Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Quote: Frank Griffin wrote on Sun, 27 March 2011 00:34 > For you to complain that because you have minimal network access, the > rest of the Mageia community should bend over backwards to avoid your > having to swap a few CDs during install is a pretty hollow argument, in > > my opinion. And why should all of us suffer the hassle of a DVD + a CD (how would that work for all those that use USB-sticks, do they now need two sticks? And do you expect magazines to include a DVD+CD to please Mageia? What about all the extra waste and pollution cause by dual media?) just to please the few ultra-orthodox free software fanatics that seemingly would get allergic reactions if the main media contained some non-free code (even if it's only installed upon an informed choice of the user)? Putting the non-free firmware on the main DVD should be a no brainer, since a clear install option is all that's needed to keep the systems of free software fanatics pure. -- Mageia ML Forum Gateway: http://mageia.linuxtech.net/forum/
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On 03/26/2011 06:37 PM, Maarten Vanraes wrote: During the times mandriva had several CDs to install it, the new ones often only dl'ed one and complained when stuff didn't work. I forsee possibly here the same issue with this, people will forget to download the extra non_free CD, or do not care about non_free; wipe their windows, install mageia, and have no networking to even get drivers anymore. how would we advertise this anyway? this extra CD contains non_free software, but if you have an machine with networking from vendor X with types Y,Z,... you will absolutely need this to have functional networking? it sounds to me like an awful lot of extra work, and complaints, etc... Well, then, maybe what we need to do is say that both ISOs, the 4.7GB primary and the 60 MB(?) secondary ar both required, and let the people who don't need the second one be pleasantly surprised.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On 03/26/2011 01:11 AM, andre999 wrote: Frank Griffin a écrit : From what you say, there are not a lot of points of disagreement between us, on this issue. We both have contributed to open source for a long time, you apparently mostly on developement/packaging, myself mostly translating/ aide in forums, with some contributions to development. (Currently an apprentice packager.) You find 2 isos a minor inconvenience, but in practice normally install online, from cooker/cauldron. Actually, what I wrote was that I hadn't used ISOs since I discovered cooker. I used them before that for many years (since about MDV 7.2), In fact, in the mkcd days, I used to burn all 9 of the 650-700MB CDs needed to contain the full package set. Myself, I find a single DVD that contains everything I need to get a fully working system (in terms of hardware/drivers) a major convenience, and do not have the luxury of the bandwidth necessary to install from the internet. I don't know if you have ever installed from Mandriva's 3-cd set, but juggling 3 cds on installing a package is a hassle that I very much prefer to avoid. One iso is great. Given the state of current technology, if you don't have the bandwidth to do network installs, then you are understandably at the low end of the marketing curve, and pretty much have to take what you can find. Don't get me wrong, I've been there. I've been an OS/2 enthusiast for years (actually, decades now), and I know what it is to be on the short end of the supply curve. And for about a year in 2003, the town I moved to had no broadband, and I maintained my cooker tree via dialup (god help us all). Through all this, my mindset was that I chose or had had imposed upon me these restrictions. I bore my Windows friends no animus for the fact that I had to jump through hoops to either find equivalent apps or run theirs under emulation in order to interact with others in my office. I did what I had to do in order to run the system I wanted to run, and I assure you that juggling a few disks during the install would have been the least of my worries. For you to complain that because you have minimal network access, the rest of the Mageia community should bend over backwards to avoid your having to swap a few CDs during install is a pretty hollow argument, in my opinion. As well, I appreciate very much the ability to do a complete, fully working reinstall without internet access. (To facilitate this, I keep packages installed from sources other than the DVD in a separate partition.) The single DVD is not only useful for myself. It is handy to promote Linux as well. Unfortunately, with missing firmware and drivers, the DVD will not fully work on many systems. And new users prefer a _single_ iso that just works. Having to juggle isos is a deterant. I'm sorry, but I don't accept this argument. It hasn't been so long since Windows installed from multiple floppies. I would accept that a new user who had been given the impression that the single DVD was all he needed would be annoyed if he found that the resulting system didn't work, but if it is shoved in the user's face that the second ISO is needed, I very much doubt that even a new user would try to install from the one ISO and complain about it. On the question of space on the DVD, you must admit that all the (non-free) firmware and drivers (not already included) would not take an enormous amount of space. And therefore, downloading an ISO for them could be done under dialup, or even two tin cans and a string. Note that on the Mandriva 2010.2 DVD, for example, the 2 biggest games take about 100 M and 40 M repectively. It is simply a matter of priorities. This is a completely separate topic. I tried to avoid it, because every time it surfaces in the cooker ML it results in a flame war between countless parties all jockeying to get their favorite app on the single DVD. If you want to jump into this, feel free, but not with me. I don't care what is or isn't on the primary ISO. In sum, it is easy to understand your point of view, as you don't (normally) use isos. Please understand the point of view of those who do, particularly those who have serious bandwidth restrictions. I do understand your point of view, but I don't espouse it to the point of saying that Mageia should trim its primary DVD or shuffle its contents just to save people with limited bandwidth having to juggle a few disks during an install.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Op zaterdag 26 maart 2011 23:15:22 schreef Oliver Burger: > Anssi Hannula schrieb am 26.03.2011 > > > I don't really have a strong preference here, as long as > > 1) it is consistent, and > > 2) users are happy (e.g. no situation where even the free radeon > > driver doesn't work with any ISO) > > Couldn't we have the following: > > - Live CDs (like Mandriva One, including proprietary stuff) (live cds > are planned, aren't they? > - A purely free, libre and open source installer dvd > - An addon cd for the installer dvd containing the firmware, drivers > and stuff? > > I know, if we have those "One-like" live cds, we don't really need the > last one, but I'm quite sure, there are more people than me out here, > who prefer a normal installer iso over a live cd... > > Oliver During the times mandriva had several CDs to install it, the new ones often only dl'ed one and complained when stuff didn't work. I forsee possibly here the same issue with this, people will forget to download the extra non_free CD, or do not care about non_free; wipe their windows, install mageia, and have no networking to even get drivers anymore. how would we advertise this anyway? this extra CD contains non_free software, but if you have an machine with networking from vendor X with types Y,Z,... you will absolutely need this to have functional networking? it sounds to me like an awful lot of extra work, and complaints, etc... but, maybe every new person uses liveCDs to install, i never did, so i wouldn't know. pfff, this is really a difficult topic...
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Anssi Hannula schrieb am 26.03.2011 > I don't really have a strong preference here, as long as > 1) it is consistent, and > 2) users are happy (e.g. no situation where even the free radeon > driver doesn't work with any ISO) Couldn't we have the following: - Live CDs (like Mandriva One, including proprietary stuff) (live cds are planned, aren't they? - A purely free, libre and open source installer dvd - An addon cd for the installer dvd containing the firmware, drivers and stuff? I know, if we have those "One-like" live cds, we don't really need the last one, but I'm quite sure, there are more people than me out here, who prefer a normal installer iso over a live cd... Oliver
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On 24.03.2011 22:27, Romain d'Alverny wrote: > On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 20:08, Anssi Hannula wrote: >> On 24.03.2011 19:35, Romain d'Alverny wrote: >>> Summary (from http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=licensing_policy): >>> * core: stuff that is not Free/Open Source according to OSI/FSF does >>> not belong here. Not even closed-source stuff that we can >>> redistribute. So if there is at this time, that's something to fix. >> >> Most of files in kernel-firmware (which is in core) are not OSI/FSF free >> (approximate list from 2010 [1]). There was a short thread about that >> [2] where I asked the question if they should be moved to non-free due >> to them not being OSI/FSF free, and tmb agreed, while pterjan disagreed >> (saying BSD without source code (where a portion of the firmware files >> in question fall) is eligible for core). >> >> [1] http://lists.mandriva.com/cooker/2010-01/msg00525.php >> [2] https://mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/20110115/002172.html > > Ah right, sorry for overlooking this. > > So what do we do? amend core inclusion definition for that? or move > these to nonfree? (and at what cost?) I don't really have a strong preference here, as long as 1) it is consistent, and 2) users are happy (e.g. no situation where even the free radeon driver doesn't work with any ISO) > topic for next Council meeting > to decide? Probably. > would you like to write a summary for this in > http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=meeting:council_notes_2011_03_28#open_questions > ? OK, seems I was late, sorry. The summary looks good. -- Anssi Hannula
Re: [Mageia-dev] Fwd: [RPM] cauldron core/updates_testing clementine-0.6-5.mga1
Op zaterdag 26 maart 2011 20:49:54 schreef Thomas Backlund: > lör 2011-03-26 klockan 10:44 +0200 skrev Maarten Vanraes: > > Op vrijdag 25 maart 2011 21:25:25 schreef Thomas Backlund: > > > Ahmad Samir skrev 25.3.2011 20:59: > > > > The repo name in installations is "Core Testing", so the > > > > inconsistency is not fully my fault :) > > > > > > Not anymore... > > > > > > I fixed the naming 12 days ago when I added media.cfg to svn. > > > > > > But since you already have the medias added, you have the old name. > > > > > > -- > > > Thomas > > > > a bit OT, but since then i had failures for core/updates, > > tainted/updates, non-free/updates repositories getting the hdlist. not > > sure if it's a bug, or something that's related to my own setup > > Try to remove and readd the medias, does it help ? > > -- > Thomas i'm going to doublecheck later, but i thought it was the MD5SUM that wasn't correct.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Fwd: [RPM] cauldron core/updates_testing clementine-0.6-5.mga1
lör 2011-03-26 klockan 10:44 +0200 skrev Maarten Vanraes: > Op vrijdag 25 maart 2011 21:25:25 schreef Thomas Backlund: > > Ahmad Samir skrev 25.3.2011 20:59: > > > The repo name in installations is "Core Testing", so the inconsistency > > > is not fully my fault :) > > > > Not anymore... > > > > I fixed the naming 12 days ago when I added media.cfg to svn. > > > > But since you already have the medias added, you have the old name. > > > > -- > > Thomas > > a bit OT, but since then i had failures for core/updates, tainted/updates, > non-free/updates repositories getting the hdlist. not sure if it's a bug, or > something that's related to my own setup Try to remove and readd the medias, does it help ? -- Thomas
Re: [Mageia-dev] lxde under gdm ?
On 26 March 2011 02:15, Ahmad Samir wrote: > On 26 March 2011 00:13, Frank Griffin wrote: >> This is probably an incredibly stupid question, but is LXDE expected to work >> in conjunction with GDM ? >> >> I thought I'd give LXDE a try, but both from my usual ID and a new ID, it >> crashes X (or appears to) and flips right back to the DM screen. >> >> I know there are LXDE advocates here, so before I enter a bug report I >> thought I'd ask the obvious question. >> > > Weird... it worked IIRC. I'll test again with latest cauldron updates. > > -- > Ahmad Samir > It looks like X crashes, please check /var/log/Xorg.0.log.old... -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] Please welcome a new packager
congratulations obgr_seneca :)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
Op zaterdag 26 maart 2011 13:19:10 schreef Michael scherer: > On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 09:33:04AM +0100, Tux99 wrote: > > Quote: andr55 wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 01:29 > > > > > My though was essentially that firmware is so close to hardware that > > > its > > > actual free/non-free status shouldn't apply - we should treat it like > > > (almost) part of the hardware. > > > > I agree with that. After all nobody (apart from R. Stallmann) questions > > the fact that the BIOS of their PC is non-free or all the other firmware > > or microcode on various chips on the motherboard and on expansion cards > > and peripherals. > > In fact, this bother a lot of people : > > People who write coreboot for example ( http://www.coreboot.org ). The > project started because someone wanted to be sure that his cluster didn't > have bios problem. It is a daunting task to hit any key on 1000 servers, > especially if none of them have a keyboard. > > People who just want to know how the pc work, for example, students in low > level system. Lack of source doesn't really help to understand and learn, > at least for the average people. > > People who maybe want to understand why the driver they wrote broke with > firmware update ( happened on some Apple laptop because apple updated > something that broke video driver on linux ). Or why it work with some > card and not some other, since they have a different firmware. > > People who wonder if their TPM chips is really under their control or not. > Maybe a bunch of loonies. Maybe they are just ex sony customers screwed by > their vendor, or people who had 1984 on their Kindle before Amazon removed > it. > > Or simply people that want to know what was fixed for their hardware. > ( https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/F14/FEDORA-2010-18594 ). Or just > want to avoid security issues ( > https://events.ccc.de/congress/2010/Fahrplan/track/Hacking/4174.en.html ). > Or avoid waiting 5 minutes delay when booting a server for likely no good > reason. > > Or people that have trouble because the lack of free software in their area > prevent them from doing their work as security researcher, as demonstrated > by the project Osmocombb ( http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/ ). > > But, yes maybe if we remove some security researchers, some cluster admins, > some people that would prefer to not be screwed by vendor, some kernel > developpers, some impatient sysadmins, some students, some coders and RMS, > there is no one who question it. i agree that free software is important, but if it's a blob without released source code but with BSD license, i really don't see the problem. perhaps someone could just ask the people who licensed it, for the source code...? but this is a thing to do for FSF, not mageia. that is my point. it doesn't mean i don't agree with what those people are doing, they should release it with it. But that still doesn't make it the job of Mageia to fix that.
Re: [Mageia-dev] lxde under gdm ?
I had it again after resizing screen under virtualbox. After reboot it's ok. 2011/3/26 David Pernot : > I had this issue too, yesterday after my daily upgrade. > I cleant my ~/.config dir and all went fine again. > > David > > 2011/3/26 Ahmad Samir : >> On 26 March 2011 00:13, Frank Griffin wrote: >>> This is probably an incredibly stupid question, but is LXDE expected to work >>> in conjunction with GDM ? >>> >>> I thought I'd give LXDE a try, but both from my usual ID and a new ID, it >>> crashes X (or appears to) and flips right back to the DM screen. >>> >>> I know there are LXDE advocates here, so before I enter a bug report I >>> thought I'd ask the obvious question. >>> >> >> Weird... it worked IIRC. I'll test again with latest cauldron updates. >> >> -- >> Ahmad Samir >> >
Re: [Mageia-dev] Non-free firmwares in installer
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 09:33:04AM +0100, Tux99 wrote: > > > Quote: andr55 wrote on Fri, 25 March 2011 01:29 > > > My though was essentially that firmware is so close to hardware that > > its > > actual free/non-free status shouldn't apply - we should treat it like > > (almost) part of the hardware. > > I agree with that. After all nobody (apart from R. Stallmann) questions the > fact that the BIOS of their PC is non-free or all the other firmware or > microcode on various chips on the motherboard and on expansion cards and > peripherals. In fact, this bother a lot of people : People who write coreboot for example ( http://www.coreboot.org ). The project started because someone wanted to be sure that his cluster didn't have bios problem. It is a daunting task to hit any key on 1000 servers, especially if none of them have a keyboard. People who just want to know how the pc work, for example, students in low level system. Lack of source doesn't really help to understand and learn, at least for the average people. People who maybe want to understand why the driver they wrote broke with firmware update ( happened on some Apple laptop because apple updated something that broke video driver on linux ). Or why it work with some card and not some other, since they have a different firmware. People who wonder if their TPM chips is really under their control or not. Maybe a bunch of loonies. Maybe they are just ex sony customers screwed by their vendor, or people who had 1984 on their Kindle before Amazon removed it. Or simply people that want to know what was fixed for their hardware. ( https://admin.fedoraproject.org/updates/F14/FEDORA-2010-18594 ). Or just want to avoid security issues ( https://events.ccc.de/congress/2010/Fahrplan/track/Hacking/4174.en.html ). Or avoid waiting 5 minutes delay when booting a server for likely no good reason. Or people that have trouble because the lack of free software in their area prevent them from doing their work as security researcher, as demonstrated by the project Osmocombb ( http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/ ). But, yes maybe if we remove some security researchers, some cluster admins, some people that would prefer to not be screwed by vendor, some kernel developpers, some impatient sysadmins, some students, some coders and RMS, there is no one who question it. -- Michael Scherer
Re: [Mageia-dev] qt3-devel needed for Trinitydesktop (KDE 3.5 successor)
Romain d'Alverny a écrit : On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 11:38, Tux99 wrote: Also is there an official rule somewhere that specifies: "because we don't want to have software built on a deprecated library in the repository" or is this simply an arbitrary rule that restricts freedoms of users and other packagers? Nothing is always written down on paper. Saying it's arbitrary because it comes out of packagers' experience is a tad extreme. Saying that "restricts freedoms of users" is clearly excessive here. Again, it's not as if it was a closed product: users can open the box and package stuff too (ah yes, it's not dead obvious to do so, but that's something we can aim to improve in the coming years). What will come out of Mageia, in June, won't satisfy everyone. Choices will have been done. A choice is arbitrary, always. It always says no to something. Implying that this would "restrict freedoms of users" would be laughable at best, offensive at worst, especially since this is an open source project. That's not to say that people will just have to help themselves, we expect to make something cool and useful, but we're not going to say "yes!" to everything and everyone either. In the early days a 'contrib' repo was suggested for not officially supported packages (I was for that idea too), this would be a good situation where a 'contrib' repo would solve this matter for everyone. Please open a bug for that if you think it's worth discussing it again. Romain Isn't there a repo just for testing packages ? (Maybe "people" or "software" ?) Maybe if they use that they'll feel a little less "demotivated". And maybe once their project is stable, qt3-devel could be considered just for building their package, until they switch to qt4 ? Just some ideas ... -- André
Re: [Mageia-dev] Fwd: [RPM] cauldron core/updates_testing clementine-0.6-5.mga1
Op vrijdag 25 maart 2011 21:25:25 schreef Thomas Backlund: > Ahmad Samir skrev 25.3.2011 20:59: > > The repo name in installations is "Core Testing", so the inconsistency > > is not fully my fault :) > > Not anymore... > > I fixed the naming 12 days ago when I added media.cfg to svn. > > But since you already have the medias added, you have the old name. > > -- > Thomas a bit OT, but since then i had failures for core/updates, tainted/updates, non-free/updates repositories getting the hdlist. not sure if it's a bug, or something that's related to my own setup
Re: [Mageia-dev] lxde under gdm ?
I had this issue too, yesterday after my daily upgrade. I cleant my ~/.config dir and all went fine again. David 2011/3/26 Ahmad Samir : > On 26 March 2011 00:13, Frank Griffin wrote: >> This is probably an incredibly stupid question, but is LXDE expected to work >> in conjunction with GDM ? >> >> I thought I'd give LXDE a try, but both from my usual ID and a new ID, it >> crashes X (or appears to) and flips right back to the DM screen. >> >> I know there are LXDE advocates here, so before I enter a bug report I >> thought I'd ask the obvious question. >> > > Weird... it worked IIRC. I'll test again with latest cauldron updates. > > -- > Ahmad Samir >
