Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Mark Sapiro]

On 11/03/2013 01:37 PM, Paul Boddie wrote:
> 
> Please take another look at your favourite pages and let me know if anything 
> has gone badly wrong in the conversion process.
> 
> With this I hope we are nearing the point of final migration.


I've looked and it seems really good. I agree that we are very close if
not there on everything that matters to me.

Thank you Paul for this work.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Paul Boddie]

Hello,

Time has passed and some more time has been spent on the wiki migration. As 
always, the results can be found here:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/

The archived content now reflects the real wiki from yesterday - 2nd November 
- so the translated content should reflect the existing wiki fairly accurately 
and include recent edits.

Dates and History
-

One matter that was not addressed at all before now was that of accurate date 
information in the page histories. I needed to patch the MoinMoin package 
installer for this, and there turns out to be a good reason why it doesn't 
support preserving the editing dates: the edit log would need sorting 
afterwards, and that would probably need to be done offline. Moreover, taking 
different packages of pages and combining them requires the histories from the 
different packages to be merged, so I had to write a script to do this.

The result is that, subject to time zone ambiguity, the edit dates should be 
accurate in the converted content and the RecentChanges should reflect what 
you see on the current Confluence wiki.

Users
-

Last time, I reintroduced user details to the migrated wiki, but one item that 
remains is that of actually importing users. To illustrate user import, I 
imported four recent users of the wiki that happened to be useful for testing 
various aspects of the conversion. For example:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/DEV/A_5_minute_guide_to_get_the_Mailman_web_UI_running

Here, you'll see that the comments at the bottom of the page bear the name of 
the commenter, who helpfully supplied some non-ASCII characters in her name so 
that I could encounter some problems with MoinMoin's command option handling. 
:-)

As I mentioned last time, the method of acquiring user profile information is 
not as satisfactory as that of getting the page data out of Confluence, but I 
imagine that people will want to review the user list, exclude obvious 
spammers, and then send out account reset e-mails - there must be some e-mail 
experts here willing to do that nicely ;-) - and so the process will 
necessarily involve some manual work.

Redirects
-

Also done last time were redirects:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/x/AgA3
http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=3604482

This time, I've added support for various other Confluence URL paths, such as 
searching:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/dosearchsite.action?searchQuery.queryString=exim&searchQuery.spaceKey=DOC

The special PDF export action is supported, although this really requires 
Java, fop, xsltproc and DocBook XSL resources:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/pages/doexportpage.action?pageId=3604482&type=TYPE_PDF

Confluence seems to use this kind of URL as well:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/spaces/flyingpdf/pdfpageexport.action?pageId=3604482

And there's also the highly sophisticated dashboard action (which just 
redirects to the front page):

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/dashboard.action

Comments


I have reviewed the import of comments and improved the functionality of the 
MoinMoin extensions supporting new comments. I gave an example of comments 
above in the "Users" section.

New comments assign complete ownership of a comment to the author, but that 
author must have write access to the page on which the comment will appear 
(even though they are actually making a subpage). Existing comments from 
Confluence already assign ownership to the author of the comment when 
converted.

To Do
-

I always provide a list of things that still need doing, so here are some 
familiar items:

It might also be nice to have a list of attachments on pages that have them, 
and I will take a look to see how Confluence tends to present such things. 
(I'm not sure if this is a great priority, though. You can always follow the 
"Attachments" link to see what's there.)

User home pages should probably be populated and have things like profile 
images (if provided), activity indicators, and maybe the dashboard 
functionality should be emulated, too. (People agreed that this wasn't a 
priority.)

In Conclusion
-

As I have mentioned previously, the source code for the converter can be found 
here:

http://hgweb.boddie.org.uk/ConfluenceConverter/

Please take another look at your favourite pages and let me know if anything 
has gone badly wrong in the conversion process.

With this I hope we are nearing the point of final migration.

Paul
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Terri Oda]

On 07/26/2013 06:23 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

I'm only one data point, but pretty much the only thing I use the
dashboard for is seeing the recently updated pages, both to see what's
going on and check for spam. I'm perfectly happy with Moin's
RecentChanges page for this.


I guess I can be data point number 2: I also mostly use the dashboard 
for seeing recent stuff, either what's going on or spam, so 
RecentChanges will also work for me too.


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Paul Boddie]

On Saturday 27. July 2013 02.23.41 Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> I'm only one data point, but pretty much the only thing I use the
> dashboard for is seeing the recently updated pages, both to see what's
> going on and check for spam. I'm perfectly happy with Moin's
> RecentChanges page for this.

Right. It might be nice to have a per-user RecentChanges macro showing only a 
particular user's edits, and I've been meaning to look into this for a while, 
anyway.

[...]

> Cool on the comments support.
> 
> On the ACLs, are you assuming acl_hierarchic is True or are you just
> duplicating the parent page's ACL?

I actually set an ACL that lets only the author of the comment edit the 
comment subpage. This obviously doesn't let others add replies to an 
individual comment, however, so maybe a more sophisticated approach is 
necessary.

Paul
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jul 26, 2013, at 02:55 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Sounds good. Re: timing, I am off line much of now through Aug 30, so
>for me at least, 'Test, test, test' shouldn't begin before September.

Works for me too.  What I'll do in the meantime is get the ball rolling with
infrastructure, try to get an IP assigned, and get the wiki-new.list.org
hostname assigned to it.  We can do all the rest later.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Mark Sapiro]

On 07/26/2013 03:38 PM, Paul Boddie wrote:
> On Friday 26. July 2013 21.59.14 Barry Warsaw wrote:
> 
>> What features are missing from Moin that would prevent us from migrating,
>> or make it more painful than staying with Confluence for now?
> 
> I think only the actual wiki editors can answer this. I imagine that the 
> dashboard features would be nice to have.


I'm only one data point, but pretty much the only thing I use the
dashboard for is seeing the recently updated pages, both to see what's
going on and check for spam. I'm perfectly happy with Moin's
RecentChanges page for this.


[...]
> I've now made some support for comments, including adding new ones. It might 
> be wise to add textcha integration for this, though, but I already support 
> ACLs and thus don't allow the posting of comments on pages where a user 
> cannot 
> write to that page, even though the comments are actually subpages.


Cool on the comments support.

On the ACLs, are you assuming acl_hierarchic is True or are you just
duplicating the parent page's ACL?

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Mark Sapiro]

On 07/26/2013 03:59 PM, Paul Boddie wrote:
> 
> On the subject of home pages, users can create their own after creating an 
> account, but it is also possible to impose textchas on the registration 
> process itself.


That is in fact what I do. I have one TextCha question, "What is the
account creator password?" and the answer is given to people out of band.

I also have a SuperGroup whose members are all the other groups, and
(indirect) members of the SuperGroup are exempt from TextChas.

This way, one needs to establish contact before registering, and once
registered and added to at least one group, they can proceed with
minimal hinderance.


> The global ACLs may also prevent the creation of home pages 
> through things like the MyPages action, but I haven't really checked this.


I'm pretty sure this is the case.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Paul Boddie]

On Friday 26. July 2013 23.55.00 Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> Sounds good. Re: timing, I am off line much of now through Aug 30, so
> for me at least, 'Test, test, test' shouldn't begin before September.

Leaving any serious activity for a few weeks would suit me, too.

[...]

> My Moin installation is dumb in this respect. I don't remember why we
> wanted to set it up the way we did, maybe so a user could create their
> own home page before being added to a group, but in this age of wiki
> spam it's probably not a good idea.

On the subject of home pages, users can create their own after creating an 
account, but it is also possible to impose textchas on the registration 
process itself. The global ACLs may also prevent the creation of home pages 
through things like the MyPages action, but I haven't really checked this.

Paul
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Paul Boddie]

On Friday 26. July 2013 23.25.12 Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Jul 26, 2013, at 02:05 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> I think the general plan is to host the wiki on the python.org
> infrastructure.  They're already hosting the Python and Jython wikis and
> Noah seemed amenable to the idea at the last Pycon.
> 
> If there are no objections, I'll reach out to the infrastructure team to
> see what they'd need.  I'll have to contact John and Matt to do any
> required DNS changes.  I think the rough task list would be:
> 
> * Get python.org to assign us an IP address
> * Map wiki-new.list.org to that IP
> * Freeze all edits on wiki.list.org
> * Have Paul do one more migration that he's happy with
> * Get pdo to install that on wiki-new
> * Test, test, test
> * Move the DNS for wiki.list.org to the new IP
> * Decommission the Confluence instance

We can iterate on the migration a few times before freezing and doing the 
final migration. The testing part is the important part, of course. ;-)

> >I think we can do alright with a switch. I support a Moin wiki for my
> >bike club, and I think we'll be OK. I have a bit to add below.
> 
> Would you and/or Paul want shell access to the new Moin instance?  I don't
> know if that's possible, but if you do, I'd make that part of my request to
> infrastructure.

It would probably help a lot.

> >There is an issue on my own Moin wiki in that people who are logged in
> >but not members of any group can create and edit pages which don't have
> >ACLs. At one point I was discovered by wiki spammers. I 'fixed' that by
> >using Moin's textcha facility to effectively require a password to
> >create an account. It could be solved more readily by not giving 'Known'
> >users default (or any) write access.
> 
> Is that possible?  I think we'd definitely want to do that.  Also, I guess
> 'unknown' users would also not have any write access, correct?

We can define a group of trusted editors and give them full rights. For 
everyone else, there is a range of options including making them ask for 
permission on the mailing list (or mailing an administrator directly) before 
being able to write anything, making them log in and possibly having "textcha" 
(challenge question) verification of their edits, or just having textchas 
preventing people from spamming.

(Textchas don't work well on the Python Wiki at the moment because the 
questions seem to be easily guessed and haven't been fixed to address this, as 
far as I can tell.)

I see that Mark has probably summarised this better than I have. :-)

> >> I guess we won't be able to use tiny urls after the migration though,
> >> right?
> >
> >I think that's right, and it's unfortunate, but I can live with it (or
> >implement a tiny url feature for Moin).
> 
> Yay for open source! :)  I love the tiny urls.  I think it would make a
> great addition to Moin in general.

Some kind of "compression" of a page name might be enough to provide a similar 
feature without requiring some kind of special index, but something using an 
index could also be done if necessary.

Paul
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Paul Boddie]

On Friday 26. July 2013 21.59.14 Barry Warsaw wrote:
>

[Stuff already discussed]

> What features are missing from Moin that would prevent us from migrating,
> or make it more painful than staying with Confluence for now?

I think only the actual wiki editors can answer this. I imagine that the 
dashboard features would be nice to have.

[...]

> I'm happy with just asking everyone to reset their password.  We can't do
> it on the demo site because email is disabled currently.

I think e-mail is enabled on the python.org system, so they should be able to 
reset their passwords.

[...]

> >I always provide a list of things that still need doing, so here are some
> >familiar items:
> >
> >The way comments are presented on pages still needs improving. I may write
> >a macro to include the comment pages in a nicer way and maybe even to
> >allow new comments to be added. Meanwhile, the comment pages should now
> >only be editable by their original authors (by applying ACLs).

I've now made some support for comments, including adding new ones. It might 
be wise to add textcha integration for this, though, but I already support 
ACLs and thus don't allow the posting of comments on pages where a user cannot 
write to that page, even though the comments are actually subpages.

> >It might also be nice to have a list of attachments on pages that have
> >them, and I will take a look to see how Confluence tends to present such
> >things.
> >
> >User home pages should probably be populated and have things like profile
> >images (if provided), activity indicators, and maybe the dashboard
> >functionality should be emulated, too.
> 
> Would this work be better tackled before an official migration or can some
> of these things be done after the fact?

I don't think making user pages would be too difficult, but populating them 
with fancy features would probably end up happening later.

Paul
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Mark Sapiro]

On 07/26/2013 02:25 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Jul 26, 2013, at 02:05 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> If there are no objections, I'll reach out to the infrastructure team to see
> what they'd need.  I'll have to contact John and Matt to do any required DNS
> changes.  I think the rough task list would be:
> 
> * Get python.org to assign us an IP address
> * Map wiki-new.list.org to that IP
> * Freeze all edits on wiki.list.org
> * Have Paul do one more migration that he's happy with
> * Get pdo to install that on wiki-new
> * Test, test, test
> * Move the DNS for wiki.list.org to the new IP
> * Decommission the Confluence instance


Sounds good. Re: timing, I am off line much of now through Aug 30, so
for me at least, 'Test, test, test' shouldn't begin before September.


> Would you and/or Paul want shell access to the new Moin instance?  I don't
> know if that's possible, but if you do, I'd make that part of my request to
> infrastructure.


It might be helpful, but the more critical things are that probably at
least one of us should be in the superuser list (a configuration
setting) and there should be an AdminGroup with all rights and we should
be in it.

Of course we can do this with shell access to the configuration file.


>> There is an issue on my own Moin wiki in that people who are logged in
>> but not members of any group can create and edit pages which don't have
>> ACLs. At one point I was discovered by wiki spammers. I 'fixed' that by
>> using Moin's textcha facility to effectively require a password to
>> create an account. It could be solved more readily by not giving 'Known'
>> users default (or any) write access.
> 
> Is that possible?  I think we'd definitely want to do that.  Also, I guess
> 'unknown' users would also not have any write access, correct?


My Moin installation is dumb in this respect. I don't remember why we
wanted to set it up the way we did, maybe so a user could create their
own home page before being added to a group, but in this age of wiki
spam it's probably not a good idea.

And yes, we can be as loose or as tight as we want. The page at
 gives the story, but the
short answer is we can require a user to be logged in and a member of
some specific group before they can create or modify any content.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jul 26, 2013, at 02:05 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>> I can tell you though that my motivation to garden the current wiki is
>> pretty low, and I think I'd be more motivated to clean it up after the Moin
>> migration.  If the other wiki editors feel the same way, then we should
>> seize the opportunity to get the migration started.
>
>+1

That's encouraging! :)

I think the general plan is to host the wiki on the python.org
infrastructure.  They're already hosting the Python and Jython wikis and Noah
seemed amenable to the idea at the last Pycon.

If there are no objections, I'll reach out to the infrastructure team to see
what they'd need.  I'll have to contact John and Matt to do any required DNS
changes.  I think the rough task list would be:

* Get python.org to assign us an IP address
* Map wiki-new.list.org to that IP
* Freeze all edits on wiki.list.org
* Have Paul do one more migration that he's happy with
* Get pdo to install that on wiki-new
* Test, test, test
* Move the DNS for wiki.list.org to the new IP
* Decommission the Confluence instance

>I think we can do alright with a switch. I support a Moin wiki for my
>bike club, and I think we'll be OK. I have a bit to add below.

Would you and/or Paul want shell access to the new Moin instance?  I don't
know if that's possible, but if you do, I'd make that part of my request to
infrastructure.

>There is an issue on my own Moin wiki in that people who are logged in
>but not members of any group can create and edit pages which don't have
>ACLs. At one point I was discovered by wiki spammers. I 'fixed' that by
>using Moin's textcha facility to effectively require a password to
>create an account. It could be solved more readily by not giving 'Known'
>users default (or any) write access.

Is that possible?  I think we'd definitely want to do that.  Also, I guess
'unknown' users would also not have any write access, correct?

>> I guess we won't be able to use tiny urls after the migration though, right?
>
>I think that's right, and it's unfortunate, but I can live with it (or
>implement a tiny url feature for Moin).

Yay for open source! :)  I love the tiny urls.  I think it would make a great
addition to Moin in general.

>I think after the fact, at least for the home page stuff, is fine.

Cool.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Mark Sapiro]

On 07/26/2013 12:59 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Jul 19, 2013, at 01:15 AM, Paul Boddie wrote:
> 
>> Once again, I've had some time to push the wiki migration along. As always, 
>> the results can be found here:
>>
>> http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/
>>
>> I've updated the archived content to that of 16th July, so the translated 
>> content should reflect the existing wiki fairly accurately.
> 
> Thanks very much for continuing to work on this Paul.  I think it's looking
> great and I'd love to start coming up with a plan to migrate officially.
> Input from top wiki editors is key, so perhaps Mark, Terri, Steve and others
> can chime in.


Yes, thank you Paul. I too think it looks really good.


> I can tell you though that my motivation to garden the current
> wiki is pretty low, and I think I'd be more motivated to clean it up after the
> Moin migration.  If the other wiki editors feel the same way, then we should
> seize the opportunity to get the migration started.


+1


> What features are missing from Moin that would prevent us from migrating, or
> make it more painful than staying with Confluence for now?


I think we can do alright with a switch. I support a Moin wiki for my
bike club, and I think we'll be OK. I have a bit to add below.


>> But the solution above may be good enough: it just creates an account for
>> each existing user and employs the same username, full name (or alias) and
>> e-mail address, and sets a random password. It also obtains the URL of any
>> profile picture, with these user details obtained by scraping the home page
>> of each user on the existing wiki. How people then log into their accounts is
>> something we can decide: e-mailing the random password is not exactly secure,
>> but they could reset their account in the MoinMoin interface instead (which
>> involves a reset e-mail that isn't too secure either, but it's the slightly
>> better choice).


The reset email shouldn't be a big issue if the user is prepared to
receive and act on it. The reset token is only valid during the window
from when it is sent to when it is used.


> I'm happy with just asking everyone to reset their password.  We can't do it
> on the demo site because email is disabled currently.
> 
> What can we do about setting up the ACLs for editing?  I'm happy if we start
> by enabling a small group to start with and having folks who want to edit
> pages re-request enabling their editing permissions.


It's fairly simple to add ACLs to pages that give one or more groups
various access rights. Groups are just wiki pages with a list of the
login names of the members of that group and so are administered by the
members of the group that can modify that page.

I think we can deal with that by making a small 'admin' group and then
having people at large request permission (i.e. addition to the larger
'authors' group as they do now.

There is an issue on my own Moin wiki in that people who are logged in
but not members of any group can create and edit pages which don't have
ACLs. At one point I was discovered by wiki spammers. I 'fixed' that by
using Moin's textcha facility to effectively require a password to
create an account. It could be solved more readily by not giving 'Known'
users default (or any) write access.


>> One thing we also discussed were the redirects that occur for "tiny URLs" 
>> and 
>> where page identifiers are employed. For example:
>>
>> http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/x/AgA3
>> http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=3604482
>>
>> A mapping of page identifiers is extracted from the exported data, and this 
>> mapping is used to support a simple redirection script that looks up the 
>> appropriate page name and redirects to that page. One thing it does not yet 
>> do is to redirect to a specific revision, however.
> 
> I think that's fine.  I don't mind if redirects to anything other than the
> latest revision is enabled.  Mark might disagree.


I do not disagree. I see no need to redirect those URLs to other than
the current page.


> I guess we won't be able to use tiny urls after the migration though, right?


I think that's right, and it's unfortunate, but I can live with it (or
implement a tiny url feature for Moin).


>> I always provide a list of things that still need doing, so here are some 
>> familiar items:
>>
>> The way comments are presented on pages still needs improving. I may write a 
>> macro to include the comment pages in a nicer way and maybe even to allow 
>> new 
>> comments to be added. Meanwhile, the comment pages should now only be 
>> editable by their original authors (by applying ACLs).
>>
>> It might also be nice to have a list of attachments on pages that have them, 
>> and I will take a look to see how Confluence tends to present such things.
>>
>> User home pages should probably be populated and have things like profile 
>> images (if provided), activity indicators, and maybe the dashboard 
>> functionality should be emulated, too.
> 
> Wo

Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jul 19, 2013, at 01:15 AM, Paul Boddie wrote:

>Once again, I've had some time to push the wiki migration along. As always, 
>the results can be found here:
>
>http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/
>
>I've updated the archived content to that of 16th July, so the translated 
>content should reflect the existing wiki fairly accurately.

Thanks very much for continuing to work on this Paul.  I think it's looking
great and I'd love to start coming up with a plan to migrate officially.
Input from top wiki editors is key, so perhaps Mark, Terri, Steve and others
can chime in.  I can tell you though that my motivation to garden the current
wiki is pretty low, and I think I'd be more motivated to clean it up after the
Moin migration.  If the other wiki editors feel the same way, then we should
seize the opportunity to get the migration started.

What features are missing from Moin that would prevent us from migrating, or
make it more painful than staying with Confluence for now?

>But the solution above may be good enough: it just creates an account for
>each existing user and employs the same username, full name (or alias) and
>e-mail address, and sets a random password. It also obtains the URL of any
>profile picture, with these user details obtained by scraping the home page
>of each user on the existing wiki. How people then log into their accounts is
>something we can decide: e-mailing the random password is not exactly secure,
>but they could reset their account in the MoinMoin interface instead (which
>involves a reset e-mail that isn't too secure either, but it's the slightly
>better choice).

I'm happy with just asking everyone to reset their password.  We can't do it
on the demo site because email is disabled currently.

What can we do about setting up the ACLs for editing?  I'm happy if we start
by enabling a small group to start with and having folks who want to edit
pages re-request enabling their editing permissions.

>One thing we also discussed were the redirects that occur for "tiny URLs" and 
>where page identifiers are employed. For example:
>
>http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/x/AgA3
>http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=3604482
>
>A mapping of page identifiers is extracted from the exported data, and this 
>mapping is used to support a simple redirection script that looks up the 
>appropriate page name and redirects to that page. One thing it does not yet 
>do is to redirect to a specific revision, however.

I think that's fine.  I don't mind if redirects to anything other than the
latest revision is enabled.  Mark might disagree.

I guess we won't be able to use tiny urls after the migration though, right?

>I always provide a list of things that still need doing, so here are some 
>familiar items:
>
>The way comments are presented on pages still needs improving. I may write a 
>macro to include the comment pages in a nicer way and maybe even to allow new 
>comments to be added. Meanwhile, the comment pages should now only be 
>editable by their original authors (by applying ACLs).
>
>It might also be nice to have a list of attachments on pages that have them, 
>and I will take a look to see how Confluence tends to present such things.
>
>User home pages should probably be populated and have things like profile 
>images (if provided), activity indicators, and maybe the dashboard 
>functionality should be emulated, too.

Would this work be better tackled before an official migration or can some of
these things be done after the fact?

>I hope this is of interest!

It *is*, very much so.  Thanks again!

-Barry
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[Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Paul Boddie]

Hello,

Once again, I've had some time to push the wiki migration along. As always, 
the results can be found here:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/

I've updated the archived content to that of 16th July, so the translated 
content should reflect the existing wiki fairly accurately.

Users
-

Big changes this time have happened around the handling of user information. I 
have modified the MoinMoin package installer to preserve author/editor 
details, a capability which for some reason had been removed from MoinMoin. I 
also need to preserve timestamps as well so that the history of each page 
makes a bit more sense, but at this point you should be able to see 
individual contributions:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/DEV/LogoSubmissions?action=info

The XML export archives do not contain user details over and above who edited 
which page (or who uploaded which attachment), but I have written scripts to 
obtain usernames from the archives, to fetch user details from the existing 
wiki, and to create accounts for users in MoinMoin. An alternative might 
involve getting a database query run on the server to provide user details:

https://confluence.atlassian.com/display/CONFKB/How+to+Export+User+Data+to+CSV+in+Confluence

There's also some kind of export functionality in Atlassian OnDemand, whatever 
that is:

https://confluence.atlassian.com/display/AOD/Exporting+wiki+data

But the solution above may be good enough: it just creates an account for each 
existing user and employs the same username, full name (or alias) and e-mail 
address, and sets a random password. It also obtains the URL of any profile 
picture, with these user details obtained by scraping the home page of each 
user on the existing wiki. How people then log into their accounts is 
something we can decide: e-mailing the random password is not exactly secure, 
but they could reset their account in the MoinMoin interface instead (which 
involves a reset e-mail that isn't too secure either, but it's the slightly 
better choice).

Redirects
-

One thing we also discussed were the redirects that occur for "tiny URLs" and 
where page identifiers are employed. For example:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/x/AgA3
http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=3604482

A mapping of page identifiers is extracted from the exported data, and this 
mapping is used to support a simple redirection script that looks up the 
appropriate page name and redirects to that page. One thing it does not yet 
do is to redirect to a specific revision, however.

To Do
-

I always provide a list of things that still need doing, so here are some 
familiar items:

The way comments are presented on pages still needs improving. I may write a 
macro to include the comment pages in a nicer way and maybe even to allow new 
comments to be added. Meanwhile, the comment pages should now only be 
editable by their original authors (by applying ACLs).

It might also be nice to have a list of attachments on pages that have them, 
and I will take a look to see how Confluence tends to present such things.

User home pages should probably be populated and have things like profile 
images (if provided), activity indicators, and maybe the dashboard 
functionality should be emulated, too.

In Conclusion
-

As I have mentioned previously, the source code for the converter can be found 
here:

http://hgweb.boddie.org.uk/ConfluenceConverter/

Please take a look at your favourite pages and let me know where improvements 
can be made to the conversion process. I usually apologise for pages with 
question marks at the end of their names, which is a lot of the FAQ, but I've 
implemented a mod_rewrite hack that lets you view them, so if your passion is 
for FAQ fidelity then please take this opportunity to have a look.

I hope this is of interest!

Paul
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jun 17, 2013, at 06:57 PM, Paul Boddie wrote:

>I'm not sure these tiny links are in the Confluence dump, but if there's an 
>algorithm to generate them, then maybe we can provide a similar mapping 
>resource.

Just as a general feature request, it would be cool if Moin supported tiny
urls.  I use them in email too!

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Paul Boddie]

On Monday 17 June 2013 18:22:55 Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
> Every page (I think) in the wiki has three URLs.
>
> E.g.
> 1. 
> 2. 
> 3. 
>
> I gather that in the migration to Moin, the pages will have names/URLs
> like 1. but with spaces instead of pluses. This is fine, and if
> necessary a mapping from old to new URLs can be easily constructed.

I had imagined that browsers will convert to spaces in form 1, anyway, given 
that "+" is traditionally the encoding for a space, but it appears that 
Firefox may be encoding "+" and presenting the encoded URL to the server. 
Thus, the following fails:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/DOC/Frequently+Asked+Questions

Maybe some kind of rewrite rule could be used, or I could generate alias pages 
which redirect to the real pages.

> Form 2. is trickier. Confluence seems to use somewhat arbitrarily either
> 1. or 2. in internal links, so form 2. is sometimes seen in list posts
> referring to FAQ articles.

The page/version identifiers are used by the converter, and they even appear 
in the raw text of the Moin pages as a "pragma", but we'd probably extract 
all these correspondences and deploy some kind of mapping resource that takes 
an identifier and performs a redirect to the appropriate Moin page.

> Form 3. is what Confluence calls "Tiny Link: (useful for email)" and is
> available in the pages 'info' and (along with form 1.) in the "Link to
> this Page" Tool dialog. I use this all the time in list posts referring
> to FAQ articles.
>
> I don't know what info is available in the Confluence dump, but it would
> be nice to have at least the 'tiny link' and maybe the pageId info so
> that mappings and maybe eventually redirections can be constructed to
> get from the old URLs to the new pages.
>
> As I said, I don't think it's a show stopper, but it would be helpful.

I'm not sure these tiny links are in the Confluence dump, but if there's an 
algorithm to generate them, then maybe we can provide a similar mapping 
resource.

> Regarding the article numbers appearing in section 4 only: in the
> FAQWizard, all the articles were numbered. When Teri converted the
> FAQWizard, she dropped the numbers from the page titles. This proved
> controversial and Duncan Drury added them back, but only in section 4.

The history of such matters is always interesting. :-)

Paul
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Mark Sapiro]

On 06/17/2013 08:13 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> 
> That would be fantastic, thanks.  Let's wait for Mark's feedback and then we
> can start thinking about next steps.


I am traveling and visiting family through the end of the month and
haven't been following this too closely, but there is only one issue I'm
concerned about and that's URLs to FAQ pages in archived list mail.

It's not a show stopper. We had the same issue when we converted from
the FAQWizard, and it didn't seem to be a big deal, but here it is.

Every page (I think) in the wiki has three URLs.

E.g.
1. 
2. 
3. 

I gather that in the migration to Moin, the pages will have names/URLs
like 1. but with spaces instead of pluses. This is fine, and if
necessary a mapping from old to new URLs can be easily constructed.

Form 2. is trickier. Confluence seems to use somewhat arbitrarily either
1. or 2. in internal links, so form 2. is sometimes seen in list posts
referring to FAQ articles.

Form 3. is what Confluence calls "Tiny Link: (useful for email)" and is
available in the pages 'info' and (along with form 1.) in the "Link to
this Page" Tool dialog. I use this all the time in list posts referring
to FAQ articles.

I don't know what info is available in the Confluence dump, but it would
be nice to have at least the 'tiny link' and maybe the pageId info so
that mappings and maybe eventually redirections can be constructed to
get from the old URLs to the new pages.

As I said, I don't think it's a show stopper, but it would be helpful.

Regarding the article numbers appearing in section 4 only: in the
FAQWizard, all the articles were numbered. When Teri converted the
FAQWizard, she dropped the numbers from the page titles. This proved
controversial and Duncan Drury added them back, but only in section 4.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Paul Boddie]

On Monday 17 June 2013 17:13:01 Barry Warsaw wrote:
>
> Oh, I'm just pining for Guido's old FAQwizard.  It was nice to be able to
> just add questions and answers, with a minimal amount of categorization and
> ordering, and then have them all collected and formatted correctly.  It's
> not that big of a deal - I was mostly wondering how other projects
> maintained their FAQ.

The FAQ wizard: those were the days! :-)

One thing I forgot about was the Python Wiki's "Asking for help" page, which 
seems to have been broken after the restoration of that wiki:

http://wiki.python.org/moin/Asking_for_Help

A similar thing is done by MoinMoin:

http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinBugs

The person with the question (or bug in the latter case) makes a new page 
using the form given for that purpose. They then fill out the template and 
save the page. The page will then appear in the list of subpages on the 
original page.

Again, this lacks control over things like ordering, and it's arguably one 
step too many - it would be better to just be able to write a question into a 
box and submit it - so perhaps something more sophisticated would be nice. I 
have been working on a forms solution for Moin, and it probably isn't quite 
ready, but maybe I can just finish it off and give it a spin.

Paul
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jun 16, 2013, at 08:17 PM, Paul Boddie wrote:

>> * Once we migrate we can probably get rid of the spaces.  I think that's a
>>   Confluence-ism that doesn't translate as well to Moin.  That should be
>> easy enough to do manually, right?
>
>The only apparent purpose of the spaces is to separate the content and to 
>prevent name collisions, but I'm not sure there are any such collisions. 
>Maybe I can check this.

I'd be surprised if there were any collisions.  Spaces seemed to be baked into
Confluence, but for our modest wiki I never really saw much value in them.

>> * We'll want a moderate amount of theming to be more consistent with the
>> web site, but the latter also is in dire need of an update.
>>
>> * The top link on the FAQ page doesn't work.
>>   http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/DOC/Frequently%20Asked%20Questions
>
>Yes, that page has a name ending in a question mark, and the way I host this 
>publicly doesn't like that. It's a bug in mod_rewrite, and if I host it on my 
>own local Apache instance with full control over the configuration, I don't 
>get this problem. It will go away in future, I promise. :-)

Cool.  That's another thing to take notice of: are there any deployment issues
we'd need to inform the python.org admins of?  We already run a couple of
Moins on that infrastructure, so I'm hoping that it'll be pretty easy to bring
up another one.

>Actually, I could have changed the page title generation to remove trailing 
>question marks for this exercise; I already shorten page names where the 
>filesystem would otherwise be upset (Moin needing to use the page names when 
>storing pages).

That's probably fine too.

>> * Only the FAQ 4 page has sub-FAQ numbers.  (BTW, do you know of any Moin
>>   feature to make creating and managing a FAQ nicer?)
>
>I'm sorry but I don't quite follow the first sentence here. All of the pages 
>should show a list of questions in their respective section, but I see that 
>only section 4 has numbered pages. Is that what you meant?

Yep.

>The page names I take straight from Confluence, and you can see the same
>phenomenon in the existing wiki:
>
>http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Frequently+Asked+Questions

Yay. ;)

>Of other Moin sites providing FAQs, I can think of the Mercurial Wiki:
>
>http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/FAQ
>
>Here, they use the Include macro to bring in subpages providing each section, 
>and the Moin TableOfContents macro is smart enough to see all the included 
>content and make a huge TOC. They could go further and also provide edit 
>links when including content: then, if anyone wanted to edit a section or a 
>question, they would be able to find the link for the subpage and do so; 
>editing the main page only really permits editing of the Include macros and 
>little else, as seen in the raw text of the page:
>
>http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/FAQ?action=raw
>
>As you can see from the existing translation of the Mailman Wiki, it's 
>possible to include many pages without having to name them all; take a look 
>at the last line of the following, which is used to drag in all the comments 
>on the page:
>
>http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/COM/Home?action=raw
>
>The ordering seems to be fixed on the page names concerned, however, making
>it somewhat awkward if you prefer a different ordering, but we could always
>provide a variant of the Include macro that supported other ordering
>capabilities, I imagine.

Oh, I'm just pining for Guido's old FAQwizard.  It was nice to be able to just
add questions and answers, with a minimal amount of categorization and
ordering, and then have them all collected and formatted correctly.  It's not
that big of a deal - I was mostly wondering how other projects maintained
their FAQ.

>> * How will we control wiki spam on the new site?  Right now, we allow
>> anyone to sign up and read, but they must request write access.  When they
>> do, we add their userid to a special group that has write to any wiki page
>> (except the currently unused private pages).  Can we have the same setup
>> for Moin? I think it's *probably* okay to just have people re-request write
>> access after a migration (no need to automate the user/group migration I
>> think).
>
>Moin is very flexible about access control, so we can almost certainly
>support what is needed. As for registration, I think there are extensions
>that require people to verify themselves using e-mail - the Debian Wiki may
>be using this, I think - and it's probably completely feasible to support
>this kind of mechanism.
>
>As for migration, I haven't looked into this, but I don't see too many 
>problems at least replicating the Confluence accounts, even if we can't 
>migrate all the details.

Sounds good, thanks.

>(I think it's interesting to consider issues of authentication, and 
>coincidentally with respect to the Summer of Code work, I've been playing 
>with PGP-signed/encrypted interactions with Moin. So I look forward to seeing 
>what people come up with aroun

Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Paul Boddie]

On Sunday 16 June 2013 17:43:48 Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Jun 15, 2013, at 09:09 PM, Paul Boddie wrote:
> >
> >http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/
>
> It's looking great Paul.  I really appreciate your continued efforts here.
> I'd like to hear especially from Mark and the other top wiki editors what
> they think is still necessary before we can pull off the migration.  We all
> know it won't be perfect, but I think it has to be just good enough that a
> manual cleanup is tractable.  A migration would provide a good opportunity
> to do some much needed gardening. ;)

Indeed. Thanks for the feedback!

> Here are some of my thoughts:
>
> * Once we migrate we can probably get rid of the spaces.  I think that's a
>   Confluence-ism that doesn't translate as well to Moin.  That should be
> easy enough to do manually, right?

The only apparent purpose of the spaces is to separate the content and to 
prevent name collisions, but I'm not sure there are any such collisions. 
Maybe I can check this.

> * We'll want a moderate amount of theming to be more consistent with the
> web site, but the latter also is in dire need of an update.
>
> * The top link on the FAQ page doesn't work.
>   http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/DOC/Frequently%20Asked%20Questions

Yes, that page has a name ending in a question mark, and the way I host this 
publicly doesn't like that. It's a bug in mod_rewrite, and if I host it on my 
own local Apache instance with full control over the configuration, I don't 
get this problem. It will go away in future, I promise. :-)

Actually, I could have changed the page title generation to remove trailing 
question marks for this exercise; I already shorten page names where the 
filesystem would otherwise be upset (Moin needing to use the page names when 
storing pages).

> * Only the FAQ 4 page has sub-FAQ numbers.  (BTW, do you know of any Moin
>   feature to make creating and managing a FAQ nicer?)

I'm sorry but I don't quite follow the first sentence here. All of the pages 
should show a list of questions in their respective section, but I see that 
only section 4 has numbered pages. Is that what you meant? The page names I 
take straight from Confluence, and you can see the same phenomenon in the 
existing wiki:

http://wiki.list.org/display/DOC/Frequently+Asked+Questions

Of other Moin sites providing FAQs, I can think of the Mercurial Wiki:

http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/FAQ

Here, they use the Include macro to bring in subpages providing each section, 
and the Moin TableOfContents macro is smart enough to see all the included 
content and make a huge TOC. They could go further and also provide edit 
links when including content: then, if anyone wanted to edit a section or a 
question, they would be able to find the link for the subpage and do so; 
editing the main page only really permits editing of the Include macros and 
little else, as seen in the raw text of the page:

http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/FAQ?action=raw

As you can see from the existing translation of the Mailman Wiki, it's 
possible to include many pages without having to name them all; take a look 
at the last line of the following, which is used to drag in all the comments 
on the page:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/COM/Home?action=raw

The ordering seems to be fixed on the page names concerned, however, making it 
somewhat awkward if you prefer a different ordering, but we could always 
provide a variant of the Include macro that supported other ordering 
capabilities, I imagine.

> * How will we control wiki spam on the new site?  Right now, we allow
> anyone to sign up and read, but they must request write access.  When they
> do, we add their userid to a special group that has write to any wiki page
> (except the currently unused private pages).  Can we have the same setup
> for Moin? I think it's *probably* okay to just have people re-request write
> access after a migration (no need to automate the user/group migration I
> think).

Moin is very flexible about access control, so we can almost certainly support 
what is needed. As for registration, I think there are extensions that 
require people to verify themselves using e-mail - the Debian Wiki may be 
using this, I think - and it's probably completely feasible to support this 
kind of mechanism.

As for migration, I haven't looked into this, but I don't see too many 
problems at least replicating the Confluence accounts, even if we can't 
migrate all the details.

(I think it's interesting to consider issues of authentication, and 
coincidentally with respect to the Summer of Code work, I've been playing 
with PGP-signed/encrypted interactions with Moin. So I look forward to seeing 
what people come up with around such interactions with Mailman.)

> It seems to me the Moin wiki is pretty darn close.  If Mark and others
> agree, I can start the ball rolling to request the necessary resources and
> DNS shuffles.

My main concern is that I've missed some weird markup behaviour 

Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jun 15, 2013, at 09:09 PM, Paul Boddie wrote:

>It's been a couple of months or so since my last update, and I finally got 
>round to doing some more work on the content migration from Confluence to 
>MoinMoin.
>
>As always, the results can be found here:
>
>http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/

It's looking great Paul.  I really appreciate your continued efforts here.
I'd like to hear especially from Mark and the other top wiki editors what they
think is still necessary before we can pull off the migration.  We all know it
won't be perfect, but I think it has to be just good enough that a manual
cleanup is tractable.  A migration would provide a good opportunity to do some
much needed gardening. ;)

Here are some of my thoughts:

* Once we migrate we can probably get rid of the spaces.  I think that's a
  Confluence-ism that doesn't translate as well to Moin.  That should be easy
  enough to do manually, right?

* We'll want a moderate amount of theming to be more consistent with the web
  site, but the latter also is in dire need of an update.

* The top link on the FAQ page doesn't work.
  http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/DOC/Frequently%20Asked%20Questions

* Only the FAQ 4 page has sub-FAQ numbers.  (BTW, do you know of any Moin
  feature to make creating and managing a FAQ nicer?)

* How will we control wiki spam on the new site?  Right now, we allow anyone
  to sign up and read, but they must request write access.  When they do, we
  add their userid to a special group that has write to any wiki page (except
  the currently unused private pages).  Can we have the same setup for Moin?
  I think it's *probably* okay to just have people re-request write access
  after a migration (no need to automate the user/group migration I think).

It seems to me the Moin wiki is pretty darn close.  If Mark and others agree,
I can start the ball rolling to request the necessary resources and DNS
shuffles.

Cheers,
-Barry
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[Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Paul Boddie]

Hello,

It's been a couple of months or so since my last update, and I finally got 
round to doing some more work on the content migration from Confluence to 
MoinMoin.

As always, the results can be found here:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/

At the moment, I'm still using the archived content from April 2013, and I 
took the opportunity this time round to fix various parsing and translation 
issues, particularly with the Confluence wiki markup (not the XHTML variant 
that the most recent revisions of pages use), also reworking some fairly 
fundamental mechanisms involved in parsing the wiki markup.

Some previously mentioned fixes have been made:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/COM/Organizations_that_use_Mailman
(Anchors are now generated for the headings.)

Some support for macros now exists, such as for the "anchor", "color" 
and "toc" macros.

Meanwhile, some things wait for more time and energy to be spent on them:

Author information is still not preserved in the page import process, but this 
will be tested in future.

The way comments are presented on pages still needs improving.

It might also be nice to have a list of attachments on pages that have them, 
and I will take a look to see how Confluence tends to present such things.

And some things won't get fixed until the hosting is changed, such as for 
pages ending in a question mark.

As I have mentioned previously, the source code for the converter can be found 
here:

http://hgweb.boddie.org.uk/ConfluenceConverter/

Please take a look at your favourite pages and let me know where improvements 
can be made to the conversion process.

Paul
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[Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Paul Boddie]

Hello,

It's been about a month or so since my last update, so here's a quick summary 
of the work done since that time on the content migration from Confluence to 
MoinMoin.

First of all, I've uploaded a newer version of the content here:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/

Not only has the conversion itself been improved, but the underlying 
Confluence content has also been updated, so it should reflect the existing 
Wiki (at http://wiki.list.org/) a bit more accurately. I also fought with 
mod_rewrite to at least make most pages accessible, particularly the 
FAQ-related pages which contain question marks in their titles (and with 
which mod_rewrite has an as-yet-unfixed problem).

A lot of the recent work has gone into fixing the XHTML-based markup used by 
Confluence since version 4. In particular, links, lists, tables and 
preformatted regions have seen quite a bit of attention, and various pages 
should now look better due to this. For example:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/DOC/Mailman_2.1_Members_Manual

(Note that the above page has some fairly strange nested lists at the end 
where the bulletpoints have been added manually as "o" characters after 
newlines, and this is not an artifact of my conversion, but the markup is 
handled sufficiently well to retain the desired visual effect.)

Some things that were mentioned as problem areas have been improved:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/DEV/A_5_Minute_Guide_to_Get_the_Mailman_Web_UI_Running_%28only_for_development%29
(This now has properly preformatted regions, although I aim to improve the 
handling of single-line regions still further.)

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/COM/donate_to_the_GNU_Mailman_project
(This now has a fixed link, although the Confluence markup version still needs 
improving to work correctly.)

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/DOC/Frequently_Asked_Questions
(The links to questions now have tidier labels, and my mod_rewrite hacks mean 
that you can follow them on the hosted site.)

A few things haven't yet been done since the last update that were worth 
mentioning before:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/COM/Organizations_that_use_Mailman
(I still need to make sure that the anchors are generated for the headings.)

Author information is still not preserved in the page import process, but this 
will be tested in future.

I want to start implementing macro support and to tidy up the way comments are 
presented on pages. It might also be nice to have a list of attachments on 
pages that have them, and I will take a look to see how Confluence tends to 
present such things.

As I have mentioned previously, the source code for the converter can be found 
here:

http://hgweb.boddie.org.uk/ConfluenceConverter/

Please take a look at your favourite pages and let me know where improvements 
can be made to the conversion process.

Paul
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Paul Boddie]

On Thursday 07 March 2013 23:45:22 Terri Oda wrote:
> On 03/07/2013 02:58 PM, Paul Boddie wrote:
> > So, to follow up on this, I have updated the snapshot of migrated data:
> >
> > http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/
>
> Looking great, Paul!

Thanks!

> One possible item of concern is the way code snippets look here:
> http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/DEV/A%205%20Minute%20Guide%20to%20Get%20the%20M
>ailman%20Web%20UI%20Running%20%28only%20for%20development%29
>
> But I can see elsewhere that preformatted stuff is fine:
> http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/DOC/How%20can%20I%20Mass%20Subscribe%20a%20list
>%20with%20real%20names
>
> So it's possible that we'll need to just hand-fix that one page.

I think Moin has a problem with the generated syntax, and I'll try and figure 
out what that problem is because I think I've seen it elsewhere.

> Also, in browsing the FAQ for that second example, I noticed it's
> telling me that a page doesn't exist and yet giving me links to more
> pages that it claims don't exist.  I assume this is still related the
> problem you were having earlier with question marks, I think it was?
> But it may need more checking if you thought that was fully fixed.

Yes, pages with question marks won't be served because of the mod_rewrite bug, 
but I can assure you they are still there. I'll try and get my hosting 
provider to suggest an alternative, but the preferred way of serving the 
pages wouldn't suffer from this.

> Is there a plugin or something to have moin generate short links?  As
> you can tell from above, we're not exactly email-friendly (or readable)
> by default.

The %-encoding for spaces can be avoided by using underscores instead, which 
Moin recognises as being equivalent and which helps quite a bit. Short links 
could be done with redirect pages, and there may be some things that help 
with this, but I don't recall seeing anything specific.

Paul
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Terri Oda]

On 03/07/2013 02:58 PM, Paul Boddie wrote:

So, to follow up on this, I have updated the snapshot of migrated data:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/


Looking great, Paul!

One possible item of concern is the way code snippets look here:
http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/DEV/A%205%20Minute%20Guide%20to%20Get%20the%20Mailman%20Web%20UI%20Running%20%28only%20for%20development%29

But I can see elsewhere that preformatted stuff is fine:
http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/DOC/How%20can%20I%20Mass%20Subscribe%20a%20list%20with%20real%20names

So it's possible that we'll need to just hand-fix that one page.

Also, in browsing the FAQ for that second example, I noticed it's 
telling me that a page doesn't exist and yet giving me links to more 
pages that it claims don't exist.  I assume this is still related the 
problem you were having earlier with question marks, I think it was? 
But it may need more checking if you thought that was fully fixed.


Is there a plugin or something to have moin generate short links?  As 
you can tell from above, we're not exactly email-friendly (or readable) 
by default.


 Terri


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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Paul Boddie]

On Monday 25 February 2013 21:52:37 Paul Boddie wrote:
>
> Well, I'll let you know what progress I make, and I guess Barry and I will
> try and work on the hosting aspect as the process nears completion.

So, to follow up on this, I have updated the snapshot of migrated data:

http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/

Certain things have been improved since the last update:

* Tables are now supported, although it is likely that some tables will not 
appear entirely correctly, and I have yet to support cell attributes. See 
http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/DEV/LogoSubmissions for a fairly complicated 
example.

* Attachments are also supported, as illustrated in the above example.

To support tables, I'm using a table parser that I developed to handle the 
general need for a more flexible table representation, and this does seem to 
be required to handle various actual tables in the Mailman Wiki (such as the 
list in one of the logo submissions in the above example). It's documented 
here:

http://moinmo.in/ParserMarket/ImprovedTableParser

Obviously, lots of issues remain, including...

* Some links in the most recent XHTML-based revisions won't work because I 
have to set the link target properly for that particular style of links.

* In the Confluence markup, combinations of formatting markers can cause 
problems, and the conversion to XHTML format actually produced ill-formed 
XML. See http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/COM/donate_to_the_GNU_Mailman_project 
for an example.

* The issue accessing page names with question marks remains as I'm still 
using mod_rewrite in my deployment of this site, but it isn't a real problem 
for a "proper" deployment of Moin.

* Macro support still needs to be completed, although I don't think that macro 
usage is particularly diverse on the Mailman Wiki, meaning that only a few 
different ones are used. Some issues, like the handling of anchor tags on 
http://mmwiki.boddie.org.uk/COM/Organizations_that_use_Mailman need to be 
reviewed and fixed.

I aim to continue the process of developing the converter over the coming 
weeks, and I hope to bring it to a state of completion in that time.

Paul
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Paul Boddie]

On Monday 25 February 2013 19:36:16 Terri Oda wrote:
> On 13-02-25 11:26 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> > On Feb 25, 2013, at 12:01 AM, Paul Boddie wrote:
> >> I'll send another update soon. Thanks for being patient!
> >
> > Thanks for the update Paul!  Will you be at Pycon?
>
> Thanks from me too, Paul!  The wiki was driving me up the wall when I
> was doing the GSoC edits, even more so when I was contrasting it with
> the python.org one.  I'm really looking forwards to this migration!

Well, I'll let you know what progress I make, and I guess Barry and I will try 
and work on the hosting aspect as the process nears completion. I've never 
had to edit a Confluence Wiki, but I have seen quite a few upset comments 
about the migration to WYSIWYG-only editing, so maybe other people might also 
consider migration to Moin if we can pull this off convincingly.

As for PyCon, it's on the wrong continent for me, unfortunately, but I'm sure 
you have plenty of sprinting topics to keep you busy, anyway.

Paul
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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Terri Oda]

On 13-02-25 11:26 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

On Feb 25, 2013, at 12:01 AM, Paul Boddie wrote:


I'll send another update soon. Thanks for being patient!

Thanks for the update Paul!  Will you be at Pycon?



Thanks from me too, Paul!  The wiki was driving me up the wall when I 
was doing the GSoC edits, even more so when I was contrasting it with 
the python.org one.  I'm really looking forwards to this migration!


 Terri

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Re: [Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Barry Warsaw]

On Feb 25, 2013, at 12:01 AM, Paul Boddie wrote:

>I'll send another update soon. Thanks for being patient!

Thanks for the update Paul!  Will you be at Pycon?

-Barry
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[Mailman-Developers] Wiki Migration Update

[Paul Boddie]

Hello,

This is really just a quick mail to let you know that I haven't forgotten 
about my promise to look into migrating the Wiki content to MoinMoin. As 
always, you can monitor the status of the work here:

http://hgweb.boddie.org.uk/ConfluenceConverter/

I aim to upload a snapshot of the translated content to a demonstration site 
(as I did before) in the next few days, and hopefully will have improved the 
output a bit by then. Although I have mostly been focusing on the old 
Confluence Wiki markup in the past couple of days, I think that the recent 
changes have improved the "fidelity" of the old page revisions somewhat, and 
with the new XHTML-style markup being somewhat easier to deal with, I aim to 
have parity between the two formats fairly soon.

If there's anything in particular beyond basic content migration that you'd 
like to see in MoinMoin, please let me know. The markup mapping page...

http://moinmo.in/ConfluenceConverter/DevelopmentNotes/MarkupMapping

...describes some macros and other features that should be reproduced in the 
Moin-based solution, and I've attempted to incorporate existing page comments 
(as I described before) and page navigation features, but it would be useful 
to know what people currently depend upon so that any extra macros or 
extensions can be written.

I'll send another update soon. Thanks for being patient!

Paul
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