Re: in public defense of those who beta test Apple software

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
Totally agree with scot here.
What are people afraid of?
/A
> On 16 Sep 2016, at 13:52, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Ray, nice try but I’ll believe the legal department of Fidelity way before 
> your assessment.  I was advised by my own legal team as well as my employer’s 
> legal team that discussion of the public beta was fine.  How much law school 
> do you have?
> 
> Full stop!
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:15 PM, Ray Foret jr > > wrote:
>> 
>> I may have only tested the public betas, but, I’m totally going to stand for 
>> Chris and the other Devs here who were always one step ahead of me.  IF not 
>> for their pioneering work on all this. what we have now might:  and indeed 
>> would be, much much more seriously flawed.  I think we who tested the public 
>> betas have something to say to this also, for you see, I was one of them and 
>> continue to be.  Now, I want to say something else that I feel is in 
>> connection with all this.  Some say we who test the public betas can in fact 
>> discuss what we find in public before the final release.  You could not be 
>> more in error!!!  Obviously, you don’t know what you are  talking about.  
>> Have you bothered to read the terms of agreement that all beta testers, (dev 
>> and public alike) must agree to?  No?  Well, permit me to summarize them for 
>> you.  We cannot say a thing about what we are finding.  We’re strictly 
>> forbidden to show you non testers in any way what it is we are working on.  
>> If you think you have so much to say, you either pay the developer fee or 
>> test the public beta.  Until then, shut up!  I’m coming out here in such 
>> strong defense of dev and public beta testers because I have gone through 
>> just about an entire summer of putting up with idiotic fools whoo have NO 
>> respect for non disclosure agreements and the seriousness with which such 
>> things MUST be taken.  True, not everyone on this list is like that:  in 
>> fact, I suspect that most on this particular list understand my point of 
>> view on this matter.  But on VORail, (yes I am being specific about the 
>> place where most of this stupidity lives) it seemed to reign supreme.  I’m 
>> sure I speak for Chris and the other devs and for the other public beta 
>> testers here when I say that when we say we cannot discuss something, you’d 
>> damn well better take us seriously because we damn well take Apple’s non 
>> disclosure agreements very very seriously.  If stupid sighted people on 
>> podcasts can’t be bother to take such things seriously and go  blabbing 
>> about what they find, that’s their problem.  Also, frankly, it’s not much 
>> help to us if Apple doesn’t enforce their own non disclosure agreements.  
>> Well, let the rest blab if they want to:  I, for my part, will NOT.  
>> Sent from my Mac, The only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
>> built-in
>> 
>> Sincerely, The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>> Still a very happy Mac, Verizon Wireless iPhone6+ and Apple TV user!
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 8:26 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland 
>>> mailto:clgillan...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Excuse me, Cheree.  that was profoundly disrespectful, not to mention 
>>> downright insulting to us devs, me being one of them.  Let me tell you 
>>> something.  We devs did! try getting on Apple about stuff like this.  I did 
>>> so in iOS 9, and I even more so did in this iOS 10 update beta cycle.  
>>> Trust me.  I was on the 10 beta from June 30th, when it was announced at 
>>> WWDC until now.  I've ever since had at least one of my devices on 10.
>>>  
>>> I've reported bug after bug after bug to them.  I've worked countless hours 
>>> to the sweat of my brow! trying to explain these things to them, but no 
>>> sollution was ever made.  So don't be putting the blame on us devs, OK?  
>>> We've done our damdest! to make this new version of OSX, TVOS, Watch OS, 
>>> and iOS as  wonderful as possible.  The thing is, once we make the bug 
>>> reports through the bugreporter bug tracker, we really don't then have much 
>>> of a say past that point.  If Apple fixes it, great, if not, well, we've 
>>> done our parts by reporting it.
>>>  
>>> Now, if us devs just saw the bug and ignored it, then therefore it was 
>>> released buggy, then, I'd totally give this message to you, but, hunttauhh. 
>>>  I'm not lettin' you have this.  I'm sorry.  Us devs deserve more credit, 
>>> and respect!  We really, really really did try!
>>>  
>>> Can another person on this list who's a dev and paid the 99 for the iOS 10 
>>> cycle please speak up and advocate for us all here as well?  This is just 
>>> wrong!
>>> ---
>>> Christopher Gilland
>>> JAWS Certified, 2016.
>>> Training Instructor.
>>>  
>>> i...@gillandmarketing.com 
>>> Phone: (704) 256-8010.
 - Original Message - 
 From: Cheree Heppe 
 To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
 

Re: in public defense of those who beta test Apple software

[Danny Noonan]

Mail for me is now so much better. Reading threads is a smooth one handed 
option and I'm not even quite so upset about 3 finger tap for preview. That 
breaks the one hand option but still. Bring back hints preview for me and keep 
3 finger tap as well so when I turn off hints in a fit of rage when apple add 
oral hints adds in iOS 15. 
I wait until I decide on changes or i'de always be cranky boy. 

Danny

Sent from my iPhone

> On 17 Sep. 2016, at 6:23 am, Phil Halton  wrote:
> 
> I'm the one who originally complained about the changes in mail app but now 
> that I've had a chance to work with it, and have found the messages router 
> feature as well as the ability to unpack the thread, I really like the what 
> they've done with it.
> 
> Sent from my IPhone
> 
> 
>> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:34 PM, christopher hallsworth 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Can I speak up here as well?
>> 
>> I beta tested iOS 10 right from the very beginning, developer beta 1. How it 
>> was, Apple Developer Relations contacted me over a bug report I sent two 
>> years ago. Yes, two years ago. It was in relation to Braille Screen Input 
>> and contracted Braille. I reported then that there was absolutely no typing 
>> feedback when switching to contracted Braille input. After assuring me that 
>> they were looking for ideas, they finally told me that character feedback 
>> was turned off in all cases, and it was released like that. I was 
>> disappointed, but thought “hey, at least I tried”. So you can imagine the 
>> shock I felt when receiving that. So thought “hey, let’s check this out and 
>> see what I think?” And wow, it was amazing to see they finally added typing 
>> feedback to contracted Braille input. Since I was generally happy with the 
>> implementation, I simply replied to the report and resolving the bug report. 
>> Future betas of iOS 10 I saw small, but significant, changes, which were for 
>> the better. I’m not going to say the changes here, since even the public 
>> beta testers never saw them. They got changed probably in developer beta 2 
>> at least.
>> 
>> So please, give us credit where it’s due of course, and don’t blame it all 
>> on Apple. Thank you.
>> 
>> 
>>> On 16 Sep 2016, at 03:15, Ray Foret jr  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I may have only tested the public betas, but, I’m totally going to stand 
>>> for Chris and the other Devs here who were always one step ahead of me.  IF 
>>> not for their pioneering work on all this. what we have now might:  and 
>>> indeed would be, much much more seriously flawed.  I think we who tested 
>>> the public betas have something to say to this also, for you see, I was one 
>>> of them and continue to be.  Now, I want to say something else that I feel 
>>> is in connection with all this.  Some say we who test the public betas can 
>>> in fact discuss what we find in public before the final release.  You could 
>>> not be more in error!!!  Obviously, you don’t know what you are  talking 
>>> about.  Have you bothered to read the terms of agreement that all beta 
>>> testers, (dev and public alike) must agree to?  No?  Well, permit me to 
>>> summarize them for you.  We cannot say a thing about what we are finding.  
>>> We’re strictly forbidden to show you non testers in any way what it is we 
>>> are working on.  If you think you have so much to say, you either pay the 
>>> developer fee or test the public beta.  Until then, shut up!  I’m 
>>> coming out here in such strong defense of dev and public beta testers 
>>> because I have gone through just about an entire summer of putting up with 
>>> idiotic fools whoo have NO respect for non disclosure agreements and the 
>>> seriousness with which such things MUST be taken.  True, not everyone on 
>>> this list is like that:  in fact, I suspect that most on this particular 
>>> list understand my point of view on this matter.  But on VORail, (yes I am 
>>> being specific about the place where most of this stupidity lives) it 
>>> seemed to reign supreme.  I’m sure I speak for Chris and the other devs and 
>>> for the other public beta testers here when I say that when we say we 
>>> cannot discuss something, you’d damn well better take us seriously because 
>>> we damn well take Apple’s non disclosure agreements very very seriously.  
>>> If stupid sighted people on podcasts can’t be bother to take such things 
>>> seriously and go  blabbing about what they find, that’s their problem.  
>>> Also, frankly, it’s not much help to us if Apple doesn’t enforce their own 
>>> non disclosure agreements.  Well, let the rest blab if they want to:  I, 
>>> for my part, will NOT.  
>>> Sent from my Mac, The only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
>>> built-in
>>> 
>>> Sincerely, The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>>> Still a very happy Mac, Verizon Wireless iPhone6+ and Apple TV user!
>>> 
 On Sep 15, 2016, at 8:26 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland 
  wrote:
 
 Excuse me, Cheree.  that was profoundly disrespectful, not to m

Re: in public defense of those who beta test Apple software

[Phil Halton]

I'm the one who originally complained about the changes in mail app but now 
that I've had a chance to work with it, and have found the messages router 
feature as well as the ability to unpack the thread, I really like the what 
they've done with it.

Sent from my IPhone


> On Sep 16, 2016, at 3:34 PM, christopher hallsworth  
> wrote:
> 
> Can I speak up here as well?
> 
> I beta tested iOS 10 right from the very beginning, developer beta 1. How it 
> was, Apple Developer Relations contacted me over a bug report I sent two 
> years ago. Yes, two years ago. It was in relation to Braille Screen Input and 
> contracted Braille. I reported then that there was absolutely no typing 
> feedback when switching to contracted Braille input. After assuring me that 
> they were looking for ideas, they finally told me that character feedback was 
> turned off in all cases, and it was released like that. I was disappointed, 
> but thought “hey, at least I tried”. So you can imagine the shock I felt when 
> receiving that. So thought “hey, let’s check this out and see what I think?” 
> And wow, it was amazing to see they finally added typing feedback to 
> contracted Braille input. Since I was generally happy with the 
> implementation, I simply replied to the report and resolving the bug report. 
> Future betas of iOS 10 I saw small, but significant, changes, which were for 
> the better. I’m not going to say the changes here, since even the public beta 
> testers never saw them. They got changed probably in developer beta 2 at 
> least.
> 
> So please, give us credit where it’s due of course, and don’t blame it all on 
> Apple. Thank you.
> 
> 
>> On 16 Sep 2016, at 03:15, Ray Foret jr  wrote:
>> 
>> I may have only tested the public betas, but, I’m totally going to stand for 
>> Chris and the other Devs here who were always one step ahead of me.  IF not 
>> for their pioneering work on all this. what we have now might:  and indeed 
>> would be, much much more seriously flawed.  I think we who tested the public 
>> betas have something to say to this also, for you see, I was one of them and 
>> continue to be.  Now, I want to say something else that I feel is in 
>> connection with all this.  Some say we who test the public betas can in fact 
>> discuss what we find in public before the final release.  You could not be 
>> more in error!!!  Obviously, you don’t know what you are  talking about.  
>> Have you bothered to read the terms of agreement that all beta testers, (dev 
>> and public alike) must agree to?  No?  Well, permit me to summarize them for 
>> you.  We cannot say a thing about what we are finding.  We’re strictly 
>> forbidden to show you non testers in any way what it is we are working on.  
>> If you think you have so much to say, you either pay the developer fee or 
>> test the public beta.  Until then, shut up!  I’m coming out here in such 
>> strong defense of dev and public beta testers because I have gone through 
>> just about an entire summer of putting up with idiotic fools whoo have NO 
>> respect for non disclosure agreements and the seriousness with which such 
>> things MUST be taken.  True, not everyone on this list is like that:  in 
>> fact, I suspect that most on this particular list understand my point of 
>> view on this matter.  But on VORail, (yes I am being specific about the 
>> place where most of this stupidity lives) it seemed to reign supreme.  I’m 
>> sure I speak for Chris and the other devs and for the other public beta 
>> testers here when I say that when we say we cannot discuss something, you’d 
>> damn well better take us seriously because we damn well take Apple’s non 
>> disclosure agreements very very seriously.  If stupid sighted people on 
>> podcasts can’t be bother to take such things seriously and go  blabbing 
>> about what they find, that’s their problem.  Also, frankly, it’s not much 
>> help to us if Apple doesn’t enforce their own non disclosure agreements.  
>> Well, let the rest blab if they want to:  I, for my part, will NOT.  
>> Sent from my Mac, The only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
>> built-in
>> 
>> Sincerely, The Constantly Barefooted Ray
>> Still a very happy Mac, Verizon Wireless iPhone6+ and Apple TV user!
>> 
>>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 8:26 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Excuse me, Cheree.  that was profoundly disrespectful, not to mention 
>>> downright insulting to us devs, me being one of them.  Let me tell you 
>>> something.  We devs did! try getting on Apple about stuff like this.  I did 
>>> so in iOS 9, and I even more so did in this iOS 10 update beta cycle.  
>>> Trust me.  I was on the 10 beta from June 30th, when it was announced at 
>>> WWDC until now.  I've ever since had at least one of my devices on 10.
>>> 
>>> I've reported bug after bug after bug to them.  I've worked countless hours 
>>> to the sweat of my brow! trying to explain these things to them, but no 
>>> sollution was 

Re: in public defense of those who beta test Apple software

[christopher hallsworth]

Can I speak up here as well?

I beta tested iOS 10 right from the very beginning, developer beta 1. How it 
was, Apple Developer Relations contacted me over a bug report I sent two years 
ago. Yes, two years ago. It was in relation to Braille Screen Input and 
contracted Braille. I reported then that there was absolutely no typing 
feedback when switching to contracted Braille input. After assuring me that 
they were looking for ideas, they finally told me that character feedback was 
turned off in all cases, and it was released like that. I was disappointed, but 
thought “hey, at least I tried”. So you can imagine the shock I felt when 
receiving that. So thought “hey, let’s check this out and see what I think?” 
And wow, it was amazing to see they finally added typing feedback to contracted 
Braille input. Since I was generally happy with the implementation, I simply 
replied to the report and resolving the bug report. Future betas of iOS 10 I 
saw small, but significant, changes, which were for the better. I’m not going 
to say the changes here, since even the public beta testers never saw them. 
They got changed probably in developer beta 2 at least.

So please, give us credit where it’s due of course, and don’t blame it all on 
Apple. Thank you.


> On 16 Sep 2016, at 03:15, Ray Foret jr  wrote:
> 
> I may have only tested the public betas, but, I’m totally going to stand for 
> Chris and the other Devs here who were always one step ahead of me.  IF not 
> for their pioneering work on all this. what we have now might:  and indeed 
> would be, much much more seriously flawed.  I think we who tested the public 
> betas have something to say to this also, for you see, I was one of them and 
> continue to be.  Now, I want to say something else that I feel is in 
> connection with all this.  Some say we who test the public betas can in fact 
> discuss what we find in public before the final release.  You could not be 
> more in error!!!  Obviously, you don’t know what you are  talking about.  
> Have you bothered to read the terms of agreement that all beta testers, (dev 
> and public alike) must agree to?  No?  Well, permit me to summarize them for 
> you.  We cannot say a thing about what we are finding.  We’re strictly 
> forbidden to show you non testers in any way what it is we are working on.  
> If you think you have so much to say, you either pay the developer fee or 
> test the public beta.  Until then, shut up!  I’m coming out here in such 
> strong defense of dev and public beta testers because I have gone through 
> just about an entire summer of putting up with idiotic fools whoo have NO 
> respect for non disclosure agreements and the seriousness with which such 
> things MUST be taken.  True, not everyone on this list is like that:  in 
> fact, I suspect that most on this particular list understand my point of view 
> on this matter.  But on VORail, (yes I am being specific about the place 
> where most of this stupidity lives) it seemed to reign supreme.  I’m sure I 
> speak for Chris and the other devs and for the other public beta testers here 
> when I say that when we say we cannot discuss something, you’d damn well 
> better take us seriously because we damn well take Apple’s non disclosure 
> agreements very very seriously.  If stupid sighted people on podcasts can’t 
> be bother to take such things seriously and go  blabbing about what they 
> find, that’s their problem.  Also, frankly, it’s not much help to us if Apple 
> doesn’t enforce their own non disclosure agreements.  Well, let the rest blab 
> if they want to:  I, for my part, will NOT.  
> Sent from my Mac, The only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
> built-in
> 
> Sincerely, The Constantly Barefooted Ray
> Still a very happy Mac, Verizon Wireless iPhone6+ and Apple TV user!
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 8:26 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Excuse me, Cheree.  that was profoundly disrespectful, not to mention 
>> downright insulting to us devs, me being one of them.  Let me tell you 
>> something.  We devs did! try getting on Apple about stuff like this.  I did 
>> so in iOS 9, and I even more so did in this iOS 10 update beta cycle.  Trust 
>> me.  I was on the 10 beta from June 30th, when it was announced at WWDC 
>> until now.  I've ever since had at least one of my devices on 10.
>>  
>> I've reported bug after bug after bug to them.  I've worked countless hours 
>> to the sweat of my brow! trying to explain these things to them, but no 
>> sollution was ever made.  So don't be putting the blame on us devs, OK?  
>> We've done our damdest! to make this new version of OSX, TVOS, Watch OS, and 
>> iOS as  wonderful as possible.  The thing is, once we make the bug reports 
>> through the bugreporter bug tracker, we really don't then have much of a say 
>> past that point.  If Apple fixes it, great, if not, well, we've done our 
>> parts by reporting it.
>>  
>> Now, if us devs just saw the

Re: in public defense of those who beta test Apple software

[Scott Granados]

Sounds like a private beta to me which is comparing apples and oranges.

The developers involved in the private cycle are very much restricted but once 
public is added it’s a whole new ballgame.

And thanks for doing the testing you do, the deaf blind community is probably 
pretty under represented.  That’s great you stepped up along with the others.
 

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:35 PM, maurice.mines  wrote:
> 
> Good evening, I too have been a beta tester for the last three summers. I 
> almost didn’t do it this summer because for the first time I am actually 
> really very much deaf blind these days. But the good far outweighed any of my 
> concerns. And like the person when responding to I don’t discuss what’s in 
> prerelease software. The only time I will do it is when it can be done very 
> discreetly and handled in a professional manner i.e. with a developer of a 
> major piece of adaptive software. In other words what I’m getting at here is 
> that if I have to discuss something that can be harmful to us as blind people 
> with a developer, with the understanding that the discussion doesn’t leave 
> us, that is the only instance when I break a nondisclosure agreement. Because 
> many moons ago I used to administrate over a beta test program, I don’t know 
> how me on this list remember the old outspoken software title, remember that 
> it was for the very old McIntosh computers, and up until Windows 95 was also 
> run on those computers as well. I was asked in addition to doing tech support 
> stuff at one time to administrate over a beta test program, and the only 
> folks I laden were engineers, and other professionals long with talking over 
> with my boss at the time when the availing folks we approved were 
> professional strictly because of some of what we are discussing on the list. 
> And the concerns about what some major disability related pod casters choose 
> to do, most of them if they’re smart clear their podcasts with the vendors in 
> question before they release podcasts that share proprietary information. Or 
> at least, I hope they do that would just be good common sense to avoid a 
> potential lawsuit. However I certainly agree with Ray, it is certainly up to 
> the company that has imposed the nondisclosure agreement on a beta tester to 
> enforce it. The problem here is the court of public opinion. The media 
> sometimes put stories out that big stent looked like society is nailing a 
> disabled person, without sharing the full story. And so that can sometimes 
> make a company look bad, when it was the customers fault that something 
> happened. So I think some of apples appearance of not enforcing their 
> nondisclosure agreement, is simply because you don’t want bad press. It also 
> depends on the severity of the breach of confidentiality if it’s a minor 
> feature that leaks, then it’s probably no big deal. But if it’s a large 
> feature a.k.a. most of the company’s core business necessity, they are 
> definitely going to come down on some money who does that because not all 
> companies are the size of Apple, and/or Microsoft used for example here, 
> particularly in the adaptive technology world, most companies are very small. 
> So breaking a nondisclosure agreement most companies in our field can even 
> mean to accompany going out of business. I guess the moral of the very 
> lengthy story is this, think before you start spilling the beans. Who are you 
> really benefiting, and are you hurting the disability comunity more than 
> helping, because companies like Apple who make public betas available might 
> think twice about letting those of us in the adaptive technology field, and 
> the disability community in general beta test something if they feel that 
> they’re being taken advantage of it takes years to get goodwill from large 
> corporations like Apple and Microsoft. Let’s not go out and destroy that 
> goodwill because that’s how we get whatever we want to get done on our 
> computers goodwill and the law a.k.a. let’s keep the bridge there not blow 
> the bridge up so that already have is the bottom of whatever body of water 
> that which was once over. The end
> 
> Sincerely Maurice mines.
> note that the text of my comments have been dictated to the computer by using 
> Dragon version 6 for Mac OS. If there in the text that I’ve dictated to the 
> computer, those errors may be caused by problems with the process of 
> dictating the text to the computer, or the software configuration itself. If 
> there’s something you didn’t understand that I’ve written,. Please ask me 
> what my original intent was? I will do my very best to clear up any 
> misunderstandings.
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 7:15 PM, Ray Foret jr > > wrote:
>> 
>> I may have only tested the public betas, but, I’m totally going to stand for 
>> Chris and the other Devs here who were always one step ahead of me.  IF not 
>> for their pioneering work on all this. what we 

Re: in public defense of those who beta test Apple software

[Scott Granados]

Ray, nice try but I’ll believe the legal department of Fidelity way before your 
assessment.  I was advised by my own legal team as well as my employer’s legal 
team that discussion of the public beta was fine.  How much law school do you 
have?

Full stop!

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 10:15 PM, Ray Foret jr  wrote:
> 
> I may have only tested the public betas, but, I’m totally going to stand for 
> Chris and the other Devs here who were always one step ahead of me.  IF not 
> for their pioneering work on all this. what we have now might:  and indeed 
> would be, much much more seriously flawed.  I think we who tested the public 
> betas have something to say to this also, for you see, I was one of them and 
> continue to be.  Now, I want to say something else that I feel is in 
> connection with all this.  Some say we who test the public betas can in fact 
> discuss what we find in public before the final release.  You could not be 
> more in error!!!  Obviously, you don’t know what you are  talking about.  
> Have you bothered to read the terms of agreement that all beta testers, (dev 
> and public alike) must agree to?  No?  Well, permit me to summarize them for 
> you.  We cannot say a thing about what we are finding.  We’re strictly 
> forbidden to show you non testers in any way what it is we are working on.  
> If you think you have so much to say, you either pay the developer fee or 
> test the public beta.  Until then, shut up!  I’m coming out here in such 
> strong defense of dev and public beta testers because I have gone through 
> just about an entire summer of putting up with idiotic fools whoo have NO 
> respect for non disclosure agreements and the seriousness with which such 
> things MUST be taken.  True, not everyone on this list is like that:  in 
> fact, I suspect that most on this particular list understand my point of view 
> on this matter.  But on VORail, (yes I am being specific about the place 
> where most of this stupidity lives) it seemed to reign supreme.  I’m sure I 
> speak for Chris and the other devs and for the other public beta testers here 
> when I say that when we say we cannot discuss something, you’d damn well 
> better take us seriously because we damn well take Apple’s non disclosure 
> agreements very very seriously.  If stupid sighted people on podcasts can’t 
> be bother to take such things seriously and go  blabbing about what they 
> find, that’s their problem.  Also, frankly, it’s not much help to us if Apple 
> doesn’t enforce their own non disclosure agreements.  Well, let the rest blab 
> if they want to:  I, for my part, will NOT.  
> Sent from my Mac, The only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
> built-in
> 
> Sincerely, The Constantly Barefooted Ray
> Still a very happy Mac, Verizon Wireless iPhone6+ and Apple TV user!
> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 8:26 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland > > wrote:
>> 
>> Excuse me, Cheree.  that was profoundly disrespectful, not to mention 
>> downright insulting to us devs, me being one of them.  Let me tell you 
>> something.  We devs did! try getting on Apple about stuff like this.  I did 
>> so in iOS 9, and I even more so did in this iOS 10 update beta cycle.  Trust 
>> me.  I was on the 10 beta from June 30th, when it was announced at WWDC 
>> until now.  I've ever since had at least one of my devices on 10.
>>  
>> I've reported bug after bug after bug to them.  I've worked countless hours 
>> to the sweat of my brow! trying to explain these things to them, but no 
>> sollution was ever made.  So don't be putting the blame on us devs, OK?  
>> We've done our damdest! to make this new version of OSX, TVOS, Watch OS, and 
>> iOS as  wonderful as possible.  The thing is, once we make the bug reports 
>> through the bugreporter bug tracker, we really don't then have much of a say 
>> past that point.  If Apple fixes it, great, if not, well, we've done our 
>> parts by reporting it.
>>  
>> Now, if us devs just saw the bug and ignored it, then therefore it was 
>> released buggy, then, I'd totally give this message to you, but, hunttauhh.  
>> I'm not lettin' you have this.  I'm sorry.  Us devs deserve more credit, and 
>> respect!  We really, really really did try!
>>  
>> Can another person on this list who's a dev and paid the 99 for the iOS 10 
>> cycle please speak up and advocate for us all here as well?  This is just 
>> wrong!
>> ---
>> Christopher Gilland
>> JAWS Certified, 2016.
>> Training Instructor.
>>  
>> i...@gillandmarketing.com 
>> Phone: (704) 256-8010.
>>> - Original Message - 
>>> From: Cheree Heppe 
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 9:08 PM
>>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>>> 
>>> You developers and designers, changers and alter era can flick yourselves 
>>> into you-know-where regarding this chang

Re: in public defense of those who beta test Apple software

[maurice.mines]

Good evening, I too have been a beta tester for the last three summers. I 
almost didn’t do it this summer because for the first time I am actually really 
very much deaf blind these days. But the good far outweighed any of my 
concerns. And like the person when responding to I don’t discuss what’s in 
prerelease software. The only time I will do it is when it can be done very 
discreetly and handled in a professional manner i.e. with a developer of a 
major piece of adaptive software. In other words what I’m getting at here is 
that if I have to discuss something that can be harmful to us as blind people 
with a developer, with the understanding that the discussion doesn’t leave us, 
that is the only instance when I break a nondisclosure agreement. Because many 
moons ago I used to administrate over a beta test program, I don’t know how me 
on this list remember the old outspoken software title, remember that it was 
for the very old McIntosh computers, and up until Windows 95 was also run on 
those computers as well. I was asked in addition to doing tech support stuff at 
one time to administrate over a beta test program, and the only folks I laden 
were engineers, and other professionals long with talking over with my boss at 
the time when the availing folks we approved were professional strictly because 
of some of what we are discussing on the list. And the concerns about what some 
major disability related pod casters choose to do, most of them if they’re 
smart clear their podcasts with the vendors in question before they release 
podcasts that share proprietary information. Or at least, I hope they do that 
would just be good common sense to avoid a potential lawsuit. However I 
certainly agree with Ray, it is certainly up to the company that has imposed 
the nondisclosure agreement on a beta tester to enforce it. The problem here is 
the court of public opinion. The media sometimes put stories out that big stent 
looked like society is nailing a disabled person, without sharing the full 
story. And so that can sometimes make a company look bad, when it was the 
customers fault that something happened. So I think some of apples appearance 
of not enforcing their nondisclosure agreement, is simply because you don’t 
want bad press. It also depends on the severity of the breach of 
confidentiality if it’s a minor feature that leaks, then it’s probably no big 
deal. But if it’s a large feature a.k.a. most of the company’s core business 
necessity, they are definitely going to come down on some money who does that 
because not all companies are the size of Apple, and/or Microsoft used for 
example here, particularly in the adaptive technology world, most companies are 
very small. So breaking a nondisclosure agreement most companies in our field 
can even mean to accompany going out of business. I guess the moral of the very 
lengthy story is this, think before you start spilling the beans. Who are you 
really benefiting, and are you hurting the disability comunity more than 
helping, because companies like Apple who make public betas available might 
think twice about letting those of us in the adaptive technology field, and the 
disability community in general beta test something if they feel that they’re 
being taken advantage of it takes years to get goodwill from large corporations 
like Apple and Microsoft. Let’s not go out and destroy that goodwill because 
that’s how we get whatever we want to get done on our computers goodwill and 
the law a.k.a. let’s keep the bridge there not blow the bridge up so that 
already have is the bottom of whatever body of water that which was once over. 
The end

Sincerely Maurice mines.
note that the text of my comments have been dictated to the computer by using 
Dragon version 6 for Mac OS. If there in the text that I’ve dictated to the 
computer, those errors may be caused by problems with the process of dictating 
the text to the computer, or the software configuration itself. If there’s 
something you didn’t understand that I’ve written,. Please ask me what my 
original intent was? I will do my very best to clear up any misunderstandings.
> On Sep 15, 2016, at 7:15 PM, Ray Foret jr  wrote:
> 
> I may have only tested the public betas, but, I’m totally going to stand for 
> Chris and the other Devs here who were always one step ahead of me.  IF not 
> for their pioneering work on all this. what we have now might:  and indeed 
> would be, much much more seriously flawed.  I think we who tested the public 
> betas have something to say to this also, for you see, I was one of them and 
> continue to be.  Now, I want to say something else that I feel is in 
> connection with all this.  Some say we who test the public betas can in fact 
> discuss what we find in public before the final release.  You could not be 
> more in error!!!  Obviously, you don’t know what you are  talking about.  
> Have you bothered to read the terms of agreement that all beta testers, (

in public defense of those who beta test Apple software

[Ray Foret jr]

I may have only tested the public betas, but, I’m totally going to stand for 
Chris and the other Devs here who were always one step ahead of me.  IF not for 
their pioneering work on all this. what we have now might:  and indeed would 
be, much much more seriously flawed.  I think we who tested the public betas 
have something to say to this also, for you see, I was one of them and continue 
to be.  Now, I want to say something else that I feel is in connection with all 
this.  Some say we who test the public betas can in fact discuss what we find 
in public before the final release.  You could not be more in error!!!  
Obviously, you don’t know what you are  talking about.  Have you bothered to 
read the terms of agreement that all beta testers, (dev and public alike) must 
agree to?  No?  Well, permit me to summarize them for you.  We cannot say a 
thing about what we are finding.  We’re strictly forbidden to show you non 
testers in any way what it is we are working on.  If you think you have so much 
to say, you either pay the developer fee or test the public beta.  Until then, 
shut up!  I’m coming out here in such strong defense of dev and public beta 
testers because I have gone through just about an entire summer of putting up 
with idiotic fools whoo have NO respect for non disclosure agreements and the 
seriousness with which such things MUST be taken.  True, not everyone on this 
list is like that:  in fact, I suspect that most on this particular list 
understand my point of view on this matter.  But on VORail, (yes I am being 
specific about the place where most of this stupidity lives) it seemed to reign 
supreme.  I’m sure I speak for Chris and the other devs and for the other 
public beta testers here when I say that when we say we cannot discuss 
something, you’d damn well better take us seriously because we damn well take 
Apple’s non disclosure agreements very very seriously.  If stupid sighted 
people on podcasts can’t be bother to take such things seriously and go  
blabbing about what they find, that’s their problem.  Also, frankly, it’s not 
much help to us if Apple doesn’t enforce their own non disclosure agreements.  
Well, let the rest blab if they want to:  I, for my part, will NOT.  
Sent from my Mac, The only computer with full accessibility for the blind 
built-in

Sincerely, The Constantly Barefooted Ray
Still a very happy Mac, Verizon Wireless iPhone6+ and Apple TV user!

> On Sep 15, 2016, at 8:26 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland  
> wrote:
> 
> Excuse me, Cheree.  that was profoundly disrespectful, not to mention 
> downright insulting to us devs, me being one of them.  Let me tell you 
> something.  We devs did! try getting on Apple about stuff like this.  I did 
> so in iOS 9, and I even more so did in this iOS 10 update beta cycle.  Trust 
> me.  I was on the 10 beta from June 30th, when it was announced at WWDC until 
> now.  I've ever since had at least one of my devices on 10.
>  
> I've reported bug after bug after bug to them.  I've worked countless hours 
> to the sweat of my brow! trying to explain these things to them, but no 
> sollution was ever made.  So don't be putting the blame on us devs, OK?  
> We've done our damdest! to make this new version of OSX, TVOS, Watch OS, and 
> iOS as  wonderful as possible.  The thing is, once we make the bug reports 
> through the bugreporter bug tracker, we really don't then have much of a say 
> past that point.  If Apple fixes it, great, if not, well, we've done our 
> parts by reporting it.
>  
> Now, if us devs just saw the bug and ignored it, then therefore it was 
> released buggy, then, I'd totally give this message to you, but, hunttauhh.  
> I'm not lettin' you have this.  I'm sorry.  Us devs deserve more credit, and 
> respect!  We really, really really did try!
>  
> Can another person on this list who's a dev and paid the 99 for the iOS 10 
> cycle please speak up and advocate for us all here as well?  This is just 
> wrong!
> ---
> Christopher Gilland
> JAWS Certified, 2016.
> Training Instructor.
>  
> i...@gillandmarketing.com 
> Phone: (704) 256-8010.
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: Cheree Heppe 
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2016 9:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: IOS10 Mail app changes
>> 
>> You developers and designers, changers and alter era can flick yourselves 
>> into you-know-where regarding this change to mail on iOS.
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Sep 15, 2016, at 15:27, David Chittenden > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Correct, the way messages are handled has changed. Visually, it now looks 
>>> much more like mail on the mac. It also works more like macmail.
>>> 
>>> When in the main message list, individual messages are still handled the 
>>> same as in iOS 9. Threads are different. If one double-taps on a thread to 
>>>