Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[James Knott]

Aniello Del Sorbo wrote:
> Il 10-10-2007 6:04, "Quim Gil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ha scritto:
>
>   
>> On Tue, 2007-10-09 at 07:46 -0700, ext John Rudd wrote:
>> 
>>> On problem with your theory.
>>>
>>> I never performed steps 5b nor 6, yet I have never seen the "Advanced" menu.
>>>   
>> In theory (and we are talking now about computer theory)  ;)  all the
>> N800s out there are just same after a clean reflash. If you break this
>> theory, congratulations.  ;)
>>
>> The only point I wanted to stress is that last week release included
>> only a Kernel fix and no other improvements (i.e. in the browser).
>> 
>
> Well you know.. They (CS teachers) teach us that computers are deterministic
> automata.
> In theory...
> In practice.. They (the computers) proved us many times they are not. ;-)
>
>   
In theory, practice follows theory.  In practice, it doesn't.  ;-)


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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[Aniello Del Sorbo]

Il 10-10-2007 6:04, "Quim Gil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ha scritto:

> 
> On Tue, 2007-10-09 at 07:46 -0700, ext John Rudd wrote:
>> On problem with your theory.
>> 
>> I never performed steps 5b nor 6, yet I have never seen the "Advanced" menu.
> 
> In theory (and we are talking now about computer theory)  ;)  all the
> N800s out there are just same after a clean reflash. If you break this
> theory, congratulations.  ;)
> 
> The only point I wanted to stress is that last week release included
> only a Kernel fix and no other improvements (i.e. in the browser).

Well you know.. They (CS teachers) teach us that computers are deterministic
automata.
In theory...
In practice.. They (the computers) proved us many times they are not. ;-)

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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[Quim Gil]

On Tue, 2007-10-09 at 07:46 -0700, ext John Rudd wrote:
> On problem with your theory.
> 
> I never performed steps 5b nor 6, yet I have never seen the "Advanced" menu.

In theory (and we are talking now about computer theory)  ;)  all the
N800s out there are just same after a clean reflash. If you break this
theory, congratulations.  ;)

The only point I wanted to stress is that last week release included
only a Kernel fix and no other improvements (i.e. in the browser).

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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[James Sparenberg]

On Tuesday 09 October 2007 01:32:01 Aniello Del Sorbo wrote:
> Il 5-10-2007 19:25, "Steve Yelvington" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ha scritto:
> > I thought the browser tab thing was an urban legend, but it turns out
> > they're there, and probably agnostic to the HTML engine.
> >
> > Last item in the dropdown menu is "Advanced,"where you choose the
> > browser engine, and among its (new?) entries is "View" with options for
> > tab, box and window. However, in tab mode the tabs are placed on the
> > left side of the screen, eating valuable layout space.
> >
> > There also is a "policy" choice that lets you control Javascript for
> > Google separately from the global settings.
>
> OOPS I've replied only to Steve Yelvington, here's it again:
>
> I confirm this, but I think that this menu was not intented to be
> "released" to the users. I believe it's an internal/testing menu entry
> that, somehow, appears when you flash the new firmware (probably if, in the
> process, you also restore the settings/data from a previous backup).
>
> In fact, the Tabs are, as you also noticed, very poorly implemented. Same
> for the remaining "views".

I agree on your analysis  however even though they weren't pretty they were so 
freaking useful it wasn't funny.  I rue the day I lost mine for sure.

My mission it seems to to figure out how to get them back ;)

James 

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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[Neil MacLeod]

Aniello Del Sorbo wrote:
> A tabbed browser would probably make many people happy, but I don't really
> see the advantage over the current implementation (i.e. Having a new window
> open for a new link). Perhaps one could see a use for the box view to
> compare two rendered sites in one shot (might be useful for web sites
> makers.)
> 

I like how Firefox (on desktop) allows me to "background load" a page by 
opening a link in a new tab which doesn't automatically take focus.

Being able to open a new page in the background (in a tab or not) on Micro-B 
would make me very happy - some pages take quite a while to load, and it would 
be nice if I could continue reading the current web page while a linked page is 
loaded in the background. Currently, the new window opens and steals focus, the 
device almost grinds to a halt as it renders/composites the new page and I have 
to wait before I can return to the original page and continue reading (most 
times though I can return before the new page has finished loading, but it's an 
annoying struggle and often takes several seconds or longer).

I'd also like to see tabs on Micro-B (or the EAL) in future, I thought tabs 
worked just fine in Minimo and believe tab support should be added, but left as 
an option for the user.

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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[John Rudd]

John Rudd wrote:
> Quim Gil wrote:
>> Alright, we found the answer.
>>
>> On Tue, 2007-10-09 at 11:08 +0200, ext Luca Olivetti wrote:
>>> En/na Aniello Del Sorbo ha escrit:
>>>
 I confirm this, but I think that this menu was not intented to be 
 "released"
 to the users.
>>> The fact is, there *is* something more than the updated kernel.
>> No. Last week release has only a kernel patch to the MMC driver, as said
>> repeated times.
>>
>> What happens is:
>>
>> 1. User has 4.2007.26-8 aka Flash9 browser plugin.
>>
>> 2. User installs Mozilla based browser under development.
>>
>> 3. User makes backup of everything.
>>
>> 4a User reflash with 4.2007.38-2 aka SDHC fix 
>>
>> 4b (Surely reflashing with 4.2007.26-8 makes no difference, it's just
>> that apparently nobody did and noticed before)
>>
>> 5a If user goes to browser sees the regular Opera browser
>>
>> 5b If user brings back previous preferences via backup then the Advanced
>> option (previously hidden) appears.
>>
>> 6. Installing again the Mozilla based engine again restores normality,
>> no Advanced options are visible.
>>
>>
>> And what about these Advanced UI options? We were experimenting with
>> them by the time we made the 4.2007.26-8 release. We don't have plans to
>> offer them in future releases.
>>
> 
> 
> On problem with your theory.
> 
> I never performed steps 5b nor 6, yet I have never seen the "Advanced" menu.

Someone else pointed out that I had misread 5b.  I read the last line as 
"disappears".  By not performing 5b, the theory predicts that I never 
saw the advanced menu.  So my experience conforms to the theory.


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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[John Rudd]

Quim Gil wrote:
> Alright, we found the answer.
> 
> On Tue, 2007-10-09 at 11:08 +0200, ext Luca Olivetti wrote:
>> En/na Aniello Del Sorbo ha escrit:
>>
>>> I confirm this, but I think that this menu was not intented to be "released"
>>> to the users.
>> The fact is, there *is* something more than the updated kernel.
> 
> No. Last week release has only a kernel patch to the MMC driver, as said
> repeated times.
> 
> What happens is:
> 
> 1. User has 4.2007.26-8 aka Flash9 browser plugin.
> 
> 2. User installs Mozilla based browser under development.
> 
> 3. User makes backup of everything.
> 
> 4a User reflash with 4.2007.38-2 aka SDHC fix 
> 
> 4b (Surely reflashing with 4.2007.26-8 makes no difference, it's just
> that apparently nobody did and noticed before)
> 
> 5a If user goes to browser sees the regular Opera browser
> 
> 5b If user brings back previous preferences via backup then the Advanced
> option (previously hidden) appears.
> 
> 6. Installing again the Mozilla based engine again restores normality,
> no Advanced options are visible.
> 
> 
> And what about these Advanced UI options? We were experimenting with
> them by the time we made the 4.2007.26-8 release. We don't have plans to
> offer them in future releases.
> 


On problem with your theory.

I never performed steps 5b nor 6, yet I have never seen the "Advanced" menu.

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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[Tim Ashman]

On 10/09/2007 00:08, Luca Olivetti wrote:
> En/na Quim Gil ha escrit:
> >>> Yes, I lost the option after installing microb, and according to
> >>> internettsalettalk forums I'm not the only one. Now, if is there a way
> >>> to get it back I'd be glad to try ;-)
> >
> > Sorry, I miss these threads. URL?
>
> http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=79116#post79116
>
> > The fact is that last week release includes just a patch in the kernel
> > for the MMC driver, nothing else.
>
> Well, it's not only hearsay, I saw the "advanced" menu with my own eyes,
> but I lost it as soon as I managed to install microb (in fact I noticed
> the advanced menu only because, due to the broken maemo extras
> repository, I couldn't install microb right away after reflashing).
>
> Bye

I too saw the advanced menu on the browser until installing the microb, then 
when I wanted the new options back and uninstalled microb the advanced menu 
was still gone.

On the advanced menu.   

Logging, Tab, Box, Win view, Fine cookie control..  Someone from nokia please 
help me and others get this menu back.

tim
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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[Aniello Del Sorbo]

Again I've replied only to the sender, here my mail again:

On 9-10-2007 13:03, "Quim Gil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Alright, we found the answer.
...

Yeah that was what I was thinking about too.
 
> And what about these Advanced UI options? We were experimenting with
> them by the time we made the 4.2007.26-8 release. We don't have plans to
> offer them in future releases.

A tabbed browser would probably make many people happy, but I don't really
see the advantage over the current implementation (i.e. Having a new window
open for a new link). Perhaps one could see a use for the box view to
compare two rendered sites in one shot (might be useful for web sites
makers.)

But limiting the Java Script on a per window basis would be very a nice
addition. We could have Gmail javascript fully working while limiting
javascript execution on other windows.

-- 
Anidel


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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[Quim Gil]

Alright, we found the answer.

On Tue, 2007-10-09 at 11:08 +0200, ext Luca Olivetti wrote:
> En/na Aniello Del Sorbo ha escrit:
> 
> > I confirm this, but I think that this menu was not intented to be "released"
> > to the users.
> 
> The fact is, there *is* something more than the updated kernel.

No. Last week release has only a kernel patch to the MMC driver, as said
repeated times.

What happens is:

1. User has 4.2007.26-8 aka Flash9 browser plugin.

2. User installs Mozilla based browser under development.

3. User makes backup of everything.

4a User reflash with 4.2007.38-2 aka SDHC fix 

4b (Surely reflashing with 4.2007.26-8 makes no difference, it's just
that apparently nobody did and noticed before)

5a If user goes to browser sees the regular Opera browser

5b If user brings back previous preferences via backup then the Advanced
option (previously hidden) appears.

6. Installing again the Mozilla based engine again restores normality,
no Advanced options are visible.


And what about these Advanced UI options? We were experimenting with
them by the time we made the 4.2007.26-8 release. We don't have plans to
offer them in future releases.

-- 
Quim Gil - http://maemo.org

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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[Aniello Del Sorbo]

Il 9-10-2007 11:08, "Luca Olivetti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ha scritto:

> En/na Aniello Del Sorbo ha escrit:
> 
>> I confirm this, but I think that this menu was not intented to be "released"
>> to the users.
> 
> The fact is, there *is* something more than the updated kernel.

Well, I think it was there, it's just that this update reveals it ?
Some weird combination related to restoring a backup ?

>From the diff made on the ITT forum looks like nothing related to UI was
changed (if I remind well).

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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[Luca Olivetti]

En/na Aniello Del Sorbo ha escrit:

> I confirm this, but I think that this menu was not intented to be "released"
> to the users.

The fact is, there *is* something more than the updated kernel.


Bye
-- 
Luca

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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[Aniello Del Sorbo]

Il 5-10-2007 19:25, "Steve Yelvington" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ha scritto:

> I thought the browser tab thing was an urban legend, but it turns out
> they're there, and probably agnostic to the HTML engine.
> 
> Last item in the dropdown menu is "Advanced,"where you choose the
> browser engine, and among its (new?) entries is "View" with options for
> tab, box and window. However, in tab mode the tabs are placed on the
> left side of the screen, eating valuable layout space.
> 
> There also is a "policy" choice that lets you control Javascript for
> Google separately from the global settings.
> 

OOPS I've replied only to Steve Yelvington, here's it again:

I confirm this, but I think that this menu was not intented to be "released"
to the users. I believe it's an internal/testing menu entry that, somehow,
appears when you flash the new firmware (probably if, in the process, you
also restore the settings/data from a previous backup).

In fact, the Tabs are, as you also noticed, very poorly implemented. Same
for the remaining "views".

-- 
Anidel


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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[Aniello Del Sorbo]

Il 9-10-2007 9:08, "Luca Olivetti" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ha scritto:

> En/na Quim Gil ha escrit:
 Yes, I lost the option after installing microb, and according to
 internettsalettalk forums I'm not the only one. Now, if is there a way
 to get it back I'd be glad to try ;-)
>> 
>> Sorry, I miss these threads. URL?
> 
> http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=79116#post79116
> 
>> The fact is that last week release includes just a patch in the kernel
>> for the MMC driver, nothing else.
> 
> Well, it's not only hearsay, I saw the "advanced" menu with my own eyes,
> but I lost it as soon as I managed to install microb (in fact I noticed
> the advanced menu only because, due to the broken maemo extras
> repository, I couldn't install microb right away after reflashing).
> 
I was one of the first to notice the Advanced menu (and I still have it)
when I flashed the N800 with the latest firmware.
It disappeared as soon as one installs the MicroB browser.
There are, however, reproducible steps to get it back (at least they worked
for me).
What I did before re-flashing the new firmware:

1) backup of everything with the internal Backup/Restore utility
2) flash
3) as soon as it noticed the backup, I've restored it.

That's it. When it completed the first boot I had the "Advanced" menu entry
in my browser.

You can have more info in the ITT forum at the link that Luca already
provided to you.

-- 
Anidel




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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[Luca Olivetti]

En/na Quim Gil ha escrit:
>>> Yes, I lost the option after installing microb, and according to
>>> internettsalettalk forums I'm not the only one. Now, if is there a way
>>> to get it back I'd be glad to try ;-)
> 
> Sorry, I miss these threads. URL?

http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=79116#post79116

> The fact is that last week release includes just a patch in the kernel
> for the MMC driver, nothing else.

Well, it's not only hearsay, I saw the "advanced" menu with my own eyes, 
but I lost it as soon as I managed to install microb (in fact I noticed 
the advanced menu only because, due to the broken maemo extras 
repository, I couldn't install microb right away after reflashing).

Bye
-- 
Luca

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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[Quim Gil]

> > Yes, I lost the option after installing microb, and according to
> > internettsalettalk forums I'm not the only one. Now, if is there a way
> > to get it back I'd be glad to try ;-)

Sorry, I miss these threads. URL?

The fact is that last week release includes just a patch in the kernel
for the MMC driver, nothing else.

I really don't know how you get this "Advanced" dialog at all. I just
reflashed my N800 with the last update and I didn't see any Advanced
item in the dropdown menu. Nor I saw anything after installing the
Mozilla based browser (btw, the browser installation went just fine).


> Yeah I ran into an "update" that actually regressed me.   Now working on the 
> process of deletion to unfix the unwanted help.

"Regressed"? How?

-- 
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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[James Sparenberg]

On Saturday 06 October 2007 06:46:08 Luca Olivetti wrote:
> El Sat, 6 Oct 2007 01:04:19 -0700
>
> James Sparenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:
> > On Friday 05 October 2007 12:35:08 Luca Olivetti wrote:
> > > El Fri, 05 Oct 2007 13:25:54 -0400
> > >
> > > Steve Yelvington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:
> > > > I thought the browser tab thing was an urban legend, but it turns
> > > > out they're there, and probably agnostic to the HTML engine.
> > >
> > > Nope, the advanced menu option disappears as soon as you install
> > > microb.
> >
> > Luca interesting ... didn't on mine.
>
> Yes, I lost the option after installing microb, and according to
> internettsalettalk forums I'm not the only one. Now, if is there a way
> to get it back I'd be glad to try ;-)
>
> Bye


Yeah I ran into an "update" that actually regressed me.   Now working on the 
process of deletion to unfix the unwanted help.

James
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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[John Rudd]

Luca Olivetti wrote:
> El Sat, 6 Oct 2007 01:04:19 -0700
> James Sparenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:
> 
>> On Friday 05 October 2007 12:35:08 Luca Olivetti wrote:
>>> El Fri, 05 Oct 2007 13:25:54 -0400
>>>
>>> Steve Yelvington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:
 I thought the browser tab thing was an urban legend, but it turns
 out they're there, and probably agnostic to the HTML engine.
>>> Nope, the advanced menu option disappears as soon as you install
>>> microb.
>> Luca interesting ... didn't on mine.
> 
> Yes, I lost the option after installing microb, and according to
> internettsalettalk forums I'm not the only one. Now, if is there a way
> to get it back I'd be glad to try ;-)
> 

I don't have an advanced menu on mine, and I haven't installed microb 
since before 2 flashes ago.  And, I didn't restore my settings from 
before ... so I really do have a "clean" image to work from.

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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[Luca Olivetti]

El Sat, 6 Oct 2007 01:04:19 -0700
James Sparenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:

> On Friday 05 October 2007 12:35:08 Luca Olivetti wrote:
> > El Fri, 05 Oct 2007 13:25:54 -0400
> >
> > Steve Yelvington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:
> > > I thought the browser tab thing was an urban legend, but it turns
> > > out they're there, and probably agnostic to the HTML engine.
> >
> > Nope, the advanced menu option disappears as soon as you install
> > microb.
> 
> Luca interesting ... didn't on mine.

Yes, I lost the option after installing microb, and according to
internettsalettalk forums I'm not the only one. Now, if is there a way
to get it back I'd be glad to try ;-)

Bye
-- 
Luca
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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[James Sparenberg]

On Friday 05 October 2007 12:35:08 Luca Olivetti wrote:
> El Fri, 05 Oct 2007 13:25:54 -0400
>
> Steve Yelvington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:
> > I thought the browser tab thing was an urban legend, but it turns out
> > they're there, and probably agnostic to the HTML engine.
>
> Nope, the advanced menu option disappears as soon as you install microb.

Luca interesting ... didn't on mine.  Also intresting is the greyed out engine 
choice for Webcore.

James
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[James Sparenberg]

On Friday 05 October 2007 12:04:16 Frédéric Crozat wrote:
> Le vendredi 05 octobre 2007 à 18:56 +0300, Marius Vollmer a écrit :
> > "ext James Sparenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > Marius, In reply to the space constraint and upgrade done to the
> > > entire OS.  This was first solved in URPMI for Mandrake around 8.1
> > > (Now called Mandriva) and AFAIK it has been ported into the
> > > dist-upgrade feature for dpkg/apt.
> >
> > I don't know what you are referring to excatly, but I too think that
> > there is no fundamental problem to be solved here.
> >
> > Apt doesn't do the trick of splitting the update into pieces so that
> > you don't need to download all package before unpacking the first one.
> > I think that in theory it should be possible to only download a
> > package immediately before it is unpacked and delete the archive file
> > afterwards again.
> >
> > This approach would make the update much less reliable, tho, since a
> > download failure can interrupt it.
>
> Well,  urpmi supports this, but it is really difficult to
> implement, mostly on big distributions where package names can change,
> packages conflicts, etc.. And it become even more difficult when you try
> to upgrade from two distro releases in the past to the current one. We
> usually need to implement some heuristic to handle such case and not
> fallback to "huge transaction which download more than 1GB of packages
> before starting upgrade". 
>
> I guess it will be easier for Maemo since the device has a small space
> capacity and less possible packages to install than a desktop distro.

Frederic if I'd known you were here I would have deferred to the more intimate 
knowledge.  Yes I never dared go more than one "release" level at a time. But 
more than once I used to across the country (in my case USA) to update a box 
without a problem.   Nice to see you again!

James
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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[James Sparenberg]

On Friday 05 October 2007 10:25:54 Steve Yelvington wrote:
> I thought the browser tab thing was an urban legend, but it turns out
> they're there, and probably agnostic to the HTML engine.
>
> Last item in the dropdown menu is "Advanced,"where you choose the
> browser engine, and among its (new?) entries is "View" with options for
> tab, box and window. However, in tab mode the tabs are placed on the
> left side of the screen, eating valuable layout space.

Yes but next to the "globe" for your bookmarks there is now a new icon for 
showing/hiding the tab bar, you can pull it out when you need it (like to 
close a view) and hide ti when viewing the web page..

James

>
> There also is a "policy" choice that lets you control Javascript for
> Google separately from the global settings.
>
>
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[James Sparenberg]

On Friday 05 October 2007 09:37:56 Acadia Secure Networks wrote:
> James,
>
> re:
> > PS  I'm finding a lot of things working much nicer in the new update
> > beyond the documented updates.  Like tabs in the browser!  Then again I'm
> > just glad I decided to wait recently.   I'd done a number of "fixes" that
> > I unfixed and I needed a clean install almost did it the day before the
> > release!  *whew*
>
> Tabs in the browser? Is that the Opera Browser or the Mozilla browser
> beta?  I seem to recall an earlier authoritative post in this thread
> that asserted that this firmware release was ONLY a bug fix release, not
> a new features release. Can someone from please state clearly what are
> the new features in this release if there are any?
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
>
>
> John Holmblad

Both actually Since it comes with Opera and you have to install microB.  Menu 
button => Advaced => View to see the 'changes"

James
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Re: Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[Luca Olivetti]

El Fri, 05 Oct 2007 13:25:54 -0400
Steve Yelvington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:

> I thought the browser tab thing was an urban legend, but it turns out 
> they're there, and probably agnostic to the HTML engine.

Nope, the advanced menu option disappears as soon as you install microb.

-- 
Luca
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Frédéric Crozat]

Le vendredi 05 octobre 2007 à 18:56 +0300, Marius Vollmer a écrit :
> "ext James Sparenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
> > Marius, In reply to the space constraint and upgrade done to the
> > entire OS.  This was first solved in URPMI for Mandrake around 8.1
> > (Now called Mandriva) and AFAIK it has been ported into the
> > dist-upgrade feature for dpkg/apt.
> 
> I don't know what you are referring to excatly, but I too think that
> there is no fundamental problem to be solved here.
> 
> Apt doesn't do the trick of splitting the update into pieces so that
> you don't need to download all package before unpacking the first one.
> I think that in theory it should be possible to only download a
> package immediately before it is unpacked and delete the archive file
> afterwards again.
> 
> This approach would make the update much less reliable, tho, since a
> download failure can interrupt it.

Well,  urpmi supports this, but it is really difficult to
implement, mostly on big distributions where package names can change,
packages conflicts, etc.. And it become even more difficult when you try
to upgrade from two distro releases in the past to the current one. We
usually need to implement some heuristic to handle such case and not
fallback to "huge transaction which download more than 1GB of packages
before starting upgrade". 

I guess it will be easier for Maemo since the device has a small space
capacity and less possible packages to install than a desktop distro.

-- 
Frédéric Crozat 
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Improvements in the browser (was Re: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[Steve Yelvington]

I thought the browser tab thing was an urban legend, but it turns out 
they're there, and probably agnostic to the HTML engine.

Last item in the dropdown menu is "Advanced,"where you choose the 
browser engine, and among its (new?) entries is "View" with options for 
tab, box and window. However, in tab mode the tabs are placed on the 
left side of the screen, eating valuable layout space.

There also is a "policy" choice that lets you control Javascript for 
Google separately from the global settings.


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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Acadia Secure Networks]

James,

re:

> PS  I'm finding a lot of things working much nicer in the new update 
> beyond the documented updates.  Like tabs in the browser!  Then again I'm 
> just glad I decided to wait recently.   I'd done a number of "fixes" that I 
> unfixed and I needed a clean install almost did it the day before the 
> release!  *whew*


Tabs in the browser? Is that the Opera Browser or the Mozilla browser 
beta?  I seem to recall an earlier authoritative post in this thread 
that asserted that this firmware release was ONLY a bug fix release, not 
a new features release. Can someone from please state clearly what are 
the new features in this release if there are any?


Best Regards,

 

John Holmblad

 

Acadia Secure Networks, LLC

*Serving the SmartDigital^TM home, entrepreneurial enterprise, and 
emerging network service provider markets*

* *



James Sparenberg wrote:
> On Wednesday 03 October 2007 08:12:02 Fred C wrote:
>   
>> On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 22:36:10 -0700
>>
>> Thomas Leavitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>> What I'm not understanding here is that the tablet is a debian Linux
>>> system, in it's essence... what's the issue with just making the
>>> updated packages available, for the power users and tweakers willing
>>> to go through the work of a manual update?
>>>   
>> What I'm not understanding is the big rush to update for a few minor
>> fixes, especially if there's the known potential of extra user overhead
>> getting the update and apps all sorted out.   If it aint broke, ...
>> 
>
> It was broke.  It tended to brick SD cards.  Want some?  They make fair 
> guitar 
> pics now.
>
>   
>> Or put another way, my Clinc's software runs over 1000 per year for
>> updates and support.  A couple month's ago the released a major
>> update/upgrade which I've still not installed.  It takes months to
>> sort out the bugs in this sort of stuff, plus the staff has to be
>> brought up to speed overnight.  So I'm sitting back and waiting for the
>> dust to settle so when I do the install (10 stations), it's rock solid
>> so I don't have to hassle of training the staff how do deal with a lot
>> of kludge workarounds to get work done, or (worse case) data crash
>> which would caase everything to come to a halt. I'm paying decent bucks
>> (along with 3 other clinics) for this update 'service', which I'm
>> choosing to go slow on.  Ditto for the megabuck software running my
>> dental cad/cam system.
>> 
>
> Wow I have the luxury of running 4 data centers that I watch update 
> themselves.  Note, none of them are windows.  I don't have the luxury of 
> waiting for security updates etc.  That would be for me, suicide.  
>
>   
>> It's laughable that a bunch of whiner techno geeks fully  expect their
>> newly released, reasonably functional, internet tablet to be provided
>> with instant FREE updates tto match their every whim.  As far as I can
>> tell (by clinical software standards), the OS that most of us are
>> currently using is really a modestly stable early beta version of the
>> final stable OS.
>> 
>
> This is linux.  That's how we work, release early and often.  No one is 
> complaining about the idea of the fix.  Just the way in which updates are 
> managed.  It's how we work.  We not only complain we also discuss and solve.  
> The whining you so fondly mention is for us a part of the process.  
> Communication is the key.  
>   
>> We're the guinea pigs of this project/product,
>> complete with a  significant segment of this user population who insist
>> on running on their damn noisey treadmill all night, who then
>> spend their days complaining about all the work they 'have' to do at
>> night. It's seriously funny stuff guys...
>> 
>
> I stopped being a guinea ping in 1996 when I removed my last MS install and 
> went Unix/Linux.   I'm not at all a guinea pig now.  I lost guinea pig status 
> because  I chose to be a partner in the development of the products future.  
> I've already seen a number of changes made just because of others who chose 
> to join in on this effort.  (Note, I need to contribute more, I know).  Once 
> is  a guinea pig only if you allow yourself to be experimented on.  One is 
> never the guinea pig if you are helping to run the experiment.
>
> James
>
> PS  I'm finding a lot of things working much nicer in the new update 
> beyond the documented updates.  Like tabs in the browser!  Then again I'm 
> just glad I decided to wait recently.   I'd done a number of "fixes" that I 
> unfixed and I needed a clean install almost did it the day before the 
> release!  *whew*
>
>
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Marius Vollmer]

"ext James Sparenberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Marius, In reply to the space constraint and upgrade done to the
> entire OS.  This was first solved in URPMI for Mandrake around 8.1
> (Now called Mandriva) and AFAIK it has been ported into the
> dist-upgrade feature for dpkg/apt.

I don't know what you are referring to excatly, but I too think that
there is no fundamental problem to be solved here.

Apt doesn't do the trick of splitting the update into pieces so that
you don't need to download all package before unpacking the first one.
I think that in theory it should be possible to only download a
package immediately before it is unpacked and delete the archive file
afterwards again.

This approach would make the update much less reliable, tho, since a
download failure can interrupt it.

Right now, I do think we have the space needed for the packages,
except maybe for whole-OS-updates on devices that don't have any
memory card.  I hope these are rare.

> Synaptic will run on the Nokia if you need a gui.  Heck I've got in
> on my blackdog and that was even more constrained than the Nokia is.

The goal is to give "apt-get dist-upgrade" to everybody, not just
those that know how to use apt-get or Synaptic.  But, yeah, we should
have given it to the apt-getting crowd first and earlier.
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Gary Baribault]

I have to agree with you, I aided another poster to start thin 'whining'
thread, ut it's part of the development process .. I did this flash
because my machine needed a fresh start and it did wonders. I just wish
the OpenSSH was working!


Gary Baribault
Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Key: 0x4346F013
GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013



James Sparenberg wrote:
> On Wednesday 03 October 2007 08:12:02 Fred C wrote:
>> On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 22:36:10 -0700
>>
>> Thomas Leavitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> What I'm not understanding here is that the tablet is a debian Linux
>>> system, in it's essence... what's the issue with just making the
>>> updated packages available, for the power users and tweakers willing
>>> to go through the work of a manual update?
>> What I'm not understanding is the big rush to update for a few minor
>> fixes, especially if there's the known potential of extra user overhead
>> getting the update and apps all sorted out.   If it aint broke, ...
> 
> It was broke.  It tended to brick SD cards.  Want some?  They make fair 
> guitar 
> pics now.
> 
>> Or put another way, my Clinc's software runs over 1000 per year for
>> updates and support.  A couple month's ago the released a major
>> update/upgrade which I've still not installed.  It takes months to
>> sort out the bugs in this sort of stuff, plus the staff has to be
>> brought up to speed overnight.  So I'm sitting back and waiting for the
>> dust to settle so when I do the install (10 stations), it's rock solid
>> so I don't have to hassle of training the staff how do deal with a lot
>> of kludge workarounds to get work done, or (worse case) data crash
>> which would caase everything to come to a halt. I'm paying decent bucks
>> (along with 3 other clinics) for this update 'service', which I'm
>> choosing to go slow on.  Ditto for the megabuck software running my
>> dental cad/cam system.
> 
> Wow I have the luxury of running 4 data centers that I watch update 
> themselves.  Note, none of them are windows.  I don't have the luxury of 
> waiting for security updates etc.  That would be for me, suicide.  
> 
>> It's laughable that a bunch of whiner techno geeks fully  expect their
>> newly released, reasonably functional, internet tablet to be provided
>> with instant FREE updates tto match their every whim.  As far as I can
>> tell (by clinical software standards), the OS that most of us are
>> currently using is really a modestly stable early beta version of the
>> final stable OS.
> 
> This is linux.  That's how we work, release early and often.  No one is 
> complaining about the idea of the fix.  Just the way in which updates are 
> managed.  It's how we work.  We not only complain we also discuss and solve.  
> The whining you so fondly mention is for us a part of the process.  
> Communication is the key.  
>>
>> We're the guinea pigs of this project/product,
>> complete with a  significant segment of this user population who insist
>> on running on their damn noisey treadmill all night, who then
>> spend their days complaining about all the work they 'have' to do at
>> night. It's seriously funny stuff guys...
> 
> I stopped being a guinea ping in 1996 when I removed my last MS install and 
> went Unix/Linux.   I'm not at all a guinea pig now.  I lost guinea pig status 
> because  I chose to be a partner in the development of the products future.  
> I've already seen a number of changes made just because of others who chose 
> to join in on this effort.  (Note, I need to contribute more, I know).  Once 
> is  a guinea pig only if you allow yourself to be experimented on.  One is 
> never the guinea pig if you are helping to run the experiment.
> 
> James
> 
> PS  I'm finding a lot of things working much nicer in the new update 
> beyond the documented updates.  Like tabs in the browser!  Then again I'm 
> just glad I decided to wait recently.   I'd done a number of "fixes" that I 
> unfixed and I needed a clean install almost did it the day before the 
> release!  *whew*
> 
> 
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[James Sparenberg]

On Wednesday 03 October 2007 08:12:02 Fred C wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 22:36:10 -0700
>
> Thomas Leavitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > What I'm not understanding here is that the tablet is a debian Linux
> > system, in it's essence... what's the issue with just making the
> > updated packages available, for the power users and tweakers willing
> > to go through the work of a manual update?
>
> What I'm not understanding is the big rush to update for a few minor
> fixes, especially if there's the known potential of extra user overhead
> getting the update and apps all sorted out.   If it aint broke, ...

It was broke.  It tended to brick SD cards.  Want some?  They make fair guitar 
pics now.

>
> Or put another way, my Clinc's software runs over 1000 per year for
> updates and support.  A couple month's ago the released a major
> update/upgrade which I've still not installed.  It takes months to
> sort out the bugs in this sort of stuff, plus the staff has to be
> brought up to speed overnight.  So I'm sitting back and waiting for the
> dust to settle so when I do the install (10 stations), it's rock solid
> so I don't have to hassle of training the staff how do deal with a lot
> of kludge workarounds to get work done, or (worse case) data crash
> which would caase everything to come to a halt. I'm paying decent bucks
> (along with 3 other clinics) for this update 'service', which I'm
> choosing to go slow on.  Ditto for the megabuck software running my
> dental cad/cam system.

Wow I have the luxury of running 4 data centers that I watch update 
themselves.  Note, none of them are windows.  I don't have the luxury of 
waiting for security updates etc.  That would be for me, suicide.  

>
> It's laughable that a bunch of whiner techno geeks fully  expect their
> newly released, reasonably functional, internet tablet to be provided
> with instant FREE updates tto match their every whim.  As far as I can
> tell (by clinical software standards), the OS that most of us are
> currently using is really a modestly stable early beta version of the
> final stable OS.

This is linux.  That's how we work, release early and often.  No one is 
complaining about the idea of the fix.  Just the way in which updates are 
managed.  It's how we work.  We not only complain we also discuss and solve.  
The whining you so fondly mention is for us a part of the process.  
Communication is the key.  
>
>
> We're the guinea pigs of this project/product,
> complete with a  significant segment of this user population who insist
> on running on their damn noisey treadmill all night, who then
> spend their days complaining about all the work they 'have' to do at
> night. It's seriously funny stuff guys...

I stopped being a guinea ping in 1996 when I removed my last MS install and 
went Unix/Linux.   I'm not at all a guinea pig now.  I lost guinea pig status 
because  I chose to be a partner in the development of the products future.  
I've already seen a number of changes made just because of others who chose 
to join in on this effort.  (Note, I need to contribute more, I know).  Once 
is  a guinea pig only if you allow yourself to be experimented on.  One is 
never the guinea pig if you are helping to run the experiment.

James

PS  I'm finding a lot of things working much nicer in the new update 
beyond the documented updates.  Like tabs in the browser!  Then again I'm 
just glad I decided to wait recently.   I'd done a number of "fixes" that I 
unfixed and I needed a clean install almost did it the day before the 
release!  *whew*


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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[James Sparenberg]

On Wednesday 03 October 2007 03:14:48 Marius Vollmer wrote:

>
> Likewise we can easily afford Debian style package management.  The
> one serious constraint we might run into is that there is not enough
> storage space to carry out an update of the whole OS.  But even that
> should not be that serious happen since even on the tablets, the OS
> itself is almost always small compared to the available storage (100
> to 150 MiB compared to a couple of GiBs).
>


Marius,  In reply to the space constraint and upgrade done to the entire OS.  
This was first solved in URPMI for Mandrake around 8.1 (Now called Mandriva) 
and AFAIK it has been ported into the dist-upgrade feature for dpkg/apt.  

One thing that would help IMHO is to break out the debs for the scratchbox 
environment away from the 'user' repository.  That way the temptation to 
install would not exist.  BUT they are still accessable by other means 

Synaptic will run on the Nokia if you need a gui.  Heck I've got in on my 
blackdog and that was even more constrained than the Nokia is.

James
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Eero Tamminen]

Hi,

ext Eero Tamminen wrote:
>>> From what I understand, it is enough to flash the kernel and initfs of
>>> 4.2007.38-2, no need to kill your rootfs.
>> Is there a straightforward way to do this from a FIASCO image?
> 
> Linux flasher at least has "--unpack" and "--kernel" options, so yes.

But one should note that upgrading just the kernel should be expected
to work only on top of the July N800 release...  If you try it with
an earlier release there might be issues as nobody has tested that
kernel + release combination.


- Eero
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[DrFredC.com]

Brad Midgley wrote:
> Fred
>
>   
>> What I'm not understanding is the big rush to update for a few minor
>> fixes, especially if there's the known potential of extra user overhead
>> getting the update and apps all sorted out.   If it aint broke, ...
>> 
> but 4.2007.38 does fix a situation that can brick an sdhc card.
>
> Brad
>   
Fine, if you've got a SDHC card that bricks your unit, there's a couple 
fixes to consider.

If you don't want to spend the time messing with your OS, or are looking 
to buy a SDHC card and don't want to have to worry about OS /card 
compatibility issues, buy a Sandisk 4G SDHC card, transfer your stuff to 
it and get back to doing something productive.  If time=money to you, 
that may be the way to go (sale price around the US is around $50).
The Sandisk 4G SDHC card works fine in my N800.

 Fine print, I'm not sure what n800 OS I've currently got -- it came out 
in early August. 

Also, if you're thinking of moving an bricking SDHC card into your 
camera and getting one that works for your n800, SDHC cards don't work 
in many digital cameras older than this current year,...

-- 

Always, Dr Fred C
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Brad Midgley]

Fred

> What I'm not understanding is the big rush to update for a few minor
> fixes, especially if there's the known potential of extra user overhead
> getting the update and apps all sorted out.   If it aint broke, ...

but 4.2007.38 does fix a situation that can brick an sdhc card.

Brad
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Marius Vollmer]

Eero Tamminen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I'm pretty sure that the dist-upgrade is going to require tens of
> MBs of free space to do e.g. because some of the packages are pretty
> large (check for example the Browser packages in garage).

Yep, but that doesn't sound unreasonable to me at all.

> Although the update would be automatic, doing all the package upgrades
> (downloading & saving the packages, then upgrading them etc) will be
> taking a lot of time.  Marius, are we talking about hours here?

No, I expect something more like minutes to tens of minutes.  (But I
am a convicted optimist when it comes to things like this.)  The one
data point I don't really have is installing a 40 MiB update, which
happened in a couple of minutes.

(I regularily update my device to follow Sardine, but those are really
small updates, in the order of one or two megabytes, and they usually
happen in less than a minute.)

> (During which the device may not run out of free space or battery
> or you might need to reflash anyway.)

It might be possible to automatically rescue a device after a
interrupted update: we still have the needed packages in the apt
archive cache and can retry the update very early on the next boot.
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Igor Stoppa]

On Wed, 2007-10-03 at 17:23 +0200, ext Frantisek Dufka wrote:
> Igor Stoppa wrote:
> 
> > Bootloader, Kernel and initfs should be packaged, but technically
> > nothing is preventing from reflashing them.
> > 
> 
> Except that at least current version of OS keeps initfs mounted and runs 
> relatively critical stuff from it. In theory everything should be 
> already cached in RAM but still flashing mtd device while jffs2 uses it 
> may lead to surprises. Could be solved by copying critical binaries to 
> tmpfs early on boot before executing them.
> 
> BTW documentation for next version talks about cramfs used for initfs
> http://maemo.org/development/documentation/how-tos/4-x/maemo_architecture.html#Flash
> Is this documentation bug or new feature?

I don't know about that. Initfs should become read-only (and by any
practical mean it already was: there isn't space even for deleting
files!)

>  Perhaps we can fit more stuff 
> to cramfs and don't need write access so this is not bad choice 
> (provided it can live in NAND and handle bad blocks). But still cramfs 
> won't solve issue with flashing live system.

Ideally we would use some "merge" fs, and for that there are several
possible solutions, but I'm not woking on it, so i won't comment further
to avoid mistakes.

In general initfs sucks and has been used for speedups in factory.

However using a file based approach could apply to initfs too (or its
replacement), leaving only the kernel and bootloader to be really
"flashed" without passing through the filesystem.

-- 
Cheers, Igor

Igor Stoppa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
(Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland)
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Frantisek Dufka]

Igor Stoppa wrote:

> Bootloader, Kernel and initfs should be packaged, but technically
> nothing is preventing from reflashing them.
> 

Except that at least current version of OS keeps initfs mounted and runs 
relatively critical stuff from it. In theory everything should be 
already cached in RAM but still flashing mtd device while jffs2 uses it 
may lead to surprises. Could be solved by copying critical binaries to 
tmpfs early on boot before executing them.

BTW documentation for next version talks about cramfs used for initfs
http://maemo.org/development/documentation/how-tos/4-x/maemo_architecture.html#Flash
Is this documentation bug or new feature? Perhaps we can fit more stuff 
to cramfs and don't need write access so this is not bad choice 
(provided it can live in NAND and handle bad blocks). But still cramfs 
won't solve issue with flashing live system.

Frantisek
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Fred C]

On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 22:36:10 -0700
Thomas Leavitt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What I'm not understanding here is that the tablet is a debian Linux 
> system, in it's essence... what's the issue with just making the
> updated packages available, for the power users and tweakers willing
> to go through the work of a manual update? 

What I'm not understanding is the big rush to update for a few minor
fixes, especially if there's the known potential of extra user overhead
getting the update and apps all sorted out.   If it aint broke, ...

Or put another way, my Clinc's software runs over 1000 per year for
updates and support.  A couple month's ago the released a major
update/upgrade which I've still not installed.  It takes months to
sort out the bugs in this sort of stuff, plus the staff has to be
brought up to speed overnight.  So I'm sitting back and waiting for the
dust to settle so when I do the install (10 stations), it's rock solid
so I don't have to hassle of training the staff how do deal with a lot
of kludge workarounds to get work done, or (worse case) data crash
which would caase everything to come to a halt. I'm paying decent bucks
(along with 3 other clinics) for this update 'service', which I'm
choosing to go slow on.  Ditto for the megabuck software running my
dental cad/cam system.  

It's laughable that a bunch of whiner techno geeks fully  expect their
newly released, reasonably functional, internet tablet to be provided
with instant FREE updates tto match their every whim.  As far as I can
tell (by clinical software standards), the OS that most of us are
currently using is really a modestly stable early beta version of the
final stable OS. 


We're the guinea pigs of this project/product,
complete with a  significant segment of this user population who insist
on running on their damn noisey treadmill all night, who then
spend their days complaining about all the work they 'have' to do at
night. It's seriously funny stuff guys... 
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Eero Tamminen]

Hi,

ext Josh Smith wrote:
> There is a thread (or two) about this on ITT.
> 
> http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10014&page=7

AFAIK only kernel changed.  And it only fixed the MMC issue
and should now detect some cards better.  Basically if you
were using the separate non-Nokia SDHC kernel earlier, you
should be better off with the new one.

I would be interested about any news on the contrary.
(If there are such, please, a new bug instead of 1024,
that's dealt with.)


- Eero
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RE: Updating software issues (was RE: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[Dr. Nicholas Shaw]

Gil,

Thank you for that update, it cleared up a lot!

Nick.
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Quim Gil
Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 12:51 AM
To: ext Dr. Nicholas Shaw
Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org
Subject: Updating software issues (was RE: 4.2007.38-2 available)

Hi there, for those of you concerned about this bugfix release and our plans
to improve the process of updating software in the tablets:

http://flors.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/sdhc-bugfix-release-updating-software-
in-the-nokia-tablets/

-- 
Quim Gil - http://maemo.org

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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Igor Stoppa]

Hi,
On Wed, 2007-10-03 at 16:33 +0300, ext Eero Tamminen wrote:

> Some misc notes of upgrades.
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure that the dist-upgrade is going to require tens
> of MBs of free space to do e.g. because some of the packages are
> pretty large (check for example the Browser packages in garage).
> 
> Although the update would be automatic, doing all the package upgrades
> (downloading & saving the packages, then upgrading them etc) will be
> taking a lot of time.  Marius, are we talking about hours here?
> 
> (During which the device may not run out of free space or battery
> or you might need to reflash anyway.)
> 
> 
> Because Chinook release is ABI incompatible[1], the upgrade will
> break many of the Bora 3rd party packages, so you need anyway
> to install Chinook versions of them.  Therefore dist-upgrade
> is less useful from Bora to Chinook than people might think.

I'd be happy if it could happen in 2 steps:
-download to local filesystem (MMC) the critical packages
-install from it only if there is enough energy available (full battery
or AC power)

This still leaves open the path of user removing either the card or the
battery but in that case the (potential) bricking is well deserved.

> Note also that the package alternative to reflashing might not give you
> everything due to same reason why Debian apt-get dist-upgrade might not
> be same as re-install[2].

Bootloader, Kernel and initfs should be packaged, but technically
nothing is preventing from reflashing them.

-- 
Cheers, Igor

Igor Stoppa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
(Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland)
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Eero Tamminen]

Hi,

ext Simon Pickering wrote:
>> As I said, the wine could be getting to me here in Montreal, but THAT'S
>> why I bought this toy, and that translates to 90 minutes plus if I have
>> to reconfigure it at each flash!!  And I repeat, Nokia, I'm not
>> bitching, thatks for the great toy, it's already making my life much
>> better, but please re-arange your priorities to give us this feature
>> before others.
> 
> And perhaps this is exactly all they will be able to give you. If you 
> perform an upgrade in place, it presumes that the upgraded files will 
> occupy the same or less space than those already there. If you have 
> almost filled up your internal flash with user-installed apps, then 
> there will need to be some way of deciding what you should delete/not 
> install to get the upgrade to work.
> 
> We should add to this the fact that (certainly in the old days) jffs2 
> required some reboots and free space to get it to reclaim the space 
> used by deleted files. This will become an issue if you want to do an 
> upgrade in place and have very little free space.

Some misc notes of upgrades.


I'm pretty sure that the dist-upgrade is going to require tens
of MBs of free space to do e.g. because some of the packages are
pretty large (check for example the Browser packages in garage).

Although the update would be automatic, doing all the package upgrades
(downloading & saving the packages, then upgrading them etc) will be
taking a lot of time.  Marius, are we talking about hours here?

(During which the device may not run out of free space or battery
or you might need to reflash anyway.)


Because Chinook release is ABI incompatible[1], the upgrade will
break many of the Bora 3rd party packages, so you need anyway
to install Chinook versions of them.  Therefore dist-upgrade
is less useful from Bora to Chinook than people might think.



Note also that the package alternative to reflashing might not give you
everything due to same reason why Debian apt-get dist-upgrade might not
be same as re-install[2].


- Eero

[1] http://maemo.org/news/announcements/view/1184675758.html
[2] Things like default file system changing from ext-2 to ext-3. :-)
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Eero Tamminen]

ext Levi Bard wrote:
>> From what I understand, it is enough to flash the kernel and initfs of
>> 4.2007.38-2, no need to kill your rootfs.
> 
> Is there a straightforward way to do this from a FIASCO image?

Linux flasher at least has "--unpack" and "--kernel" options, so yes.


- Eero



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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Levi Bard]

> From what I understand, it is enough to flash the kernel and initfs of
> 4.2007.38-2, no need to kill your rootfs.

Is there a straightforward way to do this from a FIASCO image?

-- 
"Tak does not require that we think of Him, only that we think."
--Grag Bashfullsson
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/shouldbefree.html
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Gary Baribault]

Thanks for the reply, I saw yesterday on another blog that the problem
might be one of cutture .. Nokia people used to working on phones and
not on a Linux OSS project. It's replies like this that show that Nokia
cares!


Gary Baribault
Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Key: 0x4346F013
GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013



Marius Vollmer wrote:
> "ext Gary Baribault" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> 
>> OK then, can I beat up on them?
> 
> Sure, keep it coming! :-) It is good to see what people care about,
> and a good rant is always appreciated.  It really does help keep my
> priorities sane, at least.
> 
>> I agree, this is a lousy way of doing the updates, I cannot suggest
>> this device to anyone if every time there is an update, all
>> applications have to be re-installed!! Why can't the update take a
>> proper#full backup to a flash card, dump a list of applications, and
>> after the flash, re-install the latest updated applications?
> 
> Nothing is impossible, and we actually have enough bright people here
> to have all the right ideas, but somehow it always takes lng to
> actually turn them into "code in your hands".
> 
> The "backing up and restoring the list of applications" feature was
> committed to the Application Manager trunk in February 2007 (with lots
> of bug fixes in the following months, of course).
> 
> Why are you still complaining about not having it? :-) Because it is
> only coming out officially about now with Chinook.
> 
> That's not right, if you ask me.  We are slowly warming up to the idea
> of public beta releases with the browser and sip things and we should
> be doing this for the whole OS.
> 
> 
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Tim]

Simon,

Sorry. The lib(s) are unknown.  I updated three of them at one time and
don't know which (or all) caused the problem. I will get you (and my
blog) the names later today... Yes, it was a terrible oversight.

Peace,
Tim

--
Weblog ~ http://tim.samoff.com
Baby Blog ~ http://kc.samoff.com
Photography ~ http://www.flickr.com/photos/timsamoff
Film ~ http://www.youtube.com/timsamoff
Music ~ http://www.adkoc.com


On Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:34:02 +0100
Simon Pickering <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>> I think I have you beat. I just reflashed with the (now) previous
>> firmware because updating a lib in red-pill mode bricked my N800:
>>
>> http://sense-datum.org/tim/archive/2007/09/17/Sunburned_parched_and_otherwis/tim_samoff__weblog
>>
>> It took me an entire weekend  to gett back up to speed. So, in
>> response, this new update is definitely _not_ cool. :(
>
>I couldn't see you mention the names of the libs that you upgraded to 
>cause your problem anywhere on your blog. Did I miss them, or could
>you tell us so that others can avoid the problem (or even fix the
>problem)?
>
>Thanks,
>
>
>Simon
>
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Marius Vollmer]

"ext Michael Wiktowy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> This conversation has been had many times in the past and Nokia has
> resisted it since it complicates updates in a huge way. It is a fact
> that it is more difficult to do this on a resource constrained system
> like the Internet Tablets than on a regular desktop.

The difficulties are not with the resources on the device, but more in
actually producing packages that are updateable without bricking the
device.

Even that is not very difficult, it just hasn't been tried in any
serious way for a long time, which means that millions of small
surprising details will likely pop up.  Or maybe not.

We needed to start doing it and to start learning the lessons.  It's
happening, maybe not as publically as one might wish, but it's
happening.

> However, I think people's perceptions that Nokia not offering this
> functionality in the first place is an outrage against Nature are
> born from their mistaken belief that the Internet Tablets are just a
> small desktop machine and have the same constraints and should
> behave the same way.

They are under the hood.  That's the point.  They are not geared
towards the same tasks and will behave differently on the surface, but
below the surface, they are (could be) your regular GNU/Linux
distribution without much problems.  We need to strip down Gnome and
the browser, etc, but not really the base OS.  Without knowing the
details, I would say for example that there is no point to remove
Perl.  Perl is part of a Unixy system now, and removing it means
breaking backwards compatibility.

Likewise we can easily afford Debian style package management.  The
one serious constraint we might run into is that there is not enough
storage space to carry out an update of the whole OS.  But even that
should not be that serious happen since even on the tablets, the OS
itself is almost always small compared to the available storage (100
to 150 MiB compared to a couple of GiBs).

> Reality is that they are much closer to the resource constrains of a
> cell phone [...]

I don't know enough about cell phones, but I would expect cell phones
to vary in their resources constraints enough to make this comparison
useless.
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Simon Pickering]

> As I said, the wine could be getting to me here in Montreal, but THAT'S
> why I bought this toy, and that translates to 90 minutes plus if I have
> to reconfigure it at each flash!!  And I repeat, Nokia, I'm not
> bitching, thatks for the great toy, it's already making my life much
> better, but please re-arange your priorities to give us this feature
> before others.

And perhaps this is exactly all they will be able to give you. If you 
perform an upgrade in place, it presumes that the upgraded files will 
occupy the same or less space than those already there. If you have 
almost filled up your internal flash with user-installed apps, then 
there will need to be some way of deciding what you should delete/not 
install to get the upgrade to work.

We should add to this the fact that (certainly in the old days) jffs2 
required some reboots and free space to get it to reclaim the space 
used by deleted files. This will become an issue if you want to do an 
upgrade in place and have very little free space.


Simon
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Marius Vollmer]

"ext Gary Baribault" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> OK then, can I beat up on them?

Sure, keep it coming! :-) It is good to see what people care about,
and a good rant is always appreciated.  It really does help keep my
priorities sane, at least.

> I agree, this is a lousy way of doing the updates, I cannot suggest
> this device to anyone if every time there is an update, all
> applications have to be re-installed!! Why can't the update take a
> proper#full backup to a flash card, dump a list of applications, and
> after the flash, re-install the latest updated applications?

Nothing is impossible, and we actually have enough bright people here
to have all the right ideas, but somehow it always takes lng to
actually turn them into "code in your hands".

The "backing up and restoring the list of applications" feature was
committed to the Application Manager trunk in February 2007 (with lots
of bug fixes in the following months, of course).

Why are you still complaining about not having it? :-) Because it is
only coming out officially about now with Chinook.

That's not right, if you ask me.  We are slowly warming up to the idea
of public beta releases with the browser and sip things and we should
be doing this for the whole OS.
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RE: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Simon Pickering]

> I think I have you beat. I just reflashed with the (now) previous
> firmware because updating a lib in red-pill mode bricked my N800:
>
> http://sense-datum.org/tim/archive/2007/09/17/Sunburned_parched_and_otherwis/tim_samoff__weblog
>
> It took me an entire weekend  to gett back up to speed. So, in
> response, this new update is definitely _not_ cool. :(

I couldn't see you mention the names of the libs that you upgraded to 
cause your problem anywhere on your blog. Did I miss them, or could you 
tell us so that others can avoid the problem (or even fix the problem)?

Thanks,


Simon
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Alan Williamson]

> Anyone care to host a survey of all applications that we load and how
> much time it takes to reflash/customize/restore? (Not to mention re-test
> the restore!)

The issue isn't how long it takes, is that many times you don't know 
which bits you have tweeked and which bits you have left alone.

I too am in the "outrage @ nokia" camp for this.  I already feel "dated" 
thanks to the iPod-Classic, and this sort of nonsense in terms of 
keeping my N800 uptodate is really not on in this day and age.

EVEN having to use Windows erks me; why can't it bloody update itself 
over the air?!!?  Is it not an internet tablet?   Why does Nokia have to 
make me install .NET to get this patch installed?

Time to rethink this chaps

-- 
Alan Williamson
  "a wiki -and- a blog" @ http://www.Blog-City.com/

  b: http://alan.blog-city.com/
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Marius Vollmer]

"ext Tim" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> It took me an entire weekend  to gett back up to speed. So, in
> response, this new update is definitely _not_ cool. :(

>From what I understand, it is enough to flash the kernel and initfs of
4.2007.38-2, no need to kill your rootfs.
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Updating software issues (was RE: 4.2007.38-2 available)

[Quim Gil]

Hi there, for those of you concerned about this bugfix release and our plans to 
improve the process of updating software in the tablets:

http://flors.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/sdhc-bugfix-release-updating-software-in-the-nokia-tablets/

-- 
Quim Gil - http://maemo.org

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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Thomas Leavitt]

What I'm not understanding here is that the tablet is a debian Linux 
system, in it's essence... what's the issue with just making the updated 
packages available, for the power users and tweakers willing to go 
through the work of a manual update? It doesn't do anything to prevent 
the folks whose time to restore is under 30 minutes from flashing the 
thing, and it isn't clear to me what, exactly, prevents this from being 
possible.

Thomas

Gary Baribault wrote:
> Hey Mike,
>
>   I think most people who are minimalists would not get involved in a
> Linux device, they would have gone for the IPhone. Sure there will be
> some of them who purchase a 400$+ device for minimal functionality, but,
> and I may be mistaken, the red wine is getting to me here, most of us
> have purchased this N800 for the power features, I have a Debian based
> device with BT and WiFi and 2 SD slots!!! YEAH
>
> As I said, the wine could be getting to me here in Montreal, but THAT'S
> why I bought this toy, and that translates to 90 minutes plus if I have
> to reconfigure it at each flash!!  And I repeat, Nokia, I'm not
> bitching, thatks for the great toy, it's already making my life much
> better, but please re-arange your priorities to give us this feature
> before others.
>
>
> Gary Baribault
> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>
>
>
> Mike Klein wrote:
>   
>> These #s mean nothing without taking into account target user as you
>> mention.
>>
>> Do Nothing: This person buys device, installs a few apps and nothing
>> else. (TARGET AUDIENCE)
>> Minimal: These users install bunches of apps, certificates, pgp keys
>> (SECONDARY)
>> Maxmimum: Power Users/Devt who fully tweak device, custom drivers, conf
>> edits, perhaps beyond restore-ability
>>
>> So for primary audience...what is prob' 30min. reinstall time isn't too bad.
>>
>>
>> mike
>>
>> Gary Baribault wrote:
>> 
>>> Yep, that's exactly what I mean, some people have put down 430$ (in
>>> Canada) for a nice toy, and they can flash and restore in 20 minutes,
>>> but most people (I think, and I may be wrong) have put down 430$ for a
>>> fully customised device .. I'm not looking to be skewing information, if
>>> i'm wrong, then I'm wrong, no prob, then Nokia is right!
>>>
>>>
>>> Gary Baribault
>>> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
>>> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>   
>>>   
> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
> minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
> minutes.
>   
>   
   If you limit your curiosity to those over 90 minutes, you'll 
 purposefully skew the results, which really isn't appropriate. 

   I'm a 20 minute flash and restore kind of guy, back in August when I 
 got the unit back from warranty service due to it's brick like 
 behavior.  Most of that time was spent watching TV while the unit and 
 laptop did their work.

   However, it's possible that it's easy and short for me because I've 
 kept things relatively simple on my N800 with a couple games, Gizmo 
 Project, Quiver photo viewer and Claws mail being just about the only 
 additions.  I've configured about 20 RSS feeds and 4 weather stations.   
 I've tested a fair amount of other stuff from Maemo, but then when I 
 find it of limited value or unfunctional, I remove it to keep the 
 clutter down.   It seems to speed boot up keeping things simple.  I 
 gather it may also help the restore process...

I guess the fine print is I've only recently started messing around 
 getting Claws Mail up to full speed with filters and stuff, so it might 
 be possible that I might have to spend some time fussing with restoring 
 some Claws settings there from a restore, but then again, perhaps not.  
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>>> ___
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>>>   
>>>   
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RE: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Dr. Nicholas Shaw]

Now that's funny... :-)

Nick.
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Brad Midgley
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 8:04 PM
To: Gary Baribault
Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org
Subject: Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

guys

It takes longer to read this thread than it does to reinstall my apps.
At least it's improving... I used to have to restore sources.list
too...

brad
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Michael Wiktowy]

On 10/2/07, Jac Kersing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Michael Wiktowy wrote:
>
> > Reality is that they are much closer to the resource constrains of a
> > cell phone and I don't know of a single cell phone that doesn't just
> > wipe everything that isn't on the SIM or external memory card on a
> > firmware update ...
>
> Sorry, not true. All (recent) S60 devices are firmware upgradable, backup
> before, flash new firmware, restore and all applications are available.
> (Somehow they forget to save/restore the bluetooth pairing information,
> but everything works just fine)

I can assure you that it is true that I didn't know of a single cell
phone of this type before ;]
Now I do ... can you install third-party apps on it and it restores
all those too or does it just restore the built-in apps like the
tablets do currently?

> > All that being said, I am not sure how many apps you have but reloading
> > my IT after a firmware update has never taken me 2-4 hours.
>
> Having to reinstall is a pain. Enabling blue pill mode for some packages.
> Resetting the root password after install of sshd. It is not cool to have
> to do every OS upgrade.

Don't get me wrong. I do agree that this needs to be fixed. In fact, I
complained to Nokia pretty soon after the very first firmware update
of my 770 after buying it right after coming out nearly two years ago
now.

My points were that:
1) Nokia has heard these complaints and have committed to acting on
them. As far as I know, they have not guaranteed this will come with
Chinook. It is a much harder problem than it seems involving a lot of
infructructure and the cooperation of third party repos.
2) Nokia allowing massive customizability and then yelling at them for
not accomodating people who tweak them to the max is not productive.
The easy avenue for Nokia is to just not allow third party apps like
Apple does with the iPhone. The comparison with the iPhone was just on
the basis of similar hardware (CPU speed, memory, etc.) not a
comparison of functionality. The apps that come with the firmware
reinstall quite nicely with next to zero time for reconfiguration.
However, I think that everyone would agree that this option would
suck.
3) I suggested ways that would make these 2 hour+
reinstallations/reconfigurations shorter next time. I can see
situations where people digging into config files and making custom
tweaks and setting up the tablet to have the same private key for sshd
it had the last time would take them a long time to redo. However, if
people are talented enough to dig around in and edit the config using
the command line, they are surely talented enough to add all those
config tweaks into a script that they can save and run in a few seonds
after reinstalling exactly two apps ... xterm and becomeroot. But
reinstalling a few more apps? If you keep the the .install and .deb
files around it doesn't take long. What app for the tablet takes so
long to reconfigure once it is installed? If it takes so long to get
set up right or work around problems, it is probably a problem with
the app that needs to be reported to the creator of it. Most Linux
apps pick good defaults right out of the box.

I am sometimes frustrated at the pace of development too but helping
with development is probably more effective than beating up Nokia.
Even non-coders can help by filing bug reports and offering technical
support to new users.

/Mike
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[James Sparenberg]

On Tuesday 02 October 2007 19:03:56 Brad Midgley wrote:
> guys
>
> It takes longer to read this thread than it does to reinstall my apps.
> At least it's improving... I used to have to restore sources.list
> too...
>
> brad

Ya don't have to read every post every time ya know *cheesy grin* 

James
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Brad Midgley]

guys

It takes longer to read this thread than it does to reinstall my apps.
At least it's improving... I used to have to restore sources.list
too...

brad
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[James Sparenberg]

On Tuesday 02 October 2007 18:45:59 Fred C wrote:
> I don't consider my n800 a toy.  I've been in and out of computers and
> prrogramming since 1968.  The N800 is a new device of extremely
> limited power, but very nice utility, if used within reasonable
> limits.
>
> Those expecting more need a reality check if they expect to push the
> envelope of a small handheld device without putting in a
> significant amount of effort AND time negotiating the back and
> forth world of fringe.
>
> Been there, done that over twenty years ago, and still doing it, only I
> carefully pick my battles. The N800 ain't one of those battles -- for
> me.  I use it to be able to reply to this email while hanging out in my
> kitchen while my dinner is nuked, amongst it's other uses.
>
>
>
> On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 21:04:42 -0400
>
> Gary Baribault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Yep, that's exactly what I mean, some people have put down 430$ (in
> > Canada) for a nice toy, and they can flash and restore in 20 minutes,
> > but most people (I think, and I may be wrong) have put down 430$ for a
> > fully customised device .. I'm not looking to be skewing information,
> > if i'm wrong, then I'm wrong, no prob, then Nokia is right!
> >
> >
> > Gary Baribault
> > Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > GPG Key: 0x4346F013
> > GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > >> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in
> > >> 20 minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take
> > >> over 90 minutes.
> > >
> > >   If you limit your curiosity to those over 90 minutes, you'll
> > > purposefully skew the results, which really isn't appropriate.
> > >
> > >   I'm a 20 minute flash and restore kind of guy, back in August
> > > when I got the unit back from warranty service due to it's brick
> > > like behavior.  Most of that time was spent watching TV while the
> > > unit and laptop did their work.
> > >
> > >   However, it's possible that it's easy and short for me because
> > > I've kept things relatively simple on my N800 with a couple games,
> > > Gizmo Project, Quiver photo viewer and Claws mail being just about
> > > the only additions.  I've configured about 20 RSS feeds and 4
> > > weather stations. I've tested a fair amount of other stuff from
> > > Maemo, but then when I find it of limited value or unfunctional, I
> > > remove it to keep the clutter down.   It seems to speed boot up
> > > keeping things simple.  I gather it may also help the restore
> > > process...
> > >
> > >I guess the fine print is I've only recently started messing
> > > around getting Claws Mail up to full speed with filters and stuff,
> > > so it might be possible that I might have to spend some time
> > > fussing with restoring some Claws settings there from a restore,
> > > but then again, perhaps not.

The only thing I "question" (and I use that term loosly) is calling it 
underpowered.  I tend to view it as if I am saying. "What could I do on a 
desktop in 1999?"  This little handheld is as powerful as my 300Mhz K-6 was 
with more storage room (I only had a 6G drive on that box.) as such no.  I 
don't expect 3D graphics or high end gaming.  But if I could do it on that 
box back then, I can surely do it here and now.  Baring of course instruction 
set differences.

When looked at in that light.  It's really awsome how much power is in my 
hand.  

James

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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Mike Klein]

Regardless of my most likely incorrect categorization...it exists and
affects #s reported that if people don't include category they fall
into...then #s mean nothing.

Nokia knows it is a problem and plans to address it anyways...so kudos
to them.

Since N800 isn't a phone I can't see comparison to iPhone being
relevant. For a Linux device...the N800 is quite user friendly and I
believe "Joe Consumer" would have a good time with it...short of
codec/cpu limitations and certain videos not playing well.

PepperPad3 is another example of a Linux device you could (kind of) give
to Mom. I handed mine off to mother recently and she had no problem
accessing her web-mail, playing games and watching videos/etc. I'd
installed.

Minimal functionality? As much as I harp on my other devices...I don't
critique the N800 for having no func out of box. My only gripes are lack
of eyelet/ring for neck lanyard, no phone/3g/keybd and cpu speed/codecs.
I can't scream about lack of a2dp when linux in general suffers in this
area. Yeah I want higher res and hdmi out...but we must be patient...


mike

Gary Baribault wrote:
> Hey Mike,
>
>   I think most people who are minimalists would not get involved in a
> Linux device, they would have gone for the IPhone. Sure there will be
> some of them who purchase a 400$+ device for minimal functionality, but,
> and I may be mistaken, the red wine is getting to me here, most of us
> have purchased this N800 for the power features, I have a Debian based
> device with BT and WiFi and 2 SD slots!!! YEAH
>
> As I said, the wine could be getting to me here in Montreal, but THAT'S
> why I bought this toy, and that translates to 90 minutes plus if I have
> to reconfigure it at each flash!!  And I repeat, Nokia, I'm not
> bitching, thatks for the great toy, it's already making my life much
> better, but please re-arange your priorities to give us this feature
> before others.
>
>
> Gary Baribault
> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>
>
>
> Mike Klein wrote:
>   
>> These #s mean nothing without taking into account target user as you
>> mention.
>>
>> Do Nothing: This person buys device, installs a few apps and nothing
>> else. (TARGET AUDIENCE)
>> Minimal: These users install bunches of apps, certificates, pgp keys
>> (SECONDARY)
>> Maxmimum: Power Users/Devt who fully tweak device, custom drivers, conf
>> edits, perhaps beyond restore-ability
>>
>> So for primary audience...what is prob' 30min. reinstall time isn't too bad.
>>
>>
>> mike
>>
>> Gary Baribault wrote:
>> 
>>> Yep, that's exactly what I mean, some people have put down 430$ (in
>>> Canada) for a nice toy, and they can flash and restore in 20 minutes,
>>> but most people (I think, and I may be wrong) have put down 430$ for a
>>> fully customised device .. I'm not looking to be skewing information, if
>>> i'm wrong, then I'm wrong, no prob, then Nokia is right!
>>>
>>>
>>> Gary Baribault
>>> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
>>> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>   
>>>   
> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
> minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
> minutes.
>   
>   
   If you limit your curiosity to those over 90 minutes, you'll 
 purposefully skew the results, which really isn't appropriate. 

   I'm a 20 minute flash and restore kind of guy, back in August when I 
 got the unit back from warranty service due to it's brick like 
 behavior.  Most of that time was spent watching TV while the unit and 
 laptop did their work.

   However, it's possible that it's easy and short for me because I've 
 kept things relatively simple on my N800 with a couple games, Gizmo 
 Project, Quiver photo viewer and Claws mail being just about the only 
 additions.  I've configured about 20 RSS feeds and 4 weather stations.   
 I've tested a fair amount of other stuff from Maemo, but then when I 
 find it of limited value or unfunctional, I remove it to keep the 
 clutter down.   It seems to speed boot up keeping things simple.  I 
 gather it may also help the restore process...

I guess the fine print is I've only recently started messing around 
 getting Claws Mail up to full speed with filters and stuff, so it might 
 be possible that I might have to spend some time fussing with restoring 
 some Claws settings there from a restore, but then again, perhaps not.  
 ___
 maemo-users mailing list
 maemo-users@maemo.org
 https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users


 
 
>>> ___
>>> maemo-users mailing list
>>> maemo-users@maemo.org
>>> https://lis

Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Fred C]

I don't consider my n800 a toy.  I've been in and out of computers and
prrogramming since 1968.  The N800 is a new device of extremely
limited power, but very nice utility, if used within reasonable
limits.  

Those expecting more need a reality check if they expect to push the
envelope of a small handheld device without putting in a
significant amount of effort AND time negotiating the back and
forth world of fringe. 

Been there, done that over twenty years ago, and still doing it, only I
carefully pick my battles. The N800 ain't one of those battles -- for
me.  I use it to be able to reply to this email while hanging out in my
kitchen while my dinner is nuked, amongst it's other uses.



On Tue, 02 Oct 2007 21:04:42 -0400
Gary Baribault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Yep, that's exactly what I mean, some people have put down 430$ (in
> Canada) for a nice toy, and they can flash and restore in 20 minutes,
> but most people (I think, and I may be wrong) have put down 430$ for a
> fully customised device .. I'm not looking to be skewing information,
> if i'm wrong, then I'm wrong, no prob, then Nokia is right!
> 
> 
> Gary Baribault
> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
> 
> 
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in
> >> 20 minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take
> >> over 90 minutes.
> >   If you limit your curiosity to those over 90 minutes, you'll 
> > purposefully skew the results, which really isn't appropriate. 
> > 
> >   I'm a 20 minute flash and restore kind of guy, back in August
> > when I got the unit back from warranty service due to it's brick
> > like behavior.  Most of that time was spent watching TV while the
> > unit and laptop did their work.
> > 
> >   However, it's possible that it's easy and short for me because
> > I've kept things relatively simple on my N800 with a couple games,
> > Gizmo Project, Quiver photo viewer and Claws mail being just about
> > the only additions.  I've configured about 20 RSS feeds and 4
> > weather stations. I've tested a fair amount of other stuff from
> > Maemo, but then when I find it of limited value or unfunctional, I
> > remove it to keep the clutter down.   It seems to speed boot up
> > keeping things simple.  I gather it may also help the restore
> > process...
> > 
> >I guess the fine print is I've only recently started messing
> > around getting Claws Mail up to full speed with filters and stuff,
> > so it might be possible that I might have to spend some time
> > fussing with restoring some Claws settings there from a restore,
> > but then again, perhaps not.
> > ___ maemo-users mailing
> > list maemo-users@maemo.org
> > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
> > 
> > 
> 
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Jonathan Greene]

Stay tuned Brian ...
http://tabletblog.com/2007/09/third-internet-tablet-slider-confirmed.html

On 10/2/07, Brian Litzinger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Oct 02, 2007 at 12:24:48PM -0700, Mike Klein wrote:
> > This is how I read the announcement...fixes for just 2 bugs. However it
> > Btw (not to compare rotten apples to florida oranges) but WM
> > phones/devices and many others work the same way...reflash and
> reinstall.
>
> I own an N800 and a Sprint Mogul (HTC 6800).  I sure wish the n800 had a
> little keyboard.
>
> ActiveSync solves most of the reflash problem on the WM devices.
>
> At least for apps that use it.
>
> --
> Brian Litzinger
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AIM / iChat - atmasphere
gtalk / jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Skype / Gizmo - JonathanGreene
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Gary Baribault]

Hey Mike,

I think most people who are minimalists would not get involved in a
Linux device, they would have gone for the IPhone. Sure there will be
some of them who purchase a 400$+ device for minimal functionality, but,
and I may be mistaken, the red wine is getting to me here, most of us
have purchased this N800 for the power features, I have a Debian based
device with BT and WiFi and 2 SD slots!!! YEAH

As I said, the wine could be getting to me here in Montreal, but THAT'S
why I bought this toy, and that translates to 90 minutes plus if I have
to reconfigure it at each flash!!  And I repeat, Nokia, I'm not
bitching, thatks for the great toy, it's already making my life much
better, but please re-arange your priorities to give us this feature
before others.


Gary Baribault
Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Key: 0x4346F013
GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013



Mike Klein wrote:
> These #s mean nothing without taking into account target user as you
> mention.
> 
> Do Nothing: This person buys device, installs a few apps and nothing
> else. (TARGET AUDIENCE)
> Minimal: These users install bunches of apps, certificates, pgp keys
> (SECONDARY)
> Maxmimum: Power Users/Devt who fully tweak device, custom drivers, conf
> edits, perhaps beyond restore-ability
> 
> So for primary audience...what is prob' 30min. reinstall time isn't too bad.
> 
> 
> mike
> 
> Gary Baribault wrote:
>> Yep, that's exactly what I mean, some people have put down 430$ (in
>> Canada) for a nice toy, and they can flash and restore in 20 minutes,
>> but most people (I think, and I may be wrong) have put down 430$ for a
>> fully customised device .. I'm not looking to be skewing information, if
>> i'm wrong, then I'm wrong, no prob, then Nokia is right!
>>
>>
>> Gary Baribault
>> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
>> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>>
>>
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>   
 I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
 minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
 minutes.
   
>>>   If you limit your curiosity to those over 90 minutes, you'll 
>>> purposefully skew the results, which really isn't appropriate. 
>>>
>>>   I'm a 20 minute flash and restore kind of guy, back in August when I 
>>> got the unit back from warranty service due to it's brick like 
>>> behavior.  Most of that time was spent watching TV while the unit and 
>>> laptop did their work.
>>>
>>>   However, it's possible that it's easy and short for me because I've 
>>> kept things relatively simple on my N800 with a couple games, Gizmo 
>>> Project, Quiver photo viewer and Claws mail being just about the only 
>>> additions.  I've configured about 20 RSS feeds and 4 weather stations.   
>>> I've tested a fair amount of other stuff from Maemo, but then when I 
>>> find it of limited value or unfunctional, I remove it to keep the 
>>> clutter down.   It seems to speed boot up keeping things simple.  I 
>>> gather it may also help the restore process...
>>>
>>>I guess the fine print is I've only recently started messing around 
>>> getting Claws Mail up to full speed with filters and stuff, so it might 
>>> be possible that I might have to spend some time fussing with restoring 
>>> some Claws settings there from a restore, but then again, perhaps not.  
>>> ___
>>> maemo-users mailing list
>>> maemo-users@maemo.org
>>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>> ___
>> maemo-users mailing list
>> maemo-users@maemo.org
>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>>   
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Mike Klein]

These #s mean nothing without taking into account target user as you
mention.

Do Nothing: This person buys device, installs a few apps and nothing
else. (TARGET AUDIENCE)
Minimal: These users install bunches of apps, certificates, pgp keys
(SECONDARY)
Maxmimum: Power Users/Devt who fully tweak device, custom drivers, conf
edits, perhaps beyond restore-ability

So for primary audience...what is prob' 30min. reinstall time isn't too bad.


mike

Gary Baribault wrote:
> Yep, that's exactly what I mean, some people have put down 430$ (in
> Canada) for a nice toy, and they can flash and restore in 20 minutes,
> but most people (I think, and I may be wrong) have put down 430$ for a
> fully customised device .. I'm not looking to be skewing information, if
> i'm wrong, then I'm wrong, no prob, then Nokia is right!
>
>
> Gary Baribault
> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>   
>>> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
>>> minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
>>> minutes.
>>>   
>>   If you limit your curiosity to those over 90 minutes, you'll 
>> purposefully skew the results, which really isn't appropriate. 
>>
>>   I'm a 20 minute flash and restore kind of guy, back in August when I 
>> got the unit back from warranty service due to it's brick like 
>> behavior.  Most of that time was spent watching TV while the unit and 
>> laptop did their work.
>>
>>   However, it's possible that it's easy and short for me because I've 
>> kept things relatively simple on my N800 with a couple games, Gizmo 
>> Project, Quiver photo viewer and Claws mail being just about the only 
>> additions.  I've configured about 20 RSS feeds and 4 weather stations.   
>> I've tested a fair amount of other stuff from Maemo, but then when I 
>> find it of limited value or unfunctional, I remove it to keep the 
>> clutter down.   It seems to speed boot up keeping things simple.  I 
>> gather it may also help the restore process...
>>
>>I guess the fine print is I've only recently started messing around 
>> getting Claws Mail up to full speed with filters and stuff, so it might 
>> be possible that I might have to spend some time fussing with restoring 
>> some Claws settings there from a restore, but then again, perhaps not.  
>> ___
>> maemo-users mailing list
>> maemo-users@maemo.org
>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>>
>>
>> 
> ___
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> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>   
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Gary Baribault]

Yep, that's exactly what I mean, some people have put down 430$ (in
Canada) for a nice toy, and they can flash and restore in 20 minutes,
but most people (I think, and I may be wrong) have put down 430$ for a
fully customised device .. I'm not looking to be skewing information, if
i'm wrong, then I'm wrong, no prob, then Nokia is right!


Gary Baribault
Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Key: 0x4346F013
GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
>> minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
>> minutes.
>   If you limit your curiosity to those over 90 minutes, you'll 
> purposefully skew the results, which really isn't appropriate. 
> 
>   I'm a 20 minute flash and restore kind of guy, back in August when I 
> got the unit back from warranty service due to it's brick like 
> behavior.  Most of that time was spent watching TV while the unit and 
> laptop did their work.
> 
>   However, it's possible that it's easy and short for me because I've 
> kept things relatively simple on my N800 with a couple games, Gizmo 
> Project, Quiver photo viewer and Claws mail being just about the only 
> additions.  I've configured about 20 RSS feeds and 4 weather stations.   
> I've tested a fair amount of other stuff from Maemo, but then when I 
> find it of limited value or unfunctional, I remove it to keep the 
> clutter down.   It seems to speed boot up keeping things simple.  I 
> gather it may also help the restore process...
> 
>I guess the fine print is I've only recently started messing around 
> getting Claws Mail up to full speed with filters and stuff, so it might 
> be possible that I might have to spend some time fussing with restoring 
> some Claws settings there from a restore, but then again, perhaps not.  
> ___
> maemo-users mailing list
> maemo-users@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
> 
> 
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RE: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Tim]

All,

I think I have you beat. I just reflashed with the (now) previous
firmware because updating a lib in red-pill mode bricked my N800:

http://sense-datum.org/tim/archive/2007/09/17/Sunburned_parched_and_otherwis/tim_samoff__weblog

It took me an entire weekend  to gett back up to speed. So, in
response, this new update is definitely _not_ cool. :(

Tim

--
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Baby Blog ~ http://kc.samoff.com
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Film ~ http://www.youtube.com/timsamoff
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
> minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
> minutes.
  If you limit your curiosity to those over 90 minutes, you'll 
purposefully skew the results, which really isn't appropriate. 

  I'm a 20 minute flash and restore kind of guy, back in August when I 
got the unit back from warranty service due to it's brick like 
behavior.  Most of that time was spent watching TV while the unit and 
laptop did their work.

  However, it's possible that it's easy and short for me because I've 
kept things relatively simple on my N800 with a couple games, Gizmo 
Project, Quiver photo viewer and Claws mail being just about the only 
additions.  I've configured about 20 RSS feeds and 4 weather stations.   
I've tested a fair amount of other stuff from Maemo, but then when I 
find it of limited value or unfunctional, I remove it to keep the 
clutter down.   It seems to speed boot up keeping things simple.  I 
gather it may also help the restore process...

   I guess the fine print is I've only recently started messing around 
getting Claws Mail up to full speed with filters and stuff, so it might 
be possible that I might have to spend some time fussing with restoring 
some Claws settings there from a restore, but then again, perhaps not.  
___
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[James Sparenberg]

On Tuesday 02 October 2007 14:43:34 Gary Baribault wrote:
> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
> minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
> minutes. I'm near there and have only had the toy for about 20 days. By
> the time I'm finished customizing the application load, configurations,
> ssh keys, and assorted other things, I will be well over that 90
> minutes, and I'm sure many other owners are even more customized!
>
> Anyone care to host a survey of all applications that we load and how
> much time it takes to reflash/customize/restore? (Not to mention re-test
> the restore!)
>
>
> Gary Baribault
> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>
> Jac Kersing wrote:
> > On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Michael Wiktowy wrote:
> >> Reality is that they are much closer to the resource constrains of a
> >> cell phone and I don't know of a single cell phone that doesn't just
> >> wipe everything that isn't on the SIM or external memory card on a
> >> firmware update ...
> >
> > Sorry, not true. All (recent) S60 devices are firmware upgradable, backup
> > before, flash new firmware, restore and all applications are available.
> > (Somehow they forget to save/restore the bluetooth pairing information,
> > but everything works just fine)
> >
> >> All that being said, I am not sure how many apps you have but reloading
> >> my IT after a firmware update has never taken me 2-4 hours.
> >
> > Having to reinstall is a pain. Enabling blue pill mode for some packages.
> > Resetting the root password after install of sshd. It is not cool to have
> > to do every OS upgrade.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jac

Actually I've found that doing it the Linux way for the rebuild helps  
however it still takes more than 6 hours of my time to get it all back 
together.  A tone of small tweaks etc.  Where some of the problem lies is 
that Nokia is a phone company, hardware wise.  I think a lot of things (like 
users wanting to keep the older version more than a year).  Really caught 
them off guard.  

Again though if this is a kernel level patch couldn't this be rolled into a 
kernel flash?  Also if it is a kernel patch.  Is the source up yet (need to 
get mppe in)

James
 
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[James Sparenberg]

On Tuesday 02 October 2007 12:19:49 Andrew Flegg wrote:
> On 10/2/07, Acadia Secure Networks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Also it would be helpful if Nokia would clearly specify ALL of the
> > changes in this release. Is there any reason not to?
>
> The fact that the initial digit (i.e. the revision number) is the same
> suggests that the changes are minor. How do you know that it's *not*
> just the SDHC card fix?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew


If it is just the SDHC card fix, and that would be kernel level.  Could a 
Kernel image accomplish the same thing?

James
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RE: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Dr. Nicholas Shaw]

Kemal,

That's nice.  I also have an e-mail from Nokia stating that it would be
fixed in the 2d release.  Don't mind if I don't hold my breath.
Regards,

Nick.
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Kemal Hadimli
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 3:57 PM
To: maemo-users@maemo.org
Subject: Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

Nokia already announced that this will be fixed in the upcoming 4.x
Chinhook release. To install 4.0 you'll have to reflash but after 4.0,
each new release will be upgradable via dpkg.

Please do your research first. And no, caps won't help.


On 10/2/07, Dr. Nicholas Shaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I can't believe that Nokia still expects its users to reload everything in
> order to install a patch.  This has got to be the most poorly designed OS
> I've ever encountered.  Fixing this should be their #1 priority.
> comes out is absurd.  I've done this twice now.  No way will I install
this
> patch and go through that headache again!  Nokia, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO
GET
> THIS FIXED???

-- 
Kemal
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Gary Baribault]

Yeah, and as I said, I just got it, I assume (yep I know .. ass of you
and me) that I will get better at doing this, but it will also get more
customized. So .. I don't expect my time to get better, and I wonder if
Nokia could not change their priorities and give us this fuctionality
earlier .. sorry guys, but I think it's important.


Gary Baribault
Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Key: 0x4346F013
GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013



Thomas Leavitt wrote:
> Would take me at least that long... took that long when I had to 
> re-flash my N770 after a system crash, just a few days after I bought 
> the thing. Now? Much longer, I'm sure. Probably several hours, 
> continuous, and then several days of fiddling and oh I forgot that, etc.
> 
> Thomas
> 
> Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote:
>> I'm 3-4 hours.
>>
>> Nick. 
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> On Behalf Of Gary Baribault
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 3:44 PM
>> To: Jac Kersing
>> Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org
>> Subject: Re: 4.2007.38-2 available
>>
>> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
>> minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
>> minutes. I'm near there and have only had the toy for about 20 days. By
>> the time I'm finished customizing the application load, configurations,
>> ssh keys, and assorted other things, I will be well over that 90
>> minutes, and I'm sure many other owners are even more customized!
>>
>> Anyone care to host a survey of all applications that we load and how
>> much time it takes to reflash/customize/restore? (Not to mention re-test
>> the restore!)
>>
>>
>> Gary Baribault
>> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
>> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>>
>>
>>
>> Jac Kersing wrote:
>>   
>>> On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Michael Wiktowy wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>>> Reality is that they are much closer to the resource constrains of a 
>>>> cell phone and I don't know of a single cell phone that doesn't just 
>>>> wipe everything that isn't on the SIM or external memory card on a 
>>>> firmware update ...
>>>>   
>>> Sorry, not true. All (recent) S60 devices are firmware upgradable, backup 
>>> before, flash new firmware, restore and all applications are available.
>>> (Somehow they forget to save/restore the bluetooth pairing information, 
>>> but everything works just fine)
>>>
>>> 
>>>> All that being said, I am not sure how many apps you have but reloading 
>>>> my IT after a firmware update has never taken me 2-4 hours.
>>>>   
>>> Having to reinstall is a pain. Enabling blue pill mode for some packages. 
>>> Resetting the root password after install of sshd. It is not cool to have 
>>> to do every OS upgrade.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Jac
>>>
>>> ---
>>>   Jac KersingTechnical Consultant   The-Box Development
>>>   [EMAIL PROTECTED] CISSP   RHCEhttp://www.the-box.com
>>> ___
>>> maemo-users mailing list
>>> maemo-users@maemo.org
>>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>>>
>>>
>>> 
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Thomas Leavitt]

Would take me at least that long... took that long when I had to 
re-flash my N770 after a system crash, just a few days after I bought 
the thing. Now? Much longer, I'm sure. Probably several hours, 
continuous, and then several days of fiddling and oh I forgot that, etc.

Thomas

Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote:
> I'm 3-4 hours.
>
> Nick. 
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Gary Baribault
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 3:44 PM
> To: Jac Kersing
> Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org
> Subject: Re: 4.2007.38-2 available
>
> I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
> minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
> minutes. I'm near there and have only had the toy for about 20 days. By
> the time I'm finished customizing the application load, configurations,
> ssh keys, and assorted other things, I will be well over that 90
> minutes, and I'm sure many other owners are even more customized!
>
> Anyone care to host a survey of all applications that we load and how
> much time it takes to reflash/customize/restore? (Not to mention re-test
> the restore!)
>
>
> Gary Baribault
> Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> GPG Key: 0x4346F013
> GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013
>
>
>
> Jac Kersing wrote:
>   
>> On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Michael Wiktowy wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> Reality is that they are much closer to the resource constrains of a 
>>> cell phone and I don't know of a single cell phone that doesn't just 
>>> wipe everything that isn't on the SIM or external memory card on a 
>>> firmware update ...
>>>   
>> Sorry, not true. All (recent) S60 devices are firmware upgradable, backup 
>> before, flash new firmware, restore and all applications are available.
>> (Somehow they forget to save/restore the bluetooth pairing information, 
>> but everything works just fine)
>>
>> 
>>> All that being said, I am not sure how many apps you have but reloading 
>>> my IT after a firmware update has never taken me 2-4 hours.
>>>   
>> Having to reinstall is a pain. Enabling blue pill mode for some packages. 
>> Resetting the root password after install of sshd. It is not cool to have 
>> to do every OS upgrade.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jac
>>
>> ---
>>   Jac KersingTechnical Consultant   The-Box Development
>>   [EMAIL PROTECTED] CISSP   RHCEhttp://www.the-box.com
>> ___
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>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>>
>>
>> 
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Kemal Hadimli]

Nokia already announced that this will be fixed in the upcoming 4.x
Chinhook release. To install 4.0 you'll have to reflash but after 4.0,
each new release will be upgradable via dpkg.

Please do your research first. And no, caps won't help.


On 10/2/07, Dr. Nicholas Shaw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I can't believe that Nokia still expects its users to reload everything in
> order to install a patch.  This has got to be the most poorly designed OS
> I've ever encountered.  Fixing this should be their #1 priority.
> comes out is absurd.  I've done this twice now.  No way will I install this
> patch and go through that headache again!  Nokia, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET
> THIS FIXED???

-- 
Kemal
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RE: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Dr. Nicholas Shaw]

I'm 3-4 hours.

Nick. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Gary Baribault
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 3:44 PM
To: Jac Kersing
Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org
Subject: Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
minutes. I'm near there and have only had the toy for about 20 days. By
the time I'm finished customizing the application load, configurations,
ssh keys, and assorted other things, I will be well over that 90
minutes, and I'm sure many other owners are even more customized!

Anyone care to host a survey of all applications that we load and how
much time it takes to reflash/customize/restore? (Not to mention re-test
the restore!)


Gary Baribault
Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Key: 0x4346F013
GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013



Jac Kersing wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Michael Wiktowy wrote:
> 
>> Reality is that they are much closer to the resource constrains of a 
>> cell phone and I don't know of a single cell phone that doesn't just 
>> wipe everything that isn't on the SIM or external memory card on a 
>> firmware update ...
> 
> Sorry, not true. All (recent) S60 devices are firmware upgradable, backup 
> before, flash new firmware, restore and all applications are available.
> (Somehow they forget to save/restore the bluetooth pairing information, 
> but everything works just fine)
> 
>> All that being said, I am not sure how many apps you have but reloading 
>> my IT after a firmware update has never taken me 2-4 hours.
> 
> Having to reinstall is a pain. Enabling blue pill mode for some packages. 
> Resetting the root password after install of sshd. It is not cool to have 
> to do every OS upgrade.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jac
> 
> ---
>   Jac KersingTechnical Consultant   The-Box Development
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED] CISSP   RHCEhttp://www.the-box.com
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Gary Baribault]

I'm sure that some of the N800 owners can backup/flash/restore in 20
minutes, but I would really be curious how many people take over 90
minutes. I'm near there and have only had the toy for about 20 days. By
the time I'm finished customizing the application load, configurations,
ssh keys, and assorted other things, I will be well over that 90
minutes, and I'm sure many other owners are even more customized!

Anyone care to host a survey of all applications that we load and how
much time it takes to reflash/customize/restore? (Not to mention re-test
the restore!)


Gary Baribault
Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Key: 0x4346F013
GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013



Jac Kersing wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Michael Wiktowy wrote:
> 
>> Reality is that they are much closer to the resource constrains of a 
>> cell phone and I don't know of a single cell phone that doesn't just 
>> wipe everything that isn't on the SIM or external memory card on a 
>> firmware update ...
> 
> Sorry, not true. All (recent) S60 devices are firmware upgradable, backup 
> before, flash new firmware, restore and all applications are available.
> (Somehow they forget to save/restore the bluetooth pairing information, 
> but everything works just fine)
> 
>> All that being said, I am not sure how many apps you have but reloading 
>> my IT after a firmware update has never taken me 2-4 hours.
> 
> Having to reinstall is a pain. Enabling blue pill mode for some packages. 
> Resetting the root password after install of sshd. It is not cool to have 
> to do every OS upgrade.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jac
> 
> ---
>   Jac KersingTechnical Consultant   The-Box Development
>   [EMAIL PROTECTED] CISSP   RHCEhttp://www.the-box.com
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Jac Kersing]

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, Michael Wiktowy wrote:

> Reality is that they are much closer to the resource constrains of a 
> cell phone and I don't know of a single cell phone that doesn't just 
> wipe everything that isn't on the SIM or external memory card on a 
> firmware update ...

Sorry, not true. All (recent) S60 devices are firmware upgradable, backup 
before, flash new firmware, restore and all applications are available.
(Somehow they forget to save/restore the bluetooth pairing information, 
but everything works just fine)

> All that being said, I am not sure how many apps you have but reloading 
> my IT after a firmware update has never taken me 2-4 hours.

Having to reinstall is a pain. Enabling blue pill mode for some packages. 
Resetting the root password after install of sshd. It is not cool to have 
to do every OS upgrade.

Regards,

Jac

---
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  [EMAIL PROTECTED] CISSP   RHCEhttp://www.the-box.com
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RE: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Dr. Nicholas Shaw]

I'm not sure I would characterize not performing updates without having to
reflash as an outrage against nature but it is more than mildly frustrating.
If we consider, for the N800, all updates since January and if it takes 3
hours to update the device plus reload/reconfigure all applications (this of
course depends upon how many applications we have) then a typical power user
might have spent up to 12 hours or more in less than a year.  I think, for a
device designed to make life easier, this is unacceptable.  

In one particular case, prior to updating in August my BT keyboard became
fully functional due to something I must have downloaded/installed.  Now
it's back to ok functional.  I'm sure it might become fully functional if
only I knew what changed but I don't.

I do backups every day so reflashing + restore does indeed return my
settings and bookmarks.  But, as others have already noted, that's only a
part of the story.  Reinstalling applications and reconfiguring those
applications is time consuming and tedious.

I don't know (not from your e-mail Michael) if comparing the tablets to
other phones is a reasonable comparison.  Perhaps comparing tablets to
phones such as Palm and Windows devices, such as a Treo, is more reasonable
as they have OS' and applications.  For these OS' it is possible to update
without reflashing or reloading applications.  Thus, I believe it is
perfectly reasonable to expect the same of a 'higher order' device.

Nick.
 

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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Gary Baribault]

I have a cell and have had one for a long time .. I use it to make phone
calls and ignore the MP3/WEB and Camera. I also have three digital
cameras I don't need another one. I have a Creative Zen M with a 30Gig
drive that I'm looking forward to giving to my son when I start to use
my N800 for MP3s. I didn't buy the Apple IPhone because it's closed and
forces me to buy DRM laden MP3s from a snooty Apple. Sorry not
interested .. I bought the N800, because it runs Linux, it's open and
it's just about perfect. I bought it because I want a mobile Internet
browser, with enough memory, and I wanted a WiFi XTerm portable that
could play MP3s and make VoIP calls. The built in camera is a nice
bonus, for chatting ... not for pictures.

I'm sure that I'm not the only person who was waiting for this, I was
even tempted with the IPhone, but would never have used the ITunes.

Nokia is very close to perfect with this, but it is NOT a phone, it's a
very small laptop or a big Palm/IPaQ .. it should be treated as such. I
know that it's ressource constrained, but I would be surprised if anyone
doesn't have a free 2/4 Gig external card that they would gladly insert
during upgrades to give Nokia a little extra storage during upgrades if
that's what they need.

I'm not that pissed off, but am making a suggestion that would allow me
to suggest to about 20 or 30 friends in IT that THE device is finally
here. Heck, my dad is near 80, was in IT for 30 years and would love to
have one for his travels rather that his Thinkpad T23, but not if he has
to re-install everything every time he updates it.


Gary Baribault
Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Key: 0x4346F013
GPG Fingerprint: BCE8 2E6B EB39 9B23 6904 1DF4 C4E6 2CF7 4346 F013



Michael Wiktowy wrote:
> On 10/2/07, Gary Baribault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> OK then, can I beat up on them? I agree, this is a lousy way of doing
>> the updates, I cannot suggest this device to anyone if every time there
>> is an update, all applications have to be re-installed!! Why can't the
>> update take a proper#full backup to a flash card, dump a list of
>> applications, and after the flash, re-install the latest updated
>> applications?
>>
>> It would have to be possible to overide, since some applications would
>> need to be updated, and it should be possible to tell the device to go
>> aheah and wipe everything out, but what where going to have here soon is
>> many devices out of date because people don't want to go through with
>> the update and then 2 - 4 hours of re-installs. That's not only
>> dangerous but very lousy for the reputation of the device.
> 
> This conversation has been had many times in the past and Nokia has
> resisted it since it complicates updates in a huge way. It is a fact
> that it is more difficult to do this on a resource constrained system
> like the Internet Tablets than on a regular desktop. Now Nokia
> realizes that users really really want this and are putting in the
> resources to make it happen according to their presentations. I
> suspect that we will see it in Chinook or (more likely) Diablo.
> 
> However, I think people's perceptions that Nokia not offering this
> functionality in the first place is an outrage against Nature are born
> from their mistaken belief that the Internet Tablets are just a small
> desktop machine and have the same constraints and should behave the
> same way. Reality is that they are much closer to the resource
> constrains of a cell phone and I don't know of a single cell phone
> that doesn't just wipe everything that isn't on the SIM or external
> memory card on a firmware update ... if they offer a firmware updates
> at all. Just look at the iPhone firmware fiasco happening right now.
> The iPhone has about the same resource contraints as an N800. Apple is
> not even letting users *install* third party apps and are
> intentionally bricking them if they have hacked it open. So compared
> to that user-hostile treatment, living with a Nokia device is not so
> hard to take.
> 
> All that being said, I am not sure how many apps you have but
> reloading my IT after a firmware update has never taken me 2-4 hours.
> There are things that you can do to make it much quicker. Make a
> backup on the external card. That will save your bookmarks,
> preferences ... pretty much everything except your installed apps. If
> you save the .install file (or the .deb file for those apps without
> one) each time you install an app, it is trivial to figure out what
> you need to install again after a firmware update. If you keep your
> application data on an external memory card, it will be nearly
> instantly accessible once you do reinstall. The data on the internal
> card will be instantly accessible once you restore the backup.
> 
> Just a few thoughts to make your update less traumatic.
> 
> /Mike
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Michael Wiktowy]

On 10/2/07, Gary Baribault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> OK then, can I beat up on them? I agree, this is a lousy way of doing
> the updates, I cannot suggest this device to anyone if every time there
> is an update, all applications have to be re-installed!! Why can't the
> update take a proper#full backup to a flash card, dump a list of
> applications, and after the flash, re-install the latest updated
> applications?
>
> It would have to be possible to overide, since some applications would
> need to be updated, and it should be possible to tell the device to go
> aheah and wipe everything out, but what where going to have here soon is
> many devices out of date because people don't want to go through with
> the update and then 2 - 4 hours of re-installs. That's not only
> dangerous but very lousy for the reputation of the device.

This conversation has been had many times in the past and Nokia has
resisted it since it complicates updates in a huge way. It is a fact
that it is more difficult to do this on a resource constrained system
like the Internet Tablets than on a regular desktop. Now Nokia
realizes that users really really want this and are putting in the
resources to make it happen according to their presentations. I
suspect that we will see it in Chinook or (more likely) Diablo.

However, I think people's perceptions that Nokia not offering this
functionality in the first place is an outrage against Nature are born
from their mistaken belief that the Internet Tablets are just a small
desktop machine and have the same constraints and should behave the
same way. Reality is that they are much closer to the resource
constrains of a cell phone and I don't know of a single cell phone
that doesn't just wipe everything that isn't on the SIM or external
memory card on a firmware update ... if they offer a firmware updates
at all. Just look at the iPhone firmware fiasco happening right now.
The iPhone has about the same resource contraints as an N800. Apple is
not even letting users *install* third party apps and are
intentionally bricking them if they have hacked it open. So compared
to that user-hostile treatment, living with a Nokia device is not so
hard to take.

All that being said, I am not sure how many apps you have but
reloading my IT after a firmware update has never taken me 2-4 hours.
There are things that you can do to make it much quicker. Make a
backup on the external card. That will save your bookmarks,
preferences ... pretty much everything except your installed apps. If
you save the .install file (or the .deb file for those apps without
one) each time you install an app, it is trivial to figure out what
you need to install again after a firmware update. If you keep your
application data on an external memory card, it will be nearly
instantly accessible once you do reinstall. The data on the internal
card will be instantly accessible once you restore the backup.

Just a few thoughts to make your update less traumatic.

/Mike
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Gary Baribault]

OK then, can I beat up on them? I agree, this is a lousy way of doing
the updates, I cannot suggest this device to anyone if every time there
is an update, all applications have to be re-installed!! Why can't the
update take a proper#full backup to a flash card, dump a list of
applications, and after the flash, re-install the latest updated
applications?

It would have to be possible to overide, since some applications would
need to be updated, and it should be possible to tell the device to go
aheah and wipe everything out, but what where going to have here soon is
many devices out of date because people don't want to go through with
the update and then 2 - 4 hours of re-installs. That's not only
dangerous but very lousy for the reputation of the device.



Gary Baribault
Courriel: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Key: 0x4346F013
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Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote:
> Thanks, John.  I shouldn't have lost my cool.  If you go to the regular
> update site, this 'fix' wasn't listed.  If it is just a minor fix (major to
> some folks), it makes even less sense to completely flash the device.
> 
> Ok, I'm going to stop beating up Nokia now and do some work... :-)
> 
> Nick.
>  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Acadia Secure Networks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:55 PM
> To: Dr. Nicholas Shaw
> Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org
> Subject: Re: 4.2007.38-2 available
> 
> Nick,
> 
> I share your pain and I wholeheartedly agree. The product will not find 
> traction in the business market (if that is a market in which Nokia has 
> interest for this product) unless this problem is fixed.
> 
> Also it would be helpful if Nokia would clearly specify ALL of the 
> changes in this release. Is there any reason not to?
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> John Holmblad
> 
> Acadia Secure Networks
> *serving the SmartDigital^TM home, entrepreneurial enterprise, and 
> emerging network service provider markets***
> 
> * *
> 
> 
> Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote:
>> I can't believe that Nokia still expects its users to reload 
>> everything in order to install a patch. This has got to be the most 
>> poorly designed OS I've ever encountered. Fixing this should be their 
>> #1 priority.
>>
>> I'm sorry to vent but this makes no sense. Many, like me, held off 
>> updating the last 'update' so bugs could be worked out. I waited until 
>> almost mid-August before updating and it took me a few hours to 
>> re-install all the applications I had before. To expect us to do that 
>> every time a new release comes out is absurd. I've done this twice 
>> now. No way will I install this patch and go through that headache 
>> again! *Nokia, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET THIS FIXED???*
>>
>> After the first release a message went out saying the next release 
>> would fix it. I bought my N800 the day it was released and here we 
>> are, three releases later, and still no fix in sight. L
>>
>> Nick.
>>
>> 
>>
>> ___
>> maemo-users mailing list
>> maemo-users@maemo.org
>> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>>   
> 
> 
> ___
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> 
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RE: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Dr. Nicholas Shaw]

Thanks, John.  I shouldn't have lost my cool.  If you go to the regular
update site, this 'fix' wasn't listed.  If it is just a minor fix (major to
some folks), it makes even less sense to completely flash the device.

Ok, I'm going to stop beating up Nokia now and do some work... :-)

Nick.
 

-Original Message-
From: Acadia Secure Networks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:55 PM
To: Dr. Nicholas Shaw
Cc: maemo-users@maemo.org
Subject: Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

Nick,

I share your pain and I wholeheartedly agree. The product will not find 
traction in the business market (if that is a market in which Nokia has 
interest for this product) unless this problem is fixed.

Also it would be helpful if Nokia would clearly specify ALL of the 
changes in this release. Is there any reason not to?

Best Regards,

John Holmblad

Acadia Secure Networks
*serving the SmartDigital^TM home, entrepreneurial enterprise, and 
emerging network service provider markets***

* *


Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote:
>
> I can't believe that Nokia still expects its users to reload 
> everything in order to install a patch. This has got to be the most 
> poorly designed OS I've ever encountered. Fixing this should be their 
> #1 priority.
>
> I'm sorry to vent but this makes no sense. Many, like me, held off 
> updating the last 'update' so bugs could be worked out. I waited until 
> almost mid-August before updating and it took me a few hours to 
> re-install all the applications I had before. To expect us to do that 
> every time a new release comes out is absurd. I've done this twice 
> now. No way will I install this patch and go through that headache 
> again! *Nokia, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET THIS FIXED???*
>
> After the first release a message went out saying the next release 
> would fix it. I bought my N800 the day it was released and here we 
> are, three releases later, and still no fix in sight. L
>
> Nick.
>
> 
>
> ___
> maemo-users mailing list
> maemo-users@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>   


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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Mike Klein]

This is how I read the announcement...fixes for just 2 bugs. However it
would be nice to see official change listeven if only to list these
2 bugs.

Btw (not to compare rotten apples to florida oranges) but WM
phones/devices and many others work the same way...reflash and reinstall.

I  that WM6 is going to offer an online update facility to
address these issues...but carriers may have a say in this.


mike

Andrew Flegg wrote:
> On 10/2/07, Acadia Secure Networks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> Also it would be helpful if Nokia would clearly specify ALL of the
>> changes in this release. Is there any reason not to?
>> 
>
> The fact that the initial digit (i.e. the revision number) is the same
> suggests that the changes are minor. How do you know that it's *not*
> just the SDHC card fix?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andrew
>
>   
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Andrew Flegg]

On 10/2/07, Acadia Secure Networks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Also it would be helpful if Nokia would clearly specify ALL of the
> changes in this release. Is there any reason not to?

The fact that the initial digit (i.e. the revision number) is the same
suggests that the changes are minor. How do you know that it's *not*
just the SDHC card fix?

Cheers,

Andrew

-- 
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  |  http://www.bleb.org/
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Acadia Secure Networks]

Nick,

I share your pain and I wholeheartedly agree. The product will not find 
traction in the business market (if that is a market in which Nokia has 
interest for this product) unless this problem is fixed.

Also it would be helpful if Nokia would clearly specify ALL of the 
changes in this release. Is there any reason not to?

Best Regards,

John Holmblad

Acadia Secure Networks
*serving the SmartDigital^TM home, entrepreneurial enterprise, and 
emerging network service provider markets***

* *


Dr. Nicholas Shaw wrote:
>
> I can’t believe that Nokia still expects its users to reload 
> everything in order to install a patch. This has got to be the most 
> poorly designed OS I’ve ever encountered. Fixing this should be their 
> #1 priority.
>
> I’m sorry to vent but this makes no sense. Many, like me, held off 
> updating the last ‘update’ so bugs could be worked out. I waited until 
> almost mid-August before updating and it took me a few hours to 
> re-install all the applications I had before. To expect us to do that 
> every time a new release comes out is absurd. I’ve done this twice 
> now. No way will I install this patch and go through that headache 
> again! *Nokia, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET THIS FIXED???*
>
> After the first release a message went out saying the next release 
> would fix it. I bought my N800 the day it was released and here we 
> are, three releases later, and still no fix in sight. L
>
> Nick.
>
> 
>
> ___
> maemo-users mailing list
> maemo-users@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
>   

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RE: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Dr. Nicholas Shaw]

I can't believe that Nokia still expects its users to reload everything in
order to install a patch.  This has got to be the most poorly designed OS
I've ever encountered.  Fixing this should be their #1 priority.  

 

I'm sorry to vent but this makes no sense.  Many, like me, held off updating
the last 'update' so bugs could be worked out.  I waited until almost
mid-August before updating and it took me a few hours to re-install all the
applications I had before.  To expect us to do that every time a new release
comes out is absurd.  I've done this twice now.  No way will I install this
patch and go through that headache again!  Nokia, WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET
THIS FIXED???

 

After the first release a message went out saying the next release would fix
it.  I bought my N800 the day it was released and here we are, three
releases later, and still no fix in sight. :-(

 

Nick.

 

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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Josh Smith]

There is a thread (or two) about this on ITT.

http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10014&page=7

cheers,
josh

On 10/2/07, Piotr Zagorowski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you are asking about:
>
> "This new release (version number 4.2007.38-2) provides a software fix for a
> bug which may have appeared while copying large amount of data over-the-air
> or from external SDHC memory card to internal memory or vice versa. In some
> cases the downloaded data may have corrupted"
> - and now all data are wiped completely - i hope not ;))
>
> And more seriously:
> "Beware that flashing a new image on the Nokia 770 or on the Nokia N800 will
> remove all user changes to the system, including preferences, bookmarks,
> news feeds, user installed applications... Everything not on the memory card
> will be gone and the device will behave as if just purchased with the single
> exception that any previously-set lock code will be kept and not reset to
> the factory-default of "12345" (even the code is not preserved on some
> images)."
>
> Pit
>
>
> On 10/2/07, Alan Williamson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > will this one wipe all the data?
> >
> > Piotr Zagorowski wrote:
> > > you have probably noticed:
> > >
> > >
> http://maemo.org/news/announcements/view/1191328183.html
> > ___
> > maemo-users mailing list
> > maemo-users@maemo.org
> > https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-users
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Piotr
> -
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>
>
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Piotr Zagorowski]

If you are asking about:

"This new release (version number 4.2007.38-2) provides a software fix for a
bug  which may have appeared
while copying large amount of data over-the-air or from external SDHC memory
card to internal memory or vice versa. In some cases the downloaded data may
have corrupted"
- and now all data are wiped completely - i hope not ;))

And more seriously:
"Beware that flashing a new image on the Nokia 770 or on the Nokia N800 will
remove all user changes to the system, including preferences, bookmarks,
news feeds, user installed applications... Everything not on the memory card
will be gone and the device will behave as if just purchased with the single
exception that any previously-set lock code will be kept and not reset to
the factory-default of "12345" (even the code is not preserved on some
images)."

Pit

On 10/2/07, Alan Williamson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> will this one wipe all the data?
>
> Piotr Zagorowski wrote:
> > you have probably noticed:
> >
> > http://maemo.org/news/announcements/view/1191328183.html
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>



-- 
Piotr
-
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Re: 4.2007.38-2 available

[Alan Williamson]

will this one wipe all the data?

Piotr Zagorowski wrote:
> you have probably noticed:
> 
> http://maemo.org/news/announcements/view/1191328183.html
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