Re: [Mailman-Developers] Author_is_list option in upcoming mailman 2.1.16
On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Barry Warsaw ba...@list.org wrote: End users just care about how the email looks in their mail readers. I'm concerned that this will be a nice, RFC-compliant feature that makes things easy and workable for all the automated systems involved, but will look horrible to end-users and just make them upset. If that's the case then IMHO, it a failure. OTOH, maybe we won't know for sure until it gets *a lot* more testing. But I think it's a mistake to say well, we just have to force MUA developers to catch up. As we've seen with something presumably as simple as reply-to-list, it (almost) never happens. We as developers and standards people often avoid engaging UI people (MUAs, in our case) and issues specifically because it's a space that doesn't follow rules, which is what we're used to. That partition allows us to be able to declare victory on our side of the line most of the time, but it leaves us with the frustrations you've described here. I wonder how long we can hold out before we start trying to drag them into our conversations, which might be the only way to solve these pain points long term. It seems to me that Gmail, Yahoo Mail, Thunderbird, etc., must have either a team or an individual that spends time thinking about and testing user-visible solutions to these problems, so perhaps it's time to start asking them for help. -MSK ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Developers] Author_is_list option in upcoming mailman 2.1.16
Murray S. Kucherawy writes: I wonder how long we can hold out before we start trying to drag [the MUA developers] into our conversations, which might be the only way to solve these pain points long term. It seems to me that Gmail, Yahoo Mail, Thunderbird, etc., must have either a team or an individual that spends time thinking about and testing user-visible solutions to these problems, so perhaps it's time to start asking them for help. To be honest, I don't think they really care. Even larsi, who never saw an internet-draft he wouldn't implement, is not terribly systematic about it -- as long as things are smooth between Gnus users, well, tough luck for the rest of the world. When I was talking to MUA developers about best practices for dealing with reply-to-list the basic response was we already have a function for that or sounds great, patches welcome. The Mozilla people were clearly much more interested in features like calendars and vcards. I think it's important we get started on it (and maybe I can contribute something now that GSoC is almost over), but I don't have much hope that the MUA developers will put a high priority on it. It's not really in their purview (see Franck Martin's comments about MUA irrelevance in this thread, for example, and he's not even an MUA developer). And of course the worst offender is Microsoft, which AFAICS is somewhat actively undermining the RFC 822 standard for reasons I don't understand. Regards, ___ Mailman-Developers mailing list Mailman-Developers@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-developers Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-developers%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-developers/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
