Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
Am Mittwoch, den 16.07.2008, 15:51 -0400 schrieb Ryan Abel: But I'd rather see the guided submission form get some traction moving forward (somebody else will have to come up with the URL, I'm in retard-mode at the moment and can't find it). something like https://bugs.maemo.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=applicationsformat=guided ? Karsten has, apparently, been working on this, hopefully we'll see it implemented soon. ;) It's much more helpful overall than a simple template. andre -- Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster) ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
ext Kalle Valo wrote: FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE: (always, less than 1/10, 5/10, 9/10) Remove the word always from the template. The reason being that usually the reporter is able to reproduce the bug two times and concludes that it happens always. But in reality that might well not be the case, and marking it as 2/2 would be a lot more informative for the developer. Then what about something like this? FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE: (happened X times out of Y trials) Ciao, Alberto -- http://www.mardy.it -- Geek in un lingua international! ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 15:45 -0400, ext Ryan Abel wrote: Well, there is a template (not exactly the same, but very similar) being used. It looks like: Ok, I did some sampling of existing bugs but maybe it has been introduced recently (?) But I'd rather see the guided submission form get some traction moving forward (somebody else will have to come up with the URL, I'm in retard-mode at the moment and can't find it). Karsten has, apparently, been working on this, hopefully we'll see it implemented soon. ;) It's much more helpful overall than a simple template. :-/ Maybe I'm just getting old, but i'm not sensitive to the lures of forms. Free text mode seems to be the most simple and flexible approach. I don't know if you are based in the US. I am not and usually I get very pissed off at web sites where one has to introduce some data that makes perfectly sense for US customers and for them only. Because the person designing the form cannot possibly address all the cases that useres will want to represent. So i cherish free form text. I hope that if the bug submission is going to be transformed into a form mode, no field will be mandatory and there will still be the option of leaving free form comments. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Maemo Software - Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 10:28 AM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 15:45 -0400, ext Ryan Abel wrote: Well, there is a template (not exactly the same, but very similar) being used. It looks like: Ok, I did some sampling of existing bugs but maybe it has been introduced recently (?) Don't think so. I did submitted some bugs over the last year and, as far as I remember, it was always there. About the always, I too suggest it should be there. For example bug #3304 can be always reproduced. No matter what software you've installed or if it a fresh install. So i cherish free form text. Me too. I hope that if the bug submission is going to be transformed into a form mode, no field will be mandatory and there will still be the option of leaving free form comments. I agree with you. -- anidel ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
ext Alberto Mardegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ext Kalle Valo wrote: FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE: (always, less than 1/10, 5/10, 9/10) Remove the word always from the template. The reason being that usually the reporter is able to reproduce the bug two times and concludes that it happens always. But in reality that might well not be the case, and marking it as 2/2 would be a lot more informative for the developer. Then what about something like this? FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE: (happened X times out of Y trials) Sounds good to me. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
ext Aniello Del Sorbo [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: About the always, I too suggest it should be there. My point was that the meaning of the word always is not precise. It would be a lot better if the bug report says always, tested two times. That way I can know that the bug might need to be tested quite a few times before seeing it. For example bug #3304 can be always reproduced. No matter what software you've installed or if it a fresh install. Of course there are bugs which have probability of 100%, I guess most of the bugs are like that. But there are also tricky bugs which have, for example, a probability of 10% and that's why it's important to know how many times the reporter has tested it. This is the reason why I prefer always to use M/N notation. But this is a minor issue, we shouldn't waste too much time on this. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Kalle Valo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ext Aniello Del Sorbo [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: About the always, I too suggest it should be there. My point was that the meaning of the word always is not precise. It would be a lot better if the bug report says always, tested two times. That way I can know that the bug might need to be tested quite a few times before seeing it. For example bug #3304 can be always reproduced. No matter what software you've installed or if it a fresh install. Of course there are bugs which have probability of 100%, I guess most of the bugs are like that. But there are also tricky bugs which have, for example, a probability of 10% and that's why it's important to know how many times the reporter has tested it. This is the reason why I prefer always to use M/N notation. But this is a minor issue, we shouldn't waste too much time on this. Yup. It's clear what you mean. I support the notation then. -- anidel ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 4:28 AM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 15:45 -0400, ext Ryan Abel wrote: Well, there is a template (not exactly the same, but very similar) being used. It looks like: Ok, I did some sampling of existing bugs but maybe it has been introduced recently (?) It's been in there since 2007 at least, you could probably poke timeless if you really want an exact date. But I'd rather see the guided submission form get some traction moving forward (somebody else will have to come up with the URL, I'm in retard-mode at the moment and can't find it). Karsten has, apparently, been working on this, hopefully we'll see it implemented soon. ;) It's much more helpful overall than a simple template. :-/ Maybe I'm just getting old, but i'm not sensitive to the lures of forms. Free text mode seems to be the most simple and flexible approach. I think you're probably misunderstanding the purpose and execution of the guided form (I _really_ wish I could remember/find the URL). Basically, it's more or less like the current submission form, except with lots of helpful annotations beside each field to help people figure out what sort of information to put in there. The free-form comment field is still available. I don't know if you are based in the US. I am not and usually I get very pissed off at web sites where one has to introduce some data that makes perfectly sense for US customers and for them only. Because the person designing the form cannot possibly address all the cases that useres will want to represent. So i cherish free form text. I hope that if the bug submission is going to be transformed into a form mode, no field will be mandatory and there will still be the option of leaving free form comments. Well, people with canconfirm and editbugs wont see it, they'll still see the existing form. As somebody who triages a lot of bugs, and deals daily with users who don't understand the current submission form, the guided form would definitely make my job easier (which also makes things easier for developers, since I'm a lazy person ;)). ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
Just taking a moment here to plug maemo-community, as discussions like there really belong over there. So, go subscribe! :D https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-community ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
Quim Gil [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ext Kalle Valo wrote: That's a very good summary how a bug owner should behave. Maybe you should write an essay about that? :) Instead, he and others are writing https://wiki.maemo.org/Bugs:Stock_answers I guess the idea is to make it easy to copypaste the answers to the bug reports? If so, that's a very good idea. You (plural) might want to give a hand there and give a rest to your mailboxes. :) Now that I'm categorised as a bad boy, hehe, I have to improve my public image and do my share on the WLAN part ;) -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 22:07 +0300, ext Kalle Valo wrote: Now that I'm categorised as a bad boy, hehe, I have to improve my public image and do my share on the WLAN part ;) Since I have no public image left to defend, instead I'll take the chance to point to something that is part of our internal bugzilla and seems to be missing from the public one. When one is creating a new bug, he is automatically presented with the following template. -- SOFTWARE VERSION: (Control Panel Device About product) HARDWARE VERSION: PRECONDITIONS: (devices/models involved, environment, settings, external servers/URLs if applicable, media files used, network connection: phone/WLAN) STEPS LEADING TO PROBLEM: (explain in detail what you do (e.g. tap on 'OK') and what you see/hear (message 'Connection failed' appears and a beep can be heard) 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. EXPECTED OUTCOME: ACTUAL OUTCOME: FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE: (always, less than 1/10, 5/10, 9/10) -- I don't know if anybody remembers about it but that's something I insisted that it would become part of the bug filing process, after being bothered constantly by lousy bug reports written on the same lines of the email that started all this thread. This was happening 3 to 4 years ago. After some random sampling of bugs present in the external bugzilla, I don't see such template being used in the bug creation. Why? -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Maemo Software - Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 22:07 +0300, ext Kalle Valo wrote: Now that I'm categorised as a bad boy, hehe, I have to improve my public image and do my share on the WLAN part ;) Since I have no public image left to defend :) After some random sampling of bugs present in the external bugzilla, I don't see such template being used in the bug creation. Why? Yeah, that would be a good addition. One minor point before any copies it: FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE: (always, less than 1/10, 5/10, 9/10) Remove the word always from the template. The reason being that usually the reporter is able to reproduce the bug two times and concludes that it happens always. But in reality that might well not be the case, and marking it as 2/2 would be a lot more informative for the developer. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
On Jul 15, 2008, at 3:26 PM, Igor Stoppa wrote: After some random sampling of bugs present in the external bugzilla, I don't see such template being used in the bug creation. Why? Well, there is a template (not exactly the same, but very similar) being used. It looks like: SOFTWARE VERSION: (Control Panel General About product) STEPS TO REPRODUCE THE PROBLEM: EXPECTED OUTCOME: ACTUAL OUTCOME: REPRODUCIBILITY: (always/sometimes/once) EXTRA SOFTWARE INSTALLED: OTHER COMMENTS: But I'd rather see the guided submission form get some traction moving forward (somebody else will have to come up with the URL, I'm in retard-mode at the moment and can't find it). Karsten has, apparently, been working on this, hopefully we'll see it implemented soon. ;) It's much more helpful overall than a simple template.___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
RE: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
It was there when I posted a bug with OS2008 yesterday and I used it. The template is a very good one - thanks, Igor. Nick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Igor Stoppa Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 13:26 To: ext Kalle Valo Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org Subject: Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently) On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 22:07 +0300, ext Kalle Valo wrote: Now that I'm categorised as a bad boy, hehe, I have to improve my public image and do my share on the WLAN part ;) Since I have no public image left to defend, instead I'll take the chance to point to something that is part of our internal bugzilla and seems to be missing from the public one. When one is creating a new bug, he is automatically presented with the following template. -- SOFTWARE VERSION: (Control Panel Device About product) HARDWARE VERSION: PRECONDITIONS: (devices/models involved, environment, settings, external servers/URLs if applicable, media files used, network connection: phone/WLAN) STEPS LEADING TO PROBLEM: (explain in detail what you do (e.g. tap on 'OK') and what you see/hear (message 'Connection failed' appears and a beep can be heard) 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. EXPECTED OUTCOME: ACTUAL OUTCOME: FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE: (always, less than 1/10, 5/10, 9/10) -- I don't know if anybody remembers about it but that's something I insisted that it would become part of the bug filing process, after being bothered constantly by lousy bug reports written on the same lines of the email that started all this thread. This was happening 3 to 4 years ago. After some random sampling of bugs present in the external bugzilla, I don't see such template being used in the bug creation. Why? -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Maemo Software - Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
RE: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
I agree with that. Nick. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kalle Valo Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2008 13:43 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org Subject: Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently) Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, 2008-07-15 at 22:07 +0300, ext Kalle Valo wrote: Now that I'm categorised as a bad boy, hehe, I have to improve my public image and do my share on the WLAN part ;) Since I have no public image left to defend :) After some random sampling of bugs present in the external bugzilla, I don't see such template being used in the bug creation. Why? Yeah, that would be a good addition. One minor point before any copies it: FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE: (always, less than 1/10, 5/10, 9/10) Remove the word always from the template. The reason being that usually the reporter is able to reproduce the bug two times and concludes that it happens always. But in reality that might well not be the case, and marking it as 2/2 would be a lot more informative for the developer. -- Kalle Valo ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
Re: Good stock answers (was Re: N810 Now Resets Very Frequently)
On Tuesday 15 July 2008 20:43:03 Kalle Valo wrote: Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yeah, that would be a good addition. One minor point before any copies it: FREQUENCY OF OCCURRENCE: (always, less than 1/10, 5/10, 9/10) Remove the word always from the template. The reason being that usually the reporter is able to reproduce the bug two times and concludes that it happens always. But in reality that might well not be the case, and marking it as 2/2 would be a lot more informative for the developer. That would just be silly! Always has to be in the template. If the reporter said 9/10 that would imply, to me, that they have seen it work at least once and, hence, that the bug as reported is intermittent. That would be much more likely to lead me astray than having someone say always when it isn't, in fact, always. Also, for very many bugs, it is clear that the reported behaviour is the way it always works (for example, a bug complaining about a missing field in a form). Always is a useful and important suggestion for that field! Maybe for your components intermittent bugs are particularly common but for many other components most bugs are perfectly reproducible. Graham ___ maemo-users mailing list maemo-users@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
