Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Koen Kooi]

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Juha Yrjölä wrote:
> On Mon, 2005-10-31 at 13:53 +0100, ext Koen Kooi wrote:
> 
> 
>>What's nokia's position on EABI[1]?
> 
> 
> At least this part of Nokia thinks that EABI is cool.

It seems you have company*:

http://lists.debian.org/debian-arm/2006/03/msg00058.html

regards,

Koen


*pun intended
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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Martin Grimme]

Hello Devesh,

Am Dienstag, den 01.11.2005, 11:39 +0200 schrieb Devesh Kothari:
> I am trying to get a How-To which should describe the multimedia
> architecture explained and how to write custom codec and how to
> integrate and install them.
> 
> could you post your code ???  this could be quite useful or even start a
> How-To page on the Wiki

I am going to post my code soon, once it has been cleaned up a bit.
It's still in a highly experimental state, but now that playback is
fluent, I can get the code in good shape. :)

My program is not a codec but a player on its own, as it was originally
just a proof-of-concept. I'm currently using libao for audio output,
instead of the maemo multimedia architecture.


Regards, Martin


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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Riku Voipio]

On Monday 31 October 2005 14:36, Paul Mundt wrote:
> Some versions of the ARM9 support VFP, which allows for partial hardware
> FP support for some basic single and double precision opcodes, and traps
> for the rest (it however does not offer a IEEE754 compliant interface in
> hardware, and requires quite a bit of help from software to do so). OMAP
> 2420 supports this, OMAP 1710 does not. As such, we presently use
> in-kernel NWFPE.

As I understand, trapping happens if you want the VFP to signal if it's 
results are inaccurate or non-IEEE. The logic appears to be, that for most 
users it is more important to have a fast fpu than high quality math results.  

It would need some more investigating to find out how bad the inaccuracies 
are, and if you can use it as the fpu for off-the-shelf software expecting 
IEEE semantics, or if it's usefullness is limited to code written 
specifically for it. From Debian/Alpha experiences, I would bet for the 
latter. Especially considering that pre-EV6 alpha fpu did not suck - it was 
just not perfectly IEEE compatible..

> This is not necessarily true either, and is one of the bigger reasons for
> pushing EABI. It makes sense to use VFP for what it supports natively,
> most of the rest of it is better left to something like soft-float.
> Kernel FP emulation is slow by definition.

Agreed. Even if VFP turns out to be really fast and usefull, most arm cpu's 
will still be fpuless for a long time from now. 
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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Devesh Kothari]

ext Martin Grimme wrote:

>Hello,
>
>I have written a little program which can fluently play OGG Vorbis
>files on the device. This shows that OGG support is technically
>possible and, by utilizing the DSP, it could even be implemented more
>efficient. My CPU-only implementation causes about 20% CPU load for
>playing in CD quality.
>
>I'm going to add a little GUI and provide an installer package
>for my OGG player soon.
>
>
>Regards, Martin
>
>
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>  
>
I am trying to get a How-To which should describe the multimedia
architecture explained and how to write custom codec and how to
integrate and install them.

could you post your code ???  this could be quite useful or even start a
How-To page on the Wiki

Br,
Devesh

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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Paul Mundt]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2005 at 11:09:34PM +, Tom S. wrote:
> > Concerning the 770 the DSP based solution should improve device
> > performance since the MPU would be left for applications instead of
> > decoding.
> 
> I'm nit picking here, though, generally the arithmetic unit is called an 
> ALU.
> 
The DSP isn't implemented as a simple co-processor, OMAP contains more
than one physical processor in the package. (Including the ARM MPU and
the c55x DSP). MPU in this case refers to Micro-Processing Unit, which
refers to the primary ARM in the OMAP. Anyone even vaguely familiar with
TI and OMAP literature should be aware of this, hopefully this should
clear things up. Calling it ALU-based decoding would be misleading, as
vendors have a tendency to implement barrel shifters in hardware outside
of the scope of the ALU. ;-)
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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Tom S.]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2005 at 05:32:55PM +0100, Nils Faerber wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Paul Mundt schrieb:
> > On Sun, Oct 30, 2005 at 07:59:46PM +0100, Nils Faerber wrote:
> >>I am quite sure that the ARM9 does not support FP at all. What is IMHO
> >>supported are some FP traps that would trap into kernel or other FP
> >>software implementations. But that dies not speed up anything. There is
> >>to my knowledge no embedded CPU that has hw FP built in.
> [...]
> > As far as embedded CPUs supporting hardware FP, this is a ridiculous
> > statement. Almost every other embedded architecture out there besides ARM
> > supports IEEE754 in hardware. Some opt for something more like the VFP
> > approach, where most of the heavy and frequently used opcodes are
> > handled, and the rest is left to software.
> 
> Well, then maybe my experience is limited here.
> I had several ARM based platforms (no ARM9 up to now, admittedly) as
> well as embedded PowerPC and MIPS. None of those had FP and had not
> options for it.
> At least to my experience lets say, hardware FP is uncommon...
> 
ARM have designed processors that have been release with Floating-Point 
Units. (ARM7 (7500FE), as an example)

> 
> > An integer based decoder on MPU side would certainly be the most sensible
> > approach.
> 
> Sensible in what way?
> Concerning time/effort effectiveness? Then this is probably correct.
> Concerning the 770 the DSP based solution should improve device
> performance since the MPU would be left for applications instead of
> decoding.

I'm nit picking here, though, generally the arithmetic unit is called an 
ALU.

> Or do you think that the DSP is in general not able to handle OGG? If
> yes it would be interesting to know why.
> 

Nokia maemo developers have already said that OGG support was going to 
happen, it's just they wanted to support the main stream formats before
the open ones. So be patient 8)

Gracefully, Tom Swindell.
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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Paul Mundt]

(This is really starting to veer off-topic for this list.. Hopefully
this will clear things up for people still wondering about hard FP)

On Mon, Oct 31, 2005 at 05:32:55PM +0100, Nils Faerber wrote:
> Well, then maybe my experience is limited here.
> I had several ARM based platforms (no ARM9 up to now, admittedly) as
> well as embedded PowerPC and MIPS. None of those had FP and had not
> options for it.
> At least to my experience lets say, hardware FP is uncommon...
> 
I'm not sure what your experience is, or what kind of stripped down cores
you were using, but this kind of thing has _always_ been an option for
both embedded PowerPC and MIPS (at least as long as I have been hacking
on them).

With MIPS this kind of thing even goes back to the r2k (almost 2 decades
now, IEEE754 had been ratified in 1985), and has been optionally present
on virtually every major family and individual subtypes since then.
Generally implemented as CP1, where it's trivial to treat the FPUID (I
don't recall the official field designator off the top of my head) very
similar to how PRID parsing is done at runtime. Due to MIPS being fabless
(at least for a lot of its lifetime), I suppose it's quite probable that
whatever vendor you ended up with simply opted to drop this from the
package, however this is hardly the norm.

For embedded PowerPC it's just as common. Both 602 and 603e had it
(although it was only 603e that did double precision, but both were
IEEE754 compliant in hardware) -- this was also over a decade ago, and
people are still using these cores today. The only popular ones that were
lacking it were mpc860/mpc823 and some of the other low-end Motorola
cores (mpc750 had one).

Other embedded platforms (like SH) have even been doing separately
pipelined single-precision vector and matrix operations (128-bit) since
1997, and single/double-precision IEEE754 long before that. Even i960 was
doing hardware FP in those days and earlier.

ARM is really the _only_ architecture where lack of FP hardware is the
norm, rather than the exception. This is slowly starting to change now
with v6 and up supporting VFP (and some ARM9s as well), but I suppose it
will still be an optional component for quite some time, until they get
their implementations worked out. As others have also pointed out, there
are other ARM-based hard macros available with hard FP, besides VFP.

Anyways, let's not misrepresent other embedded architectures due to ARM
being late to the game. Making vague generalizations based on limited
exposure is misleading (even if based on your own experience and with
good intentions), and this will very likely end up confusing other
people. If you are still unsure about this, a few minutes with google
might help to clear things up.

The point remains however, FP of any sort is _not_ the way to go on 1710,
and I hope this is now sufficiently clear to anyone still wondering about
this.

> > An integer based decoder on MPU side would certainly be the most
> > sensible approach.
> 
> Sensible in what way?
> Concerning time/effort effectiveness? Then this is probably correct.

Yes.

> Concerning the 770 the DSP based solution should improve device
> performance since the MPU would be left for applications instead of
> decoding.

If someone wants to go to the trouble of writing a DSP codec for OGG
decoding, they're certainly welcome to make a go of it. You can fetch a
toolchain from TI, load up the dspgateway page, and start hacking. I'm
certain Toshihiro-san will welcome any contributions :-)

The integer based decoder is clearly going to outperform any hard FP
based decoder (and most probably soft-float as well). 20% utilization on
MPU isn't that bad of a start though, so as far as time vs effort is
concerned, the integer based MPU way is still the most "approachable"
solution.
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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Ed Okerson]

Martin,

The initial release does use the DSP quite extensively, just not for OGG. 
This is all documented at http://dspgateway.sourceforge.net.

Ed

> Martin,
>
> does the N770 have a programmer's reference manual? I would like to
> learn more about the characteristics of the Digital Signal Processor
> (DSP), part #, manufacturer, etc.,  and how it is integrated into the
> N770. From the discussion on this list it would appear that even though
> the initial release of the N770 software from Nokia will not make use of
> the DSP, that it has been designed into the product in order to  provide
> signal processing offload for audio at least, and perhaps video/graphics
> as well.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> John Holmblad
>
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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[John B. Holmblad]

Nils,

your assertion (incorrect it seems) about no ARM processors supporting
on-board floating point led me to do some searching and sure enough,
ARM, at least, has products that support onboard FPP. Check out the
info at the following urls:

    http://www.arm.com/products/CPUs/Cortex-A8.html

    http://www.us.design-reuse.com/articles/article11580.html
It appears that the Cortex-A8 has an onboard subsystem entitled "Neon" that has FPP and is designed to provide improved support for the kinds of multimedia apps being discussed in this thread.


Best Regards,

John Holmblad

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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Nils Faerber]

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Paul Mundt schrieb:
> On Sun, Oct 30, 2005 at 07:59:46PM +0100, Nils Faerber wrote:
>>I am quite sure that the ARM9 does not support FP at all. What is IMHO
>>supported are some FP traps that would trap into kernel or other FP
>>software implementations. But that dies not speed up anything. There is
>>to my knowledge no embedded CPU that has hw FP built in.
[...]
> As far as embedded CPUs supporting hardware FP, this is a ridiculous
> statement. Almost every other embedded architecture out there besides ARM
> supports IEEE754 in hardware. Some opt for something more like the VFP
> approach, where most of the heavy and frequently used opcodes are
> handled, and the rest is left to software.

Well, then maybe my experience is limited here.
I had several ARM based platforms (no ARM9 up to now, admittedly) as
well as embedded PowerPC and MIPS. None of those had FP and had not
options for it.
At least to my experience lets say, hardware FP is uncommon...


> An integer based decoder on MPU side would certainly be the most sensible
> approach.

Sensible in what way?
Concerning time/effort effectiveness? Then this is probably correct.
Concerning the 770 the DSP based solution should improve device
performance since the MPU would be left for applications instead of
decoding.
Or do you think that the DSP is in general not able to handle OGG? If
yes it would be interesting to know why.

Cheers
  nils faerber

- --
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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Jan Wildeboer]

Frantisek Dufka wrote:

Hello,

N770 has TI OMAP 1710
see documentation here http://dspgateway.sourceforge.net


http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/omap5912.html#technicaldocuments


Seems a good starting point.

Kind regards

jan Wildeboer
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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Juha Yrjölä]

On Mon, 2005-10-31 at 13:53 +0100, ext Koen Kooi wrote:

> What's nokia's position on EABI[1]?

At least this part of Nokia thinks that EABI is cool.

Cheers,
Juha


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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Frantisek Dufka]

Hello,

N770 has TI OMAP 1710
see documentation here http://dspgateway.sourceforge.net


Frantisek

John B. Holmblad wrote:

  Martin,

does the N770 have a programmer's reference manual? I would like to 
learn more about the characteristics of the Digital Signal Processor 
(DSP), part #, manufacturer, etc.,  and how it is integrated into the 
N770. From the discussion on this list it would appear that even though 
the initial release of the N770 software from Nokia will not make use of 
the DSP, that it has been designed into the product in order to  provide 
signal processing offload for audio at least, and perhaps video/graphics 
as well. 


  Best Regards,

John Holmblad

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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[John B. Holmblad]

Martin,

does the N770 have a programmer's reference manual? I would like to
learn more about the characteristics of the Digital Signal Processor
(DSP), part #, manufacturer, etc.,  and how it is integrated into the
N770. From the discussion on this list it would appear that even though
the initial release of the N770 software from Nokia will not make use
of the DSP, that it has been designed into the product in order to 
provide signal processing offload for audio at least, and perhaps
video/graphics as well.  
Best Regards,

John Holmblad

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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Koen Kooi]

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Paul Mundt wrote:

>>All software FP implementations are of course very CPU intensive. You
>>have to calculate the FP result in software which takes several hundred
>>cycles while in hardware it would only take just a few cycles. So FP on
>>emebdded devices will probably always be dead slow - at least for the
>>next future.
>>
> 
> This is not necessarily true either, and is one of the bigger reasons for
> pushing EABI. It makes sense to use VFP for what it supports natively,
> most of the rest of it is better left to something like soft-float.
> Kernel FP emulation is slow by definition.

What's nokia's position on EABI[1]? I've heard debian has been
discussing this an other distros for ARM devices (Familiar and
OpenZaurus) are planning a switch too. I know glibc lacked EABI support
and RMK raised some more concerns, but I haven't been paying attention
to it for the past few months.
So I'm very interested in nokia's point of view on this EABI thing :)

regards,

Koen


[1] http://www.codesourcery.com/gnu_toolchains/arm/faq.html
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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Paul Mundt]

On Sun, Oct 30, 2005 at 07:59:46PM +0100, Nils Faerber wrote:
> I am quite sure that the ARM9 does not support FP at all. What is IMHO
> supported are some FP traps that would trap into kernel or other FP
> software implementations. But that dies not speed up anything. There is
> to my knowledge no embedded CPU that has hw FP built in.
> 
Some versions of the ARM9 support VFP, which allows for partial hardware
FP support for some basic single and double precision opcodes, and traps
for the rest (it however does not offer a IEEE754 compliant interface in
hardware, and requires quite a bit of help from software to do so). OMAP
2420 supports this, OMAP 1710 does not. As such, we presently use
in-kernel NWFPE.

Additionally, since VFP still uses this antiquated co-processor
load/store scheme, it's pretty tough to get instruction level
parallelism, or decent performance out of the pipelining (unless you can
come up with some carefully crafted set of instructions that you can keep
in the icache long enough for it to matter). This is just speculation
though, someone with more direct VFP experience might have some better
insight in to this.

As far as embedded CPUs supporting hardware FP, this is a ridiculous
statement. Almost every other embedded architecture out there besides ARM
supports IEEE754 in hardware. Some opt for something more like the VFP
approach, where most of the heavy and frequently used opcodes are
handled, and the rest is left to software.

> All software FP implementations are of course very CPU intensive. You
> have to calculate the FP result in software which takes several hundred
> cycles while in hardware it would only take just a few cycles. So FP on
> emebdded devices will probably always be dead slow - at least for the
> next future.
> 
This is not necessarily true either, and is one of the bigger reasons for
pushing EABI. It makes sense to use VFP for what it supports natively,
most of the rest of it is better left to something like soft-float.
Kernel FP emulation is slow by definition.

> Concerning the 770 the integer version could be a first start for having
> OGG capabilities at all. The OMAP DSP device is open to a certain
> extend. The tools to develop code for it are freely available, some
> documentation is too. The DSP in the 770 is controlled by the also free
> DSP gateway project. So there is no big reason why there cannot be a
> free DSP OGG code any time in the near future. I guess on of the major
> problems here is that developing code for DSPs is not very well known in
> the open source community... on the other that could be a very
> interesting software project ;)
> 
An integer based decoder on MPU side would certainly be the most sensible
approach.
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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Jussi Pakkanen]

--- Martin Grimme <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I have written a little program which can fluently
> play OGG Vorbis
> files on the device. This shows that OGG support is
> technically
> possible and, by utilizing the DSP, it could even be
> implemented more
> efficient.

That's cool. There has been some confusion on why
there is no official OGG support. As far as I can
tell, the situation is as follows (note: I'm not
working for Nokia or any other such company, and I
don't actually know any hidden, hard facts. Consider
the following an educated guess)

The lack of OGG is caused by two things. The time
shortage has already been mentioned on this list.
There have been semi-reliable rumors that
DSP-accelerated OGG is now working somewhere in the
vaults of Nokia.

The other reason is a combination of lawyers and SW
patents. As far as people can tell, there are no
patents on OGG. But a company the size of Nokia can't
rely on that. They have to check and then double check
for themselves, which is a slow process. Their lawyers
simply will not allow an unchecked release, because
otherwise some IP poachers could sue them for millions
of dollars due to "patent infringement". Given the
current (sorry) state of patent laws, this is
unfortunately the way it _has_ to go.

Anyway, I'm fairly confident that the next (or the one
after that) SW release will support OGG. Until then
I'll just use this proggie to play my OGGs.


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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Eero Tamminen]

Hi,

> What I wonder is that it seems FP is really slow on the
> Nokia770, although the ARM9 built in seems to support FP operations in
> hw. I am just a bit curious about that, any ideas why its still that
> slow?

Linux kernel has FPU emulation support (has actually had since 386 times)
which to user space looks like the real HW.  For ARM kernel there are
actually several alternatives for the FPU emulation...

- Eero
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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Nils Faerber]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Clemens Eisserer schrieb:
> Hello,
>>Of course it is not fast enough for the standard Ogg Vorbis
>>decoder. But there exists an integer-only version called
>>Tremor (http://www.xiph.org/vorbis/) which is usable on the
>>device.
> What I wonder is that it seems FP is really slow on the Nokia770,
> although the ARM9 built in seems to support FP operations in hw.
> I am just a bit curious about that, any ideas why its still that slow?
> Take the fp-instructions that much cycles?

I am quite sure that the ARM9 does not support FP at all. What is IMHO
supported are some FP traps that would trap into kernel or other FP
software implementations. But that dies not speed up anything. There is
to my knowledge no embedded CPU that has hw FP built in.

All software FP implementations are of course very CPU intensive. You
have to calculate the FP result in software which takes several hundred
cycles while in hardware it would only take just a few cycles. So FP on
emebdded devices will probably always be dead slow - at least for the
next future.

Concerning OGG the Vorbis people took integer only into account from the
very early beginning of the development. As a result the finaly codec
was quite easy to be optimised for integer, the result is Tremor which
was released just a few weeks after final OGG/Vorbis release.

Concerning the 770 the integer version could be a first start for having
OGG capabilities at all. The OMAP DSP device is open to a certain
extend. The tools to develop code for it are freely available, some
documentation is too. The DSP in the 770 is controlled by the also free
DSP gateway project. So there is no big reason why there cannot be a
free DSP OGG code any time in the near future. I guess on of the major
problems here is that developing code for DSPs is not very well known in
the open source community... on the other that could be a very
interesting software project ;)

> lg Clemens
Cheers
  nils faerber

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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Clemens Eisserer]

Hello,

> Of course it is not fast enough for the standard Ogg Vorbis
> decoder. But there exists an integer-only version called
> Tremor (http://www.xiph.org/vorbis/) which is usable on the
> device.
What I wonder is that it seems FP is really slow on the Nokia770,
although the ARM9 built in seems to support FP operations in hw.
I am just a bit curious about that, any ideas why its still that slow?
Take the fp-instructions that much cycles?

lg Clemens
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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Koen Kooi]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Zeeshan Ali wrote:
> Hey buddies,
> 
> 
>>Nonsense, gst-plugin-ivorbis has been around for a while now. The only
>>problem is that the gstreamer people forget to apply small API tweaks
>>every time gstreamer gets improved. Cristian has mentioned
>>(http://blogs.gnome.org/view/uraeus/2005/10/28/0) that they will port
>>ivorbis to gstreamer 0.9.
> 
> 
>'small' API tweaks? Are you familliar with the changes between 0.8
> and 0.9 for plugin writers?

I was getting at 0.8. The ivorbis plugin doesn't play nice with playbin,
while other plugins do (the mad one). This is currently stopping GPE
from having reliable ogg support on arm based handhelds.
The main point of my reply was: there is an ivorbis plugin, so stop
saying it doesn't exist.

regards,

Koen

> 
> --
> Regards,
> 
> Zeeshan Ali
> 

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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Zeeshan Ali]

Hey buddies,

> Nonsense, gst-plugin-ivorbis has been around for a while now. The only
> problem is that the gstreamer people forget to apply small API tweaks
> every time gstreamer gets improved. Cristian has mentioned
> (http://blogs.gnome.org/view/uraeus/2005/10/28/0) that they will port
> ivorbis to gstreamer 0.9.

   'small' API tweaks? Are you familliar with the changes between 0.8
and 0.9 for plugin writers?

--
Regards,

Zeeshan Ali
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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Koen Kooi]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Martin Grimme wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Am Sonntag, den 30.10.2005, 11:10 + schrieb Clemens Eisserer:
> 
>>Wow, really great someone is really doing it finally, although I can't
>>really underand why they did not include it in the default
>>distribution - ogg is THE next generation audio compression format.
>>I am looking excited foreward to test the first version!
> 
> 
> I think the reason why Nokia didn't support Ogg until now was that
> the standard Ogg decoder heavily relies on floating point operations
> and is thus way too slow on the Nokia 770. The alternative integer-only
> decoder Tremor doesn't have a gstreamer plugin yet.


Nonsense, gst-plugin-ivorbis has been around for a while now. The only
problem is that the gstreamer people forget to apply small API tweaks
every time gstreamer gets improved. Cristian has mentioned
(http://blogs.gnome.org/view/uraeus/2005/10/28/0) that they will port
ivorbis to gstreamer 0.9.

regards,

Koen

> 
> 
> 
>>Personally I do not care which project is used as basis as long as:
>>- The package does not use too much flash space when installed (< 3mb or so)
>>- Can handle playlists
>>- Would be great to have: volume management using the dedicated buttons ;-)
> 
> 
> I have a player like this in mind. :)
> But I also wouldn't mind Nokia porting the Tremor decoder to the DSP. ;)
> 
> 
> Regards, Martin
> 
> 
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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Lassi Syrjälä]

Martin Grimme kirjoitti 30.10.2005 kello 13.21:


The gstreamer guys also tested Ogg on the device, but by using
the standard plugin, which is too slow. Currently there is
no plugin which uses Tremor, but Christian Schaller wrote in
his blog that they will be working on it.


Hi,

I think there is an "ivorbis" plugin for gstreamer 0.8 series (used  
in the 770)
already. If the plugin cross-compiles, having ARM-side ogg support  
might only
be a matter of modifying the configuration accordingly (such as  
registering

the plugin, a new mimetype and an appropriate pipeline).

BR,
Lassi
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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Frédéric Crozat]

Le dimanche 30 octobre 2005 à 11:10 +, Clemens Eisserer a écrit :
> Wow, really great someone is really doing it finally, although I can't
> really underand why they did not include it in the default
> distribution - ogg is THE next generation audio compression format.
> I am looking excited foreward to test the first version!

It is quite simple : Nokia folks explained it during their presentation
at GUADEC : they didn't had time to implement both MP3 and OGG, so they
decided to do MP3 support first, because it is still the most used audio
format by average users. Same idea for video, which is forcing N770 to
use both Real Helix and Gstreamer in the video player, because they
needed Real suppport. Of course, Nokia developers really wanted to
support open formats but those were not a priority, which is quite
understandable when you think they want to do a successful product for
everybody, not only free software geeks..

-- 
Frédéric Crozat - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Martin Grimme]

Hi,

Am Sonntag, den 30.10.2005, 11:10 + schrieb Clemens Eisserer:
> Wow, really great someone is really doing it finally, although I can't
> really underand why they did not include it in the default
> distribution - ogg is THE next generation audio compression format.
> I am looking excited foreward to test the first version!

I think the reason why Nokia didn't support Ogg until now was that
the standard Ogg decoder heavily relies on floating point operations
and is thus way too slow on the Nokia 770. The alternative integer-only
decoder Tremor doesn't have a gstreamer plugin yet.


> Personally I do not care which project is used as basis as long as:
> - The package does not use too much flash space when installed (< 3mb or so)
> - Can handle playlists
> - Would be great to have: volume management using the dedicated buttons ;-)

I have a player like this in mind. :)
But I also wouldn't mind Nokia porting the Tremor decoder to the DSP. ;)


Regards, Martin


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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Martin Grimme]

Hello,

Am Sonntag, den 30.10.2005, 01:28 -0200 schrieb Gustavo Sverzut
Barbieri:

> Are you using GStreamer OGG or what? If not, why not?
> 
> A oggsink, in the same way mp3sink acts, would rock!

Currently, I'm not using gstreamer. My Ogg player was just a
proof of concept to see whether the Nokia 770 is fast enough
to decode Ogg Vorbis or not.
Of course it is not fast enough for the standard Ogg Vorbis
decoder. But there exists an integer-only version called
Tremor (http://www.xiph.org/vorbis/) which is usable on the
device.
The best way, however, would be utilizing the DSP for
decoding in order to decrease CPU load (constantly 20% is
a lot and drains battery). The DSP is already used for
decoding MP3 and MPEG4, so Nokia should be able to provide
Ogg support as well.
The gstreamer guys also tested Ogg on the device, but by using
the standard plugin, which is too slow. Currently there is
no plugin which uses Tremor, but Christian Schaller wrote in
his blog that they will be working on it.


Regards, Martin


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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Clemens Eisserer]

Wow, really great someone is really doing it finally, although I can't
really underand why they did not include it in the default
distribution - ogg is THE next generation audio compression format.
I am looking excited foreward to test the first version!

Personally I do not care which project is used as basis as long as:
- The package does not use too much flash space when installed (< 3mb or so)
- Can handle playlists
- Would be great to have: volume management using the dedicated buttons ;-)

lg Clemens

> > I have written a little program which can fluently play OGG Vorbis
> > files on the device. This shows that OGG support is technically
> > possible and, by utilizing the DSP, it could even be implemented more
> > efficient. My CPU-only implementation causes about 20% CPU load for
> > playing in CD quality.
> >
> > I'm going to add a little GUI and provide an installer package
> > for my OGG player soon.
>
> Are you using GStreamer OGG or what? If not, why not?
>
> A oggsink, in the same way mp3sink acts, would rock!
>
> --
> Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
> ---
> Computer Engineer 2001 - UNICAMP
> GPSL - Grupo Pro Software Livre
> Cell..: +55 (19) 9165 8010
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Re: [maemo-developers] OGG support

[Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri]

On 10/29/05, Martin Grimme <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I have written a little program which can fluently play OGG Vorbis
> files on the device. This shows that OGG support is technically
> possible and, by utilizing the DSP, it could even be implemented more
> efficient. My CPU-only implementation causes about 20% CPU load for
> playing in CD quality.
>
> I'm going to add a little GUI and provide an installer package
> for my OGG player soon.

Are you using GStreamer OGG or what? If not, why not?

A oggsink, in the same way mp3sink acts, would rock!

--
Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri
---
Computer Engineer 2001 - UNICAMP
GPSL - Grupo Pro Software Livre
Cell..: +55 (19) 9165 8010
Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[maemo-developers] OGG support

[Martin Grimme]

Hello,

I have written a little program which can fluently play OGG Vorbis
files on the device. This shows that OGG support is technically
possible and, by utilizing the DSP, it could even be implemented more
efficient. My CPU-only implementation causes about 20% CPU load for
playing in CD quality.

I'm going to add a little GUI and provide an installer package
for my OGG player soon.


Regards, Martin


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