Re: an update on my Big Sur experience

['Jason White' via MacVisionaries]

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201236 On 12/23/20, 14:17, "macvisionaries@googlegroups.com"  wrote:Where on earth did you discover that key command?  On 12/23/2020 11:04 AM, Jürgen Fleger wrote:> Use CTRL + CMD + Shift + t to add elements like programs to the Dock. Open elements from the Dock works like you are used to.> > >> Am 23.12.2020 um 16:21 schrieb Mike Arrigo :>> >> So, after playing with the new operating system a bit more, I'm going to stick with it rather than going back to Catalina although I still think that Apple has taken several steps backward with this new OS. I figure there's no point going back to an old operating system even if it's a bit easier for some things.>> I do hope Apple fixes the bug with using the dock, but I have an acceptable work around for that. I prefer not to open the applications folder every time I want to open an app which is what I used the dock for. Since this is currently not possible, I have made aliases for the applications I use the most and put them on my desktop.>> Regarding the messages application, I think I have found what I would consider to be a major voiceover bug and it's one reason I was having so much trouble with the app. Voiceover has a setting that determines how groups are handled, I usually use the bookend groups option since this eliminates the need to interact with items as much. This setting does not currently work with the messages app. Basically the new messages app has two sections, the conversations list and to the right of that is the area where the selected conversation is displayed. If you use one of the other voiceover group settings besides standard, once you move in to one of these areas, voiceover will get stuck there and you cannot get out of this section and go to the other one. Since I usually use the bookend groups setting, I created an activity for the messages app that switches to the standard setting instead. Unlike the messages app in Catalina, you can no longer use just the arrow keys to select a conversation, you must interact with the conversations list and use voiceover to select the conversation you want. Also, when opening the context menu for a conversation, you must use the voiceover up and down commands to move through the menu, using the regular arrow keys will not work.>> I've also found an odd issue with the notification center, in previous operating systems, when an application requested to use the notification center, the prompt would appear and there were buttons to allow or deny the request. With Big Sur, either those buttons do not appear or Voiceover does not see them. You have to press VO+command+space to open the actions menu to respond to the notification.>> I really hope Apple fixes some of these issues, I would consider some of them to be major.>> >> -- >> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list.>> >> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.>> >> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com>> >> The archives for this list can be searched at:>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group.>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.>> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/3ab697a4.3364.4694.b277.4bcb483b4776%40samobile.net.>>  -- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at:http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/--- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group.To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/b3ce5266-e911-c679-593b-0b5cf656d2ab%40noisynotescom. 



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Re: an update on my Big Sur experience

[Mike Arrigo]

Yes, opening an app from the dock works fine, the issue is opening the 
context menu for a dock item in order to add or remove it from the 
dock, that currently does not work.

Original message:
Things may work differently on the Intel Macs as opposed to the new M1 
Macs, but Mike I am still able to open an app from the dock with 
VO+spacebar. I am unable to access the menu from the dock to get to the 
open command.



The VO command does open the app, however.


I agree that there are some serious bug issues, but I do believe we 
have to try and move forward and just keep pressure on Apple to fix the 
problems.



Larry W. Honaker



kc8...@icloud.com



Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
(Psalm 119:105 KJV)




On Dec 23, 2020, at 10:21 AM, Mike Arrigo  wrote:


So, after playing with the new operating system a bit more, I'm going 
to stick with it rather than going back to Catalina although I still 
think that Apple has taken several steps backward with this new OS. I 
figure there's no point going back to an old operating system even if 
it's a bit easier for some things.
I do hope Apple fixes the bug with using the dock, but I have an 
acceptable work around for that. I prefer not to open the applications 
folder every time I want to open an app which is what I used the dock 
for. Since this is currently not possible, I have made aliases for the 
applications I use the most and put them on my desktop.
Regarding the messages application, I think I have found what I would 
consider to be a major voiceover bug and it's one reason I was having 
so much trouble with the app. Voiceover has a setting that determines 
how groups are handled, I usually use the bookend groups option since 
this eliminates the need to interact with items as much. This setting 
does not currently work with the messages app. Basically the new 
messages app has two sections, the conversations list and to the right 
of that is the area where the selected conversation is displayed. If 
you use one of the other voiceover group settings besides standard, 
once you move in to one of these areas, voiceover will get stuck there 
and you cannot get out of this section and go to the other one. Since I 
usually use the bookend groups setting, I created an activity for the 
messages app that switches to the standard setting instead. Unlike the 
messages app in Catalina, you can no longer use just the arrow keys to 
select a conversation, you must interact with the conversations list 
and use voiceover to select the conversation you want. Also, when 
opening the context menu for a conversation, you must use the voiceover 
up and down commands to move through the menu, using the regular arrow 
keys will not work.
I've also found an odd issue with the notification center, in previous 
operating systems, when an application requested to use the 
notification center, the prompt would appear and there were buttons to 
allow or deny the request. With Big Sur, either those buttons do not 
appear or Voiceover does not see them. You have to press 
VO+command+space to open the actions menu to respond to the notification.
I really hope Apple fixes some of these issues, I would consider some 
of them to be major.



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Re: an update on my Big Sur experience

[Steve Matzura]

Where on earth did you discover that key command?


On 12/23/2020 11:04 AM, Jürgen Fleger wrote:

Use CTRL + CMD + Shift + t to add elements like programs to the Dock. Open 
elements from the Dock works like you are used to.



Am 23.12.2020 um 16:21 schrieb Mike Arrigo :

So, after playing with the new operating system a bit more, I'm going to stick 
with it rather than going back to Catalina although I still think that Apple 
has taken several steps backward with this new OS. I figure there's no point 
going back to an old operating system even if it's a bit easier for some things.
I do hope Apple fixes the bug with using the dock, but I have an acceptable 
work around for that. I prefer not to open the applications folder every time I 
want to open an app which is what I used the dock for. Since this is currently 
not possible, I have made aliases for the applications I use the most and put 
them on my desktop.
Regarding the messages application, I think I have found what I would consider 
to be a major voiceover bug and it's one reason I was having so much trouble 
with the app. Voiceover has a setting that determines how groups are handled, I 
usually use the bookend groups option since this eliminates the need to 
interact with items as much. This setting does not currently work with the 
messages app. Basically the new messages app has two sections, the 
conversations list and to the right of that is the area where the selected 
conversation is displayed. If you use one of the other voiceover group settings 
besides standard, once you move in to one of these areas, voiceover will get 
stuck there and you cannot get out of this section and go to the other one. 
Since I usually use the bookend groups setting, I created an activity for the 
messages app that switches to the standard setting instead. Unlike the messages 
app in Catalina, you can no longer use just the arrow keys to select a 
conversation, you must interact with the conversations list and use voiceover 
to select the conversation you want. Also, when opening the context menu for a 
conversation, you must use the voiceover up and down commands to move through 
the menu, using the regular arrow keys will not work.
I've also found an odd issue with the notification center, in previous 
operating systems, when an application requested to use the notification 
center, the prompt would appear and there were buttons to allow or deny the 
request. With Big Sur, either those buttons do not appear or Voiceover does not 
see them. You have to press VO+command+space to open the actions menu to 
respond to the notification.
I really hope Apple fixes some of these issues, I would consider some of them 
to be major.

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Re: an update on my Big Sur experience

[Steve Matzura]

I'm so glad to read these comments from you, Mike, as I've found all of 
them myself before I read your post and thought maybe I was doing 
something wrong. I haven't gone as far as you did with Messages and 
making application aliases and putting them on the desktop, but I just 
might. Thanks for making me really feel like I know what I'm doing (LOL) 
which I often don't--know what I'm doing, that is!



On 12/23/2020 10:21 AM, Mike Arrigo wrote:
So, after playing with the new operating system a bit more, I'm going 
to stick with it rather than going back to Catalina although I still 
think that Apple has taken several steps backward with this new OS. I 
figure there's no point going back to an old operating system even if 
it's a bit easier for some things.
I do hope Apple fixes the bug with using the dock, but I have an 
acceptable work around for that. I prefer not to open the applications 
folder every time I want to open an app which is what I used the dock 
for. Since this is currently not possible, I have made aliases for the 
applications I use the most and put them on my desktop.
Regarding the messages application, I think I have found what I would 
consider to be a major voiceover bug and it's one reason I was having 
so much trouble with the app. Voiceover has a setting that determines 
how groups are handled, I usually use the bookend groups option since 
this eliminates the need to interact with items as much. This setting 
does not currently work with the messages app. Basically the new 
messages app has two sections, the conversations list and to the right 
of that is the area where the selected conversation is displayed. If 
you use one of the other voiceover group settings besides standard, 
once you move in to one of these areas, voiceover will get stuck there 
and you cannot get out of this section and go to the other one. Since 
I usually use the bookend groups setting, I created an activity for 
the messages app that switches to the standard setting instead. Unlike 
the messages app in Catalina, you can no longer use just the arrow 
keys to select a conversation, you must interact with the 
conversations list and use voiceover to select the conversation you 
want. Also, when opening the context menu for a conversation, you must 
use the voiceover up and down commands to move through the menu, using 
the regular arrow keys will not work.
I've also found an odd issue with the notification center, in previous 
operating systems, when an application requested to use the 
notification center, the prompt would appear and there were buttons to 
allow or deny the request. With Big Sur, either those buttons do not 
appear or Voiceover does not see them. You have to press 
VO+command+space to open the actions menu to respond to the notification.
I really hope Apple fixes some of these issues, I would consider some 
of them to be major.




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feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
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Re: an update on my Big Sur experience

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
Yes I hope so too.
If we all report these issues to accessibility then they hopefully get fixed.
/A

> 23 dec. 2020 kl. 16:21 skrev Mike Arrigo :
> 
> So, after playing with the new operating system a bit more, I'm going to 
> stick with it rather than going back to Catalina although I still think that 
> Apple has taken several steps backward with this new OS. I figure there's no 
> point going back to an old operating system even if it's a bit easier for 
> some things.
> I do hope Apple fixes the bug with using the dock, but I have an acceptable 
> work around for that. I prefer not to open the applications folder every time 
> I want to open an app which is what I used the dock for. Since this is 
> currently not possible, I have made aliases for the applications I use the 
> most and put them on my desktop.
> Regarding the messages application, I think I have found what I would 
> consider to be a major voiceover bug and it's one reason I was having so much 
> trouble with the app. Voiceover has a setting that determines how groups are 
> handled, I usually use the bookend groups option since this eliminates the 
> need to interact with items as much. This setting does not currently work 
> with the messages app. Basically the new messages app has two sections, the 
> conversations list and to the right of that is the area where the selected 
> conversation is displayed. If you use one of the other voiceover group 
> settings besides standard, once you move in to one of these areas, voiceover 
> will get stuck there and you cannot get out of this section and go to the 
> other one. Since I usually use the bookend groups setting, I created an 
> activity for the messages app that switches to the standard setting instead. 
> Unlike the messages app in Catalina, you can no longer use just the arrow 
> keys to select a conversation, you must interact with the conversations list 
> and use voiceover to select the conversation you want. Also, when opening the 
> context menu for a conversation, you must use the voiceover up and down 
> commands to move through the menu, using the regular arrow keys will not work.
> I've also found an odd issue with the notification center, in previous 
> operating systems, when an application requested to use the notification 
> center, the prompt would appear and there were buttons to allow or deny the 
> request. With Big Sur, either those buttons do not appear or Voiceover does 
> not see them. You have to press VO+command+space to open the actions menu to 
> respond to the notification.
> I really hope Apple fixes some of these issues, I would consider some of them 
> to be major.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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> "MacVisionaries" group.
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caraqu...@caraquinn.com

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Re: an update on my Big Sur experience

[Jürgen Fleger]

Use CTRL + CMD + Shift + t to add elements like programs to the Dock. Open 
elements from the Dock works like you are used to.


> Am 23.12.2020 um 16:21 schrieb Mike Arrigo :
> 
> So, after playing with the new operating system a bit more, I'm going to 
> stick with it rather than going back to Catalina although I still think that 
> Apple has taken several steps backward with this new OS. I figure there's no 
> point going back to an old operating system even if it's a bit easier for 
> some things.
> I do hope Apple fixes the bug with using the dock, but I have an acceptable 
> work around for that. I prefer not to open the applications folder every time 
> I want to open an app which is what I used the dock for. Since this is 
> currently not possible, I have made aliases for the applications I use the 
> most and put them on my desktop.
> Regarding the messages application, I think I have found what I would 
> consider to be a major voiceover bug and it's one reason I was having so much 
> trouble with the app. Voiceover has a setting that determines how groups are 
> handled, I usually use the bookend groups option since this eliminates the 
> need to interact with items as much. This setting does not currently work 
> with the messages app. Basically the new messages app has two sections, the 
> conversations list and to the right of that is the area where the selected 
> conversation is displayed. If you use one of the other voiceover group 
> settings besides standard, once you move in to one of these areas, voiceover 
> will get stuck there and you cannot get out of this section and go to the 
> other one. Since I usually use the bookend groups setting, I created an 
> activity for the messages app that switches to the standard setting instead. 
> Unlike the messages app in Catalina, you can no longer use just the arrow 
> keys to select a conversation, you must interact with the conversations list 
> and use voiceover to select the conversation you want. Also, when opening the 
> context menu for a conversation, you must use the voiceover up and down 
> commands to move through the menu, using the regular arrow keys will not work.
> I've also found an odd issue with the notification center, in previous 
> operating systems, when an application requested to use the notification 
> center, the prompt would appear and there were buttons to allow or deny the 
> request. With Big Sur, either those buttons do not appear or Voiceover does 
> not see them. You have to press VO+command+space to open the actions menu to 
> respond to the notification.
> I really hope Apple fixes some of these issues, I would consider some of them 
> to be major.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor.  You can reach mark at:  
> mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at 
> caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
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> 

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Re: an update on my Big Sur experience

['Larry Honaker' via MacVisionaries]

Things may work differently on the Intel Macs as opposed to the new M1 Macs, 
but Mike I am still able to open an app from the dock with VO+spacebar. I am 
unable to access the menu from the dock to get to the open command.

The VO command does open the app, however.

I agree that there are some serious bug issues, but I do believe we have to try 
and move forward and just keep pressure on Apple to fix the problems.

Larry W. Honaker

kc8...@icloud.com

Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path. 
(Psalm 119:105 KJV)


> On Dec 23, 2020, at 10:21 AM, Mike Arrigo  wrote:
> 
> So, after playing with the new operating system a bit more, I'm going to 
> stick with it rather than going back to Catalina although I still think that 
> Apple has taken several steps backward with this new OS. I figure there's no 
> point going back to an old operating system even if it's a bit easier for 
> some things.
> I do hope Apple fixes the bug with using the dock, but I have an acceptable 
> work around for that. I prefer not to open the applications folder every time 
> I want to open an app which is what I used the dock for. Since this is 
> currently not possible, I have made aliases for the applications I use the 
> most and put them on my desktop.
> Regarding the messages application, I think I have found what I would 
> consider to be a major voiceover bug and it's one reason I was having so much 
> trouble with the app. Voiceover has a setting that determines how groups are 
> handled, I usually use the bookend groups option since this eliminates the 
> need to interact with items as much. This setting does not currently work 
> with the messages app. Basically the new messages app has two sections, the 
> conversations list and to the right of that is the area where the selected 
> conversation is displayed. If you use one of the other voiceover group 
> settings besides standard, once you move in to one of these areas, voiceover 
> will get stuck there and you cannot get out of this section and go to the 
> other one. Since I usually use the bookend groups setting, I created an 
> activity for the messages app that switches to the standard setting instead. 
> Unlike the messages app in Catalina, you can no longer use just the arrow 
> keys to select a conversation, you must interact with the conversations list 
> and use voiceover to select the conversation you want. Also, when opening the 
> context menu for a conversation, you must use the voiceover up and down 
> commands to move through the menu, using the regular arrow keys will not work.
> I've also found an odd issue with the notification center, in previous 
> operating systems, when an application requested to use the notification 
> center, the prompt would appear and there were buttons to allow or deny the 
> request. With Big Sur, either those buttons do not appear or Voiceover does 
> not see them. You have to press VO+command+space to open the actions menu to 
> respond to the notification.
> I really hope Apple fixes some of these issues, I would consider some of them 
> to be major.
> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
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an update on my Big Sur experience

[Mike Arrigo]

So, after playing with the new operating system a bit more, I'm going 
to stick with it rather than going back to Catalina although I still 
think that Apple has taken several steps backward with this new OS. I 
figure there's no point going back to an old operating system even if 
it's a bit easier for some things.
I do hope Apple fixes the bug with using the dock, but I have an 
acceptable work around for that. I prefer not to open the applications 
folder every time I want to open an app which is what I used the dock 
for. Since this is currently not possible, I have made aliases for the 
applications I use the most and put them on my desktop.
Regarding the messages application, I think I have found what I would 
consider to be a major voiceover bug and it's one reason I was having 
so much trouble with the app. Voiceover has a setting that determines 
how groups are handled, I usually use the bookend groups option since 
this eliminates the need to interact with items as much. This setting 
does not currently work with the messages app. Basically the new 
messages app has two sections, the conversations list and to the right 
of that is the area where the selected conversation is displayed. If 
you use one of the other voiceover group settings besides standard, 
once you move in to one of these areas, voiceover will get stuck there 
and you cannot get out of this section and go to the other one. Since I 
usually use the bookend groups setting, I created an activity for the 
messages app that switches to the standard setting instead. Unlike the 
messages app in Catalina, you can no longer use just the arrow keys to 
select a conversation, you must interact with the conversations list 
and use voiceover to select the conversation you want. Also, when 
opening the context menu for a conversation, you must use the voiceover 
up and down commands to move through the menu, using the regular arrow 
keys will not work.
I've also found an odd issue with the notification center, in previous 
operating systems, when an application requested to use the 
notification center, the prompt would appear and there were buttons to 
allow or deny the request. With Big Sur, either those buttons do not 
appear or Voiceover does not see them. You have to press 
VO+command+space to open the actions menu to respond to the notification.
I really hope Apple fixes some of these issues, I would consider some 
of them to be major.


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