrue as I understand them.

First, Microsoft has always been an employer of blind engineers and staff so 
let’s give them some credit there.  I believe there are some Microsoft folks on 
list, I know Apple is represented but I think MS is as well.  If not here then 
certainly on the blind sysadmins list and the android list to name a few.
Next, Microsoft was pressured to not include a viable screen reader.  
Let’s remember that around the time of the Henter Joyce to Freedom Scientific 
transition Ted Henter paid the NFB a sizable amount of money (north of 7 
figures) to buy their loyalty.  Almost immediately the NFB started protesting 
on Microsoft’s door against the inclusion of a screen reader.  Many hit pieces 
were written as well as direct on site pressure to stop all development.  
Microsoft caved (that’s their responsibility) to this pressure and stopped 
development.  Essentially, the NFB’s public policy and position was bought off 
for the purposes of enriching Ted Henter and the freedom scientific mob.
Let’s remember that the NFB wrote similar hit pieces and attempted the 
same action against Apple.  Luckily, Steve was a focused hard you know what who 
did the right thing and dismissed them completely.  We really don’t know what 
if any thing Steve knew about it but we do know that Apple did not cave and 
continued with Voice Over even today.  These hit pieces went on and on clearly 
demonstrating over time the authors hadn’t even used a Mac or if they had it 
was a different screen reader from years earlier.  All hell broke loose when 
the iPhone was released and Apple started scooping up the blind community.  The 
flood of hit pieces increased until some time later when it was obvious that 
the NFB’s position was largely being ignored outside their circles.  
Unfortunately, their circles in combination with HJ payoffs have had 
exclusivity deals in place with many state governments and adaptive technology 
so called experts.  Yet Apple persisted and more and more people migrated away 
from the expensive software management agreements and additional cost of screen 
readers.  Thankfully also free options on the windows and linux side started to 
evolve and even there Freedom scientific applied legal and strong arm tactics 
to force their product in the market not based on quality but based on heavy 
handed self interest at our community’s expense.  This thankfully is starting 
to fade.  I sincerely hope Martin is right about a decent built in screen 
reader being included as of 08/02/2016.  Not having a built in screen reader 
that has access to the whole product life cycle is a major job impediment for 
our community.  As Simon mentioned it requires sited help or other gymnastics 
to install a version of windows where no such limitations exist in the Apple 
world or Linux world.  If true, this could be a real help to folks in the IT 
space so I hope this is true as I know a lot of admins who are held back 
professionally by this limitation
So Martin, I share your skepticism about Microsoft and they have and 
continue to do things I have issues with but in this case I don’t think they 
were entirely responsible.  We can argue they shouldn’t have caved but it’s 
understandable why they did.  I just thought it’s worth presenting a little of 
the background for a fair representation of the complex and many times 
ethically challenged history of screen reading technology.  Let the bashing 
continue and here’s hoping the next iteration of narrator is a step forward.

I like your line of questioning and balanced responses btw.


> On Jul 5, 2016, at 7:47 AM, Martin Brown  wrote:
> 
> Hello Tim.
> Thank you for that very constructive email. As I said in my previous post, I
> find the folks on this list very knowledgeable and helpful about all things
> Mac. On  your suggestion about the tab setting in the advanced window of
> Safari, that is, however, already checked.
> I am a little surprised to hear that a lot of Mac users prefer the grouping
> method over that of DOM. I mostly use the latter of these methods. Indeed, I
> find the grouping method of navigating a web site such as Amazon.co.uk a
> little more problematic than using the DOM method. However, since my little
> rant, I have tried the Grouping method on the Soap Kitchen and have found
> that at least to make the site a lot more usable. At least Voiceover didn't
> go into a tail spin. On the point about deleting bookmarks...well what can I
> say Tim, my own stupidity on that one. It should have been obvious as it is
> a similar method on the Windows platform.
> 
> On your points about just how committed Apple is to making continuous
> improvements to their screen reader, I sincerely hope you are right. It
> would be a shame to 

Thank you Tim

[Martin Brown]

Hello Tim.
Thank you for that very constructive email. As I said in my previous post, I
find the folks on this list very knowledgeable and helpful about all things
Mac. On  your suggestion about the tab setting in the advanced window of
Safari, that is, however, already checked.
I am a little surprised to hear that a lot of Mac users prefer the grouping
method over that of DOM. I mostly use the latter of these methods. Indeed, I
find the grouping method of navigating a web site such as Amazon.co.uk a
little more problematic than using the DOM method. However, since my little
rant, I have tried the Grouping method on the Soap Kitchen and have found
that at least to make the site a lot more usable. At least Voiceover didn't
go into a tail spin. On the point about deleting bookmarks...well what can I
say Tim, my own stupidity on that one. It should have been obvious as it is
a similar method on the Windows platform. 

On your points about just how committed Apple is to making continuous
improvements to their screen reader, I sincerely hope you are right. It
would be a shame to let what has already been achieved become only something
recalled in the history books. So far, Microsoft's efforts on behalf of its
disabled customers is pitiful in contrast. I have been informed that on the
second of August 2016 we are to get a substantial upgrade to Narrator, the
Microsoft native screen reader. I just can't wait for that non-event to
happen. The thrill of it all is likely to give me multiple cerebral orgasms
of a sufficient magnitude to make my ears pop big time.
Respectfully Yours:
Martin


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