Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
Quote: Fabrice Facorat wrote on Tue, 05 October 2010 13:30 > > That's a nop argument. Rewriting from scratch needs more manpower > > whatever is the number of tools... > > sure, but if more people are able to contribute, this could counter > balanced this fact . Well, Fabrice you should know how FOSS works. Demanding leads nowhere. If you want the draktools in python or C or whatever, start writing them and put your source on some svn/git repo. If others are interested they will join you and eventually your codebase will be good enough to replace the current one. That's how FOSS works. Telling others to do it, doesn't work.
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
Le mardi 05 octobre 2010 à 13:30 +0200, Fabrice Facorat a écrit : > 2010/10/5 Thierry Vignaud : > > On 3 October 2010 09:58, Fabrice Facorat wrote: > >> sure. But do Mandriva still have enough man power to maintain so many > >> tools ? > > > > That's a nop argument. Rewriting from scratch needs more manpower > > whatever is the number of tools... > > sure, but if more people are able to contribute, this could counter > balanced this fact . I didn't see a flood of contributions on msec ( written in python ) or the initscripts ( written in bash ). Nor much contribution on the kenobi web interface ( written in php ). So there is no evidence of "more people will contribute", quite the contrary. -- Michael Scherer
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
2010/10/5 Thierry Vignaud : > On 3 October 2010 09:58, Fabrice Facorat wrote: >>> Specifying what exactly is wrong is an essential issue here: >>> - Just "perl is hard to understand" isn't a problem for users, users >>> don't code it. >> >> but for dev and potential contributor this increase the antry barrier >> for contribution > > No. You are just moving the entry barrier against another dev group > (those who would know perl but not eg C). > And because of the manual memory management of the language you're > promoting, you would both: > - increase the actual barrier entry (need to understand how to > properly do mem management, ...) > - introduce new classes of bugs (and among them a lot of security ones > (overwriting stack and the like) php/java have memory management. Python ( which syntax is closer to C than perl ) also have memory management. The same for mono ( .Net ), vala, ... >> sure. But do Mandriva still have enough man power to maintain so many tools ? > > That's a nop argument. Rewriting from scratch needs more manpower > whatever is the number of tools... sure, but if more people are able to contribute, this could counter balanced this fact . -- Close the World, Open the Net http://www.linux-wizard.net
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
On 3 October 2010 09:58, Fabrice Facorat wrote: >> Specifying what exactly is wrong is an essential issue here: >> - Just "perl is hard to understand" isn't a problem for users, users >> don't code it. > > but for dev and potential contributor this increase the antry barrier > for contribution No. You are just moving the entry barrier against another dev group (those who would know perl but not eg C). And because of the manual memory management of the language you're promoting, you would both: - increase the actual barrier entry (need to understand how to properly do mem management, ...) - introduce new classes of bugs (and among them a lot of security ones (overwriting stack and the like) >> - Not being used by other distros is again not a problem, each distro >> has native tools that no other distros use (as misc said a couple of >> emails up) > > sure. But do Mandriva still have enough man power to maintain so many tools ? That's a nop argument. Rewriting from scratch needs more manpower whatever is the number of tools...
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
On 3 October 2010 09:58, Fabrice Facorat wrote: > 2010/10/2 Ahmad Samir : >> On 2 October 2010 21:50, Fabrice Facorat wrote: >>> Le 2 octobre 2010 17:52, Nicolas Lécureuil a >>> écrit : 2010/10/2 Fabrice Facorat > > 2010/10/1 Sinner from the Prairy : > > Fabrice Facorat wrote: >>> > > Mandriva tries that, with look'n'feel consistent on MCC, KDE and Gnome. > > draketools work on TUI or GUI. They work well. > > some tools does not work correctly however and are buggy > Better is to fix them instead of rewrite all. >>> >>> you know, when something have been broken for more than 2 years ... at >>> some point you may think that the best would be to just change it ;-) >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Close the World, Open the Net >>> http://www.linux-wizard.net >>> >> >> Specifying what exactly is wrong is an essential issue here: >> - Just "perl is hard to understand" isn't a problem for users, users >> don't code it. > > but for dev and potential contributor this increase the antry barrier > for contribution > >> - Not being used by other distros is again not a problem, each distro >> has native tools that no other distros use (as misc said a couple of >> emails up) > > sure. But do Mandriva still have enough man power to maintain so many tools ? > (Who's talking about Mandriva?) About man power, if a distro doesn't have enough man power to maintain so many tool, do you think it'll have enough man power to port them to another language so that others can contribute / "lower the entry barrier"? or even integrate other tools in the distro? >> So, no, I wouldn't throw my old box out the window because if it works >> even if it's slow, until I buy a new box / can afford a new box. >> drakxtools work, until a viable alternative, if needed at all, is >> provided they should be kept. > > I do say that we should do a complete analysis of all the mandriva > tools ( drakxtools, drakwizard, ... ), and have the decision on a > per-tool basis > > -- > Close the World, Open the Net > http://www.linux-wizard.net > Sure. (Do you proposed to participate in that evaluation?). -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
On Sun, 3 Oct 2010 12:12:06 +0200 (CEST), Tux99 wrote about Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github: >It would be great if we could have Rafael Garcia-Suarez contributing to >Mageia. If that is a good idea (I'm not saying it isn't!), than I can think of some other names: Pixel, Guillaume Cottenceau etc. etc. But if they have any interest in Linux they will soon enough learn about Mageia and find their way here if they care to Ciao, =Dick Gevers=
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
Quote: Dimitrios Glentadakis wrote on Sun, 03 October 2010 10:18 > > An old but interresting about interview for Mandriva's tools in perl: > http://www.perl.com/pub/2005/02/24/mandrakelinux.html Thanks for posting this that interview is very interesting. It would be great if we could have Rafael Garcia-Suarez contributing to Mageia. Does anyone know what he does these days? This quote is particularly interesting: "Rafael: Not all tools were always written in Perl. However using consistently a same language allows to share and reuse libraries across all tools, be it the perl/rpmlib bindings or custom graphical toolboxes. Thus, for example, the OS installer shares code with urpmi and rpmdrake. A scripting language was preferred because of rapidity of development and ease of debug -- attempts at writing rpmdrake in C were painful, although that was before I was hired by Mandrakesoft. Perl was a natural choice since there were already very good in-house skills for it."
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
An old but interresting about interview for Mandriva's tools in perl: http://www.perl.com/pub/2005/02/24/mandrakelinux.html -- Dimitrios Glentadakis
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
2010/10/2 Ahmad Samir : > On 2 October 2010 21:50, Fabrice Facorat wrote: >> Le 2 octobre 2010 17:52, Nicolas Lécureuil a >> écrit : >>> >>> >>> 2010/10/2 Fabrice Facorat 2010/10/1 Sinner from the Prairy : > Fabrice Facorat wrote: >> > Mandriva tries that, with look'n'feel consistent on MCC, KDE and Gnome. > draketools work on TUI or GUI. They work well. some tools does not work correctly however and are buggy >>> >>> Better is to fix them instead of rewrite all. >> >> you know, when something have been broken for more than 2 years ... at >> some point you may think that the best would be to just change it ;-) >> >> >> >> -- >> Close the World, Open the Net >> http://www.linux-wizard.net >> > > Specifying what exactly is wrong is an essential issue here: > - Just "perl is hard to understand" isn't a problem for users, users > don't code it. but for dev and potential contributor this increase the antry barrier for contribution > - Not being used by other distros is again not a problem, each distro > has native tools that no other distros use (as misc said a couple of > emails up) sure. But do Mandriva still have enough man power to maintain so many tools ? > So, no, I wouldn't throw my old box out the window because if it works > even if it's slow, until I buy a new box / can afford a new box. > drakxtools work, until a viable alternative, if needed at all, is > provided they should be kept. I do say that we should do a complete analysis of all the mandriva tools ( drakxtools, drakwizard, ... ), and have the decision on a per-tool basis -- Close the World, Open the Net http://www.linux-wizard.net
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
On 2 October 2010 21:50, Fabrice Facorat wrote: > Le 2 octobre 2010 17:52, Nicolas Lécureuil a > écrit : >> >> >> 2010/10/2 Fabrice Facorat >>> >>> 2010/10/1 Sinner from the Prairy : >>> > Fabrice Facorat wrote: > >>> > Mandriva tries that, with look'n'feel consistent on MCC, KDE and Gnome. >>> > draketools work on TUI or GUI. They work well. >>> >>> some tools does not work correctly however and are buggy >>> >> >> Better is to fix them instead of rewrite all. > > you know, when something have been broken for more than 2 years ... at > some point you may think that the best would be to just change it ;-) > > > > -- > Close the World, Open the Net > http://www.linux-wizard.net > Specifying what exactly is wrong is an essential issue here: - Just "perl is hard to understand" isn't a problem for users, users don't code it. - Not being used by other distros is again not a problem, each distro has native tools that no other distros use (as misc said a couple of emails up) So, no, I wouldn't throw my old box out the window because if it works even if it's slow, until I buy a new box / can afford a new box. drakxtools work, until a viable alternative, if needed at all, is provided they should be kept. -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
Le 2 octobre 2010 17:52, Nicolas Lécureuil a écrit : > > > 2010/10/2 Fabrice Facorat >> >> 2010/10/1 Sinner from the Prairy : >> > Fabrice Facorat wrote: >> > Mandriva tries that, with look'n'feel consistent on MCC, KDE and Gnome. >> > draketools work on TUI or GUI. They work well. >> >> some tools does not work correctly however and are buggy >> > > Better is to fix them instead of rewrite all. you know, when something have been broken for more than 2 years ... at some point you may think that the best would be to just change it ;-) -- Close the World, Open the Net http://www.linux-wizard.net
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
2010/10/2 Fabrice Facorat > 2010/10/1 Sinner from the Prairy : > > Fabrice Facorat wrote: > > > > But the ones they have: work great, are integrated with the rest of the > > ecosystem, are user-friendly and they are aesthetically pleasant. > > > > By focusing on 90% of specs and getting them to be 95% perfect, instead > of > > having 100% of specs and getting them to be just 50% workable, regular > > people (95% of the population) like their products. > > you're 100% right > > > Apple's approach mimics the Unix philosophy (every small tool covers a > task > > extremely well, and integrates with the rest of the Unix system): every > > single technical bullet point included does a task extremely well with > the > > rest of the tools and look'n'feel. > > > > Mandriva tries that, with look'n'feel consistent on MCC, KDE and Gnome. > > draketools work on TUI or GUI. They work well. > > some tools does not work correctly however and are buggy > > Better is to fix them instead of rewrite all.
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
2010/10/1 Sinner from the Prairy : > Fabrice Facorat wrote: > But the ones they have: work great, are integrated with the rest of the > ecosystem, are user-friendly and they are aesthetically pleasant. > > By focusing on 90% of specs and getting them to be 95% perfect, instead of > having 100% of specs and getting them to be just 50% workable, regular > people (95% of the population) like their products. you're 100% right > Apple's approach mimics the Unix philosophy (every small tool covers a task > extremely well, and integrates with the rest of the Unix system): every > single technical bullet point included does a task extremely well with the > rest of the tools and look'n'feel. > > Mandriva tries that, with look'n'feel consistent on MCC, KDE and Gnome. > draketools work on TUI or GUI. They work well. some tools does not work correctly however and are buggy > IMHO, Mageia should improve on Mandriva, not try to get just "bullet points" > on what our distro does. > > Let's pick our battles, go the Unix way, make sure what Mageia does, it does > very well. And as Linux is Linux is Linux is Linux, it will do everything > else as well (and the kitchen sink). +1 -- Close the World, Open the Net http://www.linux-wizard.net
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Sinner from the Prairy < sinnerb...@gmail.com> wrote: > Fabrice Facorat wrote: > > > 2010/10/1 Romain d'Alverny > > : > (...) > >> Both (substance, appearance) are crucial. If you only consider one > >> without balancing, making it consistent with the other, you're not > >> going down the right path. The interface, the whole experience with it > >> is the product. > > > > sure, but appearance is the key point. > > > > Archos is a good example of what we should not do ... > > > > I'm still amazed by the technicals limits of the iPhone, and how > > people can still want to buy them ... same for iPod ... > > > > iPod : no mp3, no FM radio, no USB mass storage support > > iPhone : no standard visio, no ability to create without iTunes or > > third party tools photo albums, less capable facebook integration, no > > FM radio, no flash, and so on ... > > iProducts don't have all the bullet points, all the technical specs that an > UberGeek would like. > > But the ones they have: work great, are integrated with the rest of the > ecosystem, are user-friendly and they are aesthetically pleasant. > > By focusing on 90% of specs and getting them to be 95% perfect, instead of > having 100% of specs and getting them to be just 50% workable, regular > people (95% of the population) like their products. > > Apple's approach mimics the Unix philosophy (every small tool covers a task > extremely well, and integrates with the rest of the Unix system): every > single technical bullet point included does a task extremely well with the > rest of the tools and look'n'feel. > > Mandriva tries that, with look'n'feel consistent on MCC, KDE and Gnome. > draketools work on TUI or GUI. They work well. > > IMHO, Mageia should improve on Mandriva, not try to get just "bullet > points" > on what our distro does. > > Let's pick our battles, go the Unix way, make sure what Mageia does, it > does > very well. And as Linux is Linux is Linux is Linux, it will do everything > else as well (and the kitchen sink). > > > Salut, > Sinner > > IMHO, a home user would have one major DE, KDE or Gnome or other. I think it is unlikely to change it (maybe once in 10 years). The key in appearance is to have a nice aspect in each DE rather be the same look in Gnome or KDE or other. I guess that each environment will fit some user's taste in its native look. The Drake tools must be cross DE and consistent. Mac OS is an unix derivative. I love their look and ergonomy. They have a serious team of ergonomists and designers. This is what a Linux distro needs to be successful. i.e. Mageia. The IMHO, Apple products are too expensive, a regular PC at the same performance and of a acceptable quality offers the same for a half of the price. And you could renew it faster for the same money. Their apps are brilliant from usability point of view and very good looking. They focus on a very limited hardware in variety. This is their advantage. Their hardware is also the best in quality (this is why they cost so much also). I prefer open source though.
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
Le 2010-10-01 09:20, Romain d'Alverny a écrit : On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 15:15, Fabrice Facorat wrote: 2010/10/1 Tux99: Substance counts a lot more than appearance to me. again you're somewhat wrong iPod and iPhones are inferirors products technically speaking, but they have better appearance ( good marketing, which is about appearance ) and so are successful. Appearance is not their only reason to be successful at this time. Both (substance, appearance) are crucial. If you only consider one without balancing, making it consistent with the other, you're not going down the right path. The interface, the whole experience with it is the product. Romain And here again, another tech article mentioning the draktools that has made Mandriva so user friendly. http://www.ghabuntu.com/2010/09/corporations-and-you-whos-who-in-open_1550.html Cheers Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 21:30, Sinner from the Prairy wrote: > Fabrice Facorat wrote: > >> I'm still amazed by the technicals limits of the iPhone, and how >> people can still want to buy them ... same for iPod ... >> >> iPod : no mp3, no FM radio, no USB mass storage support >> iPhone : no standard visio, no ability to create without iTunes or >> third party tools photo albums, less capable facebook integration, no >> FM radio, no flash, and so on ... > > iProducts don't have all the bullet points, all the technical specs that an > UberGeek would like. > > But the ones they have: work great, are integrated with the rest of the > ecosystem, are user-friendly and they are aesthetically pleasant. And (and that's an important bit to differentiate when entering a new market or pushing a new product revision): they almost never feature-match existing potentially competing products on the market. By doing so, they prevent customers to compare their products with the competition feature against feature. So comparison and choice happens on something else than the common feature set you would expect for a industry-standard product; it happens on something they are better at than the competition, be it a set of innovating/differentiating features or design. Romain
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 8:20 AM, Samuel Verschelde wrote: > > I don't want an iPod or an iPhone. > I do but they're so expensive :P -- Juancho
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
Fabrice Facorat wrote: > 2010/10/1 Romain d'Alverny > : (...) >> Both (substance, appearance) are crucial. If you only consider one >> without balancing, making it consistent with the other, you're not >> going down the right path. The interface, the whole experience with it >> is the product. > > sure, but appearance is the key point. > > Archos is a good example of what we should not do ... > > I'm still amazed by the technicals limits of the iPhone, and how > people can still want to buy them ... same for iPod ... > > iPod : no mp3, no FM radio, no USB mass storage support > iPhone : no standard visio, no ability to create without iTunes or > third party tools photo albums, less capable facebook integration, no > FM radio, no flash, and so on ... iProducts don't have all the bullet points, all the technical specs that an UberGeek would like. But the ones they have: work great, are integrated with the rest of the ecosystem, are user-friendly and they are aesthetically pleasant. By focusing on 90% of specs and getting them to be 95% perfect, instead of having 100% of specs and getting them to be just 50% workable, regular people (95% of the population) like their products. Apple's approach mimics the Unix philosophy (every small tool covers a task extremely well, and integrates with the rest of the Unix system): every single technical bullet point included does a task extremely well with the rest of the tools and look'n'feel. Mandriva tries that, with look'n'feel consistent on MCC, KDE and Gnome. draketools work on TUI or GUI. They work well. IMHO, Mageia should improve on Mandriva, not try to get just "bullet points" on what our distro does. Let's pick our battles, go the Unix way, make sure what Mageia does, it does very well. And as Linux is Linux is Linux is Linux, it will do everything else as well (and the kitchen sink). Salut, Sinner
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
2010/10/1 Thierry Vignaud > On 1 October 2010 12:52, Olivier Blin wrote: > > But actually, just moving to git could make contributions easier, > > because of the ability for developpers to commit locally, and push > > incremental patchsets. > > It's easier for us developers but more difficult for translators that > learned to use SVN (which was easy for them to swtich from CVS since > the commands were similar) > Well, as KDE experience shows, SVN and Git are not incompatible, i.e. you can have SVN for translators, even if some development are done in Git. And, second, if we could use e.g. Transifex, then underlying VCS is mostly irrelevant to the translators (though experienced ones who have proper permissions could also interact directly with underlying VCS, be it SVN or Git, if needed). Marek Laane
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 09:43, Olivier Blin wrote: > Thierry Vignaud writes: > >> On 1 October 2010 12:52, Olivier Blin wrote: >>> But actually, just moving to git could make contributions easier, >>> because of the ability for developpers to commit locally, and push >>> incremental patchsets. >> >> It's easier for us developers but more difficult for translators that >> learned to use SVN (which was easy for them to swtich from CVS since >> the commands were similar) > > Translators should not even have to see the underlying VCS, it's > probably easier with something like transifex or pootle > A good GIT place is Gitorious. A lot of software is developed there, like stuff for openSUSE, Qt, etc -- later, Robert Xu
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
Thierry Vignaud writes: > On 1 October 2010 12:52, Olivier Blin wrote: >> But actually, just moving to git could make contributions easier, >> because of the ability for developpers to commit locally, and push >> incremental patchsets. > > It's easier for us developers but more difficult for translators that > learned to use SVN (which was easy for them to swtich from CVS since > the commands were similar) Translators should not even have to see the underlying VCS, it's probably easier with something like transifex or pootle -- Olivier Blin - blino
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
2010/10/1 Samuel Verschelde : > > Le vendredi 1 octobre 2010 15:15:26, Fabrice Facorat a écrit : >> iPod and iPhones are inferirors products technically speaking, but >> they have better appearance ( good marketing, which is about >> appearance ) and so are successful. >> > > I don't want an iPod or an iPhone. so do I. But except if you are living in an isolated country, you will noticed that most "normal/non tech" people around you want them -- Close the World, Open the Net http://www.linux-wizard.net
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
2010/10/1 Romain d'Alverny : > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 15:15, Fabrice Facorat > wrote: >> 2010/10/1 Tux99 : >>> Substance counts a lot more than appearance to me. >> >> again you're somewhat wrong >> >> iPod and iPhones are inferirors products technically speaking, but >> they have better appearance ( good marketing, which is about >> appearance ) and so are successful. > > Appearance is not their only reason to be successful at this time. > > Both (substance, appearance) are crucial. If you only consider one > without balancing, making it consistent with the other, you're not > going down the right path. The interface, the whole experience with it > is the product. sure, but appearance is the key point. Archos is a good example of what we should not do ... I'm still amazed by the technicals limits of the iPhone, and how people can still want to buy them ... same for iPod ... iPod : no mp3, no FM radio, no USB mass storage support iPhone : no standard visio, no ability to create without iTunes or third party tools photo albums, less capable facebook integration, no FM radio, no flash, and so on ... -- Close the World, Open the Net http://www.linux-wizard.net
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 15:15, Fabrice Facorat wrote: > 2010/10/1 Tux99 : >> Substance counts a lot more than appearance to me. > > again you're somewhat wrong > > iPod and iPhones are inferirors products technically speaking, but > they have better appearance ( good marketing, which is about > appearance ) and so are successful. Appearance is not their only reason to be successful at this time. Both (substance, appearance) are crucial. If you only consider one without balancing, making it consistent with the other, you're not going down the right path. The interface, the whole experience with it is the product. Romain
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
Le vendredi 1 octobre 2010 15:15:26, Fabrice Facorat a écrit : > iPod and iPhones are inferirors products technically speaking, but > they have better appearance ( good marketing, which is about > appearance ) and so are successful. > I don't want an iPod or an iPhone.
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
2010/10/1 Tux99 : > On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Fabrice Facorat wrote: > >> This is about making some decisions about some tools. Some of the >> Mandriva tools have outdate UI, cluttered UI and even are sometimes >> buggy. >> The situation persists since many years already, so at some point we >> should ask ourself : are we going to rewrite them, notably the UI, to >> make them be more 2010, or should we use another tool with another >> GUI. > > Personally I don't see anything wrong with the GUI of the draktools. there's many things wrong. Just try Wndows 7 or Windows 2008 R2 tools http://www.win2008r2workstation.com/win2008r2/themes http://learn.iis.net/page.aspx/29/installing-iis-7-on-windows-server-2008-or-windows-server-2008-r2/ http://www.verboon.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/2010061520h01_291.png http://4sysops.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/windows-server-2008-r2-bpa.png > If imrpoving them means to rewrite them from scratch or replace them > with inferior tools from other distros, then that would be a big effort > and/or step backwards just for the estetics. > > Substance counts a lot more than appearance to me. again you're somewhat wrong iPod and iPhones are inferirors products technically speaking, but they have better appearance ( good marketing, which is about appearance ) and so are successful. -- Close the World, Open the Net http://www.linux-wizard.net
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
On 1 October 2010 12:52, Olivier Blin wrote: > But actually, just moving to git could make contributions easier, > because of the ability for developpers to commit locally, and push > incremental patchsets. It's easier for us developers but more difficult for translators that learned to use SVN (which was easy for them to swtich from CVS since the commands were similar)
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
> Substance counts a lot more than appearance to me. Of course, but we must not be "closed minds". Yes, maybe from the developers POV or from advanced user POV or some "geek" POV, the appearance isn't too important. But common people (and my self) like "pretty things". Even when the eye-candy isn't related with if distro "works fine", why we should be ugly? Why can't we have pretty tools that looks and works nice? You think that MacOS is the "coolest" OS just because it's unix or because it works fine? No. People (the common people like some one's sister) love it because it's beautiful, looks great and they can tell friends "look at my screen... nice! I'm cool because I have a Mac!" If the only important thing is being unix and working fine, why Mac users don't use Solaris? Since I'm with Linux / Mandriva I remember talks about how slow is Perl and how slow are MDV tools and why not to use some better programing language (I think someone said "C" once?). So, if someone says "we must change something to be better", please, don't say "NO" in the beginning without any chance. IMHO that we're in a special moment. A moment where we must look the brightside of the situation: we're starting. This is the moment when we must think and evaluate in the most crazy ideas, the most radical ideas. Because once you started to roll, changes must be made one bit at the time. But if we didn't start, we can say "this isn't useful anymore; let's change it / rewrite it / leave it forever". We're forking MDV, yes. But MDV shouldn't be seen as some kind of "sanctuary" where "things can't be touched" (not even the "holly" MCC). Personally, I joined Mageia because I believe we can make things better than Mandriva did. I won't look to the past. I want to look to the future. I'm not afraid of changes. Cheers! Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980)
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
P.S: cc'ing in both cooker and mageia lists is not a good idea as many people are not on both lists so the discussion will just split in two Ooops, Tux99, it also looks like your post has broken the thread on the dev side. The thread probably best belongs on the dev mailist. Marc Oops again, I thought I was responding on the dev mailist side. How funny is that? Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
Le 2010-10-01 07:23, Tux99 a écrit : On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Fabrice Facorat wrote: This is about making some decisions about some tools. Some of the Mandriva tools have outdate UI, cluttered UI and even are sometimes buggy. The situation persists since many years already, so at some point we should ask ourself : are we going to rewrite them, notably the UI, to make them be more 2010, or should we use another tool with another GUI. Personally I don't see anything wrong with the GUI of the draktools. If imrpoving them means to rewrite them from scratch or replace them with inferior tools from other distros, then that would be a big effort and/or step backwards just for the estetics. Substance counts a lot more than appearance to me. P.S: cc'ing in both cooker and mageia lists is not a good idea as many people are not on both lists so the discussion will just split in two Ooops, Tux99, it also looks like your post has broken the thread on the dev side. The thread probably best belongs on the dev mailist. Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
Le vendredi 01 octobre 2010 à 12:52 +0200, Olivier Blin a écrit : > Fabrice Facorat writes: > > > 1. host Mandriva tools on github or code.google.com. This will ease > > fork maintenance and tracking, to contribute back ( without having to > > have a Mandriva account ) > > Why host them externally? > A self-hosted "forge" is probably better. Yup, and I can only add a link http://mako.cc/writing/hill-free_tools.html > But actually, just moving to git could make contributions easier, > because of the ability for developpers to commit locally, and push > incremental patchsets. I would be in favor of 1 git repository for 1 software, even if I didn't see people complaining that svn prevented them to provides patches :) On the infrastructure side, it was also proposed to look at gitorious for this. Is it packaged in mandriva ? ( if not, maybe that would be a good way to help ). -- Michael Scherer
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Fabrice Facorat wrote: > This is about making some decisions about some tools. Some of the > Mandriva tools have outdate UI, cluttered UI and even are sometimes > buggy. > The situation persists since many years already, so at some point we > should ask ourself : are we going to rewrite them, notably the UI, to > make them be more 2010, or should we use another tool with another > GUI. Personally I don't see anything wrong with the GUI of the draktools. If imrpoving them means to rewrite them from scratch or replace them with inferior tools from other distros, then that would be a big effort and/or step backwards just for the estetics. Substance counts a lot more than appearance to me. P.S: cc'ing in both cooker and mageia lists is not a good idea as many people are not on both lists so the discussion will just split in two
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
2010/10/1 Marc Paré : > >> >> Somehow I have a feeling this thread will be a deja vu of the rpm vs. >> deb thread... >> >> > > Yes, the magic of mailists strikes again. And of course, the same arguments > will be restated again because people can not browse back to the previous > arguments. In a lot of cases, "Déjà vu" could almost be called the alias of > "Mailist". LOL this is not rpm vs deb or synaptic vs smart vs rpmdrake. This is about making some decisions about some tools. Some of the Mandriva tools have outdate UI, cluttered UI and even are sometimes buggy. The situation persists since many years already, so at some point we should ask ourself : are we going to rewrite them, notably the UI, to make them be more 2010, or should we use another tool with another GUI. -- Close the World, Open the Net http://www.linux-wizard.net
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
Somehow I have a feeling this thread will be a deja vu of the rpm vs. deb thread... Yes, the magic of mailists strikes again. And of course, the same arguments will be restated again because people can not browse back to the previous arguments. In a lot of cases, "Déjà vu" could almost be called the alias of "Mailist". LOL Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
Fri, 1 Oct 2010 12:38:31 +0200 письмо от Fabrice Facorat : > 3. A decision will have to be made concerning net_applet and NetworkManager I do not see why they should exclude each other. network-scripts/NM coexist in Fedora; Fedora ifup will request NM to start interface if required; if NM is not up it will do it itself. That is exactly what I'd love to see in the long run here. The real decision to be made is about network configuration files future. Currently they diverged far too far from what Fedora is using without offering any significant added value(I stay corrected; blino probably can say more here). Unification with Fedora initscripts would allow to reuse their infrastructure and seamlessly integrate NM. And of course we seem to be the only distribution to require network start before D-Bus. That needs to be decided upon as you cannot start NM without D-Bus but if NM is providing service we cannot start D-Bus without it ...
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Marc Paré wrote: > Just speaking from the "user" point of view. Let us not lose sight that > one of the strong points of Mandriva/Mageia is the use of the MCC. > Having all the controls under one title and well integrated is what > really distinguishes Mandriva from the other distros. Practically in all > of the news items that I have read of Mandriva, they mention the > powerful tools at the users' disposal to help in configure/maintain the > Mandriva distro, and this type of comment has been going on for years. > > I hope that Mageia would not stray from this tool. Whichever way the > devs decide to programme the tools from the back-en does not matter to > the user. How easily it is to configure/maintain the distro is what > counts to the user and it is quite a strong selling point. 100% agree, let's not destroy one of the most outstanding unique selling points of Mandriva/Mageia, the MCC. Don't fix what ain't broken, let's concentrate on improving it but certainly not on replacing it. Somehow I have a feeling this thread will be a deja vu of the rpm vs. deb thread...
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
Le 2010-10-01 06:38, Fabrice Facorat a écrit : I've been following closely all the Mandriva vs Mageia story. I found it unfortunate that we have to come to this way, but I guess there's a serious fracture between Mandriva and part of its community. We have no choice except to cope with this and try to do our best to allow this unfortunate situation to found a sensible solution in the future. As we know, one of the Mandriva strenght are the Mandriva tools, however Mandriva tools have some issues : - they are written in perl. Sorry for perl dev, but I do still think that perl is harder to understand than C-like based syntax langages. However we must admit that we are not going to rewrite all the Mandriva tools ;-) However better documentation ( PerlDoc tags ) could help a little. - Mandriva tools are not used by others distributions ( except PCLinuxOS, United Linux, and ... Mageia ) and so have few external contributions : They notably lack visibility. I do think also that Mandriva will have to use its ressources in an efficient way. Here aree my proposals, feel free to discuss : 1. host Mandriva tools on github or code.google.com. This will ease fork maintenance and tracking, to contribute back ( without having to have a Mandriva account ) 2. Make some decisions about the tools we should keep, and the ones we should ... trash. For example we did replace printerdrake with system-config-printer ( python ), and msec have been rewritten ( python ). Whereas I do think that system-config-printer is way buggier than printerdrake, I guess that at some points, we will have to do this more and more : replace some Mandriva tools with for example some Fedora ones. Please note however that this bring its own issues : python vs perl, and the integration with the rest of Mandriva infrastructure 3. A decision will have to be made concerning net_applet and NetworkManager 4. Whereas I do love rpmdrake, I do think also that something will have to be done about it as its UI is clearly outdated and not on par with the competition : - Ubuntu software center : http://seilo.geekyogre.com/2010/09/software-center-with-a-dose-of-zeitgeist-and-maybe-teamgeist/ , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Software_Center , https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter - iTunes App Store : http://www.askdavetaylor.com/how_to_download_iphone_apps_from_apple_itunes_store.html , http://cybernetnews.com/download-iphone-firmware-20-itunes-77-app-store-and-more/ - Interesting discussion about PackageKit direction : http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/09/01/a-story-about-updates-and-people/ So we may have to completely rewrite rpmdrake UI or switch to packagekit with and urpmi backend. 5. Junior tasks contributions. I noticed while visiting the LibreOffice website. They have junior task for people willing to contribute to the codebase, and most of theses junior tasks consist to improve code clarity, fix comments. I guess that the same thing could be done with Mandriva tools, notably adding perldoc tags/comments. Last but not least, I know that on Mageia ML, there was a discussion about the people we should target. Here are some interesting reflexions : Sweet Caroline : http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/sweet-caroline/ fedoraproject.org redesign update : http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/09/03/fedoraproject-org-redesign-update/ You must be this tall to ride: __ : http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/10/01/you-must-be-this-tall-to-ride-__/ Thanks for your observations Fabrice. Just speaking from the "user" point of view. Let us not lose sight that one of the strong points of Mandriva/Mageia is the use of the MCC. Having all the controls under one title and well integrated is what really distinguishes Mandriva from the other distros. Practically in all of the news items that I have read of Mandriva, they mention the powerful tools at the users' disposal to help in configure/maintain the Mandriva distro, and this type of comment has been going on for years. I hope that Mageia would not stray from this tool. Whichever way the devs decide to programme the tools from the back-en does not matter to the user. How easily it is to configure/maintain the distro is what counts to the user and it is quite a strong selling point. When I help out people with their Mandriva setup and I tell them to go to their MCC (if they are not familiar with it, I usually say "You know, the blue sceen and red wrench thingy at the bottom of your monitor.", they are confortable in using it. The only thing that I find lacking for the MCC is the lack of immediate help. If a user has never used a section of MCC, they will normally abandon the use of that section. But if there were a help button that would explain, in a graphic way (either video or by slide show) the use of that section, then that would go a long way in helping out. I sincerely hope that the MCC (Mageia Contol Centre) will not be abandoned. Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
Fabrice Facorat writes: > 1. host Mandriva tools on github or code.google.com. This will ease > fork maintenance and tracking, to contribute back ( without having to > have a Mandriva account ) Why host them externally? A self-hosted "forge" is probably better. But actually, just moving to git could make contributions easier, because of the ability for developpers to commit locally, and push incremental patchsets. -- Olivier Blin - blino
[Mageia-dev] About Mandriva tools future : Host Mandriva tools on github
I've been following closely all the Mandriva vs Mageia story. I found it unfortunate that we have to come to this way, but I guess there's a serious fracture between Mandriva and part of its community. We have no choice except to cope with this and try to do our best to allow this unfortunate situation to found a sensible solution in the future. As we know, one of the Mandriva strenght are the Mandriva tools, however Mandriva tools have some issues : - they are written in perl. Sorry for perl dev, but I do still think that perl is harder to understand than C-like based syntax langages. However we must admit that we are not going to rewrite all the Mandriva tools ;-) However better documentation ( PerlDoc tags ) could help a little. - Mandriva tools are not used by others distributions ( except PCLinuxOS, United Linux, and ... Mageia ) and so have few external contributions : They notably lack visibility. I do think also that Mandriva will have to use its ressources in an efficient way. Here aree my proposals, feel free to discuss : 1. host Mandriva tools on github or code.google.com. This will ease fork maintenance and tracking, to contribute back ( without having to have a Mandriva account ) 2. Make some decisions about the tools we should keep, and the ones we should ... trash. For example we did replace printerdrake with system-config-printer ( python ), and msec have been rewritten ( python ). Whereas I do think that system-config-printer is way buggier than printerdrake, I guess that at some points, we will have to do this more and more : replace some Mandriva tools with for example some Fedora ones. Please note however that this bring its own issues : python vs perl, and the integration with the rest of Mandriva infrastructure 3. A decision will have to be made concerning net_applet and NetworkManager 4. Whereas I do love rpmdrake, I do think also that something will have to be done about it as its UI is clearly outdated and not on par with the competition : - Ubuntu software center : http://seilo.geekyogre.com/2010/09/software-center-with-a-dose-of-zeitgeist-and-maybe-teamgeist/ , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu_Software_Center , https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SoftwareCenter - iTunes App Store : http://www.askdavetaylor.com/how_to_download_iphone_apps_from_apple_itunes_store.html , http://cybernetnews.com/download-iphone-firmware-20-itunes-77-app-store-and-more/ - Interesting discussion about PackageKit direction : http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/09/01/a-story-about-updates-and-people/ So we may have to completely rewrite rpmdrake UI or switch to packagekit with and urpmi backend. 5. Junior tasks contributions. I noticed while visiting the LibreOffice website. They have junior task for people willing to contribute to the codebase, and most of theses junior tasks consist to improve code clarity, fix comments. I guess that the same thing could be done with Mandriva tools, notably adding perldoc tags/comments. Last but not least, I know that on Mageia ML, there was a discussion about the people we should target. Here are some interesting reflexions : Sweet Caroline : http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/09/02/sweet-caroline/ fedoraproject.org redesign update : http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/09/03/fedoraproject-org-redesign-update/ You must be this tall to ride: __ : http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/10/01/you-must-be-this-tall-to-ride-__/ -- Close the World, Open the Net http://www.linux-wizard.net
