Re: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[James Sparenberg]

On Tuesday 13 February 2007 01:46:29 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >> I'd like to point out that the buttons are located where they are
> >> based on the results of testing with real people, right and left
> >> handed. There are so many different ways the people hold and use the
> >> device, this is something you have to see to believe. I'm all for
> >> moving the buttons to the other side (and no, I'm *not* left-handed).
> >
> >So either there should be buttons on both sides or the device
> >should allow rotation upside down so you can choose which side
> >you prefer.
> >
> >Looks like the solution chosen instead was to give up and
> >ignore the problem completely :-)
>
> Or prehaps that we do not have a "problem" but a variety of personal
> preferences that lead us to the usual "can't suit them all" situation ;)
>
> --jakub
>

Jakub,

   I vote for the "can't make them all happy" column.  Fits an old army saying 
a happy private is a griping private. *grin*

James
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Re: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Frantisek Dufka]

Bastien Nocera napsal(a):

On Tue, 2007-02-13 at 11:43 -0600, Paul Klapperich wrote:

On 2/13/07, Bastien Nocera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Do you see any console joypads from Sony or Microsoft with the

arrows on
the left, and main buttons on the right?

You're a righty, aren't you? :-D


Ya ;)


And it shows. Joypad on game console is quite different. Personally I 
have no problems with this on my Xbox or Zodiac. The two types of 
controls on sides are not that much different and can be used with both 
hands. Stylus and buttons are very different. Stylus is like pen, you 
are even supposed to write with it (hwr recognition) but even pointing 
precisely is harder with the wrong hand. Can you write with your left 
hand? Or use stylus with your nokia constantly with your left hand? Try 
it and you will feel the pain twice (both for keys and stylus).





That's an entirely different thing. I'm not expected to hold a stylus
and write/point with it  in my right hand, or hold a stylus AND
activate buttons all with my left hand on a console. 


Stylus, yeah. The previous points were about moving the buttons to a
different side, which wouldn't really help anyway.

No, in fact you missed the point completely. Re-read what Paul said. 
Usable buttons on the other side would help a lot.

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[maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Neil MacLeod]

Bastien Nocera wrote:

Stylus, yeah. The previous points were about moving the buttons to a
different side, which wouldn't really help anyway.



Buttons on the left are fine if the screen can be rotated, but of course screen 
rotation isn't supported. However once the screen is rotated the top buttons 
become less accessible as they are now on the bottom, but this may still be OK.

Without screen rotation the device needs buttons on the right to accommodate 
lefties - which is easier to implement, more buttons or screen rotation? :)

I originally raised the subject of left handed-ness when proposing the position 
for a scroll wheel in one of the top shoulders - for a rightie, this would be 
ideal in the left shoulder to allow one handed scrolling. Of course for a 
leftie this is a terrible location once the device is rotated 180 degrees... 
you'd need a second scroll wheel in the bottom left corner of the device too! :)

Maybe there is no solution, but such obvious right-handed bias annoys me - and 
I'm a right hander (thankfully!) In the UK and Europe there are all sorts of 
laws that prevent discrimination based on disability, sex, colour, age... why 
is such obvious discrimination against left handers in society tolerated?

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Re: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Bastien Nocera]

On Tue, 2007-02-13 at 11:43 -0600, Paul Klapperich wrote:
> On 2/13/07, Bastien Nocera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Do you see any console joypads from Sony or Microsoft with the
> arrows on
> the left, and main buttons on the right?
> 
> You're a righty, aren't you? :-D

Ya ;)

> That's an entirely different thing. I'm not expected to hold a stylus
> and write/point with it  in my right hand, or hold a stylus AND
> activate buttons all with my left hand on a console. 

Stylus, yeah. The previous points were about moving the buttons to a
different side, which wouldn't really help anyway.

-- 
Bastien Nocera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

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Re: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Paul Klapperich]

On 2/13/07, Bastien Nocera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Do you see any console joypads from Sony or Microsoft with the arrows on
the left, and main buttons on the right?



You're a righty, aren't you? :-D

That's an entirely different thing. I'm not expected to hold a stylus and
write/point with it  in my right hand, or hold a stylus AND activate buttons
all with my left hand on a console.

The issue is not that my left hand is so stupid as to be unable to operate
buttons or a joystick on my XBox. The issue is that my right hand is to
stupid to operate the stylus and my left had doesn't have enough fingers to
do everything all at once.

FYI, I do operate a right handed mouse because it's just easier. I use the
standard WASD/right hand mouse for computer gaming. I just can't do pen type
operations with my right hand. Why don't you try doing that with your left
hand? Bet you can't!

--Paul
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[maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Neil MacLeod]

Bastien Nocera wrote:

Do you see any console joypads from Sony or Microsoft with the arrows on
the left, and main buttons on the right?



No, and I bet they're real fun to play for lefties. :) Does that mean it's 
right, er, correct though?

I do remember the old Atari Lynx worked for both left and right handers - it 
had screen rotation and a symmetrical design.

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Re: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Bastien Nocera]

On Tue, 2007-02-13 at 16:51 +, Neil MacLeod wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Or prehaps that we do not have a "problem" but a variety of personal
> > preferences that lead us to the usual "can't suit them all" situation ;)
> > 
> > --jakub
> 
> I'd like to meet the "real people" who gave feedback on the N800 - not
> only have they given away the vital hard-case, but they're either all
> right-handed or only weakly left-handed! :)
> 
> Placing the buttons on one side cannot be satisfactory for both left
> and right handed users - such a decision clearly expresses a bias to
> one group or the other. The argument "it works for both" isn't
> logical, and in practice such decisions rarely work well in the real
> world - this is a prime example.


Do you see any console joypads from Sony or Microsoft with the arrows on
the left, and main buttons on the right?

-- 
Bastien Nocera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 

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[maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Neil MacLeod]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Or prehaps that we do not have a "problem" but a variety of personal
preferences that lead us to the usual "can't suit them all" situation ;)

--jakub


I'd like to meet the "real people" who gave feedback on the N800 - not only 
have they given away the vital hard-case, but they're either all right-handed or only 
weakly left-handed! :)

Placing the buttons on one side cannot be satisfactory for both left and right handed 
users - such a decision clearly expresses a bias to one group or the other. The argument 
"it works for both" isn't logical, and in practice such decisions rarely work 
well in the real world - this is a prime example.

The N800 (and also the 770) design is biased towards right handed people, and 
gives no concession to lefties. Lets face it, the software doesn't even support 
left handed people either as there is no RandR support - this wouldn't be hard 
to implement as a standard feature.

I'm not proposing that Nokia are sued for completely ignoring the requirements 
of a substantial proportion of the worlds population, but eventually I hope 
*someone* is sued and maybe then firms like Nokia will take note and design 
products accordingly.

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[maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Zoran Kolic]

> >So either there should be buttons on both sides or the device 
> >should allow rotation upside down so you can choose which side 
> >you prefer.
> >
> >Looks like the solution chosen instead was to give up and 
> >ignore the problem completely :-)
> 
> Or prehaps that we do not have a "problem" but a variety of personal
> preferences that lead us to the usual "can't suit them all" situation ;)

As right-handed, I don't have any problem. But all those left-handed do.
It is not the point to help them imidiately. Just admit they really have
something to say.

Zoran


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RE: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Jakub.Pavelek]

>> I'd like to point out that the buttons are located where they are 
>> based on the results of testing with real people, right and left 
>> handed. There are so many different ways the people hold and use the 
>> device, this is something you have to see to believe. I'm all for 
>> moving the buttons to the other side (and no, I'm *not* left-handed).
>> 
>
>So either there should be buttons on both sides or the device 
>should allow rotation upside down so you can choose which side 
>you prefer.
>
>Looks like the solution chosen instead was to give up and 
>ignore the problem completely :-)

Or prehaps that we do not have a "problem" but a variety of personal
preferences that lead us to the usual "can't suit them all" situation ;)

--jakub
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Re: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Frantisek Dufka]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I'd like to point out that the buttons are located where they are based
on the results of testing with real people, right and left handed. There
are so many different ways the people hold and use the device, this is
something you have to see to believe. I'm all for moving the buttons to
the other side (and no, I'm *not* left-handed).



So either there should be buttons on both sides or the device should 
allow rotation upside down so you can choose which side you prefer.


Looks like the solution chosen instead was to give up and ignore the 
problem completely :-)


Frantisek
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RE: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Jakub.Pavelek]

>On Monday 12 February 2007 13:06:45 Frantisek Dufka wrote:
>> Neil MacLeod wrote:
>> > I think Nokia need to give more
>> > consideration to left-handed users - lefties should consider class 
>> > action suits against big corps citing discrimination and 
>access issues!
>> > :)
>>
>> Yes, someone in US please do sue them :-) I am left handed myself so 
>> my opinion is of course very strong on this.
>> I was really quite shocked that after N770 they actually dared to 
>> design second device with all butons on left side again. Simply 
>> unbelievable to me.
>>
>> Frantisek
>
>The one thing I find interesting is that lefties have so much 
>trouble.  I find the buttons on the left unusable as I have to 
>put the 'pointer' in my mouth grab with right hand, partially 
>release the left hand grip to move thumb to buttons.  But then 
>again I may just be weird.  From my view it was friendlier to 
>a lefty as you never have to switch holding hands.
>
>James

I'd like to point out that the buttons are located where they are based
on the results of testing with real people, right and left handed. There
are so many different ways the people hold and use the device, this is
something you have to see to believe. I'm all for moving the buttons to
the other side (and no, I'm *not* left-handed).

--jakub
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Re: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Henri Bergius]

On 2/12/07, Mike Lococo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Continued expansion of the form factor makes me very unhappy.  I wish
they'd have left the stereo speakers off the N800 and tightened up the
form factor, and redundant buttons would make me very sad.


I might be the only one, but I'm actually quite happy about the stereo
speakers. N800 is already starting to replace the iPod for me, and the
speakers mean I don't need to carry travel speakers if I want to
listen to music in a hotel room for example.

Considering for example the portable devices I took for the Death
Monkey (www.deathmonkey.org) trip where space was very difficult to
have, N800 replaces three devices out of four:

* Nokia 770 for web browsing and navigation with Maemo Mapper
* N90 for calling, taking pictures and blogging with LifeBlog (I don't
think we had Maemo Blog then)
* iPod for portable music
* Travel speakers

Without the need to carry iPod and speakers around I would probably
now take the N800 and a proper camera, and replace the N90 with a
smaller phone that would mostly act only as a Bluetooth modem.
Blogging would now happen with the on-screen keyboard of the N800
instead of the phone's numeric pad.

But then again, I guess this is not the kind of scenario everybody
feels connected with ;-)


Mike


/Henri

--
Henri Bergius
Motorcycle adventures and Open Source Software
http://bergie.iki.fi/

Skype: henribergius
Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Frantisek Dufka]

James Sparenberg wrote:
The one thing I find interesting is that lefties have so much trouble.  I find 
the buttons on the left unusable as I have to put the 'pointer' in my mouth 
grab with right hand, partially release the left hand grip to move thumb to 
buttons.  But then again I may just be weird.  From my view it was friendlier 
to a lefty as you never have to switch holding hands.


Well I guess you could operate buttons with your left hand as it doesn't 
need too much precision. I just tried to put my n770 upside down and try 
buttons with my right hand and it doesn't feel bad to me.


However using the pen in righ hand is very hard for me as it often needs 
precise aiming. A a result I hold it in my left hand and that prevents 
me from using the buttons at all at the same time.

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[maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Neil MacLeod]

Marius Gedminas wrote:

On Mon, Feb 12, 2007 at 09:02:43PM +0100, Frantisek Dufka wrote:
What is annoying is that links that open in new windows (which is by
itself already annoying) trigger twice if I open them with the D-pad
center key.  To clarify: a tap on such a link consistenly gives me one
new window, while the Enter key, no matter how short the press, always
gives me two new windows.

I should go to the bugzilla and file a bug.  And also check if the bug
is still present on the N800.

Marius Gedminas



Marius - sounds like this bug: https://maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=579

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Re: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[James Sparenberg]

On Monday 12 February 2007 13:06:45 Frantisek Dufka wrote:
> Neil MacLeod wrote:
> > I think Nokia need to give more
> > consideration to left-handed users - lefties should consider class
> > action suits against big corps citing discrimination and access issues!
> > :)
>
> Yes, someone in US please do sue them :-)
> I am left handed myself so my opinion is of course very strong on this.
> I was really quite shocked that after N770 they actually dared to design
> second device with all butons on left side again. Simply unbelievable to
> me.
>
> Frantisek

The one thing I find interesting is that lefties have so much trouble.  I find 
the buttons on the left unusable as I have to put the 'pointer' in my mouth 
grab with right hand, partially release the left hand grip to move thumb to 
buttons.  But then again I may just be weird.  From my view it was friendlier 
to a lefty as you never have to switch holding hands.

James
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Re: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Mike Lococo]

Or let them figure out that buttons on both sides (with key 
customization in control panel) are useful for all. And that will make 
both righties and lefties very happy!


Continued expansion of the form factor makes me very unhappy.  I wish 
they'd have left the stereo speakers off the N800 and tightened up the 
form factor, and redundant buttons would make me very sad.


I'm a lefty and I haven't quite figured out why this bothers everyone 
else and not me.  Maybe it's that there are few functions that the 
buttons provide that don't have strong alternatives within the 
touchscreen interface, maybe I just have a higher tolerance for 
inconvenience than your average southpaw.


As far as proposed solutions, I think elegant symmetrical hardware 
design that allows full access in right-handed or left-handed modes 
would be fantastic for the next hardware iteration.  I frown on any 
proposed solution that expands the form-factor, though.


Thanks,
Mike
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Re: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Erik Hovland]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2007 at 01:12:50PM -0800, Mike Klein wrote:
> As a lefty I must say this  was a bit of a peeve
> 
> But in reality you don't need "precision" to point a stylus and/or tap
> keystrokesso I've switched rather than FIGHT.
> 
> Works well enough...although switching hands takes some getting used to.

When you are part of the minority, you learn quickly to adapt. Being a
left on many a device that is slightly right-handed biased, I feel
everyone's pain.

I have not gone as far as switch the preferred stylus hand. I prefer to
grab the page w/ my stylus and drag it up or down about a page. This
works pretty well in opera. Fortunately, because using the stylus in the
left hand and hitting the scrollbar is very uncomfortable. I wouldn't
mind the N800 have a personal preference for scrollbars on the left
instead of the right.

There is a bug about lefties:
https://maemo.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=100

I know that 1/5th of the global population is lefty. I wonder what the
current population breakdown is for this list is?

E

-- 
Erik Hovland
mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://hovland.org/
PGP/GPG public key available on request

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Re: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Frantisek Dufka]

Jae Stutzman wrote:
I'm also a lefty...but enjoy every opportunity to use my right hand as 
well. It makes us smarter! 


Yes, that's the positive attitude. But it is hard to keep that attitude 
when trying to type on virtual keyboard with stylus in right hand :-)


All suing will do is make Nokia delay the 
launch of the N990 in the US, and that will make both righties and 
lefties unhappy!


Or let them figure out that buttons on both sides (with key 
customization in control panel) are useful for all. And that will make 
both righties and lefties very happy!


Frantisek
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Re: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Jae Stutzman]

I'm also a lefty...but enjoy every opportunity to use my right hand as well.
It makes us smarter! All suing will do is make Nokia delay the launch of the
N990 in the US, and that will make both righties and lefties unhappy!

Jae
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Re: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Mike Klein]

As a lefty I must say this  was a bit of a peeve

But in reality you don't need "precision" to point a stylus and/or tap
keystrokesso I've switched rather than FIGHT.

Works well enough...although switching hands takes some getting used to.


mike (flashing back to green scissors in k'garten and getting spanked
for being lefty) klein


Frantisek Dufka wrote:
> Neil MacLeod wrote:
>> I think Nokia need to give more consideration to left-handed users -
>> lefties should consider class action suits against big corps citing
>> discrimination and access issues! :)
>
> Yes, someone in US please do sue them :-)
> I am left handed myself so my opinion is of course very strong on
> this. I was really quite shocked that after N770 they actually dared
> to design second device with all butons on left side again. Simply
> unbelievable to me.
>
> Frantisek
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Re: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Frantisek Dufka]

Neil MacLeod wrote:
I think Nokia need to give more 
consideration to left-handed users - lefties should consider class 
action suits against big corps citing discrimination and access issues! :)


Yes, someone in US please do sue them :-)
I am left handed myself so my opinion is of course very strong on this. 
I was really quite shocked that after N770 they actually dared to design 
second device with all butons on left side again. Simply unbelievable to me.


Frantisek
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Re: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Jonathan Greene]

On 2/12/07, Ted Zlatanov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

(someone on the #maemo channel mentioned the E90 has the same
processor and memory as the N800...  hmmm...)


The E90 will also run about $1000 without carrier subsidy when it's
released in Q3... yikes.  Those hinges and double-screen (not too
mention the keyboard) looks awesome though.


--
Jonathan Greene
m 917.560.3000
AIM / iChat - atmasphere
gtalk / jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gizmo - JonathanGreene
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Re: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Acadia Secure Networks]

Ted,

I too like the idea of a keyboard. I have a UTStarcom 6700 and the 
keyboard is of the slide out variety which works very well.  Here is the 
url to a www page at the UTStarcom www site that shows an image of the 
unit with the keyboard slid out:


   
http://www.utstar.com/PCD/view_phone_details.aspx?mcode=PPC6700&bID=30&sAct=0



This keyboard design gets generally good reviews from users however one 
problem with it is  that keying in numerics is a pain because it 
requires a special key + the selected number. Also, given the handset's 
form factor, the keyboard is a bit small for those with large hands/fingers.



Best Regards,



John Holmblad



Acadia Secure Networks

GSEC Gold, GCWN Gold, GGSC-0100, NSA-IAM, NSA-IEM
serving the digital home, entrepreneurial enterprise, and emerging 
carrier markets




(M) 703 407 2278

(F)  703 620 5388

primary email address:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

backup email address:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:08:51 + Neil MacLeod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 


NM> Positioning the wheel on the top left or top right shoulders of
NM> the device would work for me (as I'm right handed) but this would
NM> not work at all for a left-handed person who has to rotate the
NM> screen 180 degrees for comfortable use (secondary wheel in the
NM> bottom right corner?)  I think Nokia need to give more
NM> consideration to left-handed users

I agree that lefties get worse usability in general.  The 770 and N800
are not usable with the left hand holding the stylus; I wrote about
this to the list before.  The solution, IMHO, is to provide a flip-out
keyboard that would make the stylus less necessary, and text input
easier.  If the 9000, 9500, 9300, and E90 can do it, why not the
N800++?  The keyboard would also, when closed, protect that nice
screen.

(someone on the #maemo channel mentioned the E90 has the same
processor and memory as the N800...  hmmm...)

Ted
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Re: [maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 20:08:51 + Neil MacLeod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 

NM> Positioning the wheel on the top left or top right shoulders of
NM> the device would work for me (as I'm right handed) but this would
NM> not work at all for a left-handed person who has to rotate the
NM> screen 180 degrees for comfortable use (secondary wheel in the
NM> bottom right corner?)  I think Nokia need to give more
NM> consideration to left-handed users

I agree that lefties get worse usability in general.  The 770 and N800
are not usable with the left hand holding the stylus; I wrote about
this to the list before.  The solution, IMHO, is to provide a flip-out
keyboard that would make the stylus less necessary, and text input
easier.  If the 9000, 9500, 9300, and E90 can do it, why not the
N800++?  The keyboard would also, when closed, protect that nice
screen.

(someone on the #maemo channel mentioned the E90 has the same
processor and memory as the N800...  hmmm...)

Ted
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[maemo-users] Re: suggestion for next Nokia tablet

[Neil MacLeod]

Ted Zlatanov wrote:

The N800 successor should have a scroll wheel on the side.  It would
make 90% of my daily stylus use (while browsing the web and reading
RSS feeds) unnecessary.  Unlike the D pad, scrolling should be purely
a mouse button 4/5 operation, not "move to the next link OR the next
page, UNLESS I hold the button down", which is why I don't use the D
pad for scrolling.  It's just too hard to go to the next page, which
is a very common operation.

Ted

I totally agree that a scroll/jog wheel is essential
for vertical scrolling, which may translate into previous/next page 
functionality depending on the application etc.

Obviously the wheel can be used to select (push in) and even perform horizontal 
scrolling by tilting the wheel, but that depends on how creative Nokia want to 
get on this. Positioning the wheel on the top left or top right shoulders of 
the device would work for me (as I'm right handed) but this would not work at 
all for a left-handed person who has to rotate the screen 180 degrees for 
comfortable use (secondary wheel in the bottom right corner?) I think Nokia 
need to give more consideration to left-handed users - lefties should consider 
class action suits against big corps citing discrimination and access issues! :)

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