Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 18:32 -0400, sorteal a écrit : > I'm curious if Chromium has been considered as the default browser? > With KDE seeming to be the DE of choice and Firefox having a less than > stellar record with KDE integration I find Chromium to be an appealing > alternative to Firefox. Just curious. Chromium is a pain to properly package, imho. -- Michael Scherer ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 18:34, Michael Scherer wrote: > Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 18:32 -0400, sorteal a écrit : >> I'm curious if Chromium has been considered as the default browser? >> With KDE seeming to be the DE of choice and Firefox having a less than >> stellar record with KDE integration I find Chromium to be an appealing >> alternative to Firefox. Just curious. > > Chromium is a pain to properly package, imho. > Some alternatives could include Epiphany for GTK desktops and ReKonq for KDE... While this mess is being sorted out. -- later, Robert Xu ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, sorteal wrote: > I'm curious if Chromium has been considered as the default browser? > With KDE seeming to be the DE of choice and Firefox having a less than > stellar record with KDE integration I find Chromium to be an appealing > alternative to Firefox. Just curious. I'd much prefer to keep Firefox as default, it is still much more popular than Chromium and since Google as a company is considered highly controversial because of their attitude to privacy, using Chromium as default would antagonize a part of our potential users. Also while Chromium is technically open source, in practice Google discourages community collaboration, see this blog entry from the Fedora Chromium packager: http://spot.livejournal.com/314645.html While we are at it, why don't we rather include AdblockPlus enabled by default with EasyList+EasyPrivacy filters for Firefox? Blocking off ads and tracking scripts makes Firefox a lot faster too! ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 04:07 +0200, Tux99 wrote: [...] > While we are at it, why don't we rather include AdblockPlus enabled by > default with EasyList+EasyPrivacy filters for Firefox? > Blocking off ads and tracking scripts makes Firefox a lot faster too! Possibly, but then you don't get the ads... which, like it or not, are funding an awful lot of Web sites. There's always the myth that Linux users have no money, and/or just want things without paying for them... Better to make AdBlock scripts easy to install (e.g. via MageiaControlCentre?), and maybe include them (so no download needed) but not enabled. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Liam R E Quin wrote: > Possibly, but then you don't get the ads... which, like it or not, are > funding an awful lot of Web sites. The business model of web site owners shouldn't be our concern, otherwise we should also stop using FOSS since it's all lost sales for proprietary software and we should stop reading news online since it hurts newspaper sales, etc. > There's always the myth that Linux users have no money, and/or just want > things without paying for them... It has nothing to do with money, it's about blocking annoying flashing ads, pop-overs, pop-unders, user-tracking scripts, etc. > Better to make AdBlock scripts easy to install (e.g. via > MageiaControlCentre?), and maybe include them (so no download needed) > but not enabled. Ok, we could keep it disabled by default, but it should be installed so that anyone can easily enable it, if desired. On the other hand we should keep the following two options in Firefox DISABLED by default, since they are nothing but Google tracking devices disguised as security features: Preferences>Security: - Tell me if the site I'm visiting is a suspected attack site - Tell me if the site I'm visiting is a suspected forgery With these two options enabled, Firefox contacts a Google DB for every site you visit, telling Google the site you are visiting (Google claims they don't use this info to track users, but given Google's attitude to privacy, I do not believe their claim at all). Also these two options are really meant to protect Windows users, on Linux they are fairly useless from a security POV.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 1 October 2010 04:47, Tux99 wrote: > On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Liam R E Quin wrote: > >> Possibly, but then you don't get the ads... which, like it or not, are >> funding an awful lot of Web sites. > > The business model of web site owners shouldn't be our concern, > otherwise we should also stop using FOSS since it's all lost sales for > proprietary software and we should stop reading news online since it > hurts newspaper sales, etc. > >> There's always the myth that Linux users have no money, and/or just want >> things without paying for them... > > It has nothing to do with money, it's about blocking annoying flashing > ads, pop-overs, pop-unders, user-tracking scripts, etc. > >> Better to make AdBlock scripts easy to install (e.g. via >> MageiaControlCentre?), and maybe include them (so no download needed) >> but not enabled. > > Ok, we could keep it disabled by default, but it should be installed so > that anyone can easily enable it, if desired. > > On the other hand we should keep the following two options in Firefox > DISABLED by default, since they are nothing but Google tracking devices > disguised as security features: > > Preferences>Security: > - Tell me if the site I'm visiting is a suspected attack site > - Tell me if the site I'm visiting is a suspected forgery > > With these two options enabled, Firefox contacts a Google DB for every > site you visit, telling Google the site you are visiting (Google > claims they don't use this info to track users, but given Google's > attitude to privacy, I do not believe their claim at all). > Also these two options are really meant to protect Windows users, on > Linux they are fairly useless from a security POV. > > A bit off-topic, but first you should answer pterjan's question here[1]: “Look at the code and show me a place where any URL is sent to Google.” [1] http://lists.mandriva.com/cooker/2010-08/msg00461.php -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Fri, 1 Oct 2010, Ahmad Samir wrote: > A bit off-topic, but first you should answer pterjan's question > here[1]: Look at the code and show me a place where any URL is sent > to Google. > > [1] http://lists.mandriva.com/cooker/2010-08/msg00461.php Well, given the size of the source code of Firefox and the fact that I'm not familiar with it, that would be like searching for a needle in a haystack. What I did though is read the specs of the protocol that implements this 'feature' and I must say that it's not entirely clear what information Firefox passes on to Google when contacting the Google 'safe-browsing' databse. The current version of the protocol seems very complicated to me, I'd say unnecessarily complicated, which is not what you would want from a potentially privacy-sensitive feature. ( http://code.google.com/p/google-safe-browsing/wiki/Protocolv2Spec ) The fact remains that when this feature is enabled, Firefox interacts with a Google service, without the user being aware of it. My main point is, any program (not just Firefox) that contacts a remote service (where it's not obvious for the user) should notify the user about this with a dialog box before doing so the first time, asking for the informed consent of the user. In fact this could be a strong unique selling point of Mageia, if we make sure that all Mageia packages are configured by default to respect the user's privacy and to always request consent from the user before connecting to remote services. A slogan could be: "Mageia the Linux distro that takes your privacy seriously" Drakrpm is a good example on how to do it correctly, since before setting up the list of mirrors it asks the user for consent to contact the Mandriva site to download the list of mirrors.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 21:27, Tux99 wrote: > What I did though is read the specs of the protocol that implements this > 'feature' and I must say that it's not entirely clear what information > Firefox passes on to Google when contacting the Google 'safe-browsing' > databse. The current version of the protocol seems very complicated to > me, I'd say unnecessarily complicated, which is not what you would want > from a potentially privacy-sensitive feature. Well the complexity of the protocol is to allow firefox to download only needed part of the blacklist, without sending the url to google and without downloading a huge list periodically. All the information passed by firefox to google is which chunk of the list it wants do download, this being determined by the beginning of the hash of the url. It would indeed be simpler to send the url.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
I love FireFox for its plethora of add-ons. I wouldn't give it up for any other browser, although it eats up a lot of memory.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Thu, 30 Sep 2010, Pascal Terjan wrote: > Well the complexity of the protocol is to allow firefox to download > only needed part of the blacklist, without sending the url to google > and without downloading a huge list periodically. > All the information passed by firefox to google is which chunk of the > list it wants do download, this being determined by the beginning of > the hash of the url. > It would indeed be simpler to send the url. Can you state as a fact that Google has no way to reproduce the url or at least the domain name of the site the user is visiting based on the information passed on by this Firefox feature to Google? I don't think this can be said with certainty, thanks to the complexity of the protocol. In any case, regardless what data gets passed on, I think we should follow the principle of making sure that apps only interact with remote services when the user is aware of it, i.e. INFORMED CONSENT, like I mentioned in the previous mail. Therefore any features that interact automatically with remote services without the informed consent of the user should be disabled by default. (the user is still free to enable them at any time, so we are not limiting the user in any way) The following article makes it very clear why this is always a good practice to follow: http://arstechnica.com/security/news/2010/09/some-android-apps-found-to-covertly-send-gps-data-to-advertisers.ars
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 1 October 2010 04:07, Tux99 wrote: > While we are at it, why don't we rather include AdblockPlus enabled by > default with EasyList+EasyPrivacy filters for Firefox? > Blocking off ads and tracking scripts makes Firefox a lot faster too! I've packaged this extension (in contribs) a long time ago so that not every user of a sytem has to install it in its own account. Of course you still have to subscribe to easylist.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
2010/10/1 Thierry Vignaud : > On 1 October 2010 04:07, Tux99 wrote: >> While we are at it, why don't we rather include AdblockPlus enabled by >> default with EasyList+EasyPrivacy filters for Firefox? >> Blocking off ads and tracking scripts makes Firefox a lot faster too! > > I've packaged this extension (in contribs) a long time ago so that not > every user of a sytem has to install it in its own account. > Of course you still have to subscribe to easylist. Which extionsion a user wants to instaall should be left to the user's decision. Make the install easy but do not install any extensions by default. I've never used those extensions, except the developper bar. Somebody told me to install Adblock and whatever, I did and FF became unstable but not one second faster. Maybe because I do not visit many sites with large ads and all that bling-bling stuff. Anyhow, as a rule do not add any stuff by default that the user ought to decide for himself, this is not Windows. We should not tell the user what he wants to do. wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Le jeudi 30 septembre 2010 à 22:18 -0400, Liam R E Quin a écrit : > On Fri, 2010-10-01 at 04:07 +0200, Tux99 wrote: > [...] > > While we are at it, why don't we rather include AdblockPlus enabled by > > default with EasyList+EasyPrivacy filters for Firefox? > > Blocking off ads and tracking scripts makes Firefox a lot faster too! > > Possibly, but then you don't get the ads... which, like it or not, are > funding an awful lot of Web sites. I always wondered why Microsoft didn't crush Google by forcing such settings in Internet Explorer some years ago. They could even have done worst, downloading but not showing and ask the choice to users on install time, and let advertisers know this fact ( which would have rendered all statistics useless, and therefor disrupted the market in a way that Google would no longer earn as much money ). Maybe I am more evil than Microsoft :( -- Michael Scherer
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 1 October 2010 10:44, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > Which extionsion a user wants to instaall should be left to the user's > decision. Make the install easy but do not install any extensions by > default. I've never used those extensions, except the developper bar. > Somebody told me to install Adblock and whatever, I did and FF became > unstable but not one second faster. > Maybe because I do not visit many sites with large ads and all that > bling-bling stuff. > > Anyhow, as a rule do not add any stuff by default that the user ought > to decide for himself, this is not Windows. We should not tell the > user what he wants to do. Then we shouldn't install neither firefox nor konqueror at all since that's a choice that the user ought to decide for himself... Installing the extension doesn't mean neither auto subscrubing nor being unable to disable it
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
2010/10/1 Michael Scherer : > > I always wondered why Microsoft didn't crush Google by forcing such > settings in Internet Explorer some years ago. They could even have done > worst, downloading but not showing and ask the choice to users on > install time, and let advertisers know this fact ( which would have > rendered all statistics useless, and therefor disrupted the market in a > way that Google would no longer earn as much money ). > > Maybe I am more evil than Microsoft :( No, I don't think so, although one never knows :) I think it's logical. The smaller you are the more you need to come up with sophisticated ideas to compete with the Big Ones. Microsoft grew too big too fast, then all they needed to compete was their sheer force. As an elephant does not need smart escape strategies like little animals or poison like small snakes. Imagine an elephant with a poisonous tooth (set aside that he is a vegetarian). Microsoft always had a blind spot for such things, they did not recognize the internet early enough and they did not recognize the ad business early enough. They are nothing more than a very large but dumb monster.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
2010/10/1 Thierry Vignaud : > On 1 October 2010 10:44, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >> Which extionsion a user wants to instaall should be left to the user's >> decision. Make the install easy but do not install any extensions by >> default. I've never used those extensions, except the developper bar. >> Somebody told me to install Adblock and whatever, I did and FF became >> unstable but not one second faster. >> Maybe because I do not visit many sites with large ads and all that >> bling-bling stuff. >> >> Anyhow, as a rule do not add any stuff by default that the user ought >> to decide for himself, this is not Windows. We should not tell the >> user what he wants to do. > > Then we shouldn't install neither firefox nor konqueror at all since > that's a choice that the user ought to decide for himself... C'mon, a browser is not the same as a browser extension. Of course there must be defaults. But installing browser extensions by default is too much "default" IMHO. Same as with mail clients. You should set a mail client by default but you should not add any extensions to this client by default. wobo
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
2010/10/1 Wolfgang Bornath : > 2010/10/1 Thierry Vignaud : >> On 1 October 2010 10:44, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >>> Which extionsion a user wants to instaall should be left to the user's >>> decision. Make the install easy but do not install any extensions by >>> default. I've never used those extensions, except the developper bar. >>> Somebody told me to install Adblock and whatever, I did and FF became >>> unstable but not one second faster. >>> Maybe because I do not visit many sites with large ads and all that >>> bling-bling stuff. >>> >>> Anyhow, as a rule do not add any stuff by default that the user ought >>> to decide for himself, this is not Windows. We should not tell the >>> user what he wants to do. >> >> Then we shouldn't install neither firefox nor konqueror at all since >> that's a choice that the user ought to decide for himself... > > C'mon, a browser is not the same as a browser extension. Of course > there must be defaults. But installing browser extensions by default > is too much "default" IMHO. Same as with mail clients. You should set > a mail client by default but you should not add any extensions to this > client by default. > > wobo > Please do not make any extension as default. Even do not paxckage extensions. A user should decide which extension he/she uses. Also, i don't understand why extensions packaged. Day by day extensions updated on upstream. So, packages left behind current versions. Btw, i noticed that Firefox installed in /usr/share/firefox-release-number. I don't know how buildsystem works but when ff updated all extensions must be updated for new install dir. Doesn't this behaviour brings extra workload?
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 1 October 2010 11:17, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > 2010/10/1 Thierry Vignaud : >> On 1 October 2010 10:44, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >>> Which extionsion a user wants to instaall should be left to the user's >>> decision. Make the install easy but do not install any extensions by >>> default. I've never used those extensions, except the developper bar. >>> Somebody told me to install Adblock and whatever, I did and FF became >>> unstable but not one second faster. >>> Maybe because I do not visit many sites with large ads and all that >>> bling-bling stuff. >>> >>> Anyhow, as a rule do not add any stuff by default that the user ought >>> to decide for himself, this is not Windows. We should not tell the >>> user what he wants to do. >> >> Then we shouldn't install neither firefox nor konqueror at all since >> that's a choice that the user ought to decide for himself... > > C'mon, a browser is not the same as a browser extension. Of course > there must be defaults. But installing browser extensions by default > is too much "default" IMHO. Same as with mail clients. You should set > a mail client by default but you should not add any extensions to this > client by default. > > wobo > Usually the more the extensions you have the heavier/more-ram/more-startup-time firefox gets (and the last time I used AdBlock Plus, about 10 months ago, it leaked memory...). Also it's not useful all over, I think I can do without it if I have noscript installed, (now what would you say if noscript is installed by default?). IMHO, I think no extra extensions should be installed by default, the user should make a choice of which ones he wants (and installing any extensions by default without the "user's consent" isn't ideal too, if it's going to impact the performance of Firefox). -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Le vendredi 01 octobre 2010 à 12:28 +0300, atilla ontas a écrit : > Please do not make any extension as default. Even do not paxckage > extensions. A user should decide which extension he/she uses. Also, i > don't understand why extensions packaged. Day by day extensions > updated on upstream. So, packages left behind current versions. Well, they are packaged for the same reason that others rpms : - unified installation with others packages, - can be automated ( ie, if I have 200 computers, do I really update each of them by hand ? ) - unified interface, ie, no need to search on 3 or 4 differents websites or software - installed systemwide and updated system wide - ability to know the version, and to ensure a know good version is used - checked by packagers ( ie, it should work with the distro browser ) If "there is update on upstream" is sufficient to not package something, then we shouldn't package anything ... -- Michael Scherer
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Usually the more the extensions you have the heavier/more-ram/more-startup-time firefox gets (and the last time I used AdBlock Plus, about 10 months ago, it leaked memory...). Also it's not useful all over, I think I can do without it if I have noscript installed, (now what would you say if noscript is installed by default?). IMHO, I think no extra extensions should be installed by default, the user should make a choice of which ones he wants (and installing any extensions by default without the "user's consent" isn't ideal too, if it's going to impact the performance of Firefox). I agree, I think the user should be in charge of the extensions. How many of us have heard people say that "Hey, I never installed the Yahoo! bar!" or "Hey, I never installed Safari!". Users are knowledgeable enough to make up their own mind on extensions. Browser use is generally a user specific preference. If Mageia is going to focus more on being a good KDE distro, then it should go along with the defaults with KDE -- Kmail/Konqueror. But, if Mageia is to decide on a "flagship" choice of browser, I think that most computer users these days know of Firefox and this would be a good/safe choice to use as a Mageia endorsed/default browser, but without any extensions pre-installed. The user can tailor his preferences later on depending on his/her browser choice. Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Michael Scherer wrote: > Chromium is a pain to properly package, imho. But then, it is extremely fast on my system, compared to FireFox. Salut, Sinner
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Liam R E Quin wrote: > Better to make AdBlock scripts easy to install (e.g. via > MageiaControlCentre?), and maybe include them (so no download needed) > but not enabled. I'd rather have FFox add-ons to be installed as in every other platform: through official FFox way. Salut, Sinenr
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Why not to use something like this? http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/02/19feb10ou2b4dsdvd.jpg MS implemented it at Europe because they forced to. We could do it to be more "democratic"? Cheers! Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
I must agree. If FF is going to be the default then addons should be done by the user. Although I still think a browser better suited to KDE would be a better choice. Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Sinner from the Prairy Sender: mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org Date: Fri, 01 Oct 2010 12:44:54 To: Reply-To: Mageia development mailing-list Subject: Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers Liam R E Quin wrote: > Better to make AdBlock scripts easy to install (e.g. via > MageiaControlCentre?), and maybe include them (so no download needed) > but not enabled. I'd rather have FFox add-ons to be installed as in every other platform: through official FFox way. Salut, Sinenr
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 10/1/2010 12:53 PM, Gustavo Giampaoli wrote: Why not to use something like this? http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/02/19feb10ou2b4dsdvd.jpg MS implemented it at Europe because they forced to. We could do it to be more "democratic"? Cheers! Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980) I like tavillo1980's idea here very much.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 1 October 2010 18:54, wrote: > > I must agree. If FF is going to be the default then addons should be done > by the user. Although I still think a browser better suited to KDE would > be a better choice. That's alreay what we do for years. We install a matching browser according to the choosen desktop. When the user choose KDE we default to konqueror else we default to firefox through meta-task => task-kde4 => konqueror
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 10/1/2010 1:20 PM, Thierry Vignaud wrote: On 1 October 2010 18:54, wrote: I must agree. If FF is going to be the default then addons should be done by the user. Although I still think a browser better suited to KDE would be a better choice. That's alreay what we do for years. We install a matching browser according to the choosen desktop. When the user choose KDE we default to konqueror else we default to firefox through meta-task => task-kde4 => konqueror Wasn't saying that anyone didn't do that. Just throwing my opinion in the ring about addons being installed before hand. Mandriva has always done an amazing job with implementing FF in KDE! Yet, other Linux distributions either have a tough time with it or just simply put no effort into adjusting FF to work better with KDE. Also, as this is not Mandriva I didn't want to make any preconceived notions about features or applications. Again, Mandriva has always done excellent with its browser implementation and I have no doubt Mageia will follow suit.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 1 October 2010 19:20, Thierry Vignaud wrote: > On 1 October 2010 18:54, wrote: >> >> I must agree. If FF is going to be the default then addons should be done >> by the user. Although I still think a browser better suited to KDE would >> be a better choice. > > That's alreay what we do for years. > We install a matching browser according to the choosen desktop. > When the user choose KDE we default to konqueror else we default to firefox > through meta-task => task-kde4 => konqueror > AFAICS Firefox is the default browser in KDE4: $ grep Browser /var/lib/mandriva/kde4-profiles/common/share/config/kdeglobals BrowserApplication=firefox Konqueror is installed by default anyway. However, unfortunately Konqueror isn't the most compatible browser out there... -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
As I stated before Mandriva has always done an amazing job of integrating Firefox into KDE. Yet, other distros, for whatever reason, seem to have a difficult time of it. Also, while I love Konqueror, it does have compatibility issues. Chromium, regardless of your opinion of Google, is an incredibly fast browser. It seems like Firefox is the favorite browser of most people on this list. Also, with the quality of the developers on this project I'm sure FF integration with KDE will be excellent! I'd love to see Chromium as the default but Firefox is an excellent browser in its own right as well. It's a win win either way. :) Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® -Original Message- From: Ahmad Samir Sender: mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 01:57:12 To: Mageia development mailing-list Reply-To: Mageia development mailing-list Subject: Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers On 1 October 2010 19:20, Thierry Vignaud wrote: > On 1 October 2010 18:54, wrote: >> >> I must agree. If FF is going to be the default then addons should be done >> by the user. Although I still think a browser better suited to KDE would >> be a better choice. > > That's alreay what we do for years. > We install a matching browser according to the choosen desktop. > When the user choose KDE we default to konqueror else we default to firefox > through meta-task => task-kde4 => konqueror > AFAICS Firefox is the default browser in KDE4: $ grep Browser /var/lib/mandriva/kde4-profiles/common/share/config/kdeglobals BrowserApplication=firefox Konqueror is installed by default anyway. However, unfortunately Konqueror isn't the most compatible browser out there... -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 2 October 2010 04:02, wrote: > As I stated before Mandriva has always done an amazing job of integrating > Firefox into KDE. Yet, other distros, for whatever reason, seem to have a > difficult time of it. Also, while I love Konqueror, it does have > compatibility issues. Chromium, regardless of your opinion of Google, is an > incredibly fast browser. > > It seems like Firefox is the favorite browser of most people on this list. > Also, with the quality of the developers on this project I'm sure FF > integration with KDE will be excellent! I'd love to see Chromium as the > default but Firefox is an excellent browser in its own right as well. It's a > win win either way. :) > Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry® > > -Original Message- > From: Ahmad Samir > Sender: mageia-dev-boun...@mageia.org > Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2010 01:57:12 > To: Mageia development mailing-list > Reply-To: Mageia development mailing-list > Subject: Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers > > On 1 October 2010 19:20, Thierry Vignaud wrote: >> On 1 October 2010 18:54, wrote: >>> >>> I must agree. If FF is going to be the default then addons should be done >>> by the user. Although I still think a browser better suited to KDE would >>> be a better choice. >> >> That's alreay what we do for years. >> We install a matching browser according to the choosen desktop. >> When the user choose KDE we default to konqueror else we default to firefox >> through meta-task => task-kde4 => konqueror >> > > AFAICS Firefox is the default browser in KDE4: > $ grep Browser /var/lib/mandriva/kde4-profiles/common/share/config/kdeglobals > BrowserApplication=firefox > > > Konqueror is installed by default anyway. However, unfortunately > Konqueror isn't the most compatible browser out there... > > -- > Ahmad Samir > Please don't top-post when sending emails to a mailing list: http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/Mailing_lists_Etiquette_%28Rules%29#Bottom_Post -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
> > Please don't top-post when sending emails to a mailing list: > http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/Mailing_lists_Etiquette_%28Rules%29#Bottom_Post Apologies. ^_^
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 7:53 PM, Gustavo Giampaoli < giampaoli.gust...@gmail.com> wrote: > Why not to use something like this? > > http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/02/19feb10ou2b4dsdvd.jpg > > MS implemented it at Europe because they forced to. We could do it to > be more "democratic"? > > Cheers! > > > Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980) > This is the best solution, imho. As in the database servers case (you choose for postgres, mysql or both at install time).
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
2010/10/2 Mihai Dobrescu > > On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 7:53 PM, Gustavo Giampaoli < > giampaoli.gust...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Why not to use something like this? >> >> >> http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/02/19feb10ou2b4dsdvd.jpg >> >> MS implemented it at Europe because they forced to. We could do it to >> be more "democratic"? >> >> Cheers! >> >> >> Gustavo Giampaoli (aka tavillo1980) >> > > This is the best solution, imho. > As in the database servers case (you choose for postgres, mysql or both at > install time). > To define the default browser is very easy and fast in KDE enviroment (systemsettings → Default Applications) I dont think anything else about the default browser could add more comfort than this. About browsers, i use konqueror and rekonq to be full integrated in KDE, but there are still issues in both of them. May be later, one of them will take the place of Firefox as the default. -- Dimitrios Glentadakis
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Le vendredi 01 octobre 2010 à 13:53 -0300, Gustavo Giampaoli a écrit : > Why not to use something like this? > > http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2010/02/19feb10ou2b4dsdvd.jpg > > MS implemented it at Europe because they forced to. We could do it to > be more "democratic"? This dialog was a pyrrus victory for firefox, imho. We have in mdv : epiphany, midori, firefox, chrome, orora, elinks, konqueror, galeon, links, w3m, lynx, amaya, dillo, hv3, moblin-web-browser. And we can add opera, and surely some various enlightenment browsers When we see how people reacted to the idea of survey, you think it is a good idea to ask "please choose between 15 browsers" each time a new user log in ? Should we represent the dialog if a new browser appear ? Would you find this "democratic" to just choose 5 of them ? So I say no to this idea. Asking useless questions just add burden to the user. People that have a preferred browser know how to install it, those that don't do not care enough. -- Michael Scherer
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Op zaterdag 02 oktober 2010 12:46:24 schreef Michael Scherer: > Le vendredi 01 octobre 2010 à 13:53 -0300, Gustavo Giampaoli a écrit : [...] > So I say no to this idea. Asking useless questions just add burden to > the user. People that have a preferred browser know how to install it, > those that don't do not care enough. +1
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
2010/10/2 Michael Scherer : > > So I say no to this idea. Asking useless questions just add burden to > the user. People that have a preferred browser know how to install it, > those that don't do not care enough. Reasonable. Can also be applied to other such things like OOo (LO) vs koffice, kmail vs TB or other such big applications with many alternatives.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Sat, Oct 2, 2010 at 1:46 PM, Michael Scherer wrote: > People that have a preferred browser know how to install it, > those that don't do not care enough. > -- > Michael Scherer > > True, I'm just lazy, I will always use FF and I would have liked to have it setup at OS install. A choice from a list would have been fine for me, in order to have it installed at the first login already. I.e. to depend on the admin/person that performs the OS install, rather than end-user, that could be the same. There is no distro having all the apps in the world. Some generally preferred (i.e. having enough users of that distro on their side) are always in list. Like Firefox, Chrome, Opera, Konqueror and so. Not all the similar apps made ever in the world. A poll to see if there is anybody interested in some app to come with the distro would be nice. This would make the difference from the good old MDV policy. I truly hope to be possible to propose and vote some apps to be included in the distro. I know it is hard for packagers and testers. I work in this field.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Oct 2, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Michael Scherer wrote: > So I say no to this idea. Asking useless questions just add burden to > the user. People that have a preferred browser know how to install it, > those that don't do not care enough. > -- > Michael Scherer +1 Majority of users do not want choice. Those of us who want choice are knowledgeable enough to find out how to install $AlternativeSoftware. Salut, Sinner
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Majority of users do not want choice. Those of us who want choice are knowledgeable enough to find out how to install $AlternativeSoftware. Salut, Sinner I agree with this statement. Human nature, being what it is, will always look for the shortest and easiest route. Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
But are we always knowledgeable enough to be able to set up the system to use our choice? I confess to being a Mandriva Linux user for only 10 years but I have been an Opera user (and purchaser) for a year or two before that. I ALWAYS have difficulty when removing Firefox and replacing it with Opera as I can NEVER find all of the nooks and crannies of the system and various software packages which presume that Firefox must be available. I would be much happier to discover that a distribution had taken my choices seriously enough to check with me during the install and then make sure that my choice is properly and fully integrated. Then perhaps we could highlight applications which expect no other browser than Firefox and proceed to educate their authors/packagers as to the importance of user choices. > > Majority of users do not want choice. > OK, that may be true, but when one of that majority decides to broaden the horizons of their browsing experience then will they magically be learned enough to be able to fix all of the integration issues for themselves? I suspect not. An install time selector screen and supporting scripts would be a very good starting point for a "Change Default Browser" wizard, much as XFDrake tries to hide the complexities of switching video drivers. Richard
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 3 October 2010 20:19, Richard Walker wrote: > > > But are we always knowledgeable enough to be able to set up the system to > use our choice? > > I confess to being a Mandriva Linux user for only 10 years but I have been > an Opera user (and purchaser) for a year or two before that. I ALWAYS have > difficulty when removing Firefox and replacing it with Opera as I can NEVER > find all of the nooks and crannies of the system and various software > packages which presume that Firefox must be available. > > I would be much happier to discover that a distribution had taken my > choices seriously enough to check with me during the install and then make > sure that my choice is properly and fully integrated. > > Then perhaps we could highlight applications which expect no other browser > than Firefox and proceed to educate their authors/packagers as to the > importance of user choices. > >> >> Majority of users do not want choice. >> > > OK, that may be true, but when one of that majority decides to broaden the > horizons of their browsing experience then will they magically be learned > enough to be able to fix all of the integration issues for themselves? I > suspect not. > > An install time selector screen and supporting scripts would be a very good > starting point for a "Change Default Browser" wizard, much as XFDrake tries > to hide the complexities of switching video drivers. > > Richard > The point is, such scripts break all the time. e.g. chromium-browser has a "make chrome the default browser" button, the problem is, it works only under GNOME, but doesn't work under KDE4 or XFCE. It's using a variant of the xdg-utils scripts... xdg-utils is trying to do the huge job of working with all possible desktop environments, this is, by its very nature, a hard thing to accomplish. Firefox also has a "make firefox the default web browser", again it works only with GTK/GConf based applications, but it doesn't change KDE settings. If upstream can't accomplish this in their apps, how do you expect downstream to do it? -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
For fast web browsing I don't mind using Chromium or even Iron..but I don't trust either for my online banking purchasing etc. Firefox all the way Netcraft toolbar noscript adblock plus for all my privacy sensitive needs.. Opera in a pinch.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 8:41 AM, Ahmad Samir wrote: > > The point is, such scripts break all the time. e.g. chromium-browser > has a "make chrome the default browser" button, the problem is, it > works only under GNOME, but doesn't work under KDE4 or XFCE. It's > using a variant of the xdg-utils scripts... > > xdg-utils is trying to do the huge job of working with all possible > desktop environments, this is, by its very nature, a hard thing to > accomplish. > > Firefox also has a "make firefox the default web browser", again it > works only with GTK/GConf based applications, but it doesn't change > KDE settings. > > If upstream can't accomplish this in their apps, how do you expect > downstream to do it? > Easy. Both upstream and downstream should obey the $BROWSER environment variable.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 5 October 2010 04:06, R James wrote: > On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 8:41 AM, Ahmad Samir wrote: >> >> The point is, such scripts break all the time. e.g. chromium-browser >> has a "make chrome the default browser" button, the problem is, it >> works only under GNOME, but doesn't work under KDE4 or XFCE. It's >> using a variant of the xdg-utils scripts... >> >> xdg-utils is trying to do the huge job of working with all possible >> desktop environments, this is, by its very nature, a hard thing to >> accomplish. >> >> Firefox also has a "make firefox the default web browser", again it >> works only with GTK/GConf based applications, but it doesn't change >> KDE settings. >> >> If upstream can't accomplish this in their apps, how do you expect >> downstream to do it? >> > Easy. Both upstream and downstream should obey the $BROWSER > environment variable. > Yeah, "should" :) -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Ahmad Samir wrote: >>> >>> If upstream can't accomplish this in their apps, how do you expect >>> downstream to do it? >>> >> Easy. Both upstream and downstream should obey the $BROWSER >> environment variable. >> > > Yeah, "should" :) > Then you "should" file a bug report if you encounter non-support of $BROWSER, correct? -- Hoyt
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 5 October 2010 04:43, Hoyt Duff wrote: > On Mon, Oct 4, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Ahmad Samir wrote: > If upstream can't accomplish this in their apps, how do you expect downstream to do it? >>> Easy. Both upstream and downstream should obey the $BROWSER >>> environment variable. >>> >> >> Yeah, "should" :) >> > > Then you "should" file a bug report if you encounter non-support of > $BROWSER, correct? > > > > -- > Hoyt > Sure, if I can dive in each browser and DE way of setting a default browser. Personally I can't get my head fully around it up till now. -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > 2010/10/2 Michael Scherer : >> >> So I say no to this idea. Asking useless questions just add burden to >> the user. People that have a preferred browser know how to install it, >> those that don't do not care enough. > > Reasonable. Can also be applied to other such things like OOo (LO) vs > koffice, kmail vs TB or other such big applications with many > alternatives. +1 My thoughts exactly. Salut, Sinner
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Marc Paré a écrit : Usually the more the extensions you have the heavier/more-ram/more-startup-time firefox gets (and the last time I used AdBlock Plus, about 10 months ago, it leaked memory...). Also it's not useful all over, I think I can do without it if I have noscript installed, (now what would you say if noscript is installed by default?). IMHO, I think no extra extensions should be installed by default, the user should make a choice of which ones he wants (and installing any extensions by default without the "user's consent" isn't ideal too, if it's going to impact the performance of Firefox). I agree, I think the user should be in charge of the extensions. How many of us have heard people say that "Hey, I never installed the Yahoo! bar!" or "Hey, I never installed Safari!". Users are knowledgeable enough to make up their own mind on extensions. Browser use is generally a user specific preference. If Mageia is going to focus more on being a good KDE distro, then it should go along with the defaults with KDE -- Kmail/Konqueror. But, if Mageia is to decide on a "flagship" choice of browser, I think that most computer users these days know of Firefox and this would be a good/safe choice to use as a Mageia endorsed/default browser, but without any extensions pre-installed. The user can tailor his preferences later on depending on his/her browser choice. Marc Personally I use Gnome, so I would rather that Mageia would not become too KDE-centric. (Actually I use Mozilla Seamonkey instead of Mozilla Firefox, but that is another question.) If Kmail/Konqueror is installed by default, then the enormous KDE libraries must be installed, all of which I (or any other Gnome user) will have to remove. If there is a default browser installed, is much better if it is KDE/Gnome agnostic, like Firefox. (i.e. does not require either KDE or Gnome.) As far as extensions go, I agree to leave that to the user. With Mozilla (Firefox or Thunderbird or Seamonkey), any extension can be installed from inside the program, with a few clics. Even saves making any RPMs for the extensions. (I would make localisation extensions an exception.) - André (andre999)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Personally I use Gnome, so I would rather that Mageia would not become too KDE-centric. (Actually I use Mozilla Seamonkey instead of Mozilla Firefox, but that is another question.) If Kmail/Konqueror is installed by default, then the enormous KDE libraries must be installed, all of which I (or any other Gnome user) will have to remove. If there is a default browser installed, is much better if it is KDE/Gnome agnostic, like Firefox. (i.e. does not require either KDE or Gnome.) As far as extensions go, I agree to leave that to the user. With Mozilla (Firefox or Thunderbird or Seamonkey), any extension can be installed from inside the program, with a few clics. Even saves making any RPMs for the extensions. (I would make localisation extensions an exception.) - André (andre999) I am not sure anymore, but I thought I had read somewhere that Mageia would be a KDE-centric distro "à la Mandriva", but still offer Gnome etc. if the user wished to install it. Someone? Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
在 Thu, 07 Oct 2010 07:59:52 +0800, Marc Paré 寫道: I am not sure anymore, but I thought I had read somewhere that Mageia would be a KDE-centric distro "à la Mandriva", but still offer Gnome etc. if the user wished to install it. Someone? Marc Never heard about it. Is it someone wrongly take Mageia as Mandriva?
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Le 2010-10-06 20:20, Kira a écrit : 在 Thu, 07 Oct 2010 07:59:52 +0800, Marc Paré 寫道: I am not sure anymore, but I thought I had read somewhere that Mageia would be a KDE-centric distro "à la Mandriva", but still offer Gnome etc. if the user wished to install it. Someone? Marc Never heard about it. Is it someone wrongly take Mageia as Mandriva? I guess this information would have to come from someone from the core dev group. Just so that we know for sure. So, is Mageia going to be principally a KDE distro with offers during installation to install GNOME and other desktops? Or is it going to be a desktop agnostic distro where the user eventually picks the desktop sometime during the installation processs? This may help with this thread on the talk of browsers. Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
2010/10/7 Marc Paré : > > I guess this information would have to come from someone from the core dev > group. Just so that we know for sure. So, is Mageia going to be principally > a KDE distro with offers during installation to install GNOME and other > desktops? Or is it going to be a desktop agnostic distro where the user > eventually picks the desktop sometime during the installation processs? > > This may help with this thread on the talk of browsers. Pls correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know any browser which is DE dependent - well, there's konqueror, if you want to call this "I want to be everything" a browser. But for real browsers, what does it matter which DE is used?
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Marc Paré a écrit : Personally I use Gnome, so I would rather that Mageia would not become too KDE-centric. (Actually I use Mozilla Seamonkey instead of Mozilla Firefox, but that is another question.) If Kmail/Konqueror is installed by default, then the enormous KDE libraries must be installed, all of which I (or any other Gnome user) will have to remove. If there is a default browser installed, is much better if it is KDE/Gnome agnostic, like Firefox. (i.e. does not require either KDE or Gnome.) As far as extensions go, I agree to leave that to the user. With Mozilla (Firefox or Thunderbird or Seamonkey), any extension can be installed from inside the program, with a few clics. Even saves making any RPMs for the extensions. (I would make localisation extensions an exception.) - André (andre999) I am not sure anymore, but I thought I had read somewhere that Mageia would be a KDE-centric distro "à la Mandriva", but still offer Gnome etc. if the user wished to install it. Someone? Marc I saw that suggestion from somebody (in a post to this or the mageia-discuss list). Mandriva officially supports both KDE and Gnome, to my understanding. Since I came to Mandriva from RedHat, I'm more used to Gnome. I've tried KDE; it take a lot more space, and Gnome suits me better. So evidently, I'd like Mageia to support both. - André (andre999)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Thu, 2010-10-07 at 04:01 +0200, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > 2010/10/7 Marc Paré : > > > > I guess this information would have to come from someone from the core dev > > group. Just so that we know for sure. So, is Mageia going to be principally > > a KDE distro with offers during installation to install GNOME and other > > desktops? Or is it going to be a desktop agnostic distro where the user > > eventually picks the desktop sometime during the installation processs? > > > > This may help with this thread on the talk of browsers. > > Pls correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know any browser which is DE > dependent - well, there's konqueror, if you want to call this "I want > to be everything" a browser. But for real browsers, what does it > matter which DE is used? While Mandriva officially supported both GNOME and KDE, I do remember the last time I tried the GNOME version of Mandriva it was pretty much a raw GNOME install. It had no changes to the default options such as, a web browser type of tool bar, and opening new folders in the same window. After trying to get to a video and finding I now had 5 windows opened I assumed Mandriva's focus was most assuredly KDE. I admit this was a while back, so this could all have been addressed already, but it scared me away from Mandriva-GNOME. Also, while yes, most browsers are DE independent, Firefox takes a bit of tweeking to work flawlessly within the KDE DE. Some distros have supplied a very vanilla install and things such as application associations were rather buggy. Yet, if it's done right (and Mandriva always did it right) Firefox works great on KDE as do all the other major browsers, IE excluded of course.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Sorteal a écrit : On Thu, 2010-10-07 at 04:01 +0200, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: 2010/10/7 Marc Paré: I guess this information would have to come from someone from the core dev group. Just so that we know for sure. So, is Mageia going to be principally a KDE distro with offers during installation to install GNOME and other desktops? Or is it going to be a desktop agnostic distro where the user eventually picks the desktop sometime during the installation processs? This may help with this thread on the talk of browsers. Pls correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know any browser which is DE dependent - well, there's konqueror, if you want to call this "I want to be everything" a browser. But for real browsers, what does it matter which DE is used? While Mandriva officially supported both GNOME and KDE, I do remember the last time I tried the GNOME version of Mandriva it was pretty much a raw GNOME install. It had no changes to the default options such as, a web browser type of tool bar, and opening new folders in the same window. After trying to get to a video and finding I now had 5 windows opened I assumed Mandriva's focus was most assuredly KDE. I admit this was a while back, so this could all have been addressed already, but it scared me away from Mandriva-GNOME. For a while Gnome 2 had some problems at first, just as did KDE 4, but they have been long solved. (The upgrade to Gnome 2 was a major rewrite.) Most of the things you mention are configuration problems. It might be a little difficult at first finding exactly where to adjust the specific settings, but that is to be expected. Also, while yes, most browsers are DE independent, Firefox takes a bit of tweeking to work flawlessly within the KDE DE. Some distros have supplied a very vanilla install and things such as application associations were rather buggy. Yet, if it's done right (and Mandriva always did it right) Firefox works great on KDE as do all the other major browsers, IE excluded of course. Firefox also works well with Gnome. ... Wait a minute ... who said that (ms) IE is a major browser ? ;)
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 7 October 2010 02:20, Kira wrote: > 在 Thu, 07 Oct 2010 07:59:52 +0800, Marc Paré 寫道: >> >> I am not sure anymore, but I thought I had read somewhere that Mageia >> would be a KDE-centric distro "à la Mandriva", but still offer Gnome etc. if >> the user wished to install it. >> >> Someone? >> >> Marc >> > Never heard about it. Is it someone wrongly take Mageia as Mandriva? > Me too, I never heard anyone saying Mageia will be kde4-centric. IMHO, even for kde4 Konqueror shouldn't be the default web browser, it has a lot of quirks. Experienced users who want to use anything other than the defaults do so all the time; the "defaults" only apply for new users (until they gain enough experience and start customising too). -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
在 Thu, 07 Oct 2010 13:14:46 +0800, Ahmad Samir 寫道: IMHO, even for kde4 Konqueror shouldn't be the default web browser, it has a lot of quirks. Experienced users who want to use anything other than the defaults do so all the time; the "defaults" only apply for new users (until they gain enough experience and start customising too). Might be my prejudice, but Konqueror don't fit into daily usage, after all in the default setting there's Firefox as default browser and Konqueror lacks certain functionality which makes it hard to use. May be remove it from the default set the KDE4 installation set?
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 7 October 2010 07:19, Kira wrote: > 在 Thu, 07 Oct 2010 13:14:46 +0800, Ahmad Samir 寫道: >> >> IMHO, even for kde4 Konqueror shouldn't be the default web browser, it >> has a lot of quirks. Experienced users who want to use anything other >> than the defaults do so all the time; the "defaults" only apply for >> new users (until they gain enough experience and start customising >> too). > > Might be my prejudice, but Konqueror don't fit into daily usage, > > after all in the default setting there's Firefox as default browser and > > Konqueror lacks certain functionality which makes it hard to use. > > May be remove it from the default set the KDE4 installation set? > > No, konqueror is still useful as a file manager (some users don't like dolphin for some reason), also as a man pages viewer. Also it shares some code with dolphin (some stuff/features don't work in dolphin if konqueror isn't installed). -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
2010/10/7 Kira > 在 Thu, 07 Oct 2010 13:14:46 +0800, Ahmad Samir >寫道: > > IMHO, even for kde4 Konqueror shouldn't be the default web browser, it >> has a lot of quirks. Experienced users who want to use anything other >> than the defaults do so all the time; the "defaults" only apply for >> new users (until they gain enough experience and start customising >> too). >> > Might be my prejudice, but Konqueror don't fit into daily usage, > > after all in the default setting there's Firefox as default browser and > > Konqueror lacks certain functionality which makes it hard to use. > > May be remove it from the default set the KDE4 installation set? > > For KDE, probably better choice is Rekonq now?
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
在 Thu, 07 Oct 2010 13:29:25 +0800, Ahmad Samir 寫道: No, konqueror is still useful as a file manager (some users don't like dolphin for some reason), also as a man pages viewer. Also it shares some code with dolphin (some stuff/features don't work in dolphin if konqueror isn't installed). That part of code should be split as independent share package, isn't it? Also, is it possible to use other browsers to do the same job? I think Konqueror should only in the full task package set you install kde4 (task-kde4), not in the core task package set (task-kde4-minimal).
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
I think that I read somewhere that Mandriva *started *as KDE centric. AFAIK, Gnome, KDE and some other popular DE are supported and Mandriva spent an important effort to make them look alike from the main menu and other customizations point of view. As file browsers I like Dolphin, Konqueror and I use Krusader a lot. As internet browser, Firefox is my favorite, although I use Opera occasionally (it's ergonomic, free but not open sourced). I would like to see Firefox having Chrome's architecture (each tab in its process) and less memory consumer (this is due to plugins too - the pluggable architecture is what makes me stick with it).
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
2010/10/7 Kira > 在 Thu, 07 Oct 2010 13:29:25 +0800, Ahmad Samir >寫道: > > No, konqueror is still useful as a file manager (some users don't like >> dolphin for some reason), also as a man pages viewer. Also it shares >> some code with dolphin (some stuff/features don't work in dolphin if >> konqueror isn't installed). >> >> That part of code should be split as independent share package, isn't it? > > Also, is it possible to use other browsers to do the same job? I think > > Konqueror should only in the full task package set you install kde4 > (task-kde4), > > not in the core task package set (task-kde4-minimal). > For me, Konqueror is the main application in my system. file manager and browser. May be for others too -- Dimitrios Glentadakis
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Thursday 07 Oct 2010 19:11:45 Mihai Dobrescu wrote: > I think that I read somewhere that Mandriva *started *as KDE centric. > AFAIK, Gnome, KDE and some other popular DE are supported and Mandriva > spent an important effort to make them look alike from the main menu and > other customizations point of view. > As file browsers I like Dolphin, Konqueror and I use Krusader a lot. > As internet browser, Firefox is my favorite, although I use Opera > occasionally (it's ergonomic, free but not open sourced). I would like to > see Firefox having Chrome's architecture (each tab in its process) and less > memory consumer (this is due to plugins too - the pluggable architecture is > what makes me stick with it). Don't kill konqueror it's my default ftp client. There are already a bunch of Gnome centric distros. KDE centric would be no issue nobody else is so in fact it would be a excellent point of difference. In fact, if it was my decision I'd leave Gnome to Ubuntu, Redhat, CentOS, Debian, Solaris and all those Gnome centric distros and concentrate on being the best KDE environment. Cheers GL
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 7 October 2010 09:21, Graham Lauder wrote: > On Thursday 07 Oct 2010 19:11:45 Mihai Dobrescu wrote: >> I think that I read somewhere that Mandriva *started *as KDE centric. >> AFAIK, Gnome, KDE and some other popular DE are supported and Mandriva >> spent an important effort to make them look alike from the main menu and >> other customizations point of view. >> As file browsers I like Dolphin, Konqueror and I use Krusader a lot. >> As internet browser, Firefox is my favorite, although I use Opera >> occasionally (it's ergonomic, free but not open sourced). I would like to >> see Firefox having Chrome's architecture (each tab in its process) and less >> memory consumer (this is due to plugins too - the pluggable architecture is >> what makes me stick with it). > > > Don't kill konqueror it's my default ftp client. > > There are already a bunch of Gnome centric distros. > > KDE centric would be no issue nobody else is so in fact it would be a > excellent point of difference. In fact, if it was my decision I'd leave Gnome > to Ubuntu, Redhat, CentOS, Debian, Solaris and all those Gnome centric distros > and concentrate on being the best KDE environment. > > Cheers > GL > I think all DE's should be supported as much as possible. Even in Mandriva, which theoretically was a KDE-centric distro, both KDE and GNOME were equally supported AFAICS. -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Thu, 2010-10-07 at 00:22 -0400, andré wrote: > Sorteal a écrit : > > On Thu, 2010-10-07 at 04:01 +0200, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > > > >> 2010/10/7 Marc Paré: > >> > >>> I guess this information would have to come from someone from the core dev > >>> group. Just so that we know for sure. So, is Mageia going to be > >>> principally > >>> a KDE distro with offers during installation to install GNOME and other > >>> desktops? Or is it going to be a desktop agnostic distro where the user > >>> eventually picks the desktop sometime during the installation processs? > >>> > >>> This may help with this thread on the talk of browsers. > >>> > >> Pls correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know any browser which is DE > >> dependent - well, there's konqueror, if you want to call this "I want > >> to be everything" a browser. But for real browsers, what does it > >> matter which DE is used? > >> > > While Mandriva officially supported both GNOME and KDE, I do remember > > the last time I tried the GNOME version of Mandriva it was pretty much a > > raw GNOME install. It had no changes to the default options such as, a > > web browser type of tool bar, and opening new folders in the same > > window. After trying to get to a video and finding I now had 5 windows > > opened I assumed Mandriva's focus was most assuredly KDE. I admit this > > was a while back, so this could all have been addressed already, but it > > scared me away from Mandriva-GNOME. > For a while Gnome 2 had some problems at first, just as did KDE 4, but > they have been long solved. (The upgrade to Gnome 2 was a major rewrite.) > Most of the things you mention are configuration problems. It might be > a little difficult at first finding exactly where to adjust the specific > settings, but that is to be expected. > >Also, while yes, most browsers are > > DE independent, Firefox takes a bit of tweeking to work flawlessly > > within the KDE DE. Some distros have supplied a very vanilla install > > and things such as application associations were rather buggy. Yet, if > > it's done right (and Mandriva always did it right) Firefox works great > > on KDE as do all the other major browsers, IE excluded of course. > > > Firefox also works well with Gnome. > > ... Wait a minute ... who said that (ms) IE is a major browser ? ;) Firefox works great with GNOME since it's GTK based. I love GNOME, Ubuntu is my main desktop distro with Mandriva being my work desktop, and Firefox seems tailor made for GNOME. I'm not sure if its GTK (kind of) base is the reason some KDE focused distros (Kubuntu, OpenSUSE, and Linux Mint KDE) have a rough time getting Firefox to work perfectly right "out-of-the-box". As long as everything works without me having to configure it to work right I'm perfectly happy using FF as my default browser. Also, yeah I hate that IE is a major browser too. Yet for some reason 60% - 70% of computer users choose it as their main browser. Sad but true. :-( I'm really hoping Mageia focuses on both GNOME & KDE, but I could also understand if the developers chose to focus on just one for stability and speed reasons. Guess I just figured it was a KDE-centric distro since Mandriva seemed to focus so much on it.
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
No, konqueror is still useful as a file manager (some users don't like dolphin for some reason), also as a man pages viewer. Also it shares some code with dolphin (some stuff/features don't work in dolphin if konqueror isn't installed). I usually use Konqueror as my ftp agent. It works flawlessly. I just recently started to try Dolphin ((Ctrl-l) brings up the URL field) but it just kept kicking me off my sites for some reason. Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Le mercredi 06 octobre 2010 à 23:18 -0400, Sorteal a écrit : > On Thu, 2010-10-07 at 04:01 +0200, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > > 2010/10/7 Marc Paré : > > > > > > I guess this information would have to come from someone from the core dev > > > group. Just so that we know for sure. So, is Mageia going to be > > > principally > > > a KDE distro with offers during installation to install GNOME and other > > > desktops? Or is it going to be a desktop agnostic distro where the user > > > eventually picks the desktop sometime during the installation processs? > > > > > > This may help with this thread on the talk of browsers. > > > > Pls correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know any browser which is DE > > dependent - well, there's konqueror, if you want to call this "I want > > to be everything" a browser. But for real browsers, what does it > > matter which DE is used? > > While Mandriva officially supported both GNOME and KDE, I do remember > the last time I tried the GNOME version of Mandriva it was pretty much a > raw GNOME install. Yeah, that's in fact a feature. GNOME was manager by Frederic Crozat, who is a gnome developer, so he followed quite closely gnome decisions. Some people may argue that a distro is here to enhance software, but the first goal is to distribute. And since everybody think distro should collaborate more, pushing upstream is exactly this kind of collaboration. -- Michael Scherer
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
I saw that suggestion from somebody (in a post to this or the mageia-discuss list). Mandriva officially supports both KDE and Gnome, to my understanding. Since I came to Mandriva from RedHat, I'm more used to Gnome. I've tried KDE; it take a lot more space, and Gnome suits me better. So evidently, I'd like Mageia to support both. - André (andre999) But we still haven't heard from someone on the core Mageia group? Or is this issue still unsettled? Is there anyone from the core group who could jump in and straighten us out? Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Marc Paré schrieb am 2010-10-07 > > Since I came to Mandriva from RedHat, I'm more used to Gnome. > > I've tried KDE; it take a lot more space, and Gnome suits me better. > > So evidently, I'd like Mageia to support both. > But we still haven't heard from someone on the core Mageia group? Or is > this issue still unsettled? Is there anyone from the core group who > could jump in and straighten us out? I think, it's quite simple. If there are packagers wanting to do KDE, GNOME, XFCE or LXDE: fine. If not: not so fine. You don't believe that a packager using GNOME will build KDE just because some users have the opinion GNOME shell be dropped? Before that happens this packager will leave to another distro where he can package GNOME. So what is the sense of this descussion? Remember: this is a community project. you can't force a packager to do, what he choses not to. Oliver
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Le 2010-10-07 07:27, Oliver Burger a écrit : Marc Paré schrieb am 2010-10-07 Since I came to Mandriva from RedHat, I'm more used to Gnome. I've tried KDE; it take a lot more space, and Gnome suits me better. So evidently, I'd like Mageia to support both. But we still haven't heard from someone on the core Mageia group? Or is this issue still unsettled? Is there anyone from the core group who could jump in and straighten us out? I think, it's quite simple. If there are packagers wanting to do KDE, GNOME, XFCE or LXDE: fine. If not: not so fine. You don't believe that a packager using GNOME will build KDE just because some users have the opinion GNOME shell be dropped? Before that happens this packager will leave to another distro where he can package GNOME. So what is the sense of this descussion? Remember: this is a community project. you can't force a packager to do, what he choses not to. Oliver Thanks. That makes sense. Sorry, I was still thinking the "Mandriva corporate" way. So, we are pretty well left at the mercy of the devs interest with this regard. (I don't mean to sound negative, but more realist in saying this.) Do you know, out of interest, if there are more KDE or Gnome devs interested in the Mageia project or if this is till too early to tell? Also, out of interest, how hard is it to maintain both from a dev point of view (time-wise etc.)? (I'm sure others will jump in and ask for other desktop manager here too.) Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Marc Paré schrieb am 2010-10-07 > Thanks. That makes sense. Sorry, I was still thinking the "Mandriva > corporate" way. So, we are pretty well left at the mercy of the devs > interest with this regard. (I don't mean to sound negative, but more > realist in saying this.) > > Do you know, out of interest, if there are more KDE or Gnome devs > interested in the Mageia project or if this is till too early to tell? Looking into the wiki: http://www.mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=packaging#list_of_categories there are more packagers interested in KDE thean the others. Actually there's not a single packager interested in GNOME which I think is a pitty. Although I do prefer KDE, I'm using apps from all DEs. I don't see any reason, not to use some app just because it is from another DE I hope there will be someone taking over GNOME. (after all I am the guy building the Ubuntu-netbook-launcher for the German Mandriva community repo because I do really like the launcher). > Also, out of interest, how hard is it to maintain both from a dev point > of view (time-wise etc.)? (I'm sure others will jump in and ask for > other desktop manager here too.) I think the main packagers from one of the DEs are quite bussy with that. Especially if you try to fit them into a distro specific look and feel. In this respect it is perhaps a good decision not to customize them too much. Makes the work much easier. Packagers as myself who were - at least till now - building only single applications can do that for any number of DEs as long as they have the time doing it. But I'm not a professional in this respect, I'm just an ambitioned amateur who is doing his best in the time that's free for me to do so. Oliver
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Marc Paré writes: Hi, >> I saw that suggestion from somebody (in a post to this or the >> mageia-discuss list). Mandriva officially supports both KDE and Gnome, >> to my understanding. >> Since I came to Mandriva from RedHat, I'm more used to Gnome. >> I've tried KDE; it take a lot more space, and Gnome suits me better. >> So evidently, I'd like Mageia to support both. >> >> - André (andre999) >> >> > > But we still haven't heard from someone on the core Mageia group? Or > is this issue still unsettled? Is there anyone from the core group who > could jump in and straighten us out? imho, I don't see any reason why one DE should be prefered to one an other. There will be people working on GNOME or KDE or whatever. Mageia is handled by a community so this give the possibility to have versions with KDE or GNOME installed (or something else). We have choices so why should it be reduced to no choice at all ? As regards having it as default/"prefered" choice, it's something else... Arnaud
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 7 October 2010 13:10, Michael Scherer wrote: > Le mercredi 06 octobre 2010 à 23:18 -0400, Sorteal a écrit : >> On Thu, 2010-10-07 at 04:01 +0200, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: >> > 2010/10/7 Marc Paré : >> > > >> > > I guess this information would have to come from someone from the core >> > > dev >> > > group. Just so that we know for sure. So, is Mageia going to be >> > > principally >> > > a KDE distro with offers during installation to install GNOME and other >> > > desktops? Or is it going to be a desktop agnostic distro where the user >> > > eventually picks the desktop sometime during the installation processs? >> > > >> > > This may help with this thread on the talk of browsers. >> > >> > Pls correct me if I'm wrong but I don't know any browser which is DE >> > dependent - well, there's konqueror, if you want to call this "I want >> > to be everything" a browser. But for real browsers, what does it >> > matter which DE is used? >> >> While Mandriva officially supported both GNOME and KDE, I do remember >> the last time I tried the GNOME version of Mandriva it was pretty much a >> raw GNOME install. > > Yeah, that's in fact a feature. GNOME was manager by Frederic Crozat, > who is a gnome developer, so he followed quite closely gnome decisions. > And KDE was managed by whom? all the Mandriva KDE team were/are KDE developers. It's just different packaging philosophies, KDE guys like to customize stuff (that's a bit generalising); while GNOME guys didn't (note that the whole GNOME philosophy is "conservative", e.g. in the options in provides in GUI). Both philosophies had its pros and cons. One big advantage of sticking as close to upstream as possible is that GNOME team in mdv eased their maintenance burdens, which is logical as they weren't that many and were always overworked (note that fcrozat, for example, didn't just maintain only GNOME, but many other aspects of the distro too, including a good number of core stuff). > Some people may argue that a distro is here to enhance software, but the > first goal is to distribute. And since everybody think distro should > collaborate more, pushing upstream is exactly this kind of > collaboration. > > -- > Michael Scherer > > -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 7 October 2010 13:50, Oliver Burger wrote: > Marc Paré schrieb am 2010-10-07 >> Thanks. That makes sense. Sorry, I was still thinking the "Mandriva >> corporate" way. So, we are pretty well left at the mercy of the devs >> interest with this regard. (I don't mean to sound negative, but more >> realist in saying this.) >> >> Do you know, out of interest, if there are more KDE or Gnome devs >> interested in the Mageia project or if this is till too early to tell? > Looking into the wiki: > http://www.mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=packaging#list_of_categories there are > more packagers interested in KDE thean the others. Actually there's not a > single packager interested in GNOME which I think is a pitty. Although I do > prefer KDE, I'm using apps from all DEs. I don't see any reason, not to use > some app just because it is from another DE > I hope there will be someone taking over GNOME. (after all I am the guy > building the Ubuntu-netbook-launcher for the German Mandriva community repo > because I do really like the launcher). > Götz Waschk said he'll package for Mageia, it just seems he doesn't care about putting his names in lists :) -- Ahmad Samir
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 7 October 2010 14:35, Ahmad Samir wrote: > Götz Waschk said he'll package for Mageia, it just seems he doesn't > care about putting his names in lists :) s/Götz/SuperGötz/ !
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On jeudi 07 octobre 2010 at 09:15, Dimitrios Glentadakis wrote : > For me, Konqueror is the main application in my system. file manager and > browser. May be for others too Yep, konqueror is my filemanager, web browser, (s)ftp client and quick previewer (with kparts integration). It is just great to be able to split a view and have a web page on one side and an sftp connection on the other to quickly copy linked documents from the first to the second :-) (actually, splitting views is one of my favourite konqueror killer feature) -- Renaud Michel
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Le 2010-10-07 16:18, Renaud MICHEL a écrit : On jeudi 07 octobre 2010 at 09:15, Dimitrios Glentadakis wrote : For me, Konqueror is the main application in my system. file manager and browser. May be for others too Yep, konqueror is my filemanager, web browser, (s)ftp client and quick previewer (with kparts integration). It is just great to be able to split a view and have a web page on one side and an sftp connection on the other to quickly copy linked documents from the first to the second :-) (actually, splitting views is one of my favourite konqueror killer feature) That's how I do it too. Really cool! Also, the KDE4.5.X where you drag the window into the left side and it re-draws it to a half-monitor size and you can then open another window with it re-drawing on the other half. Really efficient! However, Dolphin seems to me a little less clunkier than Konqueror. Which is why I am trying out Dolphin as an ftp agent. I find it (Dolphin) still a little temperamental and keep going back to Konqueror though. I do my file managing with Dolphin though. Mdv2010.1 KDE4.5.0. Cheers Marc
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On Friday 08 Oct 2010 09:18:03 Renaud MICHEL wrote: > On jeudi 07 octobre 2010 at 09:15, Dimitrios Glentadakis wrote : > > For me, Konqueror is the main application in my system. file manager and > > browser. May be for others too > > Yep, konqueror is my filemanager, web browser, (s)ftp client and quick > previewer (with kparts integration). > It is just great to be able to split a view and have a web page on one side > and an sftp connection on the other to quickly copy linked documents from > the first to the second :-) > > (actually, splitting views is one of my favourite konqueror killer feature) Yep, agreed it is the most versatile piece of kit on my comp, for website admin it is killer. Page preview, ftp and local directory all in there together using split screen just rox. Nothing else comes close Cheers GL -- Graham Lauder, OpenOffice.org MarCon (Marketing Contact) NZ http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html OpenOffice.org Migration and training Consultant. INGOTs Assessor Trainer (International Grades in Open Technologies) www.theingots.org
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On 10/7/2010 4:41 PM, Marc Paré wrote: Le 2010-10-07 16:18, Renaud MICHEL a écrit : On jeudi 07 octobre 2010 at 09:15, Dimitrios Glentadakis wrote : For me, Konqueror is the main application in my system. file manager and browser. May be for others too Yep, konqueror is my filemanager, web browser, (s)ftp client and quick previewer (with kparts integration). It is just great to be able to split a view and have a web page on one side and an sftp connection on the other to quickly copy linked documents from the first to the second :-) (actually, splitting views is one of my favourite konqueror killer feature) That's how I do it too. Really cool! Also, the KDE4.5.X where you drag the window into the left side and it re-draws it to a half-monitor size and you can then open another window with it re-drawing on the other half. Really efficient! However, Dolphin seems to me a little less clunkier than Konqueror. Which is why I am trying out Dolphin as an ftp agent. I find it (Dolphin) still a little temperamental and keep going back to Konqueror though. I do my file managing with Dolphin though. Mdv2010.1 KDE4.5.0. Cheers Marc Why are we even talking about removing Konqueror?? So many people use it as their default file manager and ftp client that removing it seems crazy. While I do agree that Konqueror is not the greatest web browser around and Rekonq is a much better choice for a pure Qt/KDE browser, I do not think we should be excluding Konqueror at all. Plus, Dolphin still requires certain parts of Konqueror to function correctly if I'm not mistaken. While at first I found Dolphin rather weak in comparison to Konqueror, as far as file management went, it has improved over the last couple of years. Now, I actually prefer Dolphin over Konqueror when it comes to file management but I still use Konqueror for ftp or when I need a all in one kind of tool. If Konqueror could render web pages as well as Rekonq, Firefox, or Chromium I'd definitely use it as my default web browser. Thanks -Jason
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
On jeudi 07 octobre 2010 at 23:39, Sorteal wrote : > Why are we even talking about removing Konqueror?? So many people use > it as their default file manager and ftp client that removing it seems > crazy. While I do agree that Konqueror is not the greatest web browser > around and Rekonq is a much better choice for a pure Qt/KDE browser, I > do not think we should be excluding Konqueror at all. I don't think anybody suggested to remove konqueror, but rather to provide firefox as the default browser on a new install. Although I prefer konqueror, I think it is reasonable as most people expect to have firefox (and I use it for the few sites that I visit and render badly in konqueror (actually, it is more about javascript than rendering)). > Plus, Dolphin still requires certain parts of Konqueror to function > correctly if I'm not mistaken. Right, but those parts are in separate libraries which can (and will) be installed without installing konqueror itself. > While at first I found Dolphin rather weak in comparison to Konqueror, > as far as file management went, it has improved over the last couple of > years. Now, I actually prefer Dolphin over Konqueror when it comes to > file management but I still use Konqueror for ftp or when I need a all > in one kind of tool. If Konqueror could render web pages as well as > Rekonq, Firefox, or Chromium I'd definitely use it as my default web > browser. There is a webkit kpart which can be used instead of the standard khtml one. In mdv2010.1 it is provided by package webkitkde. I think I read somewhere that it was greatly improved in KDE 4.5 (or was it during a summer of code after KDE 4.5 release?) with better KDE integration. -- Renaud Michel
Re: [Mageia-dev] Talk of Browsers
Am 01.10.2010 00:32, schrieb sorteal: I'm curious if Chromium has been considered as the default browser? With KDE seeming to be the DE of choice and Firefox having a less than stellar record with KDE integration I find Chromium to be an appealing alternative to Firefox. Just curious. -Jason A. Turner ___ Mageia-dev mailing list Mageia-dev@mageia.org https://www.mageia.org/mailman/listinfo/mageia-dev Firefox got a lot of love reagrding integration, it uses KDE filepicker by default, and it integrates really nice with knotify and the notification system with the plasma-notify extensions which is also installed by default. What more do you need for good integration besides that? And please, don't make Chromium the default. It is still missing a lot of useful extensions which are available for Firefox, it is still under heavy development and a mess to package correctly, it needs huge and aggressive patches to use the system libraries which need to be rediffed often. It is fast and has some nice features that Firefox hasn't, but please don't make it the default.
