Re: [maemo-developers] Java on 770
On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 15:08 +0200, ext Santtu Lakkala wrote: Michael Dominic Kostrzewa wrote: I find it more reasonable to port a Java widget toolkit to hildon, than to create a wholly new toolkit. SWT can already use Gtk, so I guess it'd mostly be porting the backend to use hildon widgets where applicable. Hmm, I'm not sure what you mean. There is, indeed, no sense in creating a new toolkit (for what?). What we prolly need is hildon-* bindings for Java and gtk bindings (I assume they exists somewhere). Afaik there are no Gtk bindings per se. But there is IBM's swt toolkit, that can use Gtk as a backend. If we just make Gtk bindings, we lose quite a lot of the reasons to use Java in the first place. If we have our own, product specific, library for widgets, then there is a need for porting software. Instead there should be a backend for swt (or awt/swing) that uses hildon widgets where appropriate. This way the program will run and look native in multitude of environments. All this without need for modifying source or even recompiling. IMHO, part of the success[1] of mono is the fact that it uses (can use) Gtk almost natively. People who know Gtk can jump on the bandwagon instantly, benefiting from the C# object-oriented features without losing any C knowledge. Again, maybe I'm just not looking into the right places... but has anyone actually managed to achieve this (kind of) UI-abstraction with Java? I mean -- is is possible to run those games for mobile phones on linux/windows desktop? Can I run the gmail java-client for symbian on a linux/windows desktop? I don't think so, since google even seems to be bundling a separate version of the gmail-app for every version of symbian. Also, it's not only about GUI toolkit but also about other API's. Ie. you most likely want to use gnome-vfs, dbus, gstreamer, etc. Using plain SWT (even with Gtk drawing) will result in a lot of inconsistencies. Ie. the input methods will not work as expected. Why will the input methods not work? I may be wrong on this, but I really think they would work. But anyway, having gnome-vfs available would be nice, but once again, if it is only used on maemo there is no real gain from using java. For gnome-vfs, I'd say the best way is to replace FileInputStreams with gnome-vfs implementations. Sure, then you'd be forced to use gnome-vfs, but at least you would not need code changes. The core of input methods should work, but devil is in the details. Example: using our custom defines you can currently set a GtkEntry into a numbers only mode, which will be nicely picked-up by the input methods. This will not automagically work with SWT. Another example -- I don't recall SWT having an equiv. of infobanners, which play an import role in hildon UI look feel. Sure, you can use some kind of dialogs... but then you're compromising. GStreamer is a harder one, this would probably be a nice-to-have one. And without DBus I guess there's no way to get total integration with rest of the system. With mono, the bindings exist for most of the components we use, although they might need some tweaking. For some custom components (ie. hildon-libs) we want to generate the bindings with the gapi-parser. This way the mono apps on 770 will have a 100% native look, feel and behaviour. Call me idealist, but in my opinion for Java (and mono) to be really useful, the same code -- even the same binaries, should run everywhere and look native -- without a mess of checks on what the system we're on supports. Well, that's very much true for mono. Your gtk-sharp based application will run and look very much same on Linux/Gnome and ie. Windows. On Windows Gtk will use an Xp theme to look like the rest of the system. But to be frank, I don't believe much in the compile once, run everywhere idea. It's technically possible, but ignores the fact that different systems/devices/UI's have different methodologies. Something that makes sense on a touchscreen-based device (ie. dragdrop based interface) will not make sense on the keypad-driven mobile phone. Or, to be less radical: instant-apply settings make sense on Gnome, but might be very confusing to the windows user. The only way to solve this problem is to enter higher-levels of UI abstraction -- what often produces bloated, heavy monsters that in the end look like aliens in every environment. I think the only solution to this problem is to write applications that have nicely detached UI and engine. And code UI separately for every platfrom from scratch. This is, unfortunately, very hard and requires a lot of skills. But java (and mono) is not a silver bullet that will make your applications automagically fully cross-platform. -- MDK 1: Success is pretty contrversial here, especially in the light of the recent MS Novell randez-vous. But I understand success here from the Gnome point of view -- having more user-ready applications
Re: garage upload policy Re: [maemo-developers] Java on 770
ext Frantisek Dufka wrote: Just to clarify this, there is no policy that each package needs to have project (and sources) in garage? Once I have one project may I upload other (unrelated) packages? Yes, you may. Currently there is no policy which would say otherwise. I'm asking because I'd like to put scummvm [1] into extras repository but think that duplicating scummvm svn repository and creating project is not needed. It is straight recompile from upstream repository configured for SDL backend only with few key remapping patches. I already have one unrelated project (bootmenu) so I can upload (not tried yet). So far was not sure about this policy. Or do you prefer many almost empty projects for each port? Such scummvm project can maybe host nice pages made by Tomas [2] or maybe few diffs to upstream version until there is proper maemo port but still I think it is not enough to satisfy garage project. You are right. There is absolutely no point to have empty projects, just because of the upload rights to extras. In practice one only needs a garage account to get these rights, you don't even need a project. I think we should refine or define the upload policy together. Maybe we need to write something formal to the garage wiki [1] first and discuss the matter in a separate mail thread. Frantisek Cheers, ferenc [1] https://maemo.org/maemowiki/MaemoGarageStartUp ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Java on 770 (was: Unresolved issues (Week 46))
On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 18:02 +0200, Tommi Komulainen wrote: On Mon, 2006-11-20 at 15:13 +0200, ext Tommi Komulainen wrote: * http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2006-November/006188.html Java on the 770 Now that Java will be put under the GPL is there any plan (from Nokia) to integrate it into the firmware? We don't have any plans at the moment. On personal note, if someone makes nice packages it would be easier to gather some community effort around Java. It would also make our lives easier when the question about integrating Java comes up again. So, something for a new garage.maemo.org project. Then we can just apt-get install it from extras. -- Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Java on 770
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Murray Cumming schreef: On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 18:02 +0200, Tommi Komulainen wrote: On Mon, 2006-11-20 at 15:13 +0200, ext Tommi Komulainen wrote: * http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2006-November/006188.html Java on the 770 Now that Java will be put under the GPL is there any plan (from Nokia) to integrate it into the firmware? We don't have any plans at the moment. On personal note, if someone makes nice packages it would be easier to gather some community effort around Java. It would also make our lives easier when the question about integrating Java comes up again. So, something for a new garage.maemo.org project. Then we can just apt-get install it from extras. Do we really need a garage project for something that is basically a Makefile? I can already see it happening that someone is going to but the java sources in garage svn because it's easier and we end up with a unmaintainable fork. I'm all for java packages for maemo, but lets do it in a sustainable way. regards, Koen -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD8DBQFFZs5oMkyGM64RGpERAj+kAJ0YqwWOG83uHj5rtjeC3uZP8+K14ACcCfMu LxJu5aUnbWnnLfihG6nd7io= =Vfvy -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Java on 770 (was: Unresolved issues (Week 46))
BTW, we're doing some work/experimenting with the mono stack on 770. So, most likely C#/mono will be availible on 770 before Java is. This is thanks to the work done by lupus/Novell to get the vm working on arm. Also, getting java vm itself working is just the first step. It's not very usefull unless all the g_ bindings are there. I don't know much about java, but I think the state of java g_ bindings is not that good as *-sharp bindings. MDK On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 06:02:45PM +0200, ext Tommi Komulainen wrote: On Mon, 2006-11-20 at 15:13 +0200, ext Tommi Komulainen wrote: * http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2006-November/006188.html Java on the 770 Now that Java will be put under the GPL is there any plan (from Nokia) to integrate it into the firmware? We don't have any plans at the moment. On personal note, if someone makes nice packages it would be easier to gather some community effort around Java. It would also make our lives easier when the question about integrating Java comes up again. -- Tommi Komulainen[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Java on 770
On Fri, 2006-11-24 at 11:50 +0100, Koen Kooi wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Murray Cumming schreef: On Thu, 2006-11-23 at 18:02 +0200, Tommi Komulainen wrote: On Mon, 2006-11-20 at 15:13 +0200, ext Tommi Komulainen wrote: * http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2006-November/006188.html Java on the 770 Now that Java will be put under the GPL is there any plan (from Nokia) to integrate it into the firmware? We don't have any plans at the moment. On personal note, if someone makes nice packages it would be easier to gather some community effort around Java. It would also make our lives easier when the question about integrating Java comes up again. So, something for a new garage.maemo.org project. Then we can just apt-get install it from extras. Do we really need a garage project for something that is basically a Makefile? I can already see it happening that someone is going to but the java sources in garage svn because it's easier and we end up with a unmaintainable fork. I'm all for java packages for maemo, but lets do it in a sustainable way. Currently the only way to upload packages to extras (previously contrib) is to create a garage project. But that doesn't force you to use the svn repository in garage or otherwise fork anyone's source code. If there's a better way to get packages into extras, I'd like to know about it. -- Murray Cumming [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Java on 770
ext Murray Cumming wrote: Currently the only way to upload packages to extras (previously contrib) is to create a garage project. But that doesn't force you to use the svn repository in garage or otherwise fork anyone's source code. If there's a better way to get packages into extras, I'd like to know about it. yes, this is all true. you need an account on garage first. then you need an invitation from us. you can always send a mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you'd like to have the upload rights. with this procedure we would like to ensure some level of quality, so we do some reference checking before granting the access. after receiving the invite and completing a simple web form you are ready to go. what can be then more simple than using dput for uploading packages? :) Regards, Ferenc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Java on 770
Michael Dominic Kostrzewa wrote: I find it more reasonable to port a Java widget toolkit to hildon, than to create a wholly new toolkit. SWT can already use Gtk, so I guess it'd mostly be porting the backend to use hildon widgets where applicable. Hmm, I'm not sure what you mean. There is, indeed, no sense in creating a new toolkit (for what?). What we prolly need is hildon-* bindings for Java and gtk bindings (I assume they exists somewhere). Afaik there are no Gtk bindings per se. But there is IBM's swt toolkit, that can use Gtk as a backend. If we just make Gtk bindings, we lose quite a lot of the reasons to use Java in the first place. If we have our own, product specific, library for widgets, then there is a need for porting software. Instead there should be a backend for swt (or awt/swing) that uses hildon widgets where appropriate. This way the program will run and look native in multitude of environments. All this without need for modifying source or even recompiling. Also, it's not only about GUI toolkit but also about other API's. Ie. you most likely want to use gnome-vfs, dbus, gstreamer, etc. Using plain SWT (even with Gtk drawing) will result in a lot of inconsistencies. Ie. the input methods will not work as expected. Why will the input methods not work? I may be wrong on this, but I really think they would work. But anyway, having gnome-vfs available would be nice, but once again, if it is only used on maemo there is no real gain from using java. For gnome-vfs, I'd say the best way is to replace FileInputStreams with gnome-vfs implementations. Sure, then you'd be forced to use gnome-vfs, but at least you would not need code changes. GStreamer is a harder one, this would probably be a nice-to-have one. And without DBus I guess there's no way to get total integration with rest of the system. With mono, the bindings exist for most of the components we use, although they might need some tweaking. For some custom components (ie. hildon-libs) we want to generate the bindings with the gapi-parser. This way the mono apps on 770 will have a 100% native look, feel and behaviour. Call me idealist, but in my opinion for Java (and mono) to be really useful, the same code -- even the same binaries, should run everywhere and look native -- without a mess of checks on what the system we're on supports. Oops, forgot (once again) reply-to-all and thus we were out of the list for a couple of messages. -- Santtu Lakkala ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: [maemo-developers] Java on 770
Am 24 Nov 2006 um 15:08 hat Santtu Lakkala geschrieben: Afaik there are no Gtk bindings per se. But there is IBM's swt toolkit, that can use Gtk as a backend. If we just make Gtk bindings, we lose quite a lot of the reasons to use Java in the first place. If we have our own, product specific, library for widgets, then there is a need for porting software. Instead there should be a backend for swt (or awt/swing) that uses hildon widgets where appropriate. This way the AFAIK the GNU classpath project tries to be compatible to SUN/Java's AWT toolkit and it is based upon the gtk toolkit. So this would be the way to go. Is the Sun/Java *ix version still Motif based? If yes, we will have not much benefit of the GPL'd Sun/Java sources. Or is there anybody who *really* wants to run Motif apps on our small little 770? program will run and look native in multitude of environments. All this without need for modifying source or even recompiling. Yes - this is the goal of Java. I really think there isn't much use of a gtk or hildon only widget set. -Klaus -- Klaus Rotter * klaus at rotters dot de * www.rotters.de ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
[maemo-developers] Java on 770 (was: Unresolved issues (Week 46))
On Mon, 2006-11-20 at 15:13 +0200, ext Tommi Komulainen wrote: * http://maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2006-November/006188.html Java on the 770 Now that Java will be put under the GPL is there any plan (from Nokia) to integrate it into the firmware? We don't have any plans at the moment. On personal note, if someone makes nice packages it would be easier to gather some community effort around Java. It would also make our lives easier when the question about integrating Java comes up again. -- Tommi Komulainen[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
