Re: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade
On 27/03/07, Dr. Nicholas Shaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What bothers me IS the checkbox. What concerns me about the legal statement is this: snip I think we should stop wasting time on things like this that really don't matter and concentrate on things that do. In my experience anything that involves legal takes ages and is very difficult to change and I think Nokia just want to avoid having to warrant the device to work with any software. We've already seen that installing software can make your device broken requiring it to be re-flashed so it seems like a reasonable precaution. Personally I think Nokia are doing a great job of creating a device that can be used by open source. Regards, Michael ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade
Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote: - I don't get a similar statement on a Palm device when I install non-Palm software (it's an OS, people install software). - I don't get a similar statement on a Windows mobile device when I install non-Windows software. - I don't get a similar statement on my cell phone when I install non-vendor software. Thus, what makes the tablet different? I think it is slightly different since in all those examples you have simple way to recover because the basic system is in ROM and undamaged and you can do 'hard reset' clearing RAM and system boots. On the tablet you can remove/break even system files since they are mixed with user stuff in same filesystem. The only way to recover is to flash device over USB cable which is a bit harder and you need to download firmware and flasher. So all those devices are self-repairing, nokia tablet is not. I'm not sure this make some legal difference but technically there is such difference. Frantisek ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
RE: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade
Hmmm... That's an interesting point and one obviously one that is shared by Nokia. My point is simply this - what one person finds a waste of time is not by another. I also commend Nokia for their attention to this forum. That participation does not, however, alter my concerns or issues. Nick Shaw -Original Message- From: Michael Thompson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 1:05 AM To: Dr. Nicholas Shaw Cc: Neil MacLeod; maemo-users@maemo.org Subject: Re: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade On 27/03/07, Dr. Nicholas Shaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What bothers me IS the checkbox. What concerns me about the legal statement is this: snip I think we should stop wasting time on things like this that really don't matter and concentrate on things that do. In my experience anything that involves legal takes ages and is very difficult to change and I think Nokia just want to avoid having to warrant the device to work with any software. We've already seen that installing software can make your device broken requiring it to be re-flashed so it seems like a reasonable precaution. Personally I think Nokia are doing a great job of creating a device that can be used by open source. Regards, Michael ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
RE: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade
I hear what you're saying; however, I'm not certain the result is valid. While you're correct that all of them can be reset, applications can still cause them to fail. For example, without all the applications I run installed, the Palm T3 stays up-and-running without effort. With all the applications, it fails at least once a day. It took me a week to track down the specific program. In short, yes, the way the OS' are implemented is different but the effects of errant applications can be the same. Regards, Nick Shaw -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Frantisek Dufka Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 1:18 AM To: Dr. Nicholas Shaw Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org Subject: Re: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote: - I don't get a similar statement on a Palm device when I install non-Palm software (it's an OS, people install software). - I don't get a similar statement on a Windows mobile device when I install non-Windows software. - I don't get a similar statement on my cell phone when I install non-vendor software. Thus, what makes the tablet different? I think it is slightly different since in all those examples you have simple way to recover because the basic system is in ROM and undamaged and you can do 'hard reset' clearing RAM and system boots. On the tablet you can remove/break even system files since they are mixed with user stuff in same filesystem. The only way to recover is to flash device over USB cable which is a bit harder and you need to download firmware and flasher. So all those devices are self-repairing, nokia tablet is not. I'm not sure this make some legal difference but technically there is such difference. Frantisek ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade
I think we should stop wasting time on things like this that really don't matter and concentrate on things that do. In my experience anything that involves legal takes ages and is very difficult to change Hmmm... That's an interesting point and one obviously one that is shared by Nokia. My point is simply this - what one person finds a waste of time is not by another. In spite of the wasting time comment, I don't think anyone is trying to say that this bug doesn't matter. It's been noted that the effort in fixing it is substantial (due to the involvement of legal), and it's a fact that there is a trivial workaround (clicking ok a few times when you flash the device). There are other bugs that that do not have trivial workarounds, some of them have been waiting for fixes much longer than this report. In a world with limited resources, not everything can get fixed right now. It's also worth noting that someone (marius?) offered to accept a patch to disable the dialog in red-pill mode. If the bug is very important to you or anyone else, they can create a fix or organize a bounty/sponsorship to encourage someone else to create one. Thanks, Mike ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
RE: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade
What bothers me IS the checkbox. What concerns me about the legal statement is this: - I don't get a similar statement on a Palm device when I install non-Palm software (it's an OS, people install software). - I don't get a similar statement on a Windows mobile device when I install non-Windows software. - I don't get a similar statement on my cell phone when I install non-vendor software. Thus, what makes the tablet different? It has an OS like the three device-types above. People are going to install software from a multitude of locations depending upon what is available and what their needs are. Regards, Nick Shaw -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Neil MacLeod Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 9:00 AM To: maemo-users@maemo.org Subject: Re: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade Quim Gil wrote: I'll try to explain. - I pick the most voted feature requests and I try to solve them. This implies that most of the time I'm dealing with issues I'm not expert of, but can help solving. - You would be surprised how little is my knowledge about what is going on inside the device. My skills are elsewhere. I might know better what is going on currently inside the development process, though. - We have generally good reasons when we say issue X is more complex than it seems, we will work on feature Y but not now, and things like that. We might be mistaken or we might have different opinions and this is why discussing is (almost) always positive, useful. - You deserve more and more precise feedback, but you deserve many things and we make our list of priorities as well. When I invest 1h in the 12/24h thing I'm not putting this time in other topics that are also done for your own good, and perhaps are more relevant now. - I have the 12/24h feature request assigned. I will comment progress there. Same thing with the rest of bugs/features assigned. Please submit a feature request about the legal OKs if you haven't done it. Keep going, you are doing great. It's a privilege to be here in this bright community. Thank you for this excellent post, Quim - I do appreciate it. It's heartening to hear there will be more Nokia involvement and comment in Bugzilla, it seems to be one of the more glaring issues that exists with the current community process (although Jakke and Jakub have posted from time to time, which is also appreciated). As for the Legal OKs, I'm not that bothered by them but for those that are would adding a Don't show this again checkbox to the dialog suffice and also be acceptable from a legal Nokia standpoint? ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade
Still no 12/24-hour clock. This has been discussed several times. A provisional conclusion is that a) Even if it sounds incredible we are following POSIX standards, and we did not create them. I remember posix standard from medieval times, following which all witches, that have object blinking, making sound or light, have to be burned to ash. c) Note, however, that the technical implementation that is obvious for desktop/laptop machines is not that obvious for small tiny devices with very limited resources. I am a little man. My 770 looks so giant to me! Conclusion of the conclusion: it's not that we don't care, we know but other things go first in the ToDo list. No need to start another thread, really. :) On this subject or entirely? Making upgrades as smooth as possible are a top priority. Filing bugs and feature requests in the maemo bugzilla is definitely helpful. Every person has his own priorities. That's good in this story. Zoran ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This has been discussed several times. A provisional conclusion is that a) Even if it sounds incredible we are following POSIX standards, and we did not create them. b) We will probably enable the possibility of users to select their preferred display. This won't come in the short term though (see c) c) Note, however, that the technical implementation that is obvious for desktop/laptop machines is not that obvious for small tiny devices with very limited resources. Conclusion of the conclusion: it's not that we don't care, we know but other things go first in the ToDo list. No need to start another thread, really. :) Neil MacLeod wrote: There are perfectly good bugs in Maemo Bugzilla for both time[1] and date[2] formatting deficiencies, yet I don't see any detail/comment from Nokia against these bugs. Rather than continue discussion in the newsgroup, would it make more sense for Nokia to provide input against the two bugs? While I agree that it's better to see this kind of response in the bug database (with an announcement/link posted to the mailing list on hotbutton issues like this), seeing it on the list is better than not seeing it at all. So Quim, count this as positive feedback regarding your active participation in the lists and your efforts to bring the straight story to light whenever possible. They are noticed and appreciated. I've pasted Quim's response into Bug #303 so folks that refer there will have this latest info. Thanks, Mike ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade
I'll try to explain. - I pick the most voted feature requests and I try to solve them. This implies that most of the time I'm dealing with issues I'm not expert of, but can help solving. - You would be surprised how little is my knowledge about what is going on inside the device. My skills are elsewhere. I might know better what is going on currently inside the development process, though. - We have generally good reasons when we say issue X is more complex than it seems, we will work on feature Y but not now, and things like that. We might be mistaken or we might have different opinions and this is why discussing is (almost) always positive, useful. - You deserve more and more precise feedback, but you deserve many things and we make our list of priorities as well. When I invest 1h in the 12/24h thing I'm not putting this time in other topics that are also done for your own good, and perhaps are more relevant now. - I have the 12/24h feature request assigned. I will comment progress there. Same thing with the rest of bugs/features assigned. Please submit a feature request about the legal OKs if you haven't done it. Keep going, you are doing great. It's a privilege to be here in this bright community. -- Quim Gil - http://maemo.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade
6. Still no 12/24-hour clock. Nokia, you’ve got to get this right. Due to daylight savings time changes that are different around the world, we can’t just select some other region that uses a 24-hour clock. This is standard on every version of Linux and actually required you to remove it. *Fix it*. 7. Control Panel no longer expands to full screen. *New bug*. 8. When using Navigation under the Control Panel, menu entries are now automatically sorted. 9. All Bluetooth devices will have to be re-paired. Those settings should have been saved and restored. *New bug*. This sort of update summary is very useful for the list, but when reporting bugs and confirming their presence in new OS versions you should create/update entries in the bug tracker. It is the canonical location for that type of information. https://maemo.org/bugzilla/ Thanks, Mike ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
RE: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade
Yes, Mike, I'm aware of that but felt they should be included here as well. Regards, Nick Shaw -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Lococo Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 10:53 AM To: maemo-users@maemo.org Subject: Re: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade 6. Still no 12/24-hour clock. Nokia, you've got to get this right. Due to daylight savings time changes that are different around the world, we can't just select some other region that uses a 24-hour clock. This is standard on every version of Linux and actually required you to remove it. *Fix it*. 7. Control Panel no longer expands to full screen. *New bug*. 8. When using Navigation under the Control Panel, menu entries are now automatically sorted. 9. All Bluetooth devices will have to be re-paired. Those settings should have been saved and restored. *New bug*. This sort of update summary is very useful for the list, but when reporting bugs and confirming their presence in new OS versions you should create/update entries in the bug tracker. It is the canonical location for that type of information. https://maemo.org/bugzilla/ Thanks, Mike ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade
On 3/23/07, Dr. Nicholas Shaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. Control Panel no longer expands to full screen. *New bug*. I'm using 2007 v 2.2006.51-6 and my control pane doesn't expand to full screen. I don't think it ever did. All Bluetooth devices will have to be re-paired. Those settings should have been saved and restored. I don't believe that information is saved in the by the backup utility. I seem to remember talk of updating the backup utility for the v3 release. It could be this is already fixed and won't happen next time. Regardless, future upgrades are supposed to be incremental and won't require reflashing. There really isn't anything that can be done for current users upgrading to V3 as the only way to get them a newer backup utility that saves pairing information would be to have them reflash to something like V3. Just thought I'd throw that out there... Thanks for the info, though! Didn't even realize it'd been released yet! --Paul ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade
The scroll bar is not visible in my web browser any more. Wha...? T. Message: 6 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:42:38 -0600 From: Dr. Nicholas Shaw Subject: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade To: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Here are my comments: 1. Update using the update tool was painless. You do require .Net 2.0 and the updater will tell you this. Go to the Nokia/support web site and download it using your Windows computer. I tried using the N800 and was unsuccessful each time. 2. The system didn't allow me to continue until the battery was full so charge it up. It says it takes ~20 minutes but mine was done in about half of that. 3. As soon as you complete the update, you'll be asked if you want to restore your settings from your backup (you'll be asked to perform a backup prior to updating). I found the settings to be properly restored, including my catalogs. 4. After re-installing the gpe-PIM suite, I ran one of the programs to see if all settings were there and, yes, all settings were intact as were all of my events. 5. Nokia, get rid of the warning each time a non-Nokia application is installed saying we're doing it at our own risk. Most of the applications we install don't come from Nokia and it's a nuisance to have to click each time. If, for legal reasons, you're required to have it - make it a setting in Application Manager to always select . 6. Still no 12/24-hour clock. Nokia, you've got to get this right. Due to daylight savings time changes that are different around the world, we can't just select some other region that uses a 24-hour clock. This is standard on every version of Linux and actually required you to remove it. Fix it. 7. Control Panel no longer expands to full screen. New bug. 8. When using Navigation under the Control Panel, menu entries are now automatically sorted. 9. All Bluetooth devices will have to be re-paired. Those settings should have been saved and restored. New bug. 10. All bookmarks were retained. I'm still going through and checking all my programs but so far all looks, except as noted above, good. Hopefully the N800 won't reboot as often as it did prior to this release. Regards, Nick Shaw --- Weblog ~ http://tim.samoff.com[1] Baby Blog ~ http://kc.samoff.com[2] Photography ~ http://www.flickr.com/photos/timsamoff[3] Music ~ http://www.adkoc.com[4] Links: -- [1] http://tim.samoff.com [2] http://kc.samoff.com [3] http://www.flickr.com/photos/timsamoff [4] http://www.adkoc.com ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
RE: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade
Thanks, Paul. Nick Shaw _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Klapperich Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 11:09 AM Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org Subject: Re: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade On 3/23/07, Dr. Nicholas Shaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. Control Panel no longer expands to full screen. New bug. I'm using 2007 v 2.2006.51-6 and my control pane doesn't expand to full screen. I don't think it ever did. All Bluetooth devices will have to be re-paired. Those settings should have been saved and restored. I don't believe that information is saved in the by the backup utility. I seem to remember talk of updating the backup utility for the v3 release. It could be this is already fixed and won't happen next time. Regardless, future upgrades are supposed to be incremental and won't require reflashing. There really isn't anything that can be done for current users upgrading to V3 as the only way to get them a newer backup utility that saves pairing information would be to have them reflash to something like V3. Just thought I'd throw that out there... Thanks for the info, though! Didn't even realize it'd been released yet! --Paul ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade
Just did the update via MacOS X using the 770Flasher.app and it worked flawlessly. My sources are intact and the Nokia immediately popped Bluetooth on which is a great start. Now to reinstall those apps and re-pair my phones, gps and keyboard... On 3/23/07, Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I changed themes and I got my scrool bar back! T. --- Weblog ~ http://tim.samoff.com Baby Blog ~ http://kc.samoff.com Photography ~ http://www.flickr.com/photos/timsamoff Music ~ http://www.adkoc.com - Original Message - Subject: Re: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade From: Tim [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] maemo-users@maemo.org,[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 03/23/2007 11:11 am The scroll bar is not visible in my web browser any more. Wha...? T. Message: 6 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:42:38 -0600 From: Dr. Nicholas Shaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: IT OS 2007 v.3 Upgrade To: maemo-users@maemo.org Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Here are my comments: 1. Update using the update tool was painless. You do require .Net 2.0 and the updater will tell you this. Go to the Nokia/support web site and download it using your Windows computer. I tried using the N800 and was unsuccessful each time. 2. The system didn't allow me to continue until the battery was full so charge it up. It says it takes ~20 minutes but mine was done in about half of that. 3. As soon as you complete the update, you'll be asked if you want to restore your settings from your backup (you'll be asked to perform a backup prior to updating). I found the settings to be properly restored, including my catalogs. 4. After re-installing the gpe-PIM suite, I ran one of the programs to see if all settings were there and, yes, all settings were intact as were all of my events. 5. Nokia, get rid of the warning each time a non-Nokia application is installed saying we're doing it at our own risk. Most of the applications we install don't come from Nokia and it's a nuisance to have to click Ok each time. If, for legal reasons, you're required to have it - make it a setting in Application Manager to always select Ok. 6. Still no 12/24-hour clock. Nokia, you've got to get this right. Due to daylight savings time changes that are different around the world, we can't just select some other region that uses a 24-hour clock. This is standard on every version of Linux and actually required you to remove it. Fix it. 7. Control Panel no longer expands to full screen. New bug. 8. When using Navigation under the Control Panel, menu entries are now automatically sorted. 9. All Bluetooth devices will have to be re-paired. Those settings should have been saved and restored. New bug. 10. All bookmarks were retained. I'm still going through and checking all my programs but so far all looks, except as noted above, good. Hopefully the N800 won't reboot as often as it did prior to this release. Regards, Nick Shaw --- Weblog ~ http://tim.samoff.com Baby Blog ~ http://kc.samoff.com Photography ~ http://www.flickr.com/photos/timsamoff Music ~ http://www.adkoc.com ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users -- Jonathan Greene m 917.560.3000 AIM / iChat - atmasphere gtalk / jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gizmo - JonathanGreene blogs - http://www.atmasphere.net/wp / http://www.maemoapps.com ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
