Subject: Re: PR1.3 and Ogg-support

[Tony Green]

Erik Hovland wrote:
> I ran into the same problem. I did do the reinstall. But I had to also
> run 'tracker-processes -r' and then reboot to get my files seen. YMMV.

Curious...
While I was trying to diagnose the problem I looked at whether the
tracker was finding the files OK and on my machine at least, it was
 - they were appearing in /home/user/.cache/tracker/file-meta.db and
those already in a playlist could be played fine.
-- 
Tony Green
Ipswich, Suffolk, England
www.beermad.org.uk/
www.suffolkcamra.co.uk/pubs/

* No Micro$oft products were used in the generation of this communication
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: PR1.3 and Ogg-support

[Erik Hovland]

On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 4:02 AM, Tony Green  wrote:
> Anybody who has Ogg-support may have noticed that their Ogg-Vorbis files
> no longer appear in the media player (though it can still play them if
> they're in a playlist).
>
> Bug 11511 (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11511) refers to this.
> The answer is to unistall and reinstall Ogg-support, though annoyingly
> both Mappero and Extra decoders support are dependent on Ogg-support, so
> they also need to be taken off and reinstalled.

I ran into the same problem. I did do the reinstall. But I had to also
run 'tracker-processes -r' and then reboot to get my files seen. YMMV.

E

-- 
Erik Hovland
e...@hovland.org
http://hovland.org/
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: PR1.3 and Ogg-support

[Petteri]

Tony Green kirjoitti ke  3. marraskuuta 2010 11:02:04:
> Anybody who has Ogg-support may have noticed that their Ogg-Vorbis files
> no longer appear in the media player (though it can still play them if
> they're in a playlist).
> 
> Bug 11511 (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11511) refers to this.
> The answer is to unistall and reinstall Ogg-support, though annoyingly
> both Mappero and Extra decoders support are dependent on Ogg-support, so
> they also need to be taken off and reinstalled.

I had this problem long before PR1.3. Could not find any fix, so I just
left the problem be, but now tested to reinstall ogg-support (apt-get
--purge remove ogg-support && apt-get install ogg-support) and I see the
ogg files again in the mediaplayer. Thanks!

- Petteri

-- 
 ___.  / \  .___
 "Y/|\ | 0 o / /|\Y"
   '^^V  /|\ 'v'^^'

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

PR1.3 and Ogg-support

[Tony Green]

Anybody who has Ogg-support may have noticed that their Ogg-Vorbis files
no longer appear in the media player (though it can still play them if
they're in a playlist).

Bug 11511 (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11511) refers to this.
The answer is to unistall and reinstall Ogg-support, though annoyingly
both Mappero and Extra decoders support are dependent on Ogg-support, so
they also need to be taken off and reinstalled.
-- 
Tony Green
Ipswich, Suffolk, England
www.beermad.org.uk/
www.suffolkcamra.co.uk/pubs/

* No Micro$oft products were used in the generation of this communication
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: [Fwd: Error in email to twine.com (was Re: Re: Ogg support)]

[Henrik Frisk]

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 2:51 PM, Marius Gedminas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 07:35:42AM -0400, James Knott wrote:
>  > Matt Emson wrote:
>  > > Anyone got an idea what on earth this is on about? Has somebody
>  > > subscribed with an email address that would generate this kind of junk?
>  > >
>  > I've also been getting them.  Perhaps whoever maintains the mail list
>  > can remove whatever user in on twine.com
>
>  Yes, please.  It's obnoxious to subscribe to a public list with an email
>  from a provider that requires each sender to jump through silly hoops to
>  get those emails delivered.
>
>  Marius Gedminas
>  --
>  You can't spell evil without vi.
>
I haven't been able to post new messages to this list for a week
because of Twine. I refuse to register with another service like that.

/Henrik
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: [Fwd: Error in email to twine.com (was Re: Re: Ogg support)]

[Marius Gedminas]

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 07:35:42AM -0400, James Knott wrote:
> Matt Emson wrote:
> > Anyone got an idea what on earth this is on about? Has somebody 
> > subscribed with an email address that would generate this kind of junk?
> >
> I've also been getting them.  Perhaps whoever maintains the mail list 
> can remove whatever user in on twine.com

Yes, please.  It's obnoxious to subscribe to a public list with an email
from a provider that requires each sender to jump through silly hoops to
get those emails delivered.

Marius Gedminas
-- 
You can't spell evil without vi.


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: [Fwd: Error in email to twine.com (was Re: Re: Ogg support)]

[James Knott]

Matt Emson wrote:
> Anyone got an idea what on earth this is on about? Has somebody 
> subscribed with an email address that would generate this kind of junk?
>
I've also been getting them.  Perhaps whoever maintains the mail list 
can remove whatever user in on twine.com

-- 
Use OpenOffice.org 
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

[Fwd: Error in email to twine.com (was Re: Re: Ogg support)]

[Matt Emson]

Anyone got an idea what on earth this is on about? Has somebody 
subscribed with an email address that would generate this kind of junk?


M

 Original Message 
Subject:Error in email to twine.com (was Re: Re: Ogg support)
Date:   Mon, 31 Mar 2008 04:22:18 -0500 (CDT)
From:   Twine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Matt Emson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>




Twine Tie it all Together <http://www.twine.com:4242/>

Dear Twine user,

There was a problem sending your email: The message was not from an 
email address of a Twine user. Click here 
<http://www.twine.com:4242/account/changeContactInformation> to add the 
address [EMAIL PROTECTED] to your Twine account, or use an email 
address which you've already registered with Twine to post by mail to a 
twine.


Sorry for any inconvenience caused.

Cheers, the Twine team.

Copyright © Radar Networks Inc.410 Townsend Street Suite 150 | San 
Francisco, California 94107


Terms of Use <http://www.twine.com:4242/legal> | Privacy 
<http://www.twine.com:4242/privacy> | Contact Support 
<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>




___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Ogg support

[Matt Emson]

Tuomas Kulve wrote:
> Media Player doesn't allow you to open ogg files directly but when the
> Metalayer Crawler adds your oggs to the Library then you can play the
> oggs from there with the Media Player.

Metalayer-crawler is the first thing I disable and remove after 
reflashing my N800. It is evil and literally kills battery life and the 
life of flash devices. You should not have to rely on the 
Metalayer-crawler to play ogg, because until Nokia/Maemo fix the 
memory/processor usage issues with the crawler, people like me are going 
to gain root access and remove it.

M
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Ogg support

[James Knott]

Tuomas Kulve wrote:
> James Knott wrote:
>   
>> I've just installed ogg support on my N800, running OS2008.  When I try 
>> to play an ogg file, I get asked what application to use.  I select 
>> Media Player (ogg) and the file plays.  I can also open mp3 files with 
>> the same player.  However, whne in the regular player, I cannot play 
>> ogg.  Is there any way to associate ogg files with the media player, so 
>> that they play like an mp3 would?
>> 
>
> "Media Player (ogg)" is the same executable as "Media Player", just a
> separate desktop file because of the mime types.
>
> Media Player doesn't allow you to open ogg files directly but when the
> Metalayer Crawler adds your oggs to the Library then you can play the
> oggs from there with the Media Player.
>
>   
It's found the files, but I noticed the player now displays the file 
extenstion for .ogg files, but not .mp3.  Why the difference?  Any way 
to turn it off for .ogg too?

tnx jk


-- 
Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org>
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Ogg support

[Tuomas Kulve]

James Knott wrote:
> I've just installed ogg support on my N800, running OS2008.  When I try 
> to play an ogg file, I get asked what application to use.  I select 
> Media Player (ogg) and the file plays.  I can also open mp3 files with 
> the same player.  However, whne in the regular player, I cannot play 
> ogg.  Is there any way to associate ogg files with the media player, so 
> that they play like an mp3 would?

"Media Player (ogg)" is the same executable as "Media Player", just a
separate desktop file because of the mime types.

Media Player doesn't allow you to open ogg files directly but when the
Metalayer Crawler adds your oggs to the Library then you can play the
oggs from there with the Media Player.

-- 
Tuomas



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Ogg support

[James Knott]

I've just installed ogg support on my N800, running OS2008.  When I try 
to play an ogg file, I get asked what application to use.  I select 
Media Player (ogg) and the file plays.  I can also open mp3 files with 
the same player.  However, whne in the regular player, I cannot play 
ogg.  Is there any way to associate ogg files with the media player, so 
that they play like an mp3 would?

tnx jk

-- 
Use OpenOffice.org <http://www.openoffice.org>
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

This may account for lack of ogg support by Nokia

[james]

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20071210-nokia-wants-w3c-to-remove-out-ogg-from-upcoming-html5-standard.html

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Aw: Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Frédéric Crozat]

Le lundi 05 novembre 2007 à 08:55 +0200, Kalle Valo a écrit :
> "ext Frederic Crozat" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Le mardi 30 octobre 2007 à 10:58 +0100, Tu-zrz a écrit :
> >> 
> >> Would it make sense to add a table with different AP to document which
> >> AP works with setting xyz unter itos 200x and which will not?
> >
> > I don't have any objection :)
> 
> I started to combine a list of problematic APs some time ago, but gave
> up because it was just too much work for one person. The bugs depend
> on model, software version, hardware version and what not so the list
> is going to be huge.

Feel free to either dump it unformatted on wiki or send it to me by
emails and I'll format it for wiki.

> But I think that a community effort might work, because everyone can
> contribute and it's not burden of one individual.

Exactly :)

-- 
Frédéric Crozat 
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Aw: Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Kalle Valo]

"ext Frederic Crozat" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Le mardi 30 octobre 2007 à 10:58 +0100, Tu-zrz a écrit :
>> 
>> Would it make sense to add a table with different AP to document which
>> AP works with setting xyz unter itos 200x and which will not?
>
> I don't have any objection :)

I started to combine a list of problematic APs some time ago, but gave
up because it was just too much work for one person. The bugs depend
on model, software version, hardware version and what not so the list
is going to be huge.

But I think that a community effort might work, because everyone can
contribute and it's not burden of one individual.

-- 
Kalle Valo
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Frederic Crozat]

Le mardi 30 octobre 2007 à 09:02 +0100, Frederic Crozat a écrit :
> Le mardi 30 octobre 2007 à 09:36 +0200, Kalle Valo a écrit :
> > ext Frédéric Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> > > I tried disabling Wii and it didn't bring any improvement, since PSM is
> > > really a problem for both my AP. I'll contact my ISP for the AP inside
> > > Freebox, maybe they can do something about it (it is using Ralink 2661
> > > chipset).
> > 
> > Feel free to add me as a technical contact. I don't know what is the
> > exact problem with your AP, but at least I can explain to the
> > manufacturer what they should support.
> 
> Thanks, I'll add your email in the bug report (sorry, it is in french
> but it might interest other people on this mailing list) :
> http://bugs.freeplayer.org/task/2538

I just got a reply from them : they say they debugged PSM intensively
when they started proposing SIP mobile phones, so it should be working.
And of course, they are asking if they can get a n800 to debug :)
(they are geeks, like all of us :p )

I'll see if I can try to work as the test guy between you and them ;)

-- 
Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Aw: Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Frederic Crozat]

Le mardi 30 octobre 2007 à 10:58 +0100, Tu-zrz a écrit :
> 
> Would it make sense to add a table with different AP to document which
> AP works with setting xyz unter itos 200x and which will not?

I don't have any objection :)

Maybe creating a separate package with a nice table would make sense,
and link it from the "main" PSM page.

-- 
Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Aw: Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Tu-zrz]

- Ursprüngliche Mitteilung -
Von: Kalle Valo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
An: ext Frédéric Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: maemo-users 
Gesendet: Di., 30. Okt. 2007 08:36:01 CET
Betreff: Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support
ext Frédéric Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> > My AP (Freebox, an ISP set-top-box) seems to support WLAN PSM
>> > properly.
>> 
>> If you have problems WLAN standby times I'm not yet convinced that
>> your AP work correctly.
>
> After more tests, it appears both my AP don't support full PSM :(

I'm curious, what tests failed?

> Anyway, I've used your tests with full PSM and it appears both Freebox
> and Fonera (as noticed by Riku in another reply) have problems with
> it :(

Too bad :(

> I've taken the liberty to write a summary of the various informations
> you gave here about PSM and how to change it on Maemo wiki. Feel free to
> fix errors I might have introduced :
>  https://maemo.org/community/wiki/wifipsm/

Excellent, thank you! I have been planning to do that, but never
managed to find time for that. I will try to add more information to
the page at some stage.

> I tried disabling Wii and it didn't bring any improvement, since PSM is
> really a problem for both my AP. I'll contact my ISP for the AP inside
> Freebox, maybe they can do something about it (it is using Ralink 2661
> chipset).

Feel free to add me as a technical contact. I don't know what is the
exact problem with your AP, but at least I can explain to the
manufacturer what they should support.

-- 
Kalle Valo
___

Would it make sense to add a table with different AP to document which AP works 
with setting xyz unter itos 200x and which will not?

I could add information about optimized psm settings for Siemens sx-541 AP for 
n800 and 770 HE. That would give us an overview. What do you think?

Regards Krischan 
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Frederic Crozat]

Le mardi 30 octobre 2007 à 09:36 +0200, Kalle Valo a écrit :
> ext Frédéric Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> >> > My AP (Freebox, an ISP set-top-box) seems to support WLAN PSM
> >> > properly.
> >> 
> >> If you have problems WLAN standby times I'm not yet convinced that
> >> your AP work correctly.
> >
> > After more tests, it appears both my AP don't support full PSM :(
> 
> I'm curious, what tests failed?

For Freebox, both tests, but ping one was really visible. And I noticed
I got much better network response for browsing and so on since I set
n800 back to default PSM timeout. I'll try to lower default value
progressively to see if I can increase power saving while keeping
network working.

I couldn't extensively test arping on Fonera because it is using its own
subnet (and I only have one Wifi element at home). And I need to
reconfigure some routing to get ping working as expected. I'll report
later about my progress.

> > I've taken the liberty to write a summary of the various informations
> > you gave here about PSM and how to change it on Maemo wiki. Feel free to
> > fix errors I might have introduced :
> >  https://maemo.org/community/wiki/wifipsm/
> 
> Excellent, thank you! I have been planning to do that, but never
> managed to find time for that. I will try to add more information to
> the page at some stage.

Great.

> > I tried disabling Wii and it didn't bring any improvement, since PSM is
> > really a problem for both my AP. I'll contact my ISP for the AP inside
> > Freebox, maybe they can do something about it (it is using Ralink 2661
> > chipset).
> 
> Feel free to add me as a technical contact. I don't know what is the
> exact problem with your AP, but at least I can explain to the
> manufacturer what they should support.

Thanks, I'll add your email in the bug report (sorry, it is in french
but it might interest other people on this mailing list) :
http://bugs.freeplayer.org/task/2538

-- 
Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Kalle Valo]

ext Frédéric Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> > My AP (Freebox, an ISP set-top-box) seems to support WLAN PSM
>> > properly.
>> 
>> If you have problems WLAN standby times I'm not yet convinced that
>> your AP work correctly.
>
> After more tests, it appears both my AP don't support full PSM :(

I'm curious, what tests failed?

> Anyway, I've used your tests with full PSM and it appears both Freebox
> and Fonera (as noticed by Riku in another reply) have problems with
> it :(

Too bad :(

> I've taken the liberty to write a summary of the various informations
> you gave here about PSM and how to change it on Maemo wiki. Feel free to
> fix errors I might have introduced :
>  https://maemo.org/community/wiki/wifipsm/

Excellent, thank you! I have been planning to do that, but never
managed to find time for that. I will try to add more information to
the page at some stage.

> I tried disabling Wii and it didn't bring any improvement, since PSM is
> really a problem for both my AP. I'll contact my ISP for the AP inside
> Freebox, maybe they can do something about it (it is using Ralink 2661
> chipset).

Feel free to add me as a technical contact. I don't know what is the
exact problem with your AP, but at least I can explain to the
manufacturer what they should support.

-- 
Kalle Valo
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Frédéric Crozat]

Le jeudi 25 octobre 2007 à 08:05 +0300, Kalle Valo a écrit :
> ext Frédéric Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> >> o Buggy AP which does not support WLAN PSM properly.
> >
> > My AP (Freebox, an ISP set-top-box) seems to support WLAN PSM
> > properly.
> 
> If you have problems WLAN standby times I'm not yet convinced that
> your AP work correctly.

After more tests, it appears both my AP don't support full PSM :(
> 
> > I also have a Fonera. Is there any way to check, from n800 side, if WLAN
> > PSM isn't working properly ? (I've enabled full PSM and pings are still
> > working)
> 
> Usually I first try that unicast is working correctly with ping from
> network (execute this from a PC connected to the AP, either with
> Ethernet or WLAN):
> 
> ping -i 2 192.168.1.123
> 
> Next I will check broadcast with arping (also from a PC, need to be in
> same in subnet):
> 
> arping -I eth0 -b 192.168.1.123
> 
> Packet loss should be zero percent in both cases. 
> 
> Next I measure the power consumption, but one needs special hardware
> for that. Unfortunately I don't have any ideas how you could do that.

Maybe in future kernel some info in sysfs ? :)

> If I spot any problems with these tests, I use a wireless sniffer for
> analysis. I have found that madwifi driver and Wireshark are the most
> suitable for me.

Unfortunately, I don't have PC with wifi at home.

Anyway, I've used your tests with full PSM and it appears both Freebox
and Fonera (as noticed by Riku in another reply) have problems with
it :(

I've taken the liberty to write a summary of the various informations
you gave here about PSM and how to change it on Maemo wiki. Feel free to
fix errors I might have introduced :
 https://maemo.org/community/wiki/wifipsm/


> >> o Lots of broadcast and multicast packets on the network (like
> >>   Windows samba broadcasts).
> >
> > No Windows (nor Samba) on the network.
> >
> > However, I tried to run tcpdump on n800 to see what is going on.
> >
> > It seems Nintendo Wii "standby mode" is causing arp and DNS query, seen
> > on n800, every 10 minutes.
> 
> If it's only one ARP and DNS query, every 10 minutes is not that bad.
> 
> Just of curiosity, who is issuing the DNS query? The Nintendo Wii
> device? N800 shouldn't see DNS requests made by other devices. DNS is
> unicast and N800 shouldn't see unicast packets between AP and other
> WLAN clients.

I'll check again.

> > Since I have two AP available, I'll try to configure both n800 and Wii
> > to use separate networks, to check if it improves situation.
> 
> Good idea.

I tried disabling Wii and it didn't bring any improvement, since PSM is
really a problem for both my AP. I'll contact my ISP for the AP inside
Freebox, maybe they can do something about it (it is using Ralink 2661
chipset).

> > Can we expect any improvement when changing WLAN power from 100mA to
> > 10mA ? 
> 
> I have been told that it doesn't affect much (if at all). I recommend
> not to try that, it's not worth it. We have implemented it for
> regulatory purposes.

Good to know.
> 
-- 
Frédéric Crozat 
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Quim Gil]

Hi, mixing quotes (sorry).

Yesterday I moved this debate to maemo-developers since the current
topic about repositores and policies affects developers only. See

Bugs at maemo for extras apps (was Re: Steve's Ranty Review...)
http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-developers/2007-October/012239.html 

It's difficult to follow efficiently both lists looking for topics
relating to developers (specially if the threads in maemo-users end up
discussing topics different than the subject). 


> Then these issues need to be fixed. Failing to centralise the  
> available packages negates a potential massive advantage (for users, 

Repositories mess: conclusions and actions
http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail//maemo-developers/2007-October/012192.html



> Personally, I'd urge Nokia to find someone (who understands the  
> issues of e.g. library packaging) to have a thorough read of Debian  
> policy and come up with a maemo policy at least partly based on it -  
> this will be necessary to ensure that everything in the repository or  
> repositories will "play friendly" and DTRT.

Do you know we have Debian maintainers (and I would say experts) in our
team. btw a maemo packaging policy is underways, we are still polishing
details before share it for community review.

-- 
Quim Gil - http://maemo.org

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Kalle Valo]

"ext Marius Gedminas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> Just of curiosity, who is issuing the DNS query? The Nintendo Wii
>> device? N800 shouldn't see DNS requests made by other devices. DNS is
>> unicast and N800 shouldn't see unicast packets between AP and other
>> WLAN clients.
>
> Doesn't multicast DNS use the same port and protocol as regular DNS?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeroconf#Apple.27s_protocol:_Multicast_DNS.2FDNS-SD

Good point. If it's MDNS then it's normal. But if it's normal unicast
DNS requests origination from some other device, something is broken.

-- 
Kalle Valo
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Nick Phillips]

On 26/10/2007, at 10:57 AM, Steve Greenland wrote:

> According to Kemal Hadimli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> Some of the developers won't use the repositories no matter what you
>> do, and as far as I can tell/analyze, the reasons are:
>>
>> - It's hard (well, not well-documented) to get access to, and to set
>> up keys etc.
>> - Distributing files from garage downloads are much easier (and can
>> track download counts)

Then these issues need to be fixed. Failing to centralise the  
available packages negates a potential massive advantage (for users,  
for developers, and for Nokia) of using Debian-style packages in the  
first place. It's been something that has bugged me massively since I  
first got my 770. Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of  
victory...


>>
>> They don't care about the advantages (easy rolling of releases and
>> auto-installation of dependencies) because there are ways to get
>> around them.
>
> Then they don't care about their users. End of story.
>
> The way to solve this is to make the repo more attractive. Make
> "download counts" available[1]. Make it easy to know *what* repo you
> should put your packages in. Make it clear that not using the repo is
> not socially acceptable. Make it clear what the requirements are to  
> get
> into the repo. Make it easy.
>
> Now, I don't think there will ever be a time when everything
> (non-official Nokia) is in one repo. Even Debian has it's special
> purpose repos, such as backports.org. But for the most part, if your
> package isn't in the central Debian repo, it doesn't exist.


Steve is absolutely spot-on here, from start to finish.

Personally, I'd urge Nokia to find someone (who understands the  
issues of e.g. library packaging) to have a thorough read of Debian  
policy and come up with a maemo policy at least partly based on it -  
this will be necessary to ensure that everything in the repository or  
repositories will "play friendly" and DTRT.

There may at first appear to be weirdnesses in the way Debian does  
things, but in general it's all there for a reason and has been  
carefully (and often painfully) considered, and found to work. There  
will be good reasons for doing things differently in some areas and  
perhaps for pitching it at a slightly different level, but be careful  
that these reasons are stated and understood internally at least.


Cheers,


Nick


___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Steve Greenland]

According to Kemal Hadimli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Some of the developers won't use the repositories no matter what you
> do, and as far as I can tell/analyze, the reasons are:
> 
> - It's hard (well, not well-documented) to get access to, and to set
> up keys etc.
> - Distributing files from garage downloads are much easier (and can
> track download counts)
> 
> They don't care about the advantages (easy rolling of releases and
> auto-installation of dependencies) because there are ways to get
> around them.

Then they don't care about their users. End of story.

The way to solve this is to make the repo more attractive. Make
"download counts" available[1]. Make it easy to know *what* repo you
should put your packages in. Make it clear that not using the repo is
not socially acceptable. Make it clear what the requirements are to get
into the repo. Make it easy.

Now, I don't think there will ever be a time when everything
(non-official Nokia) is in one repo. Even Debian has it's special
purpose repos, such as backports.org. But for the most part, if your
package isn't in the central Debian repo, it doesn't exist.


Regards,
Steve
-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Marius Gedminas]

On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 08:05:22AM +0300, Kalle Valo wrote:
> > It seems Nintendo Wii "standby mode" is causing arp and DNS query, seen
> > on n800, every 10 minutes.
> 
> If it's only one ARP and DNS query, every 10 minutes is not that bad.
> 
> Just of curiosity, who is issuing the DNS query? The Nintendo Wii
> device? N800 shouldn't see DNS requests made by other devices. DNS is
> unicast and N800 shouldn't see unicast packets between AP and other
> WLAN clients.

Doesn't multicast DNS use the same port and protocol as regular DNS?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeroconf#Apple.27s_protocol:_Multicast_DNS.2FDNS-SD

Marius Gedminas
-- 
I am right now in the process of reading the Xft source code (the suspense near
the end of Chapter 7 is unbearable) [...]
-- Juliusz Chroboczek


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Riku Voipio]

Kalle Valo wrote:
> ext Frédéric Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>   
>> I also have a Fonera. Is there any way to check, from n800 side, if WLAN
>> PSM isn't working properly ? (I've enabled full PSM and pings are still
>> working)
>> 
La fonera is known not to work properly with PSM, it's mentioned in:

https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1636
http://boards.fon.com/viewtopic.php?t=3451&highlight=n800

I'm fairly certain that the bug is in fonera side, but fonera probably
is as certain that it is on n800 side (and/or that n800 is marginal
enough not to care about it). Thus fixing it falls in the responsibility
of the famous "someone else" guy...
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Kalle Valo]

ext Frédéric Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> o Buggy AP which does not support WLAN PSM properly.
>
> My AP (Freebox, an ISP set-top-box) seems to support WLAN PSM
> properly.

If you have problems WLAN standby times I'm not yet convinced that
your AP work correctly.

> I also have a Fonera. Is there any way to check, from n800 side, if WLAN
> PSM isn't working properly ? (I've enabled full PSM and pings are still
> working)

Usually I first try that unicast is working correctly with ping from
network (execute this from a PC connected to the AP, either with
Ethernet or WLAN):

ping -i 2 192.168.1.123

Next I will check broadcast with arping (also from a PC, need to be in
same in subnet):

arping -I eth0 -b 192.168.1.123

Packet loss should be zero percent in both cases. 

Next I measure the power consumption, but one needs special hardware
for that. Unfortunately I don't have any ideas how you could do that.

If I spot any problems with these tests, I use a wireless sniffer for
analysis. I have found that madwifi driver and Wireshark are the most
suitable for me.

>> o distance to AP (WLAN background scan will kick in if the signal level is
>>   -75 dBm or less)
>
> Not a problem here, I'm in about 2 to 5 meters of AP.

Ok, background can be ruled out.

>> o Lots of broadcast and multicast packets on the network (like
>>   Windows samba broadcasts).
>
> No Windows (nor Samba) on the network.
>
> However, I tried to run tcpdump on n800 to see what is going on.
>
> It seems Nintendo Wii "standby mode" is causing arp and DNS query, seen
> on n800, every 10 minutes.

If it's only one ARP and DNS query, every 10 minutes is not that bad.

Just of curiosity, who is issuing the DNS query? The Nintendo Wii
device? N800 shouldn't see DNS requests made by other devices. DNS is
unicast and N800 shouldn't see unicast packets between AP and other
WLAN clients.

> Since I have two AP available, I'll try to configure both n800 and Wii
> to use separate networks, to check if it improves situation.

Good idea.

> Can we expect any improvement when changing WLAN power from 100mA to
> 10mA ? 

I have been told that it doesn't affect much (if at all). I recommend
not to try that, it's not worth it. We have implemented it for
regulatory purposes.

-- 
Kalle Valo
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support and the repository question

[Steve Greenland]

According to Mikhail Sobolev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 04:30:50PM +, Steve Greenland wrote:
> > Probably the easiest workable solution is something like the Debian
> > unstable/testing process, whereby packages are uploaded to unstable, and
> > migrate to testing after meeting certain criteria (no new serious bugs,
> > installs with only other testing packages, etc.)
> I'd like to point one [obvious] thing: Debian uses single bug tracking
> system for all its packages, hence checking whether a package is having
> serious problems is very easy.  For packages in extras{,-testing}
> repository this might not be the case.

Well, that just means that there would need to be a single BTS for the
extra repository, which would be a good thing. Expecting users to track
down package specific bug trackers is absurd.

I understand Nokia need to keep a separate repo and BTS for official,
corporately supported, anything-else-will-make-your-tablet-explode
packages. So the community needs a seperate repo and BTS. But there
needs to be only one of these.

By "only one", I don't mean to limit categorization such as bora vs.
mistral or (possibly) tested vs. unstable. But we don't need a doesn't
different websites with a dozen different BTS and three dozen different
variants of libgtk.

Of course, nobody is forced to use this hypothetical central repo. But
the current situation is not what I'd call user friendly.

Steve



-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support and the repository question

[Mikhail Sobolev]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 04:30:50PM +, Steve Greenland wrote:
> Probably the easiest workable solution is something like the Debian
> unstable/testing process, whereby packages are uploaded to unstable, and
> migrate to testing after meeting certain criteria (no new serious bugs,
> installs with only other testing packages, etc.)
I'd like to point one [obvious] thing: Debian uses single bug tracking
system for all its packages, hence checking whether a package is having
serious problems is very easy.  For packages in extras{,-testing}
repository this might not be the case.

Cheers

--
Misha


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Kemal Hadimli]

On 10/22/07, Steve Greenland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> much faster. But I'm a little baffled -- it still shows (some) lib*
> packages, which I would consider the first thing to filter out, since
> they'll be installed by dependencies, and there is little reason (for a
> non-developer, at least) to installa particular library.

Speaking of libs, why is the "incompatible package" error still there?
IMO the app manager should just allow the installation of any
category, not just user/*. This is a problem because some applications
don't use the repository method, and installing the dependencies from
the maemo garage is a problem. Then, users are instructed to switch to
red pill mode by the application developers, or sometimes the app
developers just repackage the libraries in the category "user/libs" so
that the packages can be installed from the garage. Both should not
happen, and the way to prevent it is to allow any category (or maybe
just "libs") to be installed manually from the app manager.

Some of the developers won't use the repositories no matter what you
do, and as far as I can tell/analyze, the reasons are:

- It's hard (well, not well-documented) to get access to, and to set
up keys etc.
- Distributing files from garage downloads are much easier (and can
track download counts)

They don't care about the advantages (easy rolling of releases and
auto-installation of dependencies) because there are ways to get
around them. They can just open a thread in ITT and announce, and
instruct people about the red pill mode if needed.

And yeah, this bothers me. Red pill mode shouldn't be used by
non-developers (or even non system developers) and there should be
ways to install bare "libs". You could keep a track of
manually-(user-)installed libs and show them in the package list, and
still hide the other (system) library packages. Of course a better way
could be not to hide any packages, but introduce better
organization/categorization in the app manager so nobody has to use
the "All" option (and move it to the bottom too) yet still nobody sees
system packages in the list, without ticking a checkbox in preferences
or without going into the system packages category.

Cheers
-- 
Kemal
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Steve Greenland]

According to Marius Vollmer  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> "ext Steve Greenland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > According to Marius Vollmer  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >> How important is it to fix this?  I'm working on the assumption that
> >> you would only activate "Show all packages" in an emergency, but would
> >> usually leave it off (precisely because it decreases the useability so
> >> much).
> >
> > The problem is that while in theory, I could just display all the
> > packages in a particular cagetory, or even only the "users/*"
> > categories, in practice the category stuff is so screwed up that the
> > only way to find anything is browsing the "all" lists.
> 
> Browsing the "All" category and the "Show all packages" settings are
> two different things.  (I am not sure whether you are aware of that.)

I was, but I set "Show all packages" a while ago, and had forgotten the
distinction.

I just disabled "show all packages", and browsed "all", and yes, it's
much faster. But I'm a little baffled -- it still shows (some) lib*
packages, which I would consider the first thing to filter out, since
they'll be installed by dependencies, and there is little reason (for a
non-developer, at least) to installa particular library.

> > Then it shows examples like:
> >
> > # user/accessories Accessories
> > # user/communication Communication
> >
> > So, what goes in the control file? "user/accessories" or
> > "user/Accessories" or "user/accessories Accessories"? Two of the three
> > violate the previous definition, and the examples don't even follow the
> > form.
> 
> You misunderstood.  The list is not a list of examples, it is a list
> of predefined categories that you should use whenever possible.  The
> predefined categories are also localized.

Ah, I see your point. But the the predefined categories are still in
conflict with the instructions, which say the sub-category should be
capitalized. Thus, "user/Accessories", not "user/accessories".

I understand that this may be an implicit exception for the pre-defined
categories that are localized. But it is obviously confusing for the new
reader; here are (some of) the categories currently listed on my N800
(this is with "Show all packages" re-enabled, but even with it disabled,
I get all of these without the "maemo" or "user" prefix, and many more):

maemo/Applications
maemo/libs
maemo/Utilities
user/accessories
user/Applications
user/cli
user/Commandline
user/communications
user/connectivity
user/Daemon
user/Daemons
user/devel
user/extras
user/games
user/graphics
user/instantmessaging
user/library
user/libs
user/Locales
user/mics
user/multimedia
user/office
user/other
user/programming
user/Protocols
user/religion
user/sound
user/themes
user/tools
user/utils
user/Web
user/web

Many (most?) of these are also duplicated without the "user" prefix;
quite a few obviously come from the straight port of Debian package
categories.


> Yes, but the Application Manager is not the one enforcing policy.  If
> it encounters a non-policy-conforming package, it will still show and
> install it if possible.

Oh, absolutely, and that's why I earlier wrote about it not being your
fault.

But part of the problem is the lack of the *limited* list of sections.
You could do worse than to document the complete list of Debian
sections, and say "pick one of these, don't make up new ones". (I don't
mean "you" in particular, Marius, but whatever group is writing these
docs, and enforced (encouraged?) by whoever is maintaining the extras
repo.

Regards,
Steve
-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Marius Vollmer]

"ext Marius Vollmer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I hope the document that you refer to is not screwed up.  I will check
> myself.

Nope, it's fine.  Please read it again. :)
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Marius Vollmer]

"ext Steve Greenland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> According to Marius Vollmer  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> How important is it to fix this?  I'm working on the assumption that
>> you would only activate "Show all packages" in an emergency, but would
>> usually leave it off (precisely because it decreases the useability so
>> much).
>
> The problem is that while in theory, I could just display all the
> packages in a particular cagetory, or even only the "users/*"
> categories, in practice the category stuff is so screwed up that the
> only way to find anything is browsing the "all" lists.

Browsing the "All" category and the "Show all packages" settings are
two different things.  (I am not sure whether you are aware of that.)

Activating the "Show all packages" setting will list all packages in
the package database, between 1000 and 2000 or so.  This is what is
unacceptably slow.  Deactivating "Show all packages" and browsing the
"All" category should give packages in the small hundreds or so, and
that should be OKish performace wise.  No?

> This screwup isn't your fault, of course; it's the lack of having a
> standard policy document to guide developers. Even what there is isn't
> consistent. Consider the 3-.x "Making a package for the Application
> Manager in maemo 3.x" document. It says:
>
> The AI only shows packages in the "user" section. Thus, your
> "Section:" field in the control file should be of the form
> "user/", where SUBSECTION is arbitrary. SUBSECTION
> should be a nice capitalised, English word like "Ringtones"
>
> Then it shows examples like:
>
>   # user/accessories Accessories
> # user/communication Communication
>
> So, what goes in the control file? "user/accessories" or
> "user/Accessories" or "user/accessories Accessories"? Two of the three
> violate the previous definition, and the examples don't even follow the
> form.

You misunderstood.  The list is not a list of examples, it is a list
of predefined categories that you should use whenever possible.  The
predefined categories are also localized.

I hope the document that you refer to is not screwed up.  I will check
myself.

> Writing policy (standards, basically) is hard, of course. (I was
> involved in a lot of the early Debian policy documentation.) But to
> have a working thirdparty developer community, it's necessary. A
> complete anarchy does not lead to good results.

Yes, but the Application Manager is not the one enforcing policy.  If
it encounters a non-policy-conforming package, it will still show and
install it if possible.

(And no, not-installing packages that don't have the "user/foo"
section marker is not about enforcing policy, it is about "enabling a
nice and non-confusing UI experience". :)

> At lot people miss the fact that the reason Debian packages have such
> a good reputation (compared to RPMs, particulary RPMs from the Redhat
> 5-8 era), has very little to do with the technology of .deb and a huge
> amount to do with the Debian policy effort.

Yes, this point merits repeating.
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Marius Vollmer]

"ext Steve Greenland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> According to Marius Vollmer  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> "ext Marius Gedminas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> 
>> > My personal pet peeve with the app manager is all those confirmation
>> > dialogs.
>> 
>> Yeah, and there will be more in the future...  There should be at
>> least one before starting the operation,
>
> Please Ghod no. 
>
> I confirmed the operation when I selected "install" or "remove".

We could maybe get rid of this confirmation dialog for operations that
are activated from the toolbar button and the menu, but not when they
are activated from the list view... hmm.  I put that on my list.

> The obvious exception, of course, is attempting to remove some required
> package, or removing something that's going to break dependencies.

The AM wont let you do that, not even in red-pill mode.

>> and we can't get rid of the legal "Notice" dialog for non-certified
>> software.
>
> How about letting me mark repos as "okay by me"...

You can hack the configuration of the AM that tells it which
catalogues are considered 'certified'.  There is no UI for this,
obviously, but look around in /etc/osso-application-manager.  This
only works for signed repositories, tho.

>> When using the AM to install system software updates, there will be
>> lots more: "please take a backup", "all applications will be
>> closed, continue?", "device will reboot, continue?", "don't touch
>> me while I do scary things to the kernel", maybe even more. We
>> should try to combine these messages.
>
> This needs some thought -- in particular, what defines a "system
> software update"?

A package with "Maemo-Flags: system-update" counts as a system update.
System updates right now are based on meta-packages.

There are more flags: "reboot" if you want a reboot after installing
your package, "close-apps" if you want all apps to be closed before
installing it, etc.

The meta package for a system update will typically use something like
"Maemo-Flags: system-update, reboot, suggest-backup".  We might need
to extend this a bit to cover flashing of kernel and initfs in a nice
way.
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Frédéric Crozat]

Le samedi 20 octobre 2007 à 10:24 +0300, Kalle Valo a écrit :
> "ext Frederic Crozat" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Just curious : is the n800 really supposed to last "days" when connected
> > via Wifi (with full WLAN Power Save mode enabled), without any
> > disconnect timeout and anything doing network access on the wifi link ?
> 
> Short answer: Yes, even with the default WLAN PSM settings.

Thanks you. So, let's investigate to find what is causing those bad
performance

> Long answer: It depends on your network. Here are few items which
> mostly affect WLAN power consumption:
> 
> o N800 transmitting something periodically (once in a minute is not
>   bad, once in a second is really bad, Google talk has 30s interval
>   which is ok).

I've disabled any program which might do network query in background.

> o Buggy AP which does not support WLAN PSM properly.

My AP (Freebox, an ISP set-top-box) seems to support WLAN PSM properly.
I also have a Fonera. Is there any way to check, from n800 side, if WLAN
PSM isn't working properly ? (I've enabled full PSM and pings are still
working)

> o distance to AP (WLAN background scan will kick in if the signal level is
>   -75 dBm or less)

Not a problem here, I'm in about 2 to 5 meters of AP.

> o Lots of broadcast and multicast packets on the network (like
>   Windows samba broadcasts).

No Windows (nor Samba) on the network.

However, I tried to run tcpdump on n800 to see what is going on.

It seems Nintendo Wii "standby mode" is causing arp and DNS query, seen
on n800, every 10 minutes.

Since I have two AP available, I'll try to configure both n800 and Wii
to use separate networks, to check if it improves situation.

> Also WLAN settings (beacon and DTIM interval) affect power
> consumption, but not before the issues I have listed above are ruled
> out. And this was only about issues related to WLAN, if there are
> other processes waking up the CPU that will naturally affect the
> standby time.

I've learned this the hard way with Canola last year, with my 770 :)
Now, I make sure there is no server or background stuff running when
doing tests..

> For the background scan there are going to be some optimisations in
> OS2008, for example the limit will be lowered to -85 dBm.

Wonderful.

> > When I check battery applet (which is really great btw), I'm never sure
> > if the "in use" time is applicable when being idle AND wifi connected.
> 
> The applet does not provide WLAN standby time at all, sorry.

Ok.

> > I know I disable network auto-connect and set disconnect timeout to 5min
> > because I had bad experience with first IT2007 version (before full WLAN
> > Power Save mode gconf key were given here). Maybe I should try it
> > again..
> 
> I think you should, you might be pleasently surprised. If not, I would
> guess that after a bit of investigation you might find what's causing
> the high power consumption. tcpdump is your friend. And if you have
> any questions, post them here.

Can we expect any improvement when changing WLAN power from 100mA to
10mA ? 

-- 
Frédéric Crozat 
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support and the repository question

[Krischan Keitsch]

Am Freitag, 19. Oktober 2007 schrieb Steve Greenland:
> According to Krischan Keitsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > The optimum may be between the two - meaning we need some kind of
> > a quality management for the community efforts. To approve that
> > just verified and checked apps are in the official and universe
> > repositories. So that Jill Random and ourselves can benefit from rock
> > solid high quality apps. What do you think?
>
> Who is going to do the testing and certification? It's a lot of work,
> and not particularly rewarding. And I can guarantee that sooner or later
> some developers will feel personally maltreated by any such group.

Good point. 
>
> Probably the easiest workable solution is something like the Debian
> unstable/testing process, whereby packages are uploaded to unstable, and
> migrate to testing after meeting certain criteria (no new serious bugs,
> installs with only other testing packages, etc.)
>
Maybe a rating mechanism could help to qualify which app could go to the main 
repository (stable)? (Within the constrains of licence, ...) Apps with a low 
rating will then be "parked" in unstable? Apps from maemo download can be 
rated already. 

That would not require a testing and certification team. However, clear rules 
are required to make this process transparent.

> But I'd settle for just getting people to use one repo, rather than
> setting up there own.
>
That would be a step in the right direction.

Regards 
Krischan

> Regards,
> Steve





___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Krischan Keitsch]

Am Samstag, 20. Oktober 2007 schrieben Sie:
> "ext Krischan Keitsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> >> It's a shame that there are so many broken APs on the market. I see
> >> lots of them when dealing with bug reports :( I guess WLAN Power Save
> >> Mode was really rare earlier, but fortunately nowadays it's getting
> >> more popular and AP manufactures have noticed the problem.
> >
> > Hi Kalle,
> > I had a similar problem with my Siemens sx541 wlan dsl router using dhcp.
> > The n800 keeps sending dhcp requests. That caused up to 20 - 30% cpu
> > usage and drains the battery really fast.
> >
> > (See Bug 1627 & Bug 1646)
> >
> > Switching to a fixed ip solved that problem for me.
>
> Yeah, if applications send lots of data, naturally that will increase
> power consumption dramatically. For these cases it would helpful if
> you could install tcpdump to the device and take a dump of traffic.
> You could do it like this:
>
> tcpdump -i wlan -w dhcp-1.cap
>
> And then attach dhcp-1.cap to the bug report. That would help a lot.

Hi Kalle,

I tried to add a comment to Bug 1627 [1] but maemozilla wouldn't let me login 
and refuses to send me a password. Hmm.
I also have the tcpdump and will try later to attach that to the bug report.

Regards Krischan


[1] https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1627

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[James Sparenberg]

On Friday 19 October 2007 09:44:53 Steve Greenland wrote:
> According to James Sparenberg  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > I fully understand what it's doing  but not why it's doing it.  Since
> > the act of doing the first update is the equivalent of "apt-get update" 
> > However if you use Adept/Synaptic/dpkg etc the act of the update
> > accumulates all of this information in one act.
>
> No, they don't.
>
> Every time you start aptitude, it has to read the dpkg and apt database
> files and load its internal data structures, even if you haven't done
> an update. Every time you run an install, after it completes, aptitude
> has to re-read the files/caches and reload its internal data structures.
> The AM is doing the same, reading the dpkg database and loading its GUI
> list structures. What makes it painful is that you can only act on one
> package at time.
>
> Regards,
> Steve

I'll concede that it could be a perceptual point more than anything.  But some 
aspects are in one act.  When I do an apt-get update  not only does it check 
for changes to the DB but it also adjust them IAW my existing DB.  Or am I 
making myself as clear as mud.  ( I know what I want to say and most likely 
I'm to tired to say it. Creating a new installer for my companies production 
environments.)

And yes the one at a time is painful and IMHO leads to frustration and me 
using apt.

James

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support and the repository question

[James Sparenberg]

On Friday 19 October 2007 09:30:50 Steve Greenland wrote:
> According to Krischan Keitsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > The optimum may be between the two - meaning we need some kind of
> > a quality management for the community efforts. To approve that
> > just verified and checked apps are in the official and universe
> > repositories. So that Jill Random and ourselves can benefit from rock
> > solid high quality apps. What do you think?
>
> Who is going to do the testing and certification? It's a lot of work,
> and not particularly rewarding. And I can guarantee that sooner or later
> some developers will feel personally maltreated by any such group.
>
> Probably the easiest workable solution is something like the Debian
> unstable/testing process, whereby packages are uploaded to unstable, and
> migrate to testing after meeting certain criteria (no new serious bugs,
> installs with only other testing packages, etc.)
>
> But I'd settle for just getting people to use one repo, rather than
> setting up there own.
>
> Regards,
> Steve

Heck I'm hoping for an agreement on how to spell "Utilities"  (Ok cheap shot 
meant to be humorous not mean.)  But case sensitive does yield fun in this 
area.

James



___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[James Sparenberg]

On Friday 19 October 2007 09:26:07 Steve Greenland wrote:
> According to James Sparenberg  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > On Thursday 18 October 2007 11:30:34 Marius Gedminas wrote:
> > > I sincerely hope Maemo Extras rejects sourceless packages.
> > >
> > > Marius Gedminas
> >
> > Marius,
> >
> >I would hope that they reject binary packages period, in that like
> > every distro I've worked with you submit a src (rpm deb tgz etc) and the
> > distro builds from that file so that at least some assurance can be made
> > that it's build from the correct environment.
>
> Actually, Debian requires a binary upload of at least one architecture.
> Then the autobuilders build for all the other architectures.
>
> About once a year someone proposes source-only uploads. The argument
> against is that with a binary upload, you have at least some hope that
> the developer has installed and tested the package. With source-only
> uploads, there the temptation to make "just one little change" and
> upload without building and testing.
>
> Maintaining an auto-build system is non-trivial.
>
> Regards,
> Steve

Steve,

I can agree that maintaining an auto-build will drive you nuts. I maintain 
part of the one we have at our company.  (what do you mean it lost a file?)  
I know what had to be done at Mandrake both for new releases and for back 
ports.  Here though there is the "Apple Advantage" in that the environments 
are tightly controlled by Nokia.  All 770's match hardware.  No two x86 
systems are alike.  

On the binary vs source uploads I guess it's obvious where I stand.  I'm a 
lot more paranoid than I should be most likely.

James



___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[James Sparenberg]

On Friday 19 October 2007 08:35:51 dave wrote:
> > It should stay online for days, not hours. Something is wrong with
> > your setup. I would guess that the AP is somehow broken regards to
> > WLAN Power Save Mode. Can you try with some other AP to see if it
> > helps? Also make sure that N800 isn't transmitting anything extra, for
> > example transmitting a packet every second would kill the battery
> > quite quickly.
> >
> > Alternatively you could use a wireless sniffer to take a dump of WLAN
> > level traffic and send it to me. I could take a look and see if
> > there's something strange.
> >
> > It's a shame that there are so many broken APs on the market. I see
> > lots of them when dealing with bug reports :( I guess WLAN Power Save
> > Mode was really rare earlier, but fortunately nowadays it's getting
> > more popular and AP manufactures have noticed the problem.
>
> hmmm. My N800 recently  began running the battery dry in only a half day or
> so; as you mention, it used to go days between charges. This began suddenly
> with no change in habits or new packages having been installed. Since I
> really only use the device at home and at work, I ruled out anything to do
> with the whether or not the APs support WLAN Power Save Mode. As I said, it
> all worked great until recently.
>
> It is frustrating. Even if I charge overnight, I'm sure to hear the N800's
> plaintive wail for the power adapter just after lunchtime. Could my battery
> simply be dying? Is there any way to check?
>
>
Thinking out load here. But I wonder if a phone store that sells Nokia phones 
would be able to test the battery?  

James
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[James Sparenberg]

On Friday 19 October 2007 05:02:26 Frederic Crozat wrote:

> Just curious : is the n800 really supposed to last "days" when connected
> via Wifi (with full WLAN Power Save mode enabled), without any
> disconnect timeout and anything doing network access on the wifi link ?
>
> When I check battery applet (which is really great btw), I'm never sure
> if the "in use" time is applicable when being idle AND wifi connected.
>
> I know I disable network auto-connect and set disconnect timeout to 5min
> because I had bad experience with first IT2007 version (before full WLAN
> Power Save mode gconf key were given here). Maybe I should try it
> again..

One note.  If you (like I) move around a lot, as in driving down the highway.  
Your poor IT can go nuts trying to find a connection. *grin*  When I first 
got my 800  I noticed that when I left work, and drove home down the freeway 
by the time I got home (1 hour later) my battery had dropped 50%  so I 
disable the auto connect and no problem.  

The 800 isn't too good at searches done at 80mph  

Other thing I learned.  Don't put it on phone autoconnect.  Kills your phone 
battery.

James



___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Kalle Valo]

"ext dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> hmmm. My N800 recently  began running the battery dry in only a half day or
> so; as you mention, it used to go days between charges. This began suddenly
> with no change in habits or new packages having been installed. Since I
> really only use the device at home and at work, I ruled out anything to do
> with the whether or not the APs support WLAN Power Save Mode. As I said, it
> all worked great until recently.

Any changes to the network, new equipment or new software installed?
For example, some software sending lots of broadcast messages to the
network?

> It is frustrating. Even if I charge overnight, I'm sure to hear the N800's
> plaintive wail for the power adapter just after lunchtime.

It sure is.

> Could my battery simply be dying? Is there any way to check?

I would try testing the battery without WLAN and anything else
running, just in standby mode. It should last about 10 days like that.
If not, either there is something waking up the CPU all the or the
battery is broken.

I know that it's difficult to not use N800 for ten whole days. I
couldn't do it ;)

-- 
Kalle Valo
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[James Sparenberg]

On Friday 19 October 2007 03:51:29 Marius Vollmer wrote:
> "ext Marius Gedminas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > My personal pet peeve with the app manager is all those confirmation
> > dialogs.
>
> Yeah, and there will be more in the future...  There should be at
> least one before starting the operation, and we can't get rid of the
> legal "Notice" dialog for non-certified software.

(misc grumbling about lawyers and baby boomers) *grin*
>
> When using the AM to install system software updates, there will be
> lots more: "please take a backup", "all applications will be closed,
> continue?", "device will reboot, continue?", "don't touch me while I
> do scary things to the kernel", maybe even more.  We should try to
> combine these messages.

As long as the message doesn't say "Do you really mean you really want to do 
what you just said you really wanted to do"  I can live with them.   Info is 
good,  however where you can the little "don't ask me again box" is good 
practice IMHO.

James


___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Kalle Valo]

"ext Krischan Keitsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>>
>> It's a shame that there are so many broken APs on the market. I see
>> lots of them when dealing with bug reports :( I guess WLAN Power Save
>> Mode was really rare earlier, but fortunately nowadays it's getting
>> more popular and AP manufactures have noticed the problem.
>
> Hi Kalle,
> I had a similar problem with my Siemens sx541 wlan dsl router using dhcp. The 
> n800 keeps sending dhcp requests. That caused up to 20 - 30% cpu usage and 
> drains the battery really fast. 
>
> (See Bug 1627 & Bug 1646)
>
> Switching to a fixed ip solved that problem for me. 

Yeah, if applications send lots of data, naturally that will increase
power consumption dramatically. For these cases it would helpful if
you could install tcpdump to the device and take a dump of traffic.
You could do it like this:

tcpdump -i wlan -w dhcp-1.cap

And then attach dhcp-1.cap to the bug report. That would help a lot.

-- 
Kalle Valo
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Kalle Valo]

"ext Frederic Crozat" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Just curious : is the n800 really supposed to last "days" when connected
> via Wifi (with full WLAN Power Save mode enabled), without any
> disconnect timeout and anything doing network access on the wifi link ?

Short answer: Yes, even with the default WLAN PSM settings.

Long answer: It depends on your network. Here are few items which
mostly affect WLAN power consumption:

o N800 transmitting something periodically (once in a minute is not
  bad, once in a second is really bad, Google talk has 30s interval
  which is ok).
o Buggy AP which does not support WLAN PSM properly.
o distance to AP (WLAN background scan will kick in if the signal level is
  -75 dBm or less)
o Lots of broadcast and multicast packets on the network (like
  Windows samba broadcasts).

Also WLAN settings (beacon and DTIM interval) affect power
consumption, but not before the issues I have listed above are ruled
out. And this was only about issues related to WLAN, if there are
other processes waking up the CPU that will naturally affect the
standby time.

For the background scan there are going to be some optimisations in
OS2008, for example the limit will be lowered to -85 dBm.

> When I check battery applet (which is really great btw), I'm never sure
> if the "in use" time is applicable when being idle AND wifi connected.

The applet does not provide WLAN standby time at all, sorry.

> I know I disable network auto-connect and set disconnect timeout to 5min
> because I had bad experience with first IT2007 version (before full WLAN
> Power Save mode gconf key were given here). Maybe I should try it
> again..

I think you should, you might be pleasently surprised. If not, I would
guess that after a bit of investigation you might find what's causing
the high power consumption. tcpdump is your friend. And if you have
any questions, post them here.

-- 
Kalle Valo
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Frédéric Crozat]

Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 22:11 +0300, Marius Gedminas a écrit :
> On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 04:26:07PM +, Steve Greenland wrote:
> > According to James Sparenberg  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > > On Thursday 18 October 2007 11:30:34 Marius Gedminas wrote:
> > > > I sincerely hope Maemo Extras rejects sourceless packages.
> > >
> > >I would hope that they reject binary packages period, in that like 
> > > every 
> > > distro I've worked with you submit a src (rpm deb tgz etc) and the distro 
> > > builds from that file so that at least some assurance can be made that 
> > > it's 
> > > build from the correct environment.  
> > 
> > Actually, Debian requires a binary upload of at least one architecture.
> > Then the autobuilders build for all the other architectures.
> > 
> > About once a year someone proposes source-only uploads. The argument
> > against is that with a binary upload, you have at least some hope that
> > the developer has installed and tested the package. With source-only
> > uploads, there the temptation to make "just one little change" and
> > upload without building and testing.
> 
> IIRC Ubuntu has source-only uploads.  This seems to work for them.

Same for Mandriva ;)

-- 
Frédéric Crozat 
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Marius Gedminas]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 04:26:07PM +, Steve Greenland wrote:
> According to James Sparenberg  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > On Thursday 18 October 2007 11:30:34 Marius Gedminas wrote:
> > > I sincerely hope Maemo Extras rejects sourceless packages.
> >
> >I would hope that they reject binary packages period, in that like every 
> > distro I've worked with you submit a src (rpm deb tgz etc) and the distro 
> > builds from that file so that at least some assurance can be made that it's 
> > build from the correct environment.  
> 
> Actually, Debian requires a binary upload of at least one architecture.
> Then the autobuilders build for all the other architectures.
> 
> About once a year someone proposes source-only uploads. The argument
> against is that with a binary upload, you have at least some hope that
> the developer has installed and tested the package. With source-only
> uploads, there the temptation to make "just one little change" and
> upload without building and testing.

IIRC Ubuntu has source-only uploads.  This seems to work for them.

> Maintaining an auto-build system is non-trivial.

That it is, but I think one is necessary for a Debian-like package
installation experience (apt-get install and it Just Works(TM),
usually).  Without a build system every maintainer is burdened with the
need to have Scratchbox targets for all the existing SDK versions.

mud-builder is heading in that direction.  Last time I checked it didn't
use the Debian build tools and built packages that were slightly weird
(vim got version "70" rather than 7.0.0, and I couldn't find a way to
increment the version number when I built an updated package).  I kept
meaning to investigate it a bit more and give some feedback, but never
got around to it :(

Marius Gedminas
-- 
C is for Cookies.  Perl is even better for Cookies.


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Marius Gedminas]

On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 11:32:12AM +0300, Kalle Valo wrote:
> "ext Marius Gedminas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > I could keep my tablet online all the time, of course, but then the
> > battery wouldn't last till the end of the day.
> 
> It should stay online for days, not hours.

I didn't mean to imply that it drains the battery in a few hours while
idle.  It drains the battery in a few hours of e-book reading, with the
screen on.  Keeping the tablet offline increases my e-book reading time
a bit.

Also, I have load-applet and statusbarclock installed, and these
probably don't help with power savings.

Marius Gedminas
-- 
If it wasn't for C, we'd be using BASI, PASAL and OBOL


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Steve Greenland]

According to Marius Vollmer  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> How important is it to fix this?  I'm working on the assumption that
> you would only activate "Show all packages" in an emergency, but would
> usually leave it off (precisely because it decreases the useability so
> much).

The problem is that while in theory, I could just display all the
packages in a particular cagetory, or even only the "users/*"
categories, in practice the category stuff is so screwed up that the
only way to find anything is browsing the "all" lists.

This screwup isn't your fault, of course; it's the lack of having a
standard policy document to guide developers. Even what there is isn't
consistent. Consider the 3-.x "Making a package for the Application
Manager in maemo 3.x" document. It says:

The AI only shows packages in the "user" section. Thus, your
"Section:" field in the control file should be of the form
"user/", where SUBSECTION is arbitrary. SUBSECTION
should be a nice capitalised, English word like "Ringtones"

Then it shows examples like:

# user/accessories Accessories
# user/communication Communication

So, what goes in the control file? "user/accessories" or
"user/Accessories" or "user/accessories Accessories"? Two of the three
violate the previous definition, and the examples don't even follow the
form.

Writing policy (standards, basically) is hard, of course. (I was
involved in a lot of the early Debian policy documentation.) But to have
a working thirdparty developer community, it's necessary. A complete
anarchy does not lead to good results.

At lot people miss the fact that the reason Debian packages have such
a good reputation (compared to RPMs, particulary RPMs from the Redhat
5-8 era), has very little to do with the technology of .deb and a huge
amount to do with the Debian policy effort.

Steve
-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Steve Greenland]

According to James Sparenberg  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I fully understand what it's doing  but not why it's doing it.  Since the 
> act of doing the first update is the equivalent of "apt-get update"  However 
> if you use Adept/Synaptic/dpkg etc the act of the update accumulates all of 
> this information in one act.  

No, they don't. 

Every time you start aptitude, it has to read the dpkg and apt database
files and load its internal data structures, even if you haven't done
an update. Every time you run an install, after it completes, aptitude
has to re-read the files/caches and reload its internal data structures.
The AM is doing the same, reading the dpkg database and loading its GUI
list structures. What makes it painful is that you can only act on one
package at time.

Regards,
Steve

-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Steve Greenland]

According to Marius Vollmer  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> "ext Marius Gedminas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > My personal pet peeve with the app manager is all those confirmation
> > dialogs.
> 
> Yeah, and there will be more in the future...  There should be at
> least one before starting the operation,

Please Ghod no. 

I confirmed the operation when I selected "install" or "remove". In the
rare occasion when I didn't mean to, the worst consequence is that I
have to remove or re-install some app.

The obvious exception, of course, is attempting to remove some required
package, or removing something that's going to break dependencies.

> and we can't get rid of the legal "Notice" dialog for non-certified
> software.

How about letting me mark repos as "okay by me"or is this just a
case where I need to be a poweruser and use apt-get?

> When using the AM to install system software updates, there will be
> lots more: "please take a backup", "all applications will be closed,
> continue?", "device will reboot, continue?", "don't touch me while
> I do scary things to the kernel", maybe even more. We should try to
> combine these messages.

This needs some thought -- in particular, what defines a "system
software update"? Upgrading the whole system to ITS2008, sure. A kernel
upgrade, probably. But what if the upgrade is just one required package?
Remember, by doing per-package upgrades, you can get this kind of
choice.

Steve
-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support and the repository question

[Steve Greenland]

According to Krischan Keitsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> The optimum may be between the two - meaning we need some kind of
> a quality management for the community efforts. To approve that
> just verified and checked apps are in the official and universe
> repositories. So that Jill Random and ourselves can benefit from rock
> solid high quality apps. What do you think?

Who is going to do the testing and certification? It's a lot of work,
and not particularly rewarding. And I can guarantee that sooner or later
some developers will feel personally maltreated by any such group.

Probably the easiest workable solution is something like the Debian
unstable/testing process, whereby packages are uploaded to unstable, and
migrate to testing after meeting certain criteria (no new serious bugs,
installs with only other testing packages, etc.)

But I'd settle for just getting people to use one repo, rather than
setting up there own.

Regards,
Steve
-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Steve Greenland]

According to James Sparenberg  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On Thursday 18 October 2007 11:30:34 Marius Gedminas wrote:
> > I sincerely hope Maemo Extras rejects sourceless packages.
> >
> > Marius Gedminas
> 
> Marius, 
> 
>I would hope that they reject binary packages period, in that like every 
> distro I've worked with you submit a src (rpm deb tgz etc) and the distro 
> builds from that file so that at least some assurance can be made that it's 
> build from the correct environment.  

Actually, Debian requires a binary upload of at least one architecture.
Then the autobuilders build for all the other architectures.

About once a year someone proposes source-only uploads. The argument
against is that with a binary upload, you have at least some hope that
the developer has installed and tested the package. With source-only
uploads, there the temptation to make "just one little change" and
upload without building and testing.

Maintaining an auto-build system is non-trivial.

Regards,
Steve

-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[dave]

>
>
> It should stay online for days, not hours. Something is wrong with
> your setup. I would guess that the AP is somehow broken regards to
> WLAN Power Save Mode. Can you try with some other AP to see if it
> helps? Also make sure that N800 isn't transmitting anything extra, for
> example transmitting a packet every second would kill the battery
> quite quickly.
>
> Alternatively you could use a wireless sniffer to take a dump of WLAN
> level traffic and send it to me. I could take a look and see if
> there's something strange.
>
> It's a shame that there are so many broken APs on the market. I see
> lots of them when dealing with bug reports :( I guess WLAN Power Save
> Mode was really rare earlier, but fortunately nowadays it's getting
> more popular and AP manufactures have noticed the problem.


hmmm. My N800 recently  began running the battery dry in only a half day or
so; as you mention, it used to go days between charges. This began suddenly
with no change in habits or new packages having been installed. Since I
really only use the device at home and at work, I ruled out anything to do
with the whether or not the APs support WLAN Power Save Mode. As I said, it
all worked great until recently.

It is frustrating. Even if I charge overnight, I'm sure to hear the N800's
plaintive wail for the power adapter just after lunchtime. Could my battery
simply be dying? Is there any way to check?

thanks
Dave
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Frederic Crozat]

Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 15:07 +0200, Tilman Vogel a écrit :
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Frederic Crozat schrieb:
> > And to do that, we need "expected to work but doesn't work" ogg support
> > package. And unfortunately, neither mogg or ogg-support packages are in
> > this state for n800 (one lack schema and the other is not registering
> > the correct mimetype) :(
> 
> The mogg source is up in the download section and in svn and it's easy
> to repackage! I am more than happy about solutions/patches! I don't have
> an N800 to try it out!
> 
> Tilman
> 
> PS. Rant is a good start, but action and contributions cannot be
> substituted.

You're right :)

Could you try apply the attached patch (I've take the liberty to check
ogg-support package as well as latest version of shared-mime-info for
ogg support) ? It should make sure the correct mimetype are 


-- 
Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Index: usr/share/mime/packages/ogg-vorbis.xml
===
--- usr/share/mime/packages/ogg-vorbis.xml	(revision 9)
+++ usr/share/mime/packages/ogg-vorbis.xml	(working copy)
@@ -1,10 +1,28 @@
 
 http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/shared-mime-info";>
-  
+  
 
+
+OGG multimedia
+  
+   
+Ogg Audio
+
 
-  
+  
 
-OGG audio
+
+
   
+  
+
+Ogg Vorbis audio
+
+  
+
+  
+
+
+
+  
 
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Krischan Keitsch]

Am Freitag, 19. Oktober 2007 schrieb Frederic Crozat:
> Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 12:11 +0200, Krischan Keitsch a écrit :
> > Am Freitag, 19. Oktober 2007 schrieb Frederic Crozat:
> > > Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 11:59 +0300, Eero Tamminen a écrit :
> > > > So, there shouldn't be any need for any Maemo specific specs, these
> > > > things are documented in upstream projects.  There should still be
> > > > a tutorial how to do these things though.
> > >
> > > Tutorial is already available in Maemo 3.x SDK documentation, but we
> > > aren't sure it is working as expected, because of mediaplayer
> > > "blackbox".
> > >
> > > > If there are still some problems after codec has been
> > > > correctly registered to gstreamer and mime-type database:
> > > > - gstreamer not recognizing the file type correctly
> > >
> > > I don't think it is the case, using :
> > >
> > > gst-launcher filesrc location=test.ogg  ! decodebin ! audioconvert !
> > > dsppcmsink does work, so gstreamer is handling the file correctly.
> >
> > We are spinning in circles. We have been there too many times already!
>
> So, let's break the circle.

Yes! That's the spirit!

>
> Using incantation won't change things. I prefer action.
>
> > > > - mediaplayer not playing the file
> > >
> > > I think the problem is here, unfortunately :(
> > >
> > > Developper documentation is a little too scarce about media player,
> > > unfortunately.> .
> >
> > Unfortunately. Am I wrong when I identify the missing source of the media
> > player as part of the problem? Or has it been released yet?
>
> It is one part of the problem but even if we had the source, it wouldn't
> ensure the problem is fixed.
>
> And I'm not in a mood to blame Nokia for not releasing Media Player
> source code. It is part of their policy to not release code from UI
> based application, I respect that, even if I regret it.
>
> So, now, the important thing is either to find if the gconf
> configuration for Media Player is wrong and can be fixed or if the
> problem is in Media Player itself (help from some Nokia dudes welcome
> here, hint hint :)
>
> > > > - file manager or browser not launching the media player properly
> > >
> > > This part works fine, mediaplayer is launched properly
> > >
> > > > Please file bugs.
> >
> > 
> > Like Bug 176, opened 2005-10-30?
> > https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176
> > 
>
> I think you can drop this kind of reply. And I'm serious. This bring
> nowhere.
>

You are right. Sarcasm leads nowhere. I just wanted to point out that the 
community (and therefore the custumers) have been requesting ogg support 
since the beginning! 

> > > As a sidenote, from my distribution persective (I'm GNOME maintainer at
> > > Mandriva), Maemo community "fragmentation" about packages and
> > > duplicated work is killing me :( There seems to be a lot of energy
> > > around there but often doing the thing or not using infrastructure
> > > available thanks to Garage (for instance, some people are only using
> > > garage as a way to ship files and don't store their source code in
> > > SVN).
> >
> > I have been wondering that as well many times. How come that this
> > community is 'fragmented'? What is causing it?
>
> I don't think it is a problem of the "community" or "infrastructure" but
> more of a lack of common practices, which are already in place in
> various other distributions or project, from new people trying to work
> on Maemo-based software.

Regards Krischan


___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Tilman Vogel]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Frederic Crozat schrieb:
> And to do that, we need "expected to work but doesn't work" ogg support
> package. And unfortunately, neither mogg or ogg-support packages are in
> this state for n800 (one lack schema and the other is not registering
> the correct mimetype) :(

The mogg source is up in the download section and in svn and it's easy
to repackage! I am more than happy about solutions/patches! I don't have
an N800 to try it out!

Tilman

PS. Rant is a good start, but action and contributions cannot be
substituted.


-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHGKwg9ZPu6Yae8lkRAlJlAJ4jK/AEZ3xSTg2UjS6ZR65E1MOYRQCggdse
g2MUU5SbAfQdZuPsPgg72uw=
=3uUJ
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Frederic Crozat]

Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 15:14 +0300, Eero Tamminen a écrit :
> Hi,
> 
> ext Krischan Keitsch wrote:
> >>> - mediaplayer not playing the file
> >> I think the problem is here, unfortunately :(
> >>
> >> Developper documentation is a little too scarce about media player,
> >> unfortunately.> . 
> > 
> > Unfortunately. Am I wrong when I identify the missing source of the media 
> > player as part of the problem? Or has it been released yet?
> > 
> >>> - file manager or browser not launching the media player properly
> >> This part works fine, mediaplayer is launched properly
> >>
> >>> Please file bugs.
> > 
> > Like Bug 176, opened 2005-10-30? 
> > https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176
> > 
> 
> This is clearly a different issue.  That bug is about ogg/theora support
> for N770 Mediaplayer, not about Mediaplayer in newer releases supporting
> user installed codecs.
> 
> Bug about this should be something like this:
> 
> STEPS TO REPRODUCE:
> 1. Install code package codec-foo from repository bar
> 2. Browse to URL foo.bar.org/songs.html and tap to the song.foo file
> 
> EXPECTED RESULT:
> - Mediaplayer starts to play nice-song.foo

And to do that, we need "expected to work but doesn't work" ogg support
package. And unfortunately, neither mogg or ogg-support packages are in
this state for n800 (one lack schema and the other is not registering
the correct mimetype) :(

-- 
Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Eero Tamminen]

Hi,

ext Krischan Keitsch wrote:
>>> - mediaplayer not playing the file
>> I think the problem is here, unfortunately :(
>>
>> Developper documentation is a little too scarce about media player,
>> unfortunately.> . 
> 
> Unfortunately. Am I wrong when I identify the missing source of the media 
> player as part of the problem? Or has it been released yet?
> 
>>> - file manager or browser not launching the media player properly
>> This part works fine, mediaplayer is launched properly
>>
>>> Please file bugs.
> 
> Like Bug 176, opened 2005-10-30? 
> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176
> 

This is clearly a different issue.  That bug is about ogg/theora support
for N770 Mediaplayer, not about Mediaplayer in newer releases supporting
user installed codecs.

Bug about this should be something like this:

STEPS TO REPRODUCE:
1. Install code package codec-foo from repository bar
2. Browse to URL foo.bar.org/songs.html and tap to the song.foo file

EXPECTED RESULT:
- Mediaplayer starts to play nice-song.foo


- Eero
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Frederic Crozat]

Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 11:32 +0300, Kalle Valo a écrit :
> "ext Marius Gedminas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > You know what the killer feature is?  Automatic wifi connection.  I
> > absolutely hate it when I have to tap the silly little globe, then tap
> > the connect menu item, then wait a few boring seconds for my wifi network
> > to appear, then press ok.  Only then I can ssh into my n800 and use
> > apt-get.
> >
> > I could keep my tablet online all the time, of course, but then the
> > battery wouldn't last till the end of the day.
> 
> It should stay online for days, not hours. Something is wrong with
> your setup. I would guess that the AP is somehow broken regards to
> WLAN Power Save Mode. Can you try with some other AP to see if it
> helps? Also make sure that N800 isn't transmitting anything extra, for
> example transmitting a packet every second would kill the battery
> quite quickly.

Just curious : is the n800 really supposed to last "days" when connected
via Wifi (with full WLAN Power Save mode enabled), without any
disconnect timeout and anything doing network access on the wifi link ?

When I check battery applet (which is really great btw), I'm never sure
if the "in use" time is applicable when being idle AND wifi connected.

I know I disable network auto-connect and set disconnect timeout to 5min
because I had bad experience with first IT2007 version (before full WLAN
Power Save mode gconf key were given here). Maybe I should try it
again..

-- 
Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Marius Vollmer]

"ext James Sparenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> 1.  the "update packages" event.  Every action requires that a full
> on rescan of the system be done.  Each one taking between 30 to 60
> seconds to complete.

If it takes this long, you probably have the "Show all packages"
option activated.  Yes, if your lists contains many packages, the AM
is not nice, as you have observed.  Updating the display takes too
long and searching, which is important with long lists, is not
convenient enough.

How important is it to fix this?  I'm working on the assumption that
you would only activate "Show all packages" in an emergency, but would
usually leave it off (precisely because it decreases the useability so
much).

> 2.  Searches that return me to the wrong screen.  If for example I want to 
> install pidgin.  I search for pidgin and rightfully get a number of packages 
> (many I need to install some I don't want period) I have to do the following.
>
>   a.  open AM
>   b.  get asked if I want to update package lists.

This does not need to happen every time.  You can switch this off with
"Tools > Settings".

>   c.  click to browse installable packages.
>   d.  wait for update packages (why it just did an update.)

Ideally, the wait should be short.  Also, there is no duplication of
work: it is getting the list of packages in the background immediately
after the "apt-get update".  It just takes so long that it hasn't
finished when you switch to the "Browse installable applications"
view.

>   c.  search for pidgin.
>   d.  chose to install 1st package.
>   e.  click yes I want to install
>   d.  Click yes I know it doesn't come from Nokia
>   e.  Click OK for the install

What is step "e"?  I don't think there is another confirmation after
"d".

>   f.  package gets installed
>   g.  click for placement of icon in menu
>   h.  wait for update packages.
>   i.  search for pidgin.

Yep, that's a short cut we took in the implementation.  Instead of
redoing the search, we just returned to the "Browse installable
applications" view.  When thinking about improving search, we should
have incremental searching ("search as you type") and/or filtering.

>   j.  etc etc etc etc until all 6 or 7 packages are installed.

I blame that on pidgin that you need to install so many individual
packages.

But although I am being defensive here, it is good to hear that people
are stretching the AM beyond it's intended use.  There is clearly lots
of room for improvement.

Feel free to play with the code:

http://hildon-app-mgr.garage.maemo.org/devel.html

Everything that only affects red-pill mode or optimizes performance
should be relatively easy to squeeze into the official version.
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Marius Vollmer]

"ext Steve Greenland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>> (In other words, it is conservative when removing things. Not like
>> aptitude that goes and deletes half your OS if you are not careful..
>> :)
>
> Aww, cmon, this is mostly fixed in aptitude these days. Besides, it made
> life exciting!

Yep, I should try aptitude again, but first impressions are hard to
overcome...  (I also don't the prolog impersonation that aptitude puts
on sometimes: accept this solution or look at another equally obscure
one?)
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Frederic Crozat]

Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 12:11 +0200, Krischan Keitsch a écrit :
> Am Freitag, 19. Oktober 2007 schrieb Frederic Crozat:
> > Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 11:59 +0300, Eero Tamminen a écrit :
> > > So, there shouldn't be any need for any Maemo specific specs, these
> > > things are documented in upstream projects.  There should still be
> > > a tutorial how to do these things though.
> >
> > Tutorial is already available in Maemo 3.x SDK documentation, but we
> > aren't sure it is working as expected, because of mediaplayer
> > "blackbox".
> >
> > > If there are still some problems after codec has been
> > > correctly registered to gstreamer and mime-type database:
> > > - gstreamer not recognizing the file type correctly
> >
> > I don't think it is the case, using :
> >
> > gst-launcher filesrc location=test.ogg  ! decodebin ! audioconvert !
> > dsppcmsink does work, so gstreamer is handling the file correctly.
> >
> We are spinning in circles. We have been there too many times already!

So, let's break the circle.

Using incantation won't change things. I prefer action.

> > > - mediaplayer not playing the file
> >
> > I think the problem is here, unfortunately :(
> >
> > Developper documentation is a little too scarce about media player,
> > unfortunately.> . 
> 
> Unfortunately. Am I wrong when I identify the missing source of the media 
> player as part of the problem? Or has it been released yet?

It is one part of the problem but even if we had the source, it wouldn't
ensure the problem is fixed.

And I'm not in a mood to blame Nokia for not releasing Media Player
source code. It is part of their policy to not release code from UI
based application, I respect that, even if I regret it.

So, now, the important thing is either to find if the gconf
configuration for Media Player is wrong and can be fixed or if the
problem is in Media Player itself (help from some Nokia dudes welcome
here, hint hint :)

> > > - file manager or browser not launching the media player properly
> >
> > This part works fine, mediaplayer is launched properly
> >
> > > Please file bugs.
> 
> Like Bug 176, opened 2005-10-30? 
> https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176
> 

I think you can drop this kind of reply. And I'm serious. This bring
nowhere.

> > As a sidenote, from my distribution persective (I'm GNOME maintainer at
> > Mandriva), Maemo community "fragmentation" about packages and duplicated
> > work is killing me :( There seems to be a lot of energy around there but
> > often doing the thing or not using infrastructure available thanks to
> > Garage (for instance, some people are only using garage as a way to ship
> > files and don't store their source code in SVN).
> I have been wondering that as well many times. How come that this community 
> is 'fragmented'? What is causing it?

I don't think it is a problem of the "community" or "infrastructure" but
more of a lack of common practices, which are already in place in
various other distributions or project, from new people trying to work
on Maemo-based software.

-- 
Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Marius Vollmer]

"ext Marius Gedminas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> My personal pet peeve with the app manager is all those confirmation
> dialogs.

Yeah, and there will be more in the future...  There should be at
least one before starting the operation, and we can't get rid of the
legal "Notice" dialog for non-certified software.

When using the AM to install system software updates, there will be
lots more: "please take a backup", "all applications will be closed,
continue?", "device will reboot, continue?", "don't touch me while I
do scary things to the kernel", maybe even more.  We should try to
combine these messages.
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Krischan Keitsch]

Am Freitag, 19. Oktober 2007 schrieb Frederic Crozat:
> Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 11:59 +0300, Eero Tamminen a écrit :
> > So, there shouldn't be any need for any Maemo specific specs, these
> > things are documented in upstream projects.  There should still be
> > a tutorial how to do these things though.
>
> Tutorial is already available in Maemo 3.x SDK documentation, but we
> aren't sure it is working as expected, because of mediaplayer
> "blackbox".
>
> > If there are still some problems after codec has been
> > correctly registered to gstreamer and mime-type database:
> > - gstreamer not recognizing the file type correctly
>
> I don't think it is the case, using :
>
> gst-launcher filesrc location=test.ogg  ! decodebin ! audioconvert !
> dsppcmsink does work, so gstreamer is handling the file correctly.
>
We are spinning in circles. We have been there too many times already!

> > - mediaplayer not playing the file
>
> I think the problem is here, unfortunately :(
>
> Developper documentation is a little too scarce about media player,
> unfortunately.> . 

Unfortunately. Am I wrong when I identify the missing source of the media 
player as part of the problem? Or has it been released yet?

>
> > - file manager or browser not launching the media player properly
>
> This part works fine, mediaplayer is launched properly
>
> > Please file bugs.

Like Bug 176, opened 2005-10-30? 
https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176

>
> Before filling bugs against maemo, I think it would be better to only
> have "one" ogg support package available for 770 / n800 (and soon n810)
> to make sure efforts are not duplicated.

Yepp! Convergence instead of parallel efforts! Time to puzzle should be over 
in order to mature this platform.
>
> As a sidenote, from my distribution persective (I'm GNOME maintainer at
> Mandriva), Maemo community "fragmentation" about packages and duplicated
> work is killing me :( There seems to be a lot of energy around there but
> often doing the thing or not using infrastructure available thanks to
> Garage (for instance, some people are only using garage as a way to ship
> files and don't store their source code in SVN).
I have been wondering that as well many times. How come that this community 
is 'fragmented'? What is causing it?

Regards Krischan

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Frederic Crozat]

Le vendredi 19 octobre 2007 à 11:59 +0300, Eero Tamminen a écrit :

> So, there shouldn't be any need for any Maemo specific specs, these
> things are documented in upstream projects.  There should still be
> a tutorial how to do these things though.

Tutorial is already available in Maemo 3.x SDK documentation, but we
aren't sure it is working as expected, because of mediaplayer
"blackbox".

> If there are still some problems after codec has been
> correctly registered to gstreamer and mime-type database:
> - gstreamer not recognizing the file type correctly

I don't think it is the case, using :

gst-launcher filesrc location=test.ogg  ! decodebin ! audioconvert !
dsppcmsink does work, so gstreamer is handling the file correctly.

> - mediaplayer not playing the file
I think the problem is here, unfortunately :(

Developper documentation is a little too scarce about media player,
unfortunately..

> - file manager or browser not launching the media player properly

This part works fine, mediaplayer is launched properly

> Please file bugs.

Before filling bugs against maemo, I think it would be better to only
have "one" ogg support package available for 770 / n800 (and soon n810)
to make sure efforts are not duplicated.

As a sidenote, from my distribution persective (I'm GNOME maintainer at
Mandriva), Maemo community "fragmentation" about packages and duplicated
work is killing me :( There seems to be a lot of energy around there but
often doing the thing or not using infrastructure available thanks to
Garage (for instance, some people are only using garage as a way to ship
files and don't store their source code in SVN).

-- 
Frederic Crozat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Eero Tamminen]

Hi,

ext Krischan Keitsch wrote:
> Am Freitag, 19. Oktober 2007 schrieben Sie:
>> ext Krischan Keitsch wrote:
>>> Am Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 schrieb Collin R. Mulliner:
>>>> OGG is only a nerd feature and also has other problems, so Nokia (and
>>>> other companies) just don't care. Maybe somebody can make a plugin (also
>>>> this won't utilize the DSP).
>>> I don't agree with ogg = nerd feature. Linux as an open and free platform
>>> is way beyond nerd-state. Ogg is also about openness and freedom. They
>>> share the same philosophy.
>>>
>>> The OS of our internet tablets is based upon Linux, isn't it? So why is
>>> there no support for ogg?
>>>
>>> By the way: every time a new stylish personal media player from china is
>>> shown on engadget you will find more and more players with support for
>>> flac and ogg vorbis. Hmm, something is changing?
>> I think whether Nokia is going to support ogg or not is somewhat
>> besides the point.  What should be supported is:
>> - Addition of support for new codecs to the system
>>(works, but the repository situation could be better)
>> - All applications immediately able to use the new codecs
>> - User opening a file (in browser or filemanager) encoded with the new
>>codec should automatically open it in the correct player
>> - Documenting how to achieve this
>>
>> This way Nokia doesn't need to be a bottleneck in getting new codecs
>> for the users; community, commercial companies etc could then do it.
>
> I agree with you. The "missing ogg support" can also be seen as a synonym for 
> missing codex in general, missing specs, information and commitment. Can we 
> interpret your post that things will change? And when?

Sorry, this is not really my area and I don't know the situation in
Chinook.  Quim?

I think everything should work at the gstreamer level, but at least
earlier the higher levels hard-coded some things because:
- Maemo has actually two multimedia frameworks below osso-media-server,
   Helix and Gstreamer working over Gnomevfs
- Whether something could be played depends from whether they are
   available as a local file or a remote stream, not just the used
   codec

So, there shouldn't be any need for any Maemo specific specs, these
things are documented in upstream projects.  There should still be
a tutorial how to do these things though.

If there are still some problems after codec has been
correctly registered to gstreamer and mime-type database:
- gstreamer not recognizing the file type correctly
- mediaplayer not playing the file
- file manager or browser not launching the media player properly
Please file bugs.


> Will the community soon have the necessary information, sdk, tools etc. to 
> fully take advantage of the capabilities of the internet tablet hardware 
> (especially the dsp)? 

DSP is another, unrelated issue to the above one.  Quim?


> What you wrote sounds promissing! There are highly skilled and talented 
> people 
> around here - I think they are just waiting for the facts to release the 
> potential of the internet tablets! Give them what they need!


- Eero
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Krischan Keitsch]

Am Freitag, 19. Oktober 2007 schrieb Kalle Valo:
> "ext Marius Gedminas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > You know what the killer feature is?  Automatic wifi connection.  I
> > absolutely hate it when I have to tap the silly little globe, then tap
> > the connect menu item, then wait a few boring seconds for my wifi network
> > to appear, then press ok.  Only then I can ssh into my n800 and use
> > apt-get.
> >
> > I could keep my tablet online all the time, of course, but then the
> > battery wouldn't last till the end of the day.
>
> It should stay online for days, not hours. Something is wrong with
> your setup. I would guess that the AP is somehow broken regards to
> WLAN Power Save Mode. Can you try with some other AP to see if it
> helps? Also make sure that N800 isn't transmitting anything extra, for
> example transmitting a packet every second would kill the battery
> quite quickly.
>
> Alternatively you could use a wireless sniffer to take a dump of WLAN
> level traffic and send it to me. I could take a look and see if
> there's something strange.
>
> It's a shame that there are so many broken APs on the market. I see
> lots of them when dealing with bug reports :( I guess WLAN Power Save
> Mode was really rare earlier, but fortunately nowadays it's getting
> more popular and AP manufactures have noticed the problem.

Hi Kalle,
I had a similar problem with my Siemens sx541 wlan dsl router using dhcp. The 
n800 keeps sending dhcp requests. That caused up to 20 - 30% cpu usage and 
drains the battery really fast. 

(See Bug 1627 & Bug 1646)

Switching to a fixed ip solved that problem for me. 

Regards 
Krischan

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Krischan Keitsch]

Am Freitag, 19. Oktober 2007 schrieben Sie:
> Hi,
>
> ext Krischan Keitsch wrote:
> > Am Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 schrieb Collin R. Mulliner:
> >> OGG is only a nerd feature and also has other problems, so Nokia (and
> >> other companies) just don't care. Maybe somebody can make a plugin (also
> >> this won't utilize the DSP).
> >
> > I don't agree with ogg = nerd feature. Linux as an open and free platform
> > is way beyond nerd-state. Ogg is also about openness and freedom. They
> > share the same philosophy.
> >
> > The OS of our internet tablets is based upon Linux, isn't it? So why is
> > there no support for ogg?
> >
> > By the way: every time a new stylish personal media player from china is
> > shown on engadget you will find more and more players with support for
> > flac and ogg vorbis. Hmm, something is changing?
>
> I think whether Nokia is going to support ogg or not is somewhat
> besides the point.  What should be supported is:
> - Addition of support for new codecs to the system
>(works, but the repository situation could be better)
> - All applications immediately able to use the new codecs
> - User opening a file (in browser or filemanager) encoded with the new
>codec should automatically open it in the correct player
> - Documenting how to achieve this
>
> This way Nokia doesn't need to be a bottleneck in getting new codecs
> for the users; community, commercial companies etc could then do it.
>
>
>   - Eero

Hi Eero,

I agree with you. The "missing ogg support" can also be seen as a synonym for 
missing codex in general, missing specs, information and commitment. Can we 
interpret your post that things will change? And when?

Will the community soon have the necessary information, sdk, tools etc. to 
fully take advantage of the capabilities of the internet tablet hardware 
(especially the dsp)? 

What you wrote sounds promissing! There are highly skilled and talented people 
around here - I think they are just waiting for the facts to release the 
potential of the internet tablets! Give them what they need!

Regards Krischan
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Kalle Valo]

"ext Marius Gedminas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> You know what the killer feature is?  Automatic wifi connection.  I
> absolutely hate it when I have to tap the silly little globe, then tap
> the connect menu item, then wait a few boring seconds for my wifi network
> to appear, then press ok.  Only then I can ssh into my n800 and use
> apt-get.
>
> I could keep my tablet online all the time, of course, but then the
> battery wouldn't last till the end of the day.

It should stay online for days, not hours. Something is wrong with
your setup. I would guess that the AP is somehow broken regards to
WLAN Power Save Mode. Can you try with some other AP to see if it
helps? Also make sure that N800 isn't transmitting anything extra, for
example transmitting a packet every second would kill the battery
quite quickly.

Alternatively you could use a wireless sniffer to take a dump of WLAN
level traffic and send it to me. I could take a look and see if
there's something strange.

It's a shame that there are so many broken APs on the market. I see
lots of them when dealing with bug reports :( I guess WLAN Power Save
Mode was really rare earlier, but fortunately nowadays it's getting
more popular and AP manufactures have noticed the problem.

-- 
Kalle Valo
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: N810 is here (ogg support)

[Eero Tamminen]

Hi,

ext Krischan Keitsch wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 17. Oktober 2007 schrieb Collin R. Mulliner:
>> OGG is only a nerd feature and also has other problems, so Nokia (and
>> other companies) just don't care. Maybe somebody can make a plugin (also
>> this won't utilize the DSP).
>>
> I don't agree with ogg = nerd feature. Linux as an open and free platform is 
> way beyond nerd-state. Ogg is also about openness and freedom. They share the 
> same philosophy.
> 
> The OS of our internet tablets is based upon Linux, isn't it? So why is there 
> no support for ogg?
> 
> By the way: every time a new stylish personal media player from china is 
> shown 
> on engadget you will find more and more players with support for flac and ogg 
> vorbis. Hmm, something is changing?

I think whether Nokia is going to support ogg or not is somewhat
besides the point.  What should be supported is:
- Addition of support for new codecs to the system
   (works, but the repository situation could be better)
- All applications immediately able to use the new codecs
- User opening a file (in browser or filemanager) encoded with the new
   codec should automatically open it in the correct player
- Documenting how to achieve this

This way Nokia doesn't need to be a bottleneck in getting new codecs
for the users; community, commercial companies etc could then do it.


- Eero

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[James Sparenberg]

On Thursday 18 October 2007 20:01:36 Steve Greenland wrote:
> According to James Sparenberg  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > a.  open AM
> > b.  get asked if I want to update package lists.
> > c.  click to browse installable packages.
> > d.  wait for update packages (why it just did an update.)
>
> Actually, the "update" here is updating the soon-to-be-displayed list
> of uninstalled packages; it's not re-doing the download of the Packages
> files.
>
> Steve

I fully understand what it's doing  but not why it's doing it.  Since the 
act of doing the first update is the equivalent of "apt-get update"  However 
if you use Adept/Synaptic/dpkg etc the act of the update accumulates all of 
this information in one act.  

James
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support and the repository question

[Krischan Keitsch]

Am Donnerstag, 18. Oktober 2007 schrieb Steve Greenland:
> According to Krischan Keitsch  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > to a) "Were are all the apps?"
> > One thing that we are missing is a 'distribution' (the debian or ubuntu
> > way) with primary repositories  and additional repos. etc.
>
> Actually, I think we *have* that repo: repository.maemo.org. The problem
> is that there is no obvious, straightforward way for Jill Random to get
> her packages into the repo. Is this documented anywhere? A quick browse
> of maemo.org didn't find anything.
>
> But as I noted, there seems to be some plans to improve this situation.
>
> And, admittedly, it's not as easy as just letting anonymous people
> upload. Any package can trash the entire system, via the install hooks.
> Debian deals with this by making it so painful to become an official
> developer that the asshats won't make the effort.
>
> OTOH, the current situation encourages the addition of random repos to
> the source list, so basically is no different than letting random people
> upload. Given that the official nokia repos are still screwed up w.r.t.
> package signing (see https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2067), we're
> training the users to ignore/avoid any security stuff anyway.
>
> Steve

At the moment we a experiencing two diffrent philosophies how to handle 3rd 
party apps on mobil devices:
a) no rd party apps what so ever: apple / ipod touch
b) complete freedom to install every 3rd party app we want: encouraged by 
Nokia / Internet tablets


Usually when you have two extrems the optimum is in between. Being allowed to 
install no apps on my own is (for me at least) absolutely not acceptable. On 
the other hand the situation on the repository landscape of the internet 
tablets is not satisfying either.

The optimum may be between the two - meaning we need some kind of a quality 
management for the community efforts. To approve that just verified and 
checked 
apps are in the official  and universe repositories. So that Jill Random and 
ourselves can benefit from rock solid high quality apps. What do you think?

Regards Krischan
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: N810 is here -- whitout ogg support

[Krischan Keitsch]

Am Donnerstag, 18. Oktober 2007 schrieb Steve Greenland:
> According to John Rudd  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > And, no, it's not about "open and free".  Since the developers in
> > question are Nokia (since the comment was directed at the release of the
> > N810 itself, and not a request for more 3rd party development), it's
> > about how much effort the developers need to put into supporting
> > something vs. the amount of return they get from supporting it.
>
> Actually, it is about being open and free. Nokia promotes the tablet
> as an open platform, and is using huge amounts of free software as the
> basis for its product. To ignore ogg-vorbis support, which *is* an
> important feature for many of us (and far more valuable, to *me*, than
> WMA and AAC support), and is pretty much the only free-as-in-freedom
> codec, is a bit of a slap in the face.
>
> Some of us do have political agendas, such as promoting the use of free
> software. That Nokia uses our software (as is their right, according to
> our licenses), but then promotes non-free codecs/software, is a bit sad.
>
> Regards,
> Steve

A product such as internet tablets needs users (many users, not just oss 
enthusiasts) in order to get some traction on the market and to evolve. 
Therefore it makes sense to include mainstream media codex for non-developer 
costumers. 

On the other hand the internet tablets are not just commercial products but 
also a commitment by Nokia to support open source development ( see upstream 
projects such as hildon etc.). The business unit at Nokia taking care of the 
internet tablets have realiced that it reduces costs on the long run to 
participate on the open source development - taking and giving.

So, we have a strong commitment from Nokia towards open source and nice 
internet tablets aiming at average users as well as linux power users and 
developers. The average user might not care as much about ogg support or not 
(keeping in mind that the number of ogg content on the web increases) but we 
linux power users do. And we have been asking for ogg (dsp based) support 
since the early 770 OS2005 days! 

I think the comunity would accept a clear "no, we will not support ogg 
because ..." by Nokia when they would release desperately needed information 
about the dsp and the source of the proprietary media player. Then the 
comunity could put the peaces together. 

It is always refreshing to take a look at the openmoko project, their mailing 
lists and wiki. So far there is 'just' a developer version of that open phone 
available, but the community is extremely creative and enthusiastic. They know 
where they are at - maybe it is because it is all about openness?

Regards Krischan

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Steve Greenland]

According to Austin Che  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve Greenland):
> 
> > ...but MPD is not a good solution for an N800 standalone player *at this
> > time*. There are two big issues.
> 
> I just have to say I've been using mpd exclusively as my media
> player for over a month and have been very happy with it (much
> more than my attempts with other media players). I mainly like it
> because it's unintrusive and I want a scriptable interface.

Well, different needs/desires.

> 
> > 1. CPU usage. MPD doesn't use the tremor vorbis library, and thus
> > playing an ogg sucks down about 75% of the CPU. In comparison, with
> > Kagu, the osso-media-server process uses about 25% of the CPU. (Kagu
> > sucks another 10-15% if the screen is active.)
> 
> For me, playing mp3s, mpd always hovers around 10% cpu. I don't
> have oggs to play to compare. 

Ogg Vorbis is a lot more expensive to decode, because the standard
libvorbis uses floating point, while (I *believe*) the standard MP3
decoders are fixed point. Or maybe its just that MP3 is cheaper to
decode anyway.

> > 2. As a straight port of the Debian MPD package, the mpd server restarts
> > automatically on reboot *and resumes playing the oggs*. This is not
> > good, because it slows down the rest of the reboot process quite a bit,
> > and, since there isn't any free CPU, it sounds *dreadful*.
> 
> I personally changed the priority of mpd's start. I moved it to
> S99mpd in /etc/rc2.d so it doesn't start until after everything is
> loaded.

This should be the default, I think.

> And if it was playing before you rebooted, don't you want it to
> continue?

No. My N800 gets restarted *a lot* more often than my home server. I
realize (assume, anyway) you're just porting the standard Debian packages,
but it is a different environment.

Anyway, good news in your other post about using the tremor lib. I'll
give it a shot.

Steve
-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Steve Greenland]

According to James Sparenberg  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>   a.  open AM
>   b.  get asked if I want to update package lists.
>   c.  click to browse installable packages.
>   d.  wait for update packages (why it just did an update.)

Actually, the "update" here is updating the soon-to-be-displayed list
of uninstalled packages; it's not re-doing the download of the Packages
files.

Steve
-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Michael Wiktowy]

On 10/18/07, Tilman Vogel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi!
>
> First of all: Thanks for your review! You wouldn't believe how few
> feedback you get these days: The mogg d/l counters show that quite some
> people try it, but we get no feedback. So you're tempted to believe
> everybody is happy. So thanks again!
>
> Steve Greenland schrieb:
> > Current state of ogg support, 17-October-2007.
> >
> > Firstly, for some unknown reason there are *two* different ogg support
> > packages. One, from Tuomas Kulve, I'll call 'ogg-support'. The second,
> > by Marko Nykanen and Tilman Vogel (according to the garage page,but see
> > below), is 'mogg'.
>
> Yes, this is unfortunate. I think "mogg" existed first and I was
> surprised about the second attempt, but on the other hand at that time
> none of the mogg people had an IT OS 2007 scratchbox set up, so nobody
> can be blamed. I (silently - my fault) had hoped somebody (maybe Tuomas
> Kulve) would contact us to join on mogg some day and support it on the N800.
>
> Anyway, I did some clean-up work on the gstreamer tremor plugin. Some of
> these changes make it work with the maemo audio player and kagu. The
> changes are documented and can easily be diffed between the upstream
> tremor plugin and the mogg version.
>
> I mentioned this to Tuomas Kulve and he offered me to join his project.
> I have not responded yet and the reason is that he tries to maintain the
> whole gstreamer-plugins-bad package. I didn't want to do this as I was
> just interested in the tremor codec and because the package is quite
> edgy, I decided to separate the tremor plugin into its own package. I am
> really not keen on going back to the "bad" package. Actually, as soon as
> tremor get's "kind of" maintained again, it should leave the "bad"
> package anyway. Plus, I don't have an N800, so, blame me, I am a bit
> egoistic about investing more work in this, but vice versa, I'd be happy
> to have N800 developers (Tuomas?) on the mogg project!
>
> > Mogg is available from r.m.o extras. Yea. The packages file shows the
> > maintainer for 'mogg' to be Jussi Kukkonen. Libraries are pulled from
> > r.m.o when available, no obvious dupes.
>
> Ok, I'll update that soon. Jussi Kukkonen recently left the project out
> of time constraints.
>
> > Onto the players.
> >
> > Built in media player: doesn't work. Mogg claims that it should (and
> > maybe it does in the IT2006 version), but it doesn't even find the files
> > on the card. (It does find MP3s.)
>
> Ok, I am interested in this because it works on IT OS 2006. Do you have
> any hints, which files might be missing/wrong?
>
> /usr/share/mime/packages/ogg-vorbis.xml
>
> should register "*.ogg" as "audio/x-vorbis" and it seems on IT OS 2006,
> the audio player shows all files of type "audio/*".
>
> > So, long story short (too late!) I'm using kagu with the mogg libraries.
>
> Yes, me too.
>
> Thanks again!

This is good discussion. I hope that all the splintered ogg
implementations come together. I have not gotten any of them to work
satisfactorily on the built in media player and only maginally on some
of the third-party players. The ogg/tremour codec should be pushed
down the the infrastructure level ... it is a bit crazy to carry
around multiple versions of it so that oggs can be played in different
players ... especially on an embedded device.

I would seem that everyone (including Nokia) is waiting for someone
else to pull everything together. Maybe all implementors can get
focused around the appropriate bugzilla (
https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=176 ) and hash out a common
gstreamer codec so that everyone can benefit from it and benefit from
any future fixes. Now is the time since everything (including all the
media players) will need to be rebuilt for Chinook.

/Mike
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[James Sparenberg]

On Thursday 18 October 2007 11:30:34 Marius Gedminas wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 04:48:35PM +, Steve Greenland wrote:

>
> My other pet peeve is that this encourages binary-only debs which you
> can't then fix/port to a different SDK version.
>
> I sincerely hope Maemo Extras rejects sourceless packages.
>
> Marius Gedminas

Marius, 

   I would hope that they reject binary packages period, in that like every 
distro I've worked with you submit a src (rpm deb tgz etc) and the distro 
builds from that file so that at least some assurance can be made that it's 
build from the correct environment.  

   You then have 3 levels of packages.  1. Nokia produced and vetted.  2.  
Packages created by "Authorized" developers (ones know and trusted by Nokia) 
aka Extra's then contrib.  Various users/packagers/developers not as well 
know can contribute src packages here for a contribs section.  This last 
section of course, having a much lower guarantee of functional quality. 

James
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[James Sparenberg]

On Thursday 18 October 2007 10:16:51 Marius Vollmer wrote:
> "ext Steve Greenland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > According to Marius Vollmer  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >> Can you give more information about how the AM is slower than apt-get?
> >> Do you need to perform too many clicks in the UI to get your task
> >> done, or do you have to wait longer until it has downloaded and
> >> installed the packages?

The frustrations I have with AM are.

1.  the "update packages" event.  Every action requires that a full on rescan 
of the system be done.  Each one taking between 30 to 60 seconds to complete.

2.  Searches that return me to the wrong screen.  If for example I want to 
install pidgin.  I search for pidgin and rightfully get a number of packages 
(many I need to install some I don't want period) I have to do the following.

a.  open AM
b.  get asked if I want to update package lists.
c.  click to browse installable packages.
d.  wait for update packages (why it just did an update.)
c.  search for pidgin.
d.  chose to install 1st package.
e.  click yes I want to install
d.  Click yes I know it doesn't come from Nokia
e.  Click OK for the install
f.  package gets installed
g.  click for placement of icon in menu
h.  wait for update packages.
i.  search for pidgin.
j.  etc etc etc etc until all 6 or 7 packages are installed.

Now from a command line apt-cache search {app name) apt-get [list of packages] 
then open CP and move icon.  Equally as easy on my desktop is open  
Adept-Manager (kubuntu) search for app, click check boxes, OK dependencies if 
any and done.  In truth Adept Manager and synaptic are often easier than 
command line (even though I prefer command line.)

James
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Austin Che]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve Greenland):

> ...but MPD is not a good solution for an N800 standalone player *at this
> time*. There are two big issues.
>
> 1. CPU usage. MPD doesn't use the tremor vorbis library, and thus
> playing an ogg sucks down about 75% of the CPU. In comparison, with
> Kagu, the osso-media-server process uses about 25% of the CPU. (Kagu
> sucks another 10-15% if the screen is active.)

Ok, it was simple. I downloaded libvorbisidec1 from
http://ogg.garage.maemo.org/ and recompiled mpd --with-tremor. You
can try it out. It's the version called 0.13-tremor
https://garage.maemo.org/frs/?group_id=308
I haven't tested it...
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Austin Che]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Steve Greenland):

> ...but MPD is not a good solution for an N800 standalone player *at this
> time*. There are two big issues.

I just have to say I've been using mpd exclusively as my media
player for over a month and have been very happy with it (much
more than my attempts with other media players). I mainly like it
because it's unintrusive and I want a scriptable interface.

> 1. CPU usage. MPD doesn't use the tremor vorbis library, and thus
> playing an ogg sucks down about 75% of the CPU. In comparison, with
> Kagu, the osso-media-server process uses about 25% of the CPU. (Kagu
> sucks another 10-15% if the screen is active.)

For me, playing mp3s, mpd always hovers around 10% cpu. I don't
have oggs to play to compare. I can easily play songs while doing
other things. And there's no noticeable difference with battery
life compared to when I was using canola. 

I don't know enough about all the different ogg libraries but a
quick search seems to indicate that mpd supports the tremor
library. So it should be pretty trivial to get that working.

> 2. As a straight port of the Debian MPD package, the mpd server restarts
> automatically on reboot *and resumes playing the oggs*. This is not
> good, because it slows down the rest of the reboot process quite a bit,
> and, since there isn't any free CPU, it sounds *dreadful*.

I personally changed the priority of mpd's start. I moved it to
S99mpd in /etc/rc2.d so it doesn't start until after everything is
loaded. And if it was playing before you rebooted, don't you want
it to continue?
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Steve Greenland]

According to Tilman Vogel  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Throwing caution to the
> > wind, I recklessly and irresponsibly violated the "DO NOT EDIT!"
> > instruction and added "audio/x-vorbis" by hand. However, the media
> > player still doesn't find the oggs. Bugger. 
> 
> Did you reboot in between?

Yep.

> Actually, I currently don't really have an idea why this is not working
> on the N800...

Oh well. Maybe someone smarter (or better informed) than me will be able
to figure it out.

Steve

-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Frédéric Crozat]

Le jeudi 18 octobre 2007 à 22:27 +0200, Tilman Vogel a écrit :
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Hi again!
> 
> Steve Greenland schrieb:
> > After the re-install, I've got /usr/share/mime/audio/x-vorbis.xml, which is:
> > 
> > 
> > http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/shared-mime-info"; 
> > type="audio/x-vorbis">
> > 
> >   OGG audio
> > 
> > 
> > The 'globs' file does have "audio/x-vorbis:*.ogg". However, the
> > categories file, in category "audio", has "application/ogg" but NOT
> > "audio/x-vorbis". Maybe that's the problem? 
> 
> Maybe, but at least it's the same on IT OS 2006.

And it is still broken, since the schema file shipped with the package
specify application/ogg for media player.

It would be wise to make sure audio/x-vorbis is a child of
application/ogg mimetype.

> > Throwing caution to the
> > wind, I recklessly and irresponsibly violated the "DO NOT EDIT!"
> > instruction and added "audio/x-vorbis" by hand. However, the media
> > player still doesn't find the oggs. Bugger. 
> 
> Did you reboot in between? Maybe the media server needs to be restarted
> for that to take effect. Could be that on 2007 the media server uses
> categories?

Media player uses gconf configuration to know which gstreamer pipeline
should be used to play a file, according to its mimetype. Since schema
and mime.xml file are using mimetype, media player can't associate the
correct pipeline to recognize and play ogg file.

However, I tried to add the missing gconf info (and reboot) without any
success.

It would be nice if a Nokia developer with access to Media player code 
could check what it wrong, compared to what is explained at 
http://maemo.org/development/documentation/how-tos/3-x/getting_started_with_multimedia.html


-- 
Frédéric Crozat 
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Tilman Vogel]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi again!

Steve Greenland schrieb:
> After the re-install, I've got /usr/share/mime/audio/x-vorbis.xml, which is:
> 
> 
> http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/shared-mime-info"; 
> type="audio/x-vorbis">
> 
>   OGG audio
> 
> 
> The 'globs' file does have "audio/x-vorbis:*.ogg". However, the
> categories file, in category "audio", has "application/ogg" but NOT
> "audio/x-vorbis". Maybe that's the problem? 

Maybe, but at least it's the same on IT OS 2006.

> Throwing caution to the
> wind, I recklessly and irresponsibly violated the "DO NOT EDIT!"
> instruction and added "audio/x-vorbis" by hand. However, the media
> player still doesn't find the oggs. Bugger. 

Did you reboot in between? Maybe the media server needs to be restarted
for that to take effect. Could be that on 2007 the media server uses
categories?

> There's also a "magic" file,
> but that's in some sort of binary format that even I don't want to mess
> with.

Kind of. Its some magic strings to recognize file type from the content.
It's also coming from /usr/share/mime/packages/ogg-vorbis.xml.

Actually, I currently don't really have an idea why this is not working
on the N800...

Sorry,

Tilman
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with SUSE - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHF8Ga9ZPu6Yae8lkRAjpMAJwLmourdi9BnF14xTgOSwiNuWRHOgCfeF5A
C2jA1kCuCkqOK3SD/8GWqnI=
=Pi7p
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Marius Gedminas]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 08:02:47PM +, Steve Greenland wrote:
> According to Marius Gedminas  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 08:16:51PM +0300, Marius Vollmer wrote:
> > > I am happy that the AM seems to be good enough that some hackers
> > > actually consider using it instead of apt-get 
> > 
> > You know what the killer feature is?  Automatic wifi connection.  I
> > absolutely hate it when I have to tap the silly little globe, then tap
> > the connect menu item, then wait a few boring seconds for my wifi network
> > to appear, then press ok.  Only then I can ssh into my n800 and use
> > apt-get.
> 
> I don't have to do this, and it seems to last several days in standby.

Yes, it's my e-book habit that leaves no battery charge for always-on
wifi.

Also, I used my N800 as a car radio replacement until recently, which
didn't help battery life.

Perhaps it is time to give always-on wifi another try.

Marius Gedminas
-- 
IBM motto: "If you can't read our assembly language, you must be
borderline dyslexic, and we don't want you to mess with it anyway"
-- Linus Torvalds


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Steve Greenland]

According to Marius Gedminas  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> -=-=-=-=-=-
> -=-=-=-=-=-
> 
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 08:16:51PM +0300, Marius Vollmer wrote:
> > I am happy that the AM seems to be good enough that some hackers
> > actually consider using it instead of apt-get 
> 
> You know what the killer feature is?  Automatic wifi connection.  I
> absolutely hate it when I have to tap the silly little globe, then tap
> the connect menu item, then wait a few boring seconds for my wifi network
> to appear, then press ok.  Only then I can ssh into my n800 and use
> apt-get.

I don't have to do this, and it seems to last several days in standby.

Steve


-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Kemal Hadimli]

On 10/18/07, Marius Gedminas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> schedule).  Also, I have this paranoid habit of looking for a charger as
> soon as the battery meter drops from 4 bars to 3.

yep. the battery meter is not accurate/linear. it takes ages to drop
from 4 bars to 3. then it takes less and less time to drop levels,
until it reaches one bar. at one bar it takes relatively long go
"battery low" too.

> At some point I decided the extra convenience of having an always-on
> tablet wasn't worth the occasional inconvenience of having to recharge
> sooner.

i keep mine always connected, no problems. of course i don't keep it
always connected via bluetooth when i'm on the street, otherwise my
phone battery dies just too quickly. though finding a thick nokia
charger on the go is easy, walk into almost any store and ask for
permission to use their nokia charger. plug your phone in, and roam
around in the shop for a few minutes. you'll get a few bars on the
phone. that's not possible with the thin charger jack yet. (and it
takes longer to charge the 5L battery, possibly due to high capacity
compared to cellphones)


-- 
Kemal
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Steve Greenland]

According to Steve Greenland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Onto the players.

Austin Che wrote and pointed out that I'd missed the MPD (music player
daemon) port. This intrigued, because I use and quite like MPD on my
home system. For those unfamiliar with it, it splits the player into
the server process that actually does the playing and file management,
and an independent client to send instructions. There are many clients
available, from the standard command line 'mpc' to GUI and web-based
clients. The client doesn't have to be on the same machine, although of
course for a standalone N800 they'd need to be.

So I installed mpd and a bunch of libraries from garage.mpd.org. (Insert
usual rant about packages not in repo). There's also other dependencies
that are in the repo, but you still have to deal with them by hand
because dpkg doesn't know to call apt-get. (Installing via the AM may
make this easier.)

One notable dependency is adduser, which brings in perl5-base. All this
so we can create an 'mpd' user on the install. While this makes sense in
a standard desktop or server situation, and is normal Debian practice,
on the single user N800 system this could just as easily run as 'user',
avoiding a pretty big dependency.

I modified "/etc/mpd.conf" to point to /media/mmc1/oggs, and ran
"/usr/bin/mpd --create-database" to scan the files, and "/etc/init.d/mpd
restart" to restart the daemon.

For clients, I tried both mmpc and glurp (which is nominally ITS2006,
but seems to work on ITS2007 fine.)

MMPC has a simpler interface. Glurp has a more complete interface, but
the tiny buttons pretty much require a stylus for fat-fingered people
like me. MMPC doesn't seem to have a way to add an entire album to the
playlist at once. Glurp browses the library by filesystem layout, rather
than using the tags to sort by artist/album. Glurp allows you to request
a library update (aka rescan); MMPC doesn't. Glurp struggled with my
home servers ~4000 entry playlist; MMPC did better. Try'em both; I'll probably
stay with MMPC for remote controlling my home system...

...but MPD is not a good solution for an N800 standalone player *at this
time*. There are two big issues.

1. CPU usage. MPD doesn't use the tremor vorbis library, and thus
playing an ogg sucks down about 75% of the CPU. In comparison, with
Kagu, the osso-media-server process uses about 25% of the CPU. (Kagu
sucks another 10-15% if the screen is active.)

2. As a straight port of the Debian MPD package, the mpd server restarts
automatically on reboot *and resumes playing the oggs*. This is not
good, because it slows down the rest of the reboot process quite a bit,
and, since there isn't any free CPU, it sounds *dreadful*.

Both of those are fixable.

Regards,
Steve

-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Marius Gedminas]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 09:15:39PM +0200, Jac Kersing wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Oct 2007, Marius Gedminas wrote:
> 
> >I could keep my tablet online all the time, of course, but then the
> >battery wouldn't last till the end of the day.
> 
> Have you tried?

Yes.

> My N800 is always connected and the battery lasts a couple 
> of days. Only when I start hitting the CPU it starts to drain faster. 
> Using it 1-2 hours a day reading e-books (fbreader rocks!) it lasts well 
> over 3 days.

I probably use it for 3-6 hours a day reading e-books.  It depends on
the day (weekday/weekend) and the book (sometimes I just can't...
stop... reading..., which does results in things happening to my sleep
schedule).  Also, I have this paranoid habit of looking for a charger as
soon as the battery meter drops from 4 bars to 3.

At some point I decided the extra convenience of having an always-on
tablet wasn't worth the occasional inconvenience of having to recharge
sooner.

Marius Gedminas
-- 
Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film.


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Jac Kersing]

On Thu, 18 Oct 2007, Marius Gedminas wrote:

> I could keep my tablet online all the time, of course, but then the
> battery wouldn't last till the end of the day.

Have you tried? My N800 is always connected and the battery lasts a couple 
of days. Only when I start hitting the CPU it starts to drain faster. 
Using it 1-2 hours a day reading e-books (fbreader rocks!) it lasts well 
over 3 days.

Best regards,

Jac

---
  Jac KersingTechnical Consultant   The-Box Development
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] CISSP   RHCEhttp://www.the-box.com
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Marius Gedminas]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 04:48:35PM +, Steve Greenland wrote:
> According to Krischan Keitsch  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > to a) "Were are all the apps?"
> > One thing that we are missing is a 'distribution' (the debian or ubuntu 
> > way) 
> > with primary repositories  and additional repos. etc.
> 
> Actually, I think we *have* that repo: repository.maemo.org. The problem
> is that there is no obvious, straightforward way for Jill Random to get
> her packages into the repo. Is this documented anywhere? A quick browse
> of maemo.org didn't find anything.

http://maemo.org/community/application-catalog/extras_repository.html

I still haven't found the time to do that and instead keep the few
packages I need in my ad-hoc repository :(

> But as I noted, there seems to be some plans to improve this situation.
> 
> And, admittedly, it's not as easy as just letting anonymous people
> upload. Any package can trash the entire system, via the install hooks.
> Debian deals with this by making it so painful to become an official
> developer that the asshats won't make the effort.

I think Ubuntu's MOTU model is worth looking at:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU

> OTOH, the current situation encourages the addition of random repos to
> the source list, so basically is no different than letting random people
> upload.

My other pet peeve is that this encourages binary-only debs which you
can't then fix/port to a different SDK version.

I sincerely hope Maemo Extras rejects sourceless packages.

Marius Gedminas
-- 
Did you know that 7/5 people don't know how to use fractions?


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Steve Greenland]

According to Marius Vollmer  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> "ext Steve Greenland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Mostly it's the clicking/browsing issue.
> 
> Ok, understood.  This seems to be the general "I am much more
> productive at the command line than with a WIMP interface" situation.
> I can very much symphatize with that, but it mostly means that the
> Application Manager is not for you.
> 
> It is perfectly fine and supported to use apt-get on the device.
> Having apt-get on the device is not just some artifact, it's the
> intended power-user interface that makes it acceptable for us to keep
> the Application Manager pretty basic.

That's a completely reasonable design decision, as is your point about
the magic "fix things" button.

 > [AM showing newly-installed dependencies]
> 
> That info was always there (since IT OS 2006).

Well, then I was blind. Not the first time...

> >  [Auto-dependency tracking]
> 
> The Application Manager should actually do this (since IT OS 2006).
> [*snip*]
> (In other words, it is conservative when removing things. Not like
> aptitude that goes and deletes half your OS if you are not careful..
> :)

Aww, cmon, this is mostly fixed in aptitude these days. Besides, it made
life exciting!

> Check /var/lib/osso-application-installer/autoinst to see which
> packages are eligible for automatic removal. 

Mine's empty, but I probably haven't installed anything to trigger it
via the AM since the re-flash.

> I want to let libapt-pkg do the book keeping in the next release, of
> course.

Excellent news.

Thanks,
steve


-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Marius Gedminas]

On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 08:16:51PM +0300, Marius Vollmer wrote:
> I am happy that the AM seems to be good enough that some hackers
> actually consider using it instead of apt-get 

You know what the killer feature is?  Automatic wifi connection.  I
absolutely hate it when I have to tap the silly little globe, then tap
the connect menu item, then wait a few boring seconds for my wifi network
to appear, then press ok.  Only then I can ssh into my n800 and use
apt-get.

I could keep my tablet online all the time, of course, but then the
battery wouldn't last till the end of the day.

My personal pet peeve with the app manager is all those confirmation
dialogs.

Marius Gedminas
-- 
Remember the... the... uhh.


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Marius Vollmer]

"ext Steve Greenland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> According to Marius Vollmer  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
>> Can you give more information about how the AM is slower than apt-get?
>> Do you need to perform too many clicks in the UI to get your task
>> done, or do you have to wait longer until it has downloaded and
>> installed the packages?
>
> Mostly it's the clicking/browsing issue.

Ok, understood.  This seems to be the general "I am much more
productive at the command line than with a WIMP interface" situation.
I can very much symphatize with that, but it mostly means that the
Application Manager is not for you.

It is perfectly fine and supported to use apt-get on the device.
Having apt-get on the device is not just some artifact, it's the
intended power-user interface that makes it acceptable for us to keep
the Application Manager pretty basic.

I am happy that the AM seems to be good enough that some hackers
actually consider using it instead of apt-get or Synaptic, but UI-wise
it only really is intended to manage smallish bundles of packages that
make up applications.  Activating the "show all packages" setting in
red-pill mode is pretty much useless with its UI, for example.

(My standard settings are: don't show all packages, don't show
dependencies, but show magic:sys.  That keeps the lists short and I
still can update the hidden packages.)

> Also, the waiting for the lists to update in the UI.

Yes, there is potential for optimization here.

> I was going to complain that the AM didn't show what new dependencies
> were going to be installed by a particular package, but I just looked,
> and there *is* a tab with that info. Is that a new with the recent
> firmware upgrade, or was I just blind before?

That info was always there (since IT OS 2006).

> It would be nice if the AM would allow you to re-configure (in the
> dpkg sense) a partially installed app, without requiring an
> uninstall/reinstall. Probably an appropriate label would be "try to
> fix broken packages".

Yeah, except we don't want to have a magic "Try to fix things" button
in the UI.  We are planning to silently reconfigure packages
automatically to unbreak them.  This will get more important when we
support updating system packages, which you obviously can't
remove+install to unbreak them.

> Oh, and while you're reading: it would be *really nice* to have
> dependency tracking, like aptitude. This means that when you install
> foo, and it requires bar and baz, and you later remove foo, the tool
> remembers that bar and bas were automatically installed only to
> support foo, and removes those as well (assuming no other package
> also needs bar or baz, of course). The latest apt suite has this
> built in, so maybe it wouldn't be too hard?

The Application Manager should actually do this (since IT OS 2006).
However, it keeps its own information about packages that have been
installed to satisfy dependencies (since our version of apt doesn't
and I was not brave enough to fix libapt-pkg itself).  Thus, it will
only automatically remove a package that it has installed itself.  (In
other words, it is conservative when removing things.  Not like
aptitude that goes and deletes half your OS if you are not
careful.. :)

There is no explicit "autoremove" action.  Rather, invisible packages
are automatically removed together with the visible packages that
depend on them.

Check /var/lib/osso-application-installer/autoinst to see which
packages are eligible for automatic removal.  I want to let libapt-pkg
do the book keeping in the next release, of course.
___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Steve Greenland]

According to Kemal Hadimli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> On 10/18/07, Steve Greenland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > debug1: confirm x11
> > X11 connection rejected because of wrong authentication.
> 
> Interesting, it works here with openssh, and DISPLAY is ":0.0" during
> that. My guess is dropbear does things differently.

Hmmm. Dropbear is trying to run /usr/bin/X11/xauth, which doesn't exist.
Maybe openssh has the required functionality built in? 

> 
> Pygame needs to read the screen depth (we're saving cache image
> according to the screen format, otherwise Kagu startup gets slower) so
> it won't work. I tried, though.

Ah. Well, I'm probably the only one trying to do this. And it looks like
it's more of a problem with dropbear/xauth anyway.

Hmm, that might be a problem, though -- pygame is going to pick up the
screen depth of my desktop, not the N800.

Thanks,
Steve



-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Steve Greenland]

According to Krischan Keitsch  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> to a) "Were are all the apps?"
> One thing that we are missing is a 'distribution' (the debian or ubuntu way) 
> with primary repositories  and additional repos. etc.

Actually, I think we *have* that repo: repository.maemo.org. The problem
is that there is no obvious, straightforward way for Jill Random to get
her packages into the repo. Is this documented anywhere? A quick browse
of maemo.org didn't find anything.

But as I noted, there seems to be some plans to improve this situation.

And, admittedly, it's not as easy as just letting anonymous people
upload. Any package can trash the entire system, via the install hooks.
Debian deals with this by making it so painful to become an official
developer that the asshats won't make the effort.

OTOH, the current situation encourages the addition of random repos to
the source list, so basically is no different than letting random people
upload. Given that the official nokia repos are still screwed up w.r.t.
package signing (see https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2067), we're
training the users to ignore/avoid any security stuff anyway.

Steve

-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Steve Greenland]

According to Tilman Vogel  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Onto the players.
> > 
> > Built in media player: doesn't work. Mogg claims that it should (and
> > maybe it does in the IT2006 version), but it doesn't even find the files
> > on the card. (It does find MP3s.)
> 
> Ok, I am interested in this because it works on IT OS 2006. Do you have
> any hints, which files might be missing/wrong?
> 
> /usr/share/mime/packages/ogg-vorbis.xml
> 
> should register "*.ogg" as "audio/x-vorbis" and it seems on IT OS 2006,
> the audio player shows all files of type "audio/*".

So I removed kagu, and then mogg, and got this:

# apt-get remove  mogg
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
The following packages will be REMOVED:
  mogg
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 1 to remove and 1 not upgraded.
Need to get 0B of archives.
After unpacking 81.9kB disk space will be freed.
Do you want to continue [Y/n]? y
(Reading database ... 15634 files and directories currently installed.)
Removing mogg ...
Cache file created successfully.
gconftool-2: I've been haxored to use xml::/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.defaults as the 
config source.
Attached schema `(null)' to key 
`/apps/osso/osso_media_server/audio/application_ogg'
Uninstalled schema `/schemas/apps/osso/osso_media_server/audio/application_ogg' 
from locale `C'
***
* Updating MIME database in /usr/share/mime...
* Warning: Unknown media type in type 'sketch/png'
***

Then I reinstalled mogg, and got this:

Unpacking mogg (from .../apt/archives/mogg_0.2_all.deb) ...
Setting up mogg (0.2) ...
gconftool-2: I've been haxored to use xml::/etc/gconf/gconf.xml.defaults as the 
config source.
Attached schema `/schemas/apps/osso/osso_media_server/audio/application_ogg' to 
key `/apps/osso/osso_media_server/audio/application_ogg'
Installed schema `/schemas/apps/osso/osso_media_server/audio/application_ogg' 
for locale `C'
Cache file created successfully.
***
* Updating MIME database in /usr/share/mime...
* Warning: Unknown media type in type 'sketch/png'
***

After the re-install, I've got /usr/share/mime/audio/x-vorbis.xml, which is:


http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/shared-mime-info"; 
type="audio/x-vorbis">

  OGG audio


The 'globs' file does have "audio/x-vorbis:*.ogg". However, the
categories file, in category "audio", has "application/ogg" but NOT
"audio/x-vorbis". Maybe that's the problem? Throwing caution to the
wind, I recklessly and irresponsibly violated the "DO NOT EDIT!"
instruction and added "audio/x-vorbis" by hand. However, the media
player still doesn't find the oggs. Bugger. There's also a "magic" file,
but that's in some sort of binary format that even I don't want to mess
with.

Regards,
Steve

-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users

Re: Steve's Ranty Review #1: N800 ogg support

[Steve Greenland]

According to Marius Vollmer  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Can you give more information about how the AM is slower than apt-get?
> Do you need to perform too many clicks in the UI to get your task
> done, or do you have to wait longer until it has downloaded and
> installed the packages?

Mostly it's the clicking/browsing issue. Also, the waiting for the lists
to update in the UI. 

Part of the problem is that completely random sectioning, which makes it
pretty much infeasible to browse except in the "all" section (yes, I've
got red-pill enabled). With that list, scrolling is awkward. Just being
able to filter out packages beginning with "lib" would be useful. The
sectioning problem goes back to not have standard repos, real project
policy, etc.

I doubt the actual *actions* are slower (modulo UI list updates), but
it's a heck of a lot faster for me to type "apt-get install foo" than
browse in the AM. Also, given the many repos I've got listed, I'm a
heavy user of "apt-cache policy" to figure out just where packages are
coming from.

I was going to complain that the AM didn't show what new dependencies
were going to be installed by a particular package, but I just looked,
and there *is* a tab with that info. Is that a new with the recent
firmware upgrade, or was I just blind before?

It would be nice if the AM would allow you to re-configure (in
the dpkg sense) a partially installed app, without requiring an
uninstall/reinstall. Probably an appropriate label would be "try to fix
broken packages".

But mostly it's the fact that I'm extremely comfortable with the
apt-get/apt-cache/dpkg command lines. I don't use synaptic, either.

Oh, and while you're reading: it would be *really nice* to have
dependency tracking, like aptitude. This means that when you install
foo, and it requires bar and baz, and you later remove foo, the tool
remembers that bar and bas were automatically installed only to support
foo, and removes those as well (assuming no other package also needs bar
or baz, of course). The latest apt suite has this built in, so maybe it
wouldn't be too hard?

> Also, when you say that operations often fail, do you mean that the AM
> crashes or leaves your system in a inconsistent state, or do you mean
> that the AM doesn't find solutions to satisfy all dependencies whereas
> apt-get is able to find a solution and proceed?

Mostly I mean that updates and installs fail, downloads hang, etc. But
now that I think about it (rather than shooting my mouth off randomly),
this probably isn't your problem. I only use the AM when I'm away from
home, and I'm going to guess that it's an issue of the sites crappy
wifi, since I also have problems browsing there.

> We will finally get a "Update All" button in Diablo.

Yea! But should be "Upgrade All", for consistency with apt terminology.
:-)

> (In all likelihood it will just run all the updates one after the
> other instead of all at once as apt-get upgrade would do.)

That's fine, and makes perfect sense for environment.

thanks for reading my rant,
Steve

-- 
Steve Greenland
The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the
world.   -- seen on the net

___
maemo-users mailing list
maemo-users@maemo.org
https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users