Re: N810 for $180
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:09:47AM +0200, Dave Neary wrote: Hi, Jamie Bennett wrote: On 15 Jun 2009, at 21:41, Mark wolfm...@gmail.com wrote: Please guys, not every thread on maemo-users has to be a shouting match. Mark, you've said your piece several times, don't feel obliged to repeat the same thing every time the N810 or the N900 come up on the list. Jamie, you don't have to take the bait. I can do without Yet Another 20 Mail Thread in my mailbox where after 2 or 3 emails no-one is saying anything new. This thread is still coming up with software package recommendations. -- hendrik ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
Dave Neary wrote: Mark, you've said your piece several times, don't feel obliged to repeat the same thing every time the N810 or the N900 come up on the list. That reminds me -- the N900 is supposed to include GPRS and HSPA but I don't see how that's any indication of it being more than a data device. Sure, it may be subsidized by carriers but so are a few net books now and they're not phones. Also, I don't see anything in the specs the Mobilecrunh released that are that different from the current gen IT (e.g. screen size, etc) that would make Freemantle unable to run on the N8X0 tablets. So where did the rumor start that it won't run on current hardware or is this just speculation based on the transition from the N770 to the N8X0? q.v. http://tr.im/oFOd -Gary ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Gary g...@eyetraxx.net wrote: That reminds me -- the N900 is supposed to include GPRS and HSPA but I don't see how that's any indication of it being more than a data device. Sure, it may be subsidized by carriers but so are a few net books now and they're not phones. Also, I don't see anything in the specs the Mobilecrunh released that are that different from the current gen IT (e.g. screen size, etc) that would make Freemantle unable to run on the N8X0 tablets. So where did the rumor start that it won't run on current hardware or is this just speculation based on the transition from the N770 to the N8X0? q.v. http://tr.im/oFOd -Gary ___ It's *not* a rumor. Even if the form factor is the same, the processor etc. is supposed to be completely different. That's why Freemantle won't run on the current tablets without being ported. Aren't the current tablets OMAP2? The new versions will be OMAP3 and have 3D graphics acceleration. See: http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Maemo_roadmap/Fremantle http://maemo.org/community/maemo-developers/re-n810_rip/?org_openpsa_qbpager_net_nemein_discussion_posts_page=1#09a93c54f11e11dda28bcbaa4b36da13da13 http://maemo.org/community/maemo-developers/re-n810_rip/?org_openpsa_qbpager_net_nemein_discussion_posts_page=1#19f89e38f11e11dd84e4951ddcd5c7fdc7fd Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
Mark wrote: Even if the form factor is the same, the processor etc. is supposed to be completely different. That's why Freemantle won't run on the current tablets without being ported. Aren't the current tablets OMAP2? The new versions will be OMAP3 and have 3D graphics acceleration. True enough. OMAP2 refers to the TI OMAP (Open Multimedia Application Platform) 2420 SoC whereas the N900 will allegedly ship with the OMAP 3430. I can't say I'm surprised by this development, though. Apple has a much larger install base with their PowerPC Mac users but the upcoming OS X Snow Leopard will not support PPC architecture. Granted, the N800 was released in Jan '07 and the N810 in October of the same year. So it sounds like Mer is the way to go for N8X0 users. q.v. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Instruments_OMAP and the previously posted link to Mer. -Gary ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
The SmartQ5 noted in the link below is one of those looks nice, but Close to vaporware, worked, but slow because of processor limitations. An updated version supposedly has the same limits, but tweaks the size. http://www.dhgate.com/wholesale/smartq.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture. Seems there's currently an ARM processor speed wall for handheld devices that hasn't been breached to any significant degree. It's likely this is what might be limiting the evolution of the next generation of handheld devices. Why come out with something new just for the sake of new, when it's performance has about the same limits as the current generation of devices, which generally are software, not hardware, defined? In small computing evolutionary terms, Netbooks originally were limited to around 800M Atom processors. Now they're up to 1.8G or perhaps higher with good battery life. As I understand it, the current generation of tablet devices run from 400M (n800) to a notch over 600M in speed (Ipod Touch), perhaps with burst capability that shortens battery life a bit (various phones and Iphone). Doubling speed to 1200 or higher in the next generation would seem to be a reasonable objective. In other words, developing a next generation of hand held devices is a work in progress with a hard limit -- it's kind of hard to put together a device without the hardware to work with. If the enabling hardware for speed improvement is a year or so out, a functional device is at least that far out. As for the notion that the next generation's OS will be incompatible with the current generation, IMHO, that's bunk. The hardware interface to the various devices will be different, but a screen will be a screen, sound sound, etc, etc. An appropriately designed OS (such as Ubuntu) should be able to handle most of these sorts of device compatibility issues without much problem -- assuming the necessary info for (legacy) device interfaces is provided by Nokia. Purposefully orphaning a moderately developed stage of device evolution (such as the n800) is a management decision that, IMHO, would be poor decision. Legacy support would seem to be easy to provide and would promote and endear an important software support base that could greatly speed future device evolution as well as support those of the past. Always, Fred C Luca Olivetti wrote: En/na Peter Flynn ha escrit: So maybe I should have been more precise in my original question: Is there (or will there be soon) a pocket computer from some manufacturer (not necessarily Nokia) running a Unix-type OS of some description (not necessarily Maemo) that is broadly speaking a suitable replacement device for an N800/N810 user wanting an upgrade? I'm not sure it's more powerful than the n800 but it seems nice: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=27433 Bye No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.70/2177 - Release Date: 06/15/09 05:54:00 ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
So say the rumors for next year's iPhone: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/06/16/multi_core_arm_chips_bound_for_apples_next_gen_iphones.html On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 5:33 PM, Kevin T. Neely ktne...@astroturfgarden.com wrote: The ARM clock speed wall could very likely be surpassed by dual-coreing the processors. The Symbian Foundation is already working on a dual core version of their phone OS. K ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
Mark Haury wrote:
I'm using GPE myself, but I've spent 6 months trying to fix the botched
data import. There's just no way to reliably import data or specify
corresponding data fields.
Yes; the apps seem to have been designed by someone who has heard PIM
apps described, but has never seen any.
I have yet to get Abiword to import or export Word or OpenOffice files;
The new version I mentioned here a couple of days ago sems to open all
the ones my Windows-using colleagues send me.
... which is exactly the problem; you have to encode everything
specifically for the tablet. You can't just drag-and-drop existing files
(unless they're really low quality) onto the tablet and go.
I wouldn't expect to drop an full-rez video onto a small device and
expect it to play. The CPU just won't take that kind of strain.
Actually the calendar is the easy part; Erminig syncs GPE Calendar with
Google Calenar very reliably. That's the one sync that *does* work. My
problem is that I need to be able to print mailing labels etc. from the
contacts, which can't be done from the tablet in any way, shape or form.
Not so. You can export records from GPE Contacts to a VCard file, and
then run the file through vcf2csv and awk to create a file of LaTeX
\label{} commands which do the job just fine. Something like:
$ vcf2csv -i contacts.csv | awk -F '{print \\label{ \
gensub(,,1,$2) gensub(,,,G,$11) }}' \
labels.tex
(that's a TAB in the -F argument to awk).
There's been a lot of hype about the new crop of MID devices, which
are basically clones of the Nokia Internet Tablets, but they're being
very slow about actually coming to market. The Asus R50A is an example,
but seems to have similar problems with unfinished OS and apps. I guess
the price point keeps these companies from dedicating many resources to
sorting them out properly because of the fear they won't sell well and
make money, so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.
What puzzles me a little (and perhaps some of the developers here can
comment) is that not that many years ago, a 64Mb desktop was perfectly
capable of running a full Linux distro. Not blindingly fast, but usable.
Given a decent ARM chip, and a 16Gb SD card, I would have thought it not
impossible to run something equivalent on a pocket device, assuming the
device drivers can be written. I'm not a hardware engineer, so there may
be something missing in this, but what I am running on the N800 now is
extremely close to what I was running on my old Dell desktop. I have
heard of moves to port Ubuntu to handheld devices, I think.
Nokia had most of the right idea, but if the OS and apps are the
problem, there are people willing to make them work provided they have a
sensible and standards-obedient platform to target. Unfortunately the
manufacturers are approaching the problem from the wrong end (misled by
Marketing, as usual).
///Peter
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N810 for $180
FYI, Buy.com has the n810 for $180. Which is another way of saying, the end of the n810 series is near... It's still a great little unit, as is the n800. Wouldn't take a trip without it. Always, Fred Chittenden ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
Lake Stevens Dental wrote: FYI, Buy.com has the n810 for $180. Which is another way of saying, the end of the n810 series is near... It's still a great little unit, as is the n800. What's the replacement for the N810? My N800 is still going fine, but if I was in the market for a new equivalent, what's the model, and are there any nasty gotchas? ///Peter ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Peter Flynnpeter.fl...@mars.ucc.ie wrote: Lake Stevens Dental wrote: FYI, Buy.com has the n810 for $180. Which is another way of saying, the end of the n810 series is near... It's still a great little unit, as is the n800. What's the replacement for the N810? My N800 is still going fine, but if I was in the market for a new equivalent, what's the model, and are there any nasty gotchas? ///Peter There is none. From the details they've given thus far, the next generation of Maemo devices are going to be completely different than the current tablets, with incompatible hardware therefore software/OS. They also won't be out for probably at least another year. R.I.P. Internet Tablets... Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
On 15 Jun 2009, at 21:41, Mark wolfm...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Peter Flynnpeter.fl...@mars.ucc.ie wrote: Lake Stevens Dental wrote: FYI, Buy.com has the n810 for $180. Which is another way of saying, the end of the n810 series is near... It's still a great little unit, as is the n800. What's the replacement for the N810? My N800 is still going fine, but if I was in the market for a new equivalent, what's the model, and are there any nasty gotchas? ///Peter There is none. From the details they've given thus far, the next generation of Maemo devices are going to be completely different than the current tablets, with incompatible hardware therefore software/OS. They also won't be out for probably at least another year. Another year? What is this based on?From the information that is currently available your 'guess' seem way off to me. R.I.P. Internet Tablets... Mark Regards, Jamie. -- http://www.linuxuk.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Jamie Bennettja...@linuxuk.org wrote: On 15 Jun 2009, at 21:41, Mark wolfm...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Peter Flynnpeter.fl...@mars.ucc.ie wrote: Lake Stevens Dental wrote: FYI, Buy.com has the n810 for $180. Which is another way of saying, the end of the n810 series is near... It's still a great little unit, as is the n800. What's the replacement for the N810? My N800 is still going fine, but if I was in the market for a new equivalent, what's the model, and are there any nasty gotchas? ///Peter There is none. From the details they've given thus far, the next generation of Maemo devices are going to be completely different than the current tablets, with incompatible hardware therefore software/OS. They also won't be out for probably at least another year. Another year? What is this based on?From the information that is currently available your 'guess' seem way off to me. R.I.P. Internet Tablets... Mark Regards, Jamie. If you have something better, let's have it. Otherwise, people in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. My guess is based on posts to this list from people directly employed by Nokia. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
Am Montag, den 15.06.2009, 15:00 -0600 schrieb Mark: Another year? What is this based on?From the information that is currently available your 'guess' seem way off to me. If you have something better, let's have it. Otherwise, people in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. My guess is based on posts to this list from people directly employed by Nokia. Please provide references (URLs). The mailing list archives are public: https://lists.maemo.org/mailman//listinfo Thanks. andre -- Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster) ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
On 15 Jun 2009, at 22:00, Mark wolfm...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:55 PM, Jamie Bennettja...@linuxuk.org wrote: On 15 Jun 2009, at 21:41, Mark wolfm...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Peter Flynnpeter.fl...@mars.ucc.ie wrote: Lake Stevens Dental wrote: FYI, Buy.com has the n810 for $180. Which is another way of saying, the end of the n810 series is near... It's still a great little unit, as is the n800. What's the replacement for the N810? My N800 is still going fine, but if I was in the market for a new equivalent, what's the model, and are there any nasty gotchas? ///Peter There is none. From the details they've given thus far, the next generation of Maemo devices are going to be completely different than the current tablets, with incompatible hardware therefore software/ OS. They also won't be out for probably at least another year. Another year? What is this based on?From the information that is currently available your 'guess' seem way off to me. R.I.P. Internet Tablets... Mark Regards, Jamie. If you have something better, let's have it. Otherwise, people in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones. Not sure where both your tone and the use of that quote fits in with anything being said on this thread. My guess is based on posts to this list from people directly employed by Nokia. I must of missed where 'Nokia Employees' hinted at June next year. I base my guess on a _beta_ SDK in practical feature freeze, an October summit with high levels of device information expectations, various community projects maturing on the Fremantle SDK and the fact that Nokia employees have been working on the new device for quite some time now. Why would Nokia announce at OSiM last year a device that wouldn't be available for 20+ months later? It's not in their interests to have a device development in public that long. Also why would they effectivly freeze the new software a year before it is released? Doesn't make sense does it. Mark Regards, Jamie -- http://www.linuxuk.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 3:18 PM, Jamie Bennettja...@linuxuk.org wrote: I must of missed where 'Nokia Employees' hinted at June next year. Apparently so... I base my guess on a _beta_ SDK in practical feature freeze, an October summit with high levels of device information expectations, various community projects maturing on the Fremantle SDK and the fact that Nokia employees have been working on the new device for quite some time now. OK, so you're saying that a beta SDK means impending device release? Doesn't seem likely to me... Why would Nokia announce at OSiM last year a device that wouldn't be available for 20+ months later? For the same reason that OpenMoko announced a device to be released in 2007 that _still_ doesn't exist... It's not in their interests to have a device development in public that long. Also why would they effectivly freeze the new software a year before it is released? Doesn't make sense does it. They aren't freezing the software, they're freezing the *development environment* that is needed to create the software. What part of that do you not understand? Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 10:30 PM, Mark wolfm...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 3:18 PM, Jamie Bennettja...@linuxuk.org wrote: I must of missed where 'Nokia Employees' hinted at June next year. Apparently so... I base my guess on a _beta_ SDK in practical feature freeze, an October summit with high levels of device information expectations, various community projects maturing on the Fremantle SDK and the fact that Nokia employees have been working on the new device for quite some time now. OK, so you're saying that a beta SDK means impending device release? Doesn't seem likely to me... Why would Nokia announce at OSiM last year a device that wouldn't be available for 20+ months later? For the same reason that OpenMoko announced a device to be released in 2007 that _still_ doesn't exist... Funny, so I have a non-existent OpenMoko[1] device :) [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner Best, -- Valério Valério http://www.valeriovalerio.org It's not in their interests to have a device development in public that long. Also why would they effectivly freeze the new software a year before it is released? Doesn't make sense does it. They aren't freezing the software, they're freezing the *development environment* that is needed to create the software. What part of that do you not understand? Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
On 15 Jun 2009, at 22:30, Mark wolfm...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 3:18 PM, Jamie Bennettja...@linuxuk.org wrote: I must of missed where 'Nokia Employees' hinted at June next year. Apparently so... Care to share some links? I base my guess on a _beta_ SDK in practical feature freeze, an October summit with high levels of device information expectations, various community projects maturing on the Fremantle SDK and the fact that Nokia employees have been working on the new device for quite some time now. OK, so you're saying that a beta SDK means impending device release? Doesn't seem likely to me... Why would Nokia announce at OSiM last year a device that wouldn't be available for 20+ months later? For the same reason that OpenMoko announced a device to be released in 2007 that _still_ doesn't exist... I don't think you can compare OpenMoko to Nokia. It's not in their interests to have a device development in public that long. Also why would they effectivly freeze the new software a year before it is released? Doesn't make sense does it. They aren't freezing the software, they're freezing the *development environment* that is needed to create the software. Effectivly freezing what third-party developers, which Nokia rely heailu on for these devices, can do with the API's. What part of that do you not understand? Why such juvenile comments are on this list? Mark Regards, Jamie -- http://www.linuxuk.org ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Valerio Valeriovdv...@gmail.com wrote: Funny, so I have a non-existent OpenMoko[1] device :) [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner Best, -- Valério Valério http://www.valeriovalerio.org Yes, you do, in the sense that they still have a long way to go before the OS is even to the state of that of the N770. It's a developer's plaything, not a serious, usable device. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
Note that the Palm Pre came out before the SDK was even readily available. I'm not sure the SDK is a good metric. Also, most of Mark's arguments tend toward the Internet Tablet is not ready for end users. Taking that as a fact (for sake of argument) then the freezing of the SDK would be the best time to release a device. K On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Mark wolfm...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 3:18 PM, Jamie Bennettja...@linuxuk.org wrote: OK, so you're saying that a beta SDK means impending device release? Doesn't seem likely to me... -- In Vino Veritas http://rubbernecking.info ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Jamie Bennettja...@linuxuk.org wrote: I don't think you can compare OpenMoko to Nokia. Not until now, but they're headed that direction fast. They aren't freezing the software, they're freezing the *development environment* that is needed to create the software. Effectively freezing what third-party developers, which Nokia rely heavily on for these devices, can do with the API's. Exactly. A device, even with a complete OS, that has no usable apps is not releasable. Not even OpenMoko was that removed from reality. Their OS is still far from finished (actually never will be, as they're moving to other OSes now), but at least at this point there are some useful apps. ...And that's on a device that once they finally admitted the fact have been very strenuously and repeatedly been saying is *not* ready for anybody but developers. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Kevin T. Neelyktne...@astroturfgarden.com wrote: Note that the Palm Pre came out before the SDK was even readily available. I'm not sure the SDK is a good metric. Also, most of Mark's arguments tend toward the Internet Tablet is not ready for end users. Taking that as a fact (for sake of argument) then the freezing of the SDK would be the best time to release a device. K You're comparing apples with oranges. The Palm Pre already has a complete PIM etc. as well as a suite of other finished apps right out of the box, and is intended specifically for consumers, not developers. Therefore, it will sell and is useful right out of the box. That is in sharp contrast to a device that needs to have a stable SDK well before its release in order to generate hype with the developers who will be buying it. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 2:54 PM, Mark wolfm...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Kevin T. Neelyktne...@astroturfgarden.com wrote: Note that the Palm Pre came out before the SDK was even readily available. I'm not sure the SDK is a good metric. You're comparing apples with oranges. The Palm Pre already has a complete PIM etc. as well as a suite of other finished apps right out of the box, and is intended specifically for consumers, not developers. Therefore, it will sell and is useful right out of the box. That is in sharp contrast to a device that needs to have a stable SDK well before its release in order to generate hype with the developers who will be buying it. I'm doing nothing of the kind. I took your metric: the SDK and simply compared the two of them. Also, Mark is once again doing his famous argument which is bring up one thing and then ignore it later. He says the IT is not for the end user and only for developers, then complains that it does not have a mature and robust PIM system (something I have yet to be convinced that it needs, but that is another discussion). You can place one in the 'cons' column, but not both. No double-dipping allowed! K -- In Vino Veritas http://rubbernecking.info ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Kevin T. Neelyktne...@astroturfgarden.com wrote: I'm doing nothing of the kind. I took your metric: the SDK and simply compared the two of them. You certainly are: I'm not using the SDK as a metric, Jamie is. I was discounting that as a reliable metric. Also, Mark is once again doing his famous argument which is bring up one thing and then ignore it later. He says the IT is not for the end user and only for developers, then complains that it does not have a mature and robust PIM system (something I have yet to be convinced that it needs, but that is another discussion). Once again, you totally misunderstand and misrepresent my arguments. What I'm saying is that the ITs are marketed to anybody who will buy them, including clueless consumers. (Buy.com is a huge consumer-oriented site, not an obscure company catering to developers...) But Nokia treats them like developer's toys, and doesn't support them the way they should. Nokia is the one that is speaking with forked tongue. I bought my N800 because I took the bait and thought it was a consumer-level device because of everything I saw in the sales material. I was duped. I like my tablet, but it's turned out to be nothing but a toy. It can do lots of neat things, but in every area it falls just short of fulfilling its potential: it can display moving maps, but can't actually navigate; it can do PIM-like things (after installing third-party apps), but can't easily and reliably sync all of that data; it can do basic text files, but the shipped app uses a proprietary format and it can't open or edit any actual office documents; it can be a media player, but is limited as to the formats and especially video resolution/bitrates (it can't even do native screen resolution, only a quarter of screen resolution); the list goes on and on... Maybe *you* are never offline, but anybody who needs offline access to their complete contact database/schedule/etc. *does* need a PIM. And who wants to carry around multiple devices when one is enough? You can place one in the 'cons' column, but not both. No double-dipping allowed! K I give up. You people and your straw-man arguments will never be convinced. Mark ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
Mark wrote: What's the replacement for the N810? There is none. From the details they've given thus far, the next generation of Maemo devices are going to be completely different than the current tablets, with incompatible hardware therefore software/OS. I don't care if they are different inside and run a different OS (assuming they are still Unix-based and not Microsoft :-) What I want is a pocket computer the approximate size and weight of the N800 which does the same stuff, but a bit faster and a bit higher rez and more flexible memory/disk. Once again, you totally misunderstand and misrepresent my arguments. What I'm saying is that the ITs are marketed to anybody who will buy them, including clueless consumers. (Buy.com is a huge consumer-oriented site, not an obscure company catering to developers...) But Nokia treats them like developer's toys, and doesn't support them the way they should. Nokia is the one that is speaking with forked tongue. I think that's too harsh. I just think Nokia's management was badly misled by Marketing into believing that ITs were a viable concept. Perhaps they were for a brief time. What they missed was the vastly bigger market for pocket computers. I bought my N800 because I took the bait and thought it was a consumer-level device because of everything I saw in the sales material. I was duped. I'm sorry to hear that, but caveat emptor. I'm afraid that after 30 years in IT I never believe a word of the sales material, even if it's written by the engineers (the only people you can actually trust). I like my tablet, but it's turned out to be nothing but a toy. It can do lots of neat things, but in every area it falls just short of fulfilling its potential: I think you said you have an N810. I can't compare directly because I have an N800, and I've never even seen an N810 (and unlikely to here [Ireland] because Nokia just closed down their local store, and they had never seen an N800 until I brought mine in to show them). it can display moving maps, but can't actually navigate; I never expected mine to do that anyway. I knew it was theoretically possible, but the processor is wy too slow for mapping apps, the BT-connected satellite receivers are way too expensive, and the data quality of the free maps, even OpenStreetMap, is hopelessly inadequate. I have a perfectly-working TomTom, anyway. it can do PIM-like things (after installing third-party apps), I've already described elsewhere the errors made in selecting that particular set of built-ins. But the GPE apps are adequate, although no more than that (the authors need some more experience with usability criteria). but can't easily and reliably sync all of that data; I don't keep my PIM data anywhere else but the N800 (and backup) so that isn't an issue for me. In nearly three decades of using pocket devices I have never needed or wanted to synch the PIM data with anything else. it can do basic text files, It wouldn't be worth using if it didn't. but the shipped app uses a proprietary format and it can't open or edit any actual office documents; Same answer as for PIMs: the shipped apps were worthless. AbiWord provides all this and more. It's not the world's most wonderful interface, and it's got bits missing, but it's fine to open and save all the formats I have fed it so far. it can be a media player, but is limited as to the formats and especially video resolution/bitrates (it can't even do native screen resolution, only a quarter of screen resolution); With Andrew Flegg's tablet-encode script I have plenty of perfectly working pr0^H^H^Hmovies (enough for two transatlantic flights and two long car/train journeys and a couple of boring hotel evenings) within the limits of whatever brain-dead DRM it can work around. Plus I can do my email, news, blog, tweet, chat, manage my servers, run Emacs and Saxon and XSLT and LaTeX, wordprocess, spreadsheet, Skype, Gizmo, and that's about all I need right now. Maybe *you* are never offline, but anybody who needs offline access to their complete contact database/schedule/etc. *does* need a PIM. And who wants to carry around multiple devices when one is enough? I just carry the whole damn lot on the N800. Online or offline, I'm sorted. But I'm lucky -- I don't have to share my calendar with others (and I would refuse to do so if asked, anyway). I give up. You people and your straw-man arguments will never be convinced. The tension seems to be between developers, who want a toy they can hone their skills on, and users, who just want a computer that works. These are two separate products. So maybe I should have been more precise in my original question: Is there (or will there be soon) a pocket computer from some manufacturer (not necessarily Nokia) running a Unix-type OS of some description (not necessarily Maemo) that is broadly speaking a suitable replacement device for
Re: N810 for $180
En/na Peter Flynn ha escrit: So maybe I should have been more precise in my original question: Is there (or will there be soon) a pocket computer from some manufacturer (not necessarily Nokia) running a Unix-type OS of some description (not necessarily Maemo) that is broadly speaking a suitable replacement device for an N800/N810 user wanting an upgrade? I'm not sure it's more powerful than the n800 but it seems nice: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=27433 Bye -- Luca ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: N810 for $180
Peter Flynn wrote: Mark wrote: What's the replacement for the N810? There is none. From the details they've given thus far, the next generation of Maemo devices are going to be completely different than the current tablets, with incompatible hardware therefore software/OS. I don't care if they are different inside and run a different OS (assuming they are still Unix-based and not Microsoft :-) What I want is a pocket computer the approximate size and weight of the N800 which does the same stuff, but a bit faster and a bit higher rez and more flexible memory/disk. From what they were saying, they are not going to be *anything* like the current tablets: the form factor is going to be different, and they may even be phones. Don't hold your breath for an updated tablet. Once again, you totally misunderstand and misrepresent my arguments. What I'm saying is that the ITs are marketed to anybody who will buy them, including clueless consumers. (Buy.com is a huge consumer-oriented site, not an obscure company catering to developers...) But Nokia treats them like developer's toys, and doesn't support them the way they should. Nokia is the one that is speaking with forked tongue. I think that's too harsh. I just think Nokia's management was badly misled by Marketing into believing that ITs were a viable concept. Perhaps they were for a brief time. What they missed was the vastly bigger market for pocket computers. That's been my point all along. I bought my N800 because I took the bait and thought it was a consumer-level device because of everything I saw in the sales material. I was duped. I'm sorry to hear that, but caveat emptor. I'm afraid that after 30 years in IT I never believe a word of the sales material, even if it's written by the engineers (the only people you can actually trust). Nokia was for me a trusted name. It's a sad world when you can't trust *anybody*... :-( I like my tablet, but it's turned out to be nothing but a toy. It can do lots of neat things, but in every area it falls just short of fulfilling its potential: I think you said you have an N810. I can't compare directly because I have an N800, and I've never even seen an N810 (and unlikely to here [Ireland] because Nokia just closed down their local store, and they had never seen an N800 until I brought mine in to show them). No, I have an N800. The compromises the N810 made in order to add the keyboard are all showstoppers for me. Unfortunately, I think the upcoming devices are going to be even less what I want. it can display moving maps, but can't actually navigate; I never expected mine to do that anyway. I knew it was theoretically possible, but the processor is wy too slow for mapping apps, the BT-connected satellite receivers are way too expensive, and the data quality of the free maps, even OpenStreetMap, is hopelessly inadequate. I have a perfectly-working TomTom, anyway. Not true. Most dedicated GPSrs have much less powerful hardware than even the N770, and the mapping applications available for the tablets do just fine, they just aren't finished. it can do PIM-like things (after installing third-party apps), I've already described elsewhere the errors made in selecting that particular set of built-ins. But the GPE apps are adequate, although no more than that (the authors need some more experience with usability criteria). I'm using GPE myself, but I've spent 6 months trying to fix the botched data import. There's just no way to reliably import data or specify corresponding data fields. but can't easily and reliably sync all of that data; I don't keep my PIM data anywhere else but the N800 (and backup) so that isn't an issue for me. In nearly three decades of using pocket devices I have never needed or wanted to synch the PIM data with anything else. I have always needed to sync, import and export the PIM data for various mailing lists, etc. Keeping completely separate databases is a huge pain in the keester to manually keep everything in sync. it can do basic text files, It wouldn't be worth using if it didn't. Leafpad is a great replacement for the built-in text editor. but the shipped app uses a proprietary format and it can't open or edit any actual office documents; Same answer as for PIMs: the shipped apps were worthless. AbiWord provides all this and more. It's not the world's most wonderful interface, and it's got bits missing, but it's fine to open and save all the formats I have fed it so far. I have yet to get Abiword to import or export Word or OpenOffice files; all I get is garbage. That's true not only on the tablet but in the desktop versions. Years ago when I first tried Abiword it was much better at that than it is now. Their insistence on using their own unique file format, together
