Re: [Mageia-dev] new fonts?
27.09.2012 09:55, EatDirt kirjoitti: On 25/09/12 21:54, David Walser wrote: This topic came up in the packagers meeting. It was stated that: - the change was initiated by Thierry Vignaud (tv) - the change was also done in Fedora Ah, thanks for the infos! Although I think the first reason is a good reason (tv), the second is not. Have you seen their logo, it looks like facebook :))) Possibilities: 1) revert this change 2) someone put their foot down and decide we're sticking with this Also, if it's really that bothersome for some people, maybe it would be good to have an easy way for users to change this locally. Personally 1); but 2) + a user-friendly way to change it is good too. 3) Fix the issue. Fedora actually has DejaVu fonts as default with higher priority and Liberation fonts with a lower priority. Unfortunately, we only have the Liberation part of that from Fedora, causing it to be set as default. In fact, our fonts-ttf-dejavu was updated over a year ago to include the config file setting DejaVu with higher priority, but it was never submitted. I've just fixed a bug in the pkg and submitted it, so that fonts get back to normal. It'd be really nice if someone looked over our font packages and fonts config stuff and compared them to Fedora stuff, we may have yet more WTFs in there... -- Anssi Hannula
Re: [Mageia-dev] new fonts?
On Sat, 2012-09-29 at 03:23 +0300, Anssi Hannula wrote: [resending from the right address; I wish evolution would fix that bug!] 3) Fix the issue. Fedora actually has DejaVu fonts as default with higher priority and Liberation fonts with a lower priority. Makes sense. [...] It'd be really nice if someone looked over our font packages and fonts config stuff and compared them to Fedora stuff, we may have yet more WTFs in there... I'm not in a position to do that, sorry. But the Fedora font project has been quite active in the past. I wish we had a more fine-grained way to install/uninstall fonts: $ fc-list|wc -l 2489 but adding 2,000+ packages isn't the way to go. FontMatrix has ways to activate/deactivate fonts, but is not included at least in the Mageia 1 that I have here. Fonts, themes, background images, legal music files :-) and other resources could do with a way to manage them at a per-user and per-project level. This is a more general topic than Mageia is likely to solve I think :) Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml http://www.holoweb.net/~liam/ - the barefoot typographer -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml
Re: [Mageia-dev] new fonts?
On Sat, 2012-09-29 at 03:23 +0300, Anssi Hannula wrote: 3) Fix the issue. Fedora actually has DejaVu fonts as default with higher priority and Liberation fonts with a lower priority. Makes sense. [...] It'd be really nice if someone looked over our font packages and fonts config stuff and compared them to Fedora stuff, we may have yet more WTFs in there... I'm not in a position to do that, sorry. But the Fedora font project has been quite active in the past. I wish we had a more fine-grained way to install/uninstall fonts: $ fc-list|wc -l 2489 but adding 2,000+ packages isn't the way to go. FontMatrix has ways to activate/deactivate fonts, but is not included at least in the Mageia 1 that I have here. Fonts, themes, background images, legal music files :-) and other resources could do with a way to manage them at a per-user and per-project level. This is a more general topic than Mageia is likely to solve I think :) Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml http://www.holoweb.net/~liam/ - the barefoot typographer
Re: [Mageia-dev] new fonts?
On 25/09/12 21:54, David Walser wrote: This topic came up in the packagers meeting. It was stated that: - the change was initiated by Thierry Vignaud (tv) - the change was also done in Fedora Ah, thanks for the infos! Although I think the first reason is a good reason (tv), the second is not. Have you seen their logo, it looks like facebook :))) Possibilities: 1) revert this change 2) someone put their foot down and decide we're sticking with this Also, if it's really that bothersome for some people, maybe it would be good to have an easy way for users to change this locally. Personally 1); but 2) + a user-friendly way to change it is good too. cheers, chris.
Re: [Mageia-dev] new fonts?
On Monday 24 Sep 2012 14:12:53 Liam R E Quin wrote: Are the Liberation Font's UTF8 Complete? Strictly speaking UTF-8 is an encoding, a way of representing 32-bit integers in as few bytes (octets) as possible while still working with text tools; those 32-bit integers are Unicode codepoints, indices into a table of characters published by the Unicode Consortium. Currently the table actually only needs I think 18 bits (more than 16 and less than 24 at any rate), but is still growing. However, asking for a single typeface to have a unified design for Vietnamese, Hindi, Traditional Chinese, Simplified Chinese, Japanese, English, French, Czech, Cree, ... is a tall order. You'd also have a rather large font file (probably between 500M and a gigabyte). So, the best approach is to choose smaller fonts that work OK with each other and give the best coverage. Thanks for the explanation. Hope this helps. I responded to more than your question to try help others see the issues too :-) Thinking about it my underlying questions are... 1) how do Magia ensure that all new installs get the right default fonts? Including installs where the user needs characters not supported by Liberation. 2) as a user I don't like to see incoming emails / web pages with blobs replacing missing characters. At least if the character is there I can always shove it through Google translate.
Re: [Mageia-dev] new fonts?
On Sun, Sep 23, 2012 at 12:30 PM, eatdirt dirt...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, is that a bug that all default fonts on kdm, firefox, terminal titles changed to an ugly one? ;) cheers, chris. It is not ugly for me, but some char like , : are not displayed correctly on Firefox. Not sure if this is related. Liutauras
Re: [Mageia-dev] new fonts?
On 23/09/12 14:28, brian.sm...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I noticed the change... but on my machine it looks like an improvement I don't know if just my eyesight or the change is having different effects on different set ups. I'm using X86-64 with a Radeon graphics card On 24/09/12 08:31, Liutauras Adomaitis wrote: It is not ugly for me, but some char like , : are not displayed correctly on Firefox. Not sure if this is related. Thanks for your answers! On my system it is indeed quite bad, the font is smaller than before and aliased which makes it tiring to read. I am using ati driver. Does someone knows how to set the font, or revert to the old one? Cheers, Chris.
Re: [Mageia-dev] new fonts?
On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 11:30:49 +0200 eatdirt dirt...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, is that a bug that all default fonts on kdm, firefox, terminal titles changed to an ugly one? ;) I noticed the change too on my system - Mageia 3/Cauldron x86-64 , KDE 4.9.1, Core i3 machine. Regards, Shlomi Fish cheers, chris. -- - Shlomi Fish http://www.shlomifish.org/ Original Riddles - http://www.shlomifish.org/puzzles/ rindolf I am not solvable. I am Turing hard. Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .
Re: [Mageia-dev] new fonts?
Hi guys, The changes in default fonts might be related to recent fonts-ttf-liberation update. Since 2.00, this package ships fontconfig settings that by default substitute Liberation fonts for sans-serif, serif and mono families. This is done by /etc/fonts/conf.d/59-liberation-*.conf files (in fact, just symlinks to /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/59-liberation-*.conf). I am too much accustomed to my usual font set, so I trashed those symlinks immediately :) Cheers, Mitya
Re: [Mageia-dev] new fonts?
On 24/09/12 14:58, Dimitri wrote: Hi guys, The changes in default fonts might be related to recent fonts-ttf-liberation update. Since 2.00, this package ships fontconfig settings that by default substitute Liberation fonts for sans-serif, serif and mono families. This is done by /etc/fonts/conf.d/59-liberation-*.conf files (in fact, just symlinks to /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/59-liberation-*.conf). I am too much accustomed to my usual font set, so I trashed those symlinks immediately :) Fantastic, thanks for the tips. I think we should pay attention to the default fonts we will choose for mga3, indeed. That's the very first reflex of any user, either you like, or you don't, that would even deserve a contest may be. cheers, chris.
Re: [Mageia-dev] new fonts?
On Mon, 2012-09-24 at 15:57 +0200, EatDirt wrote: I think we should pay attention to the default fonts we will choose for mga3, indeed. That's the very first reflex of any user, either you like, or you don't, that would even deserve a contest may be. Reaction to typefaces depends on several factors - . familiarity (e.g. Europeans are generally more familiar with reading long texts in sans serif faces than Americans); . eyesight, contrast, lighting and viewing distance (this is especially true of whether antialiasing is considered a huge, 10,000 times improvement in readability or is considered an ugly distraction; . rendering quality - irregularities tend to be distracting and cause fatigue but people often say they like them at first; . culture (e.g. Cyrillic / Fraktur / Antiqua); . default font sizes and inter-linear spacing - unfortunately many applications don't give control over inter-linear spacing, showing that the programmers do not have a background in typography :-) There's a whole bunch of research that's been done around each of these factors (and more). You won't find a single set of fonts that works for everyone, and a popular vote probably isn't the best way forward to choose one. On the other foot, a community effort around font packaging and improving themes would likely have a huge benefit. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml The barefoot typographer - http://www.holoweb.net/~liam/
Re: [Mageia-dev] new fonts?
On Mon, 2012-09-24 at 18:34 +0100, brian.sm...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I assume any default font should have the complete UTF8 Character set? This isn't really meaningful, because of unification - fonts implement glyphs, not characters, and there are a great many Unicode characters that represent multiple glyphs, mostly as a result of CJK (Chinese/Chinese/Japanese/Korean) unification. So the right answer is to have a set of fonts that overall provides the necessary coverage for scripts and languages that Mageia's users actually use. Are the Liberation Font's UTF8 Complete? Strictly speaking UTF-8 is an encoding, a way of representing 32-bit integers in as few bytes (octets) as possible while still working with text tools; those 32-bit integers are Unicode codepoints, indices into a table of characters published by the Unicode Consortium. Currently the table actually only needs I think 18 bits (more than 16 and less than 24 at any rate), but is still growing. Wikipedia says, [[ The Liberation family supports only the Latin, Greek, and Cyrillic alphabets, leaving out many writing systems. Extension to other writing systems is prevented by its unique licensing terms ]] [1] However, asking for a single typeface to have a unified design for Vietnamese, Hindi, Traditional Chinese, Simplified Chinese, Japanese, English, French, Czech, Cree, ... is a tall order. You'd also have a rather large font file (probably between 500M and a gigabyte). So, the best approach is to choose smaller fonts that work OK with each other and give the best coverage. Hope this helps. I responded to more than your question to try help others see the issues too :-) Liam [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_fonts -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org freenode/#xml
Re: [Mageia-dev] new fonts?
On 2012-09-24 16:58 (GMT+0400) Dimitri composed: The changes in default fonts might be related to recent fonts-ttf-liberation update. Since 2.00, this package ships fontconfig settings that by default substitute Liberation fonts for sans-serif, serif and mono families. This is done by /etc/fonts/conf.d/59-liberation-*.conf files (in fact, just symlinks to /usr/share/fontconfig/conf.avail/59-liberation-*.conf). I am too much accustomed to my usual font set, so I trashed those symlinks immediately :) I keep my fontconfig priorities for serif, sans serif and monospace families set to the Google Droids, regardless what's been chosen by the distro. Running at 120 DPI or higher, all the legibly large enough sizes look great without much impact from font smoothing settings. The sizes too small to read anyway don't matter. -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Re: [Mageia-dev] new fonts?
On 2012-09-24 13:21 (GMT-0400) Liam R E Quin composed: . rendering quality - irregularities tend to be distracting and cause fatigue but people often say they like them at first; Rendering quality is highly influenced by screen pixel density. The higher the density, the more pixels are required to render any glyph at a given physical size. As density increases, the effects of smoothing techniques diminish, eventually having no impact if density is high enough or viewing distance is longer. Kerning, character spacing an accuracy also improve as density increases, causing glyphs to render more faithfully to their designs. The converse is that on low density screens, there's more variability that readers can be sensitive to. Those who are sensitive do well to upgrade to higher quality (higher pixel density) display devices. Even the apparent 20% jump from 100 to 120 can be striking. The reality is the density increase is a function of the squares of 100 and 120: 44%! -- The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant words are persuasive. Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation) Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks! Felix Miata *** http://fm.no-ip.com/
Re: [Mageia-dev] new fonts?
On Sunday 23 Sep 2012 11:30:49 eatdirt wrote: Hi, is that a bug that all default fonts on kdm, firefox, terminal titles changed to an ugly one? ;) cheers, chris. I noticed the change... but on my machine it looks like an improvement :-) I don't know if just my eyesight or the change is having different effects on different set ups. I'm using X86-64 with a Radeon graphics card
