Re: [Mailman-Users] Another question.. hopefully more interesting :)

[Richard Barrett]

On Saturday, July 26, 2003, at 01:45 AM, Glenn Sieb wrote:

Hi everyone...

I currently run Mailman (2.1) (which I love.. great job, guys!), and 
use
it to run a few private lists behind SSL. I have recently been asked 
to do
some virtual domain hosting for some friends, and would like to provide
them with their own Mailman lists, should they wish.

Before commenting on the detail of what you do I make the observation 
that using Secure HTTP and private mail archives are not the same topic.

Mailman's private archive feature is based on a cookie based 
authentication scheme and the delivery of private archive pages via one 
of Mailman's CGI scripts (while public archive pages are delivered by 
the web server without the use of a MM VGI script).

Secure HTTP is a means of:

a. preventing snooping of HTTP request/response content in 
communication between the client and server.

b. authenticating the server to the client via the server-side 
certificates.

c. much less frequently used: authenticating the client to the server 
(and potentially the user) via client-side certificates.

Using HTTPS can prevent user credentials being snooped when using low 
security authentication schemes such as HTTP's Basic Authentication or 
cookie based authentication.

But MM's list archive privacy does not require HTTPS; use of HTTPS 
merely 'hardens' the protection the list privacy scheme offers.

The converse is also true; using HTTPS is not a constraint on reaching 
public archive pages.

In mm_cfg.py I have:
Commenting on this mm_cfg.py:

You should read the comments in $prefix/Mailman/Defaults.py.

DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'lists.wingfoot.org'
DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'www.wingfoot.org'
DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'https://%s/mailman/'
DEFAULT_URL is obsolete and only for compatibility reasons, is defined 
as None in Defaults.py  and should not be defined in mm_cfg.py.

DEFAULT_URL = 'https://www.wingfoot.org/mailman/'
PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL = 'https://%(hostname)s/pipermail/%(listname)s'
There is not such animal as PRIVATE_ARCHIVE_URL in the MM lexicon. This 
variable is being completely ignored.

Private archives are served by a Mailman CGI script in file 
$prefix/Mailman/Cgi/private.py which is invoked (assuming a default 
install) by the URI /mailman/private

The URL for private archive access is formed from the virtual hostname 
(the url host that is) using the DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN. The ScriptAlias 
you put in your httpd.conf file associates that URL with the Mailman 
CGI program.

PRIVATE_ARCHIVE_URL = 'https://%(hostname)s/pipermail/%(listname)s'

VIRTUAL_HOSTS = {'www.wingfoot.org':'lists.wingfoot.org',
'www.domain2.org':'lists.domain2.org',
'www.domain3.com':'lists.domain3.com',
'www.domain4.org':'lists.domain4.org'}
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST,DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)
add_virtualhost('www.domain2.org','lists.domain2.org')
add_virtualhost('www.domain3.com','lists.domain3.com')
add_virtualhost('www.domain4.org','lists.domain4.org')
Now.. when I create a list under Wingfoot, it has all the
https://www.wingfoot.org/mailman/listinfo stuff all correct. Since, 
that's
how I access my listserver, this is the expected behavior... :)

When I create one, say, from domain2, it *also* gets
https://www.domain2.org/mailman/listinfo stuff... even though the URL 
to
access that list is in http://www.domain2.org/mailman/listinfo :-/

This is no surprise as URLs for all Mailman CGI programs are formed 
from DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN

I have tried commenting out the DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN to no avail. If I
change it to http://%s/etc that works.. but then lists on Wingfoot 
break.

Which is a pretty good hint that you do not want to do this. Again read 
the comments in Defaults.py before you mess with this stuff.

btw: I assume you are restarting mailmanctl running fix_url.py after 
fixing your mm_cfg.py.

Is what I'm trying to do possible with one instance of Mailman? Should 
I
install a 2nd instance? Can I even do that?

If you want to use HTTPS for private archives and HTTP for public 
archives, the simplest approach is to say:

DEFAULT_URL = None
PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL = 'http://%(hostname)s/pipermail/%(listname)s'
DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'https://%s/mailman/'
With this, all access to Mailman CGI scripts, not just 
/mailman/private,  will go via HTTPS but the links to  public list 
archives will go via HTTP.

You could do some cute stuff with httpd.conf RewriteRules but it isn't 
really necessary to have a working solution.

As a matter of interest, what do you have in your httpd.conf for 
handling Mailman related access, thatis what Alias, ScriptAlias and 
such did you add to httpd.conf for MM.

Hopefully this is chewy-good-for-thought stuff and not a "You idjit! 
Read
the archives!" (I checked, but didn't see anything that screamed
"Conclusive".)

Thanks guys.. and again, I appreciate all the help you've been over the
past  not-quite-year, and all your hard work and effort into the 
Mailman
project. :)

Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman performance / sends per hour

[Brad Knowles]

At 7:43 PM -0400 2003/07/25, Jon Carnes wrote:

 Actually Brad, it looks like your knowledge of Sendmail is rather dated.
 Sendmail has been doing this since 2001.
   http://www.sendmail.org/~ca/email/doc8.12/RELEASE_NOTES
	This is old.  Check the RELEASE_NOTES for version 8.12.9 (which 
has a major security fix, and you are advised not to use any older 
version of 8.12), or 8.12.10.Beta2 (which I quote here and dated Jul 
1 05:08).  The only references I can find to the word "sort" anywhere 
in this file with regards to version 8.12 or later are:

8.12.7/8.12.7   2002/12/29
Do not lookup MX records when sorting the MSP queue.  The MSP
only needs to relay all mail to the MTA.  Problem found
by Gary Mills of the University of Manitoba.
Avoid problems with QueueSortOrder=random due to problems with
qsort() on Solaris (and maybe some other operating systems).
Problem noted by Stephan Schulz of Gruner+Jahr..
8.12.0/8.12.0   2001/09/08
If the new option FastSplit (defaults to one) has a value greater
than zero, it suppresses the MX lookups on addresses when they
are initially sorted which may result in faster envelope
splitting.  If the mail is submitted directly from the
command line, then the value also limits the number of
processes to deliver the envelopes; if more envelopes are
created they are only queued up and must be taken care of
by a queue run.
QueueSortOrder=Random sorts the queue randomly, which is useful if
several queue runners are started by hand to avoid contention.
QueueSortOrder=Modification sorts the queue by the modification time
of the qf file (older entries first).
	Note that none of these make any mention whatsoever to tracking 
previous average delivery times for a recipient and using this as a 
predictor for future average delivery times, and therefore sorting 
the current input on this basis.

	But please check again to make sure I didn't miss something.  You 
know me, I've only been mucking about with sendmail since ~1991, my 
name only comes up in the full RELEASE_NOTES four times, I was only 
the sendmail FAQ maintainer from ~1995 to ~1997, and I could easily 
have forgotten or missed something.

 Postfix has some very interesting features that make it much better to
 use than Sendmail, but the one that sets it most apart in added
 efficiency is its default queueing structure.
	You mean the hashed queues?  Yes, that's good, but sendmail can 
do better with the optional multiple queue structure.  With this 
option, sendmail gives you more control over how many queues are 
created at what depth, instead of giving you an arbitrary number of 
sixteen queue directories per hash level.  Since most filesystems 
start flaking out with more than about 1000 directory entries at a 
single level, you can flatten the sendmail queue structure 
significantly and still have fewer files per leaf directory node than 
postfix would allow.

	Moreover, it is the hashed queue structure that postfix uses, and 
the way it uses the disk for queue management by moving files from 
one directory structure to another, which causes the fundamental 
performance limitations which sendmail allows you to exceed.  Note 
that sendmail never moves files around on-disk, and therefore does 
not result in additional unnecessary synchronous meta-data updates.

	Indeed, with the safe asynchronous writes feature, sendmail can 
safely avoid causing any asynchronous meta-data updates at all for 
most cases, as the mail messages are small enough that they can be 
buffered in memory and delivered on the initial delivery attempt. 
Only large messages or messages that fail the initial delivery 
attempt end up getting written to disk at all, which means that 
sendmail can approach pure RAM/network I/O throughput speeds whereas 
postfix will always be bound by disk I/O.

 I do agree with you though, that if the MTA (or Mailman) could
 periodically sweep the MTA delivery logs and sort the domains from
 fastest to slowest, there would be an increase in efficiency.
	This is the feature *I* was talking about, although I'd be 
inclined to do it on an individual basis and not a domain basis, 
since some individuals might have .procmailrc or other processing 
scripts on the remote end that might be significantly slower to 
process than other recipients within the same domain.

	For situations where this is not an issue at the remote end, the 
problem would largely solve itself because all those recipients would 
tend to sort together anyway.

 For larger lists and Mailman, I have found that nothing beats using a
 RAM disk and accessing the list database files via the mounted RAM disk.
 The speed increase can be 100x faster.
	If you're going to be a professional spammer, then I would 
suggest usi

[Mailman-Users] Mailman upgrade queries, Debian

[Jonathan Ah Kit]

Hi

I've decided I'd like to have another go with apt-getting/upgrading to the
current Mailman. I'm currently running 2.0.13-2.

My two questions:

How can I back up "everything" and or what would I need to back up in
order to bail out in the event of a problem, and if so, how would I?

What 'gotchas' are there using the current Debian package, 2.1.2-6? I
can't recall where I mucked up last time.

I've looked around for a full 2.0.x to 2.1.x upgrade instruction set, but
there doesn't appear to be one, including the FAQ Wizard.

So... help?

Thanks!
Jonathan :)

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman performance / sends per hour

[Jon Carnes]

On Sat, 2003-07-26 at 06:03, Brad Knowles wrote:
> At 7:43 PM -0400 2003/07/25, Jon Carnes wrote:
> 
> >  Actually Brad, it looks like your knowledge of Sendmail is rather dated.
> >  Sendmail has been doing this since 2001.
> >
> >http://www.sendmail.org/~ca/email/doc8.12/RELEASE_NOTES

Sigh... You would think that somebody who had been mucking about with
sendmail since ~1991, and whose name comes up in the full RELEASE_NOTES
four times, plus was the sendmail FAQ maintainer from ~1995 to ~1997,
would be able to read release notes from Sendmail...

Here is the section from the Release Notes that is pertinent to our
"pissing contest":

   Add parallel queue runner code.  Allows multiple queue runners per work
group (one or more queues in a multi-queue environment
collected together) to process the same work list at the
same time.

And yes this is an old reference.  I said, that Sendmail had been doing
this since 2001 - not advocating that folks use an old version of
Sendmail. Though if anyone else is reading these messages, I'm sure they
understood that.



> 
> >  For larger lists and Mailman, I have found that nothing beats using a
> >  RAM disk and accessing the list database files via the mounted RAM disk.
> >  The speed increase can be 100x faster.
> 
>   If you're going to be a professional spammer, then I would 
> suggest using the professional spammer tools.
> 
>   Otherwise, if you're going to run a mailing list for normal 
> people, then I would suggest that you pay attention to sections 5.3.3 
> and 5.3.4 of RFC 1123 "Internet Host Requirements", which is also 
> part of STD0003:

Once again, Brad, you show that you have either very poor reading skills
or simply a poor understanding of mailsystems, and Mailman in
particular.

Re-read my statement above and maybe look into the old archives of this
list.  You will discover that due to Mailman's current design (well
really a limitation of Python) large lists can be very slow to maintain
and process.  the solution is to move the MAILMAN (not sendmail you
oaf!) list databases into a RAM drive.  And (duh!) a battery backed up
RAM drive sure would be best.

Jon Carnes



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[Mailman-Users] Problems with user rights

[Christian Schoepplein]

Hello!

After adding some virtual hosts to mm_cfg.py and restartting mailman, I 
get the following problems with the user rights for mailman and postfix:

---
This is the Postfix program at host www.as-2.de.

I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned
below could not be delivered to one or more destinations.

For further assistance, please send mail to 

If you do so, please include this problem report. You can
delete your own text from the message returned below.

The Postfix program

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Command died with status 2:
"/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post blindzeln-mod". Command output: Group
mismatch error.  Mailman expected the mail wrapper script to be executed as
group "nogroup", but the system's mail server executed the mail script as
group "mailman".  Try tweaking the mail server to run the script as group
"nogroup", or re-run configure,  providing the command line option
`--with-mail-gid=mailman'.
---

I ran check_perms but no problems where shown..., before adding the 
virtual hosts everything worked fine.

what can I do, to solve this problem? I know that I could reconfigure 
and reinstall mailman, but what about the old lists an configurations? 
Will they be deleted after a new installation? How shuld I reinstall 
mailman to have the right userrights?

Apache is running as user wwwrun an group nogroup, postfix runs as user 
postfix and group maildrop...

Thanks for any hint!

Ciao,
Schoeppi


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Problems with user rights

[Jon Carnes]

On Sat, 2003-07-26 at 09:59, Christian Schoepplein wrote:
> Hello!
> 
> After adding some virtual hosts to mm_cfg.py and restartting mailman, I 
> get the following problems with the user rights for mailman and postfix:
> 
> ---
> This is the Postfix program at host www.as-2.de.
> 
> I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned
> below could not be delivered to one or more destinations.
> 
> For further assistance, please send mail to 
> 
> If you do so, please include this problem report. You can
> delete your own text from the message returned below.
> 
>   The Postfix program
> 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Command died with status 2:
> "/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post blindzeln-mod". Command output: Group
> mismatch error.  Mailman expected the mail wrapper script to be executed as
> group "nogroup", but the system's mail server executed the mail script as
> group "mailman".  Try tweaking the mail server to run the script as group
> "nogroup", or re-run configure,  providing the command line option
> `--with-mail-gid=mailman'.
> ---

Hmmm, Check the ownership of the alias file (the where the above alias
is stored). Try setting the files group ownership to "nogroup"...

> I ran check_perms but no problems where shown..., before adding the 
> virtual hosts everything worked fine.
> 
> what can I do, to solve this problem? I know that I could reconfigure 
> and reinstall mailman, but what about the old lists an configurations? 
> Will they be deleted after a new installation? How shuld I reinstall 
> mailman to have the right userrights?
> 
If you re-install from source, then the old lists will be fine (not
deleted) and your configurations (stored in mm_cfg.py) will be fine as
well.

One of the first steps (after expanding the tar ball containing all the
source code) to installing from source is to run the command:
./configure

In your case you would include the switch:
  ./configure --with-mail-gid=mailman

But really, I don't think you need to re-install, just adjust some
rights.  Good Luck,

Jon Carnes



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Another question.. hopefully more interesting :)

[Glenn Sieb]

Heya Richard :)

Richard Barrett said:
> Before commenting on the detail of what you do I make the observation
> that using Secure HTTP and private mail archives are not the same topic.

This is correct, and a nice summary of SSL versus private archives, but it
has nothing to do with my question, unfortunately :-/

> You should read the comments in $prefix/Mailman/Defaults.py.

I will do so again, but Defaults.py can just read like Beetlejuice style
stereo instructions at times :-/

> DEFAULT_URL is obsolete and only for compatibility reasons, is defined
> as None in Defaults.py  and should not be defined in mm_cfg.py.

> There is not such animal as PRIVATE_ARCHIVE_URL in the MM lexicon. This
> variable is being completely ignored.

Ok, fair 'nuff. Things to note: I probably got most of these settings
either A) from reading this list or B) reading HOWTOs on the web... my
Mailman server has been up for a number of months now, and I don't exactly
recall where I got most of the settings I used.

> Private archives are served by a Mailman CGI script in file
> $prefix/Mailman/Cgi/private.py which is invoked (assuming a default
> install) by the URI /mailman/private

Correct--please note my question had to do with having one hostname behind
SSL, and others (virtual hostnames) not behind SSL. The installation as it
stands has been running for a while now and I have no complaints with it's
performance.

> This is no surprise as URLs for all Mailman CGI programs are formed
> from DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN

I still put the reference in, so you could see that I had taken the basic
logical steps in figuring this out. :)

> Which is a pretty good hint that you do not want to do this. Again read
> the comments in Defaults.py before you mess with this stuff.

Maybe what I can/should do, is, go through Defaults.py and see if I can
clean up the wording to make it easier to understand in those spots that
are clearly written by programmers for programmers? :)

> btw: I assume you are restarting mailmanctl running fix_url.py after
> fixing your mm_cfg.py.

Yup.

> If you want to use HTTPS for private archives and HTTP for public
> archives, the simplest approach is to say:

This was not my question. My question was: Virtual Hosts. I have a primary
host (wingfoot), and others (domain2.org, etc). I apologize, but I thought
I had been pretty clear in that my whole question was that I wish
Wingfoot's Mailman to be behind SSL and the other domains Mailmans *not*
to be behind SSL.

So, is it possible to do what I need to in one instance of Mailman, or do
I need two instances of Mailman? And, if I do need two instances of
Mailman, is that even possible to do so on one box without them clobbering
each other?

Thank you!
Glenn
---
The original portions of this message are the copyright of the author
(c)1998-2002 Glenn E. Sieb.ICQ UIN: 300395IRC Nick: Rainbear
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[Mailman-Users] Four simple questions not answered by the FAQ.

[schuetzen]

Four basic questions

1.  I have 12 lists I want to be plain text
2.  I want them to have NO attachments  

Where are the (setup) switches to make the above happen?

3.  I want to have a single page for moderation efforts.

Where is or how do I do this?

4.  Why can I not see all 30 or 50 members of a list as we used to in pre
2.1.x??

Where is that switch?


This IS the "factory" list for Mailman, right? Or should I be going to another
source?


thanks
chas
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Charles L Hamilton, Houston, TX  chasm @ texas. net  www.schuetzen.net


.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Four simple questions not answered by the FAQ.

[Jerry Feldman]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 12:59:57 -0500
schuetzen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Four basic questions
> 
> 1.  I have 12 lists I want to be plain text
> 2.  I want them to have NO attachments  
I use stripmime. You can insert the MIME strippers in the alias file for
your MTA (sendmail or postfix ...).  The version of stripmime I use is a
perl script, and strips all attachments, when presented with alternative
text/html, it selects text. When presented with html only it converts
that to plain text. 
http://www.phred.org/~alex/stripmime.html
While this is not integrated into mailman, it strips the messages first,
but allows them to post. While I have not yet installed the most recent
mailman, I found that mailman tends to reject messages with attachments,
including MIME digital signatures. 

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PGP Key fingerprint:053C 73EC 3AC1 5C44 3E14 9245 FB00 3ED5 C506 1EA9
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[Mailman-Users] problem with first list setup

[Bob Bowen]

hi
a rookie problem no doubt but here is what happened. i setup a test list,
called the list bob using the 'newlist' script and it asked for the email
of the person running the list I, of course, put in bob.  so i received an
email, to bob, congradulating me on the successful setup of the list bob
and I realized the apparent problem.  i went back and used 'rmlist' to
remove the list bob, that worked. I then tried to setup a test list called
boblist with the email of the person running the list as bob, which is
what I should have done in the beginning and received a message from the
'newlist' script that says "Bad owner email address: bob"

I've deleted the list files from /var/mailman/lists , both public and
private.  Still having this problem.  Can someone suggest what I am
missing in clearing this up?

thanks,
bob

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Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman page

[Harmon Seaver]

On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 12:23:42PM -0700, Matt Thoene wrote:
> On Friday, July 25, 2003 @ 11:42:53 AM [-0700], Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
> >   I'm just doing the initial install, almost finished, but so far I haven't been
> > able to determine where the mailman page comes from -- is there a sample html
> > page included in the install package or does that page have to be created from
> > scratch?
> >I've read a whole lot of documentation but I must be missing something here.
> 
> Harmon,
> 
> Not sure where it comes from but you can edit your html pages by hitting
> the url below. You'll need to substitute your domain name and
> listname of course.
> 
> http://sub.domain.tld/mailman/edithtml/yourlistname
> 

   Yeah, but there's nothing there. Nor in http://my.domain.tld/mailman


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Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman page

[Harmon Seaver]

On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 03:39:20PM -0400, John DeCarlo wrote:
> Harmon,
> 
> I agree this is a bit confusing for most people, including me.  Mailman 
> seems to generate the HTML pages so it can add specific information 
> about your installation.

   When does it do that? I've done the install, ran the bin/newlist mailman,
started qrunner, but there is no http://my.domain/mailman/



> 
> If you want to look at some of the HTML templates Mailman uses, look in 
> the templates/en (or any language you plan to use) at the HTML files.
> 
> Harmon Seaver wrote:
> 
> >  I'm just doing the initial install, almost finished, but so far I 
> >  haven't been
> >able to determine where the mailman page comes from -- is there a sample 
> >html
> >page included in the install package or does that page have to be created 
> >from
> >scratch?
> >   I've read a whole lot of documentation but I must be missing something 
> >   here.
> 
> -- 
> 
> John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own
> 
> 

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[Mailman-Users] Big delays wrapper to delivery

[Nicolas Bertrand]

Hello

We have a few low volume mailing lists . We have been been happy with
the performance since instigating these (about a year and half ago) and
these mailing lists have become quite important. 
However, suddenly, delivery times to subscribers have increased to 8-12
hours and cannot figure out what has gone wrong...

Info:

1.MTA is postfix.
2.Mail gets received by the email server which then triggers 'wrapper
post'
Then it takes 8-12 hours to get the mail delivered.
3.This problem is specific to mailing lists (all the other mail is fine)
4. The load on the server is minimal
5. no locks
6. nothing in qfiles
7. no errors in ~mailman/logs
8. no error in maillog
9. qrunner is executed by cron every minute, no error is being
generated. Same thing, with running qrunner manually from the command
line.

Any ideas?

Nic






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[Mailman-Users] data/aliases.db

[Harmon Seaver]

   Also, I'm not finding any data/aliases or data/aliases.db files despite
running genaliases.

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[Mailman-Users] mailman and courier

[Steve Arnold]

Howdy:

I saw the post in the archives about configuring courier and mailman, however, I'm not 
using and pgsql auth stuff or hosteddomains (or anything virtual really).

I guess my first question is on the DELIVERY_MODULE = 'SMTPDirect' thing, ie, should I 
change this to Sendmaail and point it to courier's sendmail stub?

As you can see, I'm not a mail expert, but I did manage to get all the courier stuff 
to work (AFAICT).

Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance, Steve

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Problems with user rights

[Christian Schoepplein]

Hello!

On Sam, Jul 26, 2003 at 10:26:41 -0400, Jon Carnes wrote:
> On Sat, 2003-07-26 at 09:59, Christian Schoepplein wrote:
> > After adding some virtual hosts to mm_cfg.py and restartting mailman, I 
> > get the following problems with the user rights for mailman and postfix:
> > 
> > ---
> > This is the Postfix program at host www.as-2.de.
> > 
> > I'm sorry to have to inform you that the message returned
> > below could not be delivered to one or more destinations.
> > 
> > For further assistance, please send mail to 
> > 
> > If you do so, please include this problem report. You can
> > delete your own text from the message returned below.
> > 
> > The Postfix program
> > 
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Command died with status 2:
> > "/usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post blindzeln-mod". Command output: Group
> > mismatch error.  Mailman expected the mail wrapper script to be executed as
> > group "nogroup", but the system's mail server executed the mail script as
> > group "mailman".  Try tweaking the mail server to run the script as group
> > "nogroup", or re-run configure,  providing the command line option
> > `--with-mail-gid=mailman'.
> > ---
> 
> Hmmm, Check the ownership of the alias file (the where the above alias
> is stored). Try setting the files group ownership to "nogroup"...

Thanks, the userrights of my alias.db-file really were the problem. But 
somehow I'm confused about the groups and users I have to use, when 
setting up mailman with postfix and apache :-(. In my case the following 
envirorment is given:

httpd.conf:

User wwwrun
Group nogroup

>From postfix's main.cf:

mail_owner = postfix
setgid_group = maildrop
default_privs = nobody
owner_request_special = no 

And from /etc/group:

nobody:x:65533:nobody
nogroup:x:65534:nobody
mailman:x:500:
maildrop:x:59:
postfix:x:51:

[...]

> One of the first steps (after expanding the tar ball containing all the
> source code) to installing from source is to run the command:
> ./configure

Yes, I know, but what do I have to set for cgi-gid, mail-gid, 
with-username and with-group? I executed configure with the following 
parameters:

./configure --prefix=/usr/lib/mailman --sysconfdir=/etc
--localstatedir=/var/run --libexecdir=/usr/lib/mailman
--with-var-prefix=/var/lib/mailman --with-cgi-gid=nogroup
--with-mail-gid=nogroup

Is this OK or should I reinstall mailman with other settings?

> In your case you would include the switch:
>   ./configure --with-mail-gid=mailman

I tryed this but that caused problems like the one above.

> Jon Carnes

Thanks in advance for help!
Schoeppi

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Another question.. hopefully more interesting :)

[Richard Barrett]

On Saturday, July 26, 2003, at 06:30 PM, Glenn Sieb wrote:



 My question was: Virtual Hosts. I have a primary
host (wingfoot), and others (domain2.org, etc). I apologize, but I 
thought
I had been pretty clear in that my whole question was that I wish
Wingfoot's Mailman to be behind SSL and the other domains Mailmans 
*not*
to be behind SSL.

Must have missed that the first time around or at least failed to grasp 
why it was of concern. If I am honest fail to see why you have a 
problem with all the virtual hosts using the same scheme but what the 
heck, its your system.

So, is it possible to do what I need to in one instance of Mailman,
It would appear not. There is only one DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN and one 
PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL per mm_cfg.py file. The value of those variables 
define the scheme to be used in URL's generated by the MM software that 
accesses that file. I think it is safe to assume that all the virtual 
hosts being supported by that MM installation will those values and 
hence use the same scheme.

 or do
I need two instances of Mailman? And, if I do need two instances of
Mailman, is that even possible to do so on one box without them 
clobbering
each other?

I would think that running ./configure with two different values of 
--with-prefix, followed by make install for each, would be the simplest 
approach and work just fine. I am sure you can work out the additional 
entries in your httpd.conf for the 'https server' and the 'http server' 
to coexist. And you have the to ensure that mail aliases supported by 
the two MM installs do not collide as far as your MTA is concerned.

Thank you!
Glenn
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Another question.. hopefully more interesting :)

[Glenn Sieb]

Richard Barrett said:
> Must have missed that the first time around or at least failed to grasp
> why it was of concern. If I am honest fail to see why you have a
> problem with all the virtual hosts using the same scheme but what the
> heck, its your system.

Easy--because SSL isn't very friendly for virtual domains unless you
specify a separate IP address for *every* domain. (Remember--SSL works on
the *IP* level, not on the HTTP server level--so right now having the
other domains reply to https: means they're using my (Wingfoot's)
certificate, which causes all kinds of screaming by browsers, and just
Looks Ugly(tm).) For any of us who've ever been hosted at places like
phpwebhosting.com, you know exactly what I'm talking about.. :)

So, since IPs cost $, plus the time and hassle to have to go through a
network renumber... I'm all about avoiding that. :)

> It would appear not. There is only one DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN and one
> PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL per mm_cfg.py file. The value of those variables
> define the scheme to be used in URL's generated by the MM software that
> accesses that file. I think it is safe to assume that all the virtual
> hosts being supported by that MM installation will those values and
> hence use the same scheme.

*nod* Ok...

> I would think that running ./configure with two different values of
> --with-prefix, followed by make install for each, would be the simplest
> approach and work just fine. I am sure you can work out the additional
> entries in your httpd.conf for the 'https server' and the 'http server'
> to coexist. And you have the to ensure that mail aliases supported by
> the two MM installs do not collide as far as your MTA is concerned.

Ok fair enough.. I'll give this a shot... I'll let you know how it turns
out...

Thanks, Richard!
Glenn
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Big delays wrapper to delivery

[Richard Barrett]

On Saturday, July 26, 2003, at 08:09 PM, Nicolas Bertrand wrote:

Hello

We have a few low volume mailing lists . We have been been happy with
the performance since instigating these (about a year and half ago) and
these mailing lists have become quite important.
However, suddenly, delivery times to subscribers have increased to 8-12
hours and cannot figure out what has gone wrong...
Info:

1.MTA is postfix.
2.Mail gets received by the email server which then triggers 'wrapper
post'
Then it takes 8-12 hours to get the mail delivered.
3.This problem is specific to mailing lists (all the other mail is 
fine)
4. The load on the server is minimal
5. no locks
6. nothing in qfiles
7. no errors in ~mailman/logs
8. no error in maillog
9. qrunner is executed by cron every minute, no error is being
generated. Same thing, with running qrunner manually from the command
line.

Any ideas?

Nic

Is that 8 to 12 hours for a message between the following times:

1. from the time the MTA's log records as delivering the message to the 
Mailman

2. to the time logged by MM in post and smtp logs for the message going 
out to the subscribers.

Does time (2) fit with the MTA's log showing the time it got the 
outgoing message from MM? What time does the MTA show handing off the 
message to the next MTA?

If time (1) to time (2) is where the 8 to 12 hours is going, are you 
saying nothing is showing in the qfiles directory during that time?

Assume you are using MM 2.0.x; which value of x?

Which MTA?



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Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman page

[Richard Barrett]

On Saturday, July 26, 2003, at 07:26 PM, Harmon Seaver wrote:

On Fri, Jul 25, 2003 at 03:39:20PM -0400, John DeCarlo wrote:
Harmon,

I agree this is a bit confusing for most people, including me.   
Mailman
seems to generate the HTML pages so it can add specific information
about your installation.
   When does it do that? I've done the install, ran the bin/newlist  
mailman,
started qrunner, but there is no http://my.domain/mailman/


Have you followed _all_ the instructions in the INSTALL file in the  
Mailman build directory?

In particular have you put the necessary Alias and ScriptAlias and  
related directives in your httpd.conf file, per the installation  
instructions?

If not then URLs commencing http://my.domain/mailman/ (such as  
http://my.domain/mailman/admin and http://my.domain/mailman/listinfo)  
will not be available as the web server will not know how to launch the  
Mailman CGI programs concerned that dynamically generate these web  
pages.

The Mailman web admin GUI and listinfo functions are all delivered by  
CGI programs that form part of the Mailman installation. These pages  
are generated dynamically as they present relatively volatile data; for  
instance it changes, when you create a new list or a new user  
subscribes or the list admin changes a configuration option or a  
message is held for moderation. Trying to maintain a set of static HTML  
pages to represent this and allow maintenance of the static pages   
through web forms makes little sense. Instead Mailman CGI scripts  
generate pages/web forms dynamically from MM's database contents.

The only static MM web pages are the HTML list archive pages and even  
those are delivered by an MM CGI program in the case of private list  
archives.

Which version of MM are you running? MM 2.1.2 one hopes but your  
reference to the qrunner hints at an earlier version. If this is a new  
installation you would be advised to use the latest stable release:  
2.1.2

If you want to look at some of the HTML templates Mailman uses, look  
in
the templates/en (or any language you plan to use) at the HTML files.

Harmon Seaver wrote:

 I'm just doing the initial install, almost finished, but so far I
 haven't been
able to determine where the mailman page comes from -- is there a  
sample
html
page included in the install package or does that page have to be  
created
from
scratch?
  I've read a whole lot of documentation but I must be missing  
something
  here.
--  

John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own


--  
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-
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http://www.openinfo.co.uk

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman performance / sends per hour

[Brad Knowles]

At 9:43 AM -0400 2003/07/26, Jon Carnes wrote:

 Here is the section from the Release Notes that is pertinent to our
 "pissing contest":
Add parallel queue runner code.  Allows multiple queue runners per work
group (one or more queues in a multi-queue environment
collected together) to process the same work list at the
same time.
	I said:

Actually, what postfix does is handle multiple copies of the
 message being transmitted to separate domains in parallel.  This
 helps ensure that fast sites further down the list don't get hung up
 by slower sites that come earlier.  However, there is a limit to this
 parallelism.  Mailman could help this process by tracking the average
 delivery time per recipient, and then sorting the recipient list when
 handing the messages to postfix -- fastest first, slowest last.
	You responded:

 Actually Brad, it looks like your knowledge of Sendmail is rather
 dated. Sendmail has been doing this since 2001.
  http://www.sendmail.org/~ca/email/doc8.12/RELEASE_NOTES
	You just said "this".  You didn't say what "this" you were 
talking about.  I (naturally) assumed you meant to reference the most 
recent part of the paragraph you were responding to, which was the 
issue of the recipient sorting feature based on previous average 
delivery times -- a feature that neither sendmail nor postfix has, 
and which would be a notable improvement for mailman.

	If you had wanted to refer to the issue of having multiple queue 
runners going in parallel, you should have trimmed the paragraph at 
the appropriate point, or you should have been more specific.

	Either way, I would then have mentioned that this feature did not 
work correctly when originally added to the system in version 8.10 
(dated 2000/03/01) with "multiple queue directories":

Support multiple queue directories.  To use multiple queues, supply
a QueueDirectory option value ending with an asterisk.  For
example, /var/spool/mqueue/q* will use all of the
directories or symbolic links to directories beginning with
'q' in /var/spool/mqueue as queue directories.  Keep in
mind, the queue directory structure should not be changed
while sendmail is running.  Queue runs create a separate
process for running each queue unless the verbose flag is
given on a non-daemon queue run.  New items are randomly
assigned to a queue.  Contributed by Exactis.com, Inc.
	The problem is that there was no way you could keep sendmail from 
firing off a queue runner per multiple queue, and if you wanted to 
have a large directory hierarchy of multiple levels of queues with 
lots of queues at each level (a la postfix, but better), this could 
cause thousands or millions of queue runners to be started -- 
obviously, a highly undesirable result.  This caused no end of 
problems for us at a previous employer, end I ended up turning off 
all of sendmail's control over multiple queues and managing them 
myself.

	I was also an early adopter of running multiple queue runners in 
the same directory, some with "QueueSortOrder=host", some with 
"QueueSortOrder=time", some with "QueueSortOrder=random", etc... so 
as to try to clear the queue as best as possible but with as little 
lock contention as possible.  I was doing this from ~1995.

	Besides, with limiting the number of recipients per envelope 
(either within the MLM or within the MTA) and then allowing multiple 
processes to handle each chunk separately, you get pretty much the 
same effect.

 Re-read my statement above and maybe look into the old archives of this
 list.  You will discover that due to Mailman's current design (well
 really a limitation of Python) large lists can be very slow to maintain
 and process.  the solution is to move the MAILMAN (not sendmail you
 oaf!) list databases into a RAM drive.  And (duh!) a battery backed up
 RAM drive sure would be best.
	List databases or the MTA mqueues, it doesn't matter.  The same 
requirement for reliability is there.  If you choose to be so casual 
with the management of your mailing lists, it sure makes me wonder 
about your competence in other areas.

--
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"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania.
GCS/IT d+(-) s:+(++)>: a C++(+++)$ UMBSHI$ P+>++ L+ !E-(---) W+++(--) N+
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[Mailman-Users] Invite vs. Subscribe Bugreport.. is this fixed in>2.1?

[Glenn Sieb]

I have found that if I invite someone to join a list, and they reply via
email to activate, my maillog looks like this:

Jul 26 21:03:13 caduceus postfix/qmgr[78907]: 023A11528D:
from=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, size=2809, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
Jul 26 21:03:13 caduceus postfix/smtpd[42046]: disconnect from
localhost.wingfoot.org[127.0.0.1]
Jul 26 21:03:13 caduceus amavis[41624]: (41624-03) Passed,
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ->
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Jul 26 21:03:13 caduceus amavis[41624]: (41624-03) TIMING [total 817 ms] -
SMTP EHLO: 1 (0%), SMTP pre-MAIL: 0 (0%), SMTP pre-DATA-flush: 3 (0%),
SMTP DATA: 94 (11%), body hash: 0 (0%), mime_decode: 10 (1%),
get-file-type: 19 (2%), decompose_part: 1 (0%), parts: 0 (0%), AV-scan-1:
561 (69%), fwd-connect: 6 (1%), fwd-mail-from: 2 (0%), fwd-rcpt-to: 3
(0%), write-header: 3 (0%), fwd-data: 1 (0%), fwd-rundown: 108 (13%),
unlink-1-files: 3 (0%), rundown: 0 (0%)
Jul 26 21:03:13 caduceus postfix/smtp[42043]: 2FAC31528E:
to=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
relay=127.0.0.1[127.0.0.1], delay=1, status=sent (250 2.6.0 Ok,
id=41624-03, from MTA: 250 Ok: queued as 023A11528D)
Jul 26 21:03:13 caduceus postfix/pipe[42549]: 023A11528D:
to=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
relay=mailman, delay=0, status=bounced (Command died with status 1:
"/usr/local/mailman/postfix-to-mailman.py". Command output:  TO ACCESS THE
MAILING LIST SYSTEM: Start your web browser on https://lists.wingfoot.org/
That web page will help you subscribe or unsubscribe, and will give you
directions on how to post to each mailing list. )
Jul 26 21:03:13 caduceus postfix/cleanup[42042]: 7EC101529F:
message-id=<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Jul 26 21:03:13 caduceus postfix/qmgr[78907]: 7EC101529F: from=<>,
size=5024, nrcpt=1 (queue active)
Jul 26 21:03:13 caduceus spamd[330]: connection from
localhost.wingfoot.org [127.0.0.1] at port 4490

Now, if I, as the user, go to the main page of the list, and ask it to
subscribe me, and then reply to the email, it all works fine

I'm running MM 2.1, Python 2.2.2, Apache 1.3.27 with mod_ssl

If this is something fixed in a newer version of 2.1, I guess it's time to
update.. :)

Thanks, again...
Glenn
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Re: [Mailman-Users] problem with first list setup

[Todd]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Bob Bowen wrote:
> a rookie problem no doubt but here is what happened. i setup a test list,
> called the list bob using the 'newlist' script and it asked for the email
> of the person running the list I, of course, put in bob.  so i received an
> email, to bob, congradulating me on the successful setup of the list bob
> and I realized the apparent problem.

Hehe. :)

> I then tried to setup a test list called boblist with the email of the
> person running the list as bob, which is what I should have done in the
> beginning and received a message from the 'newlist' script that says "Bad
> owner email address: bob"

I believe you want to add the domain to the address.  'bob' by itself isn't
a valid email address.  I'm not sure how you got it past mailman on the
first try.

- -- 
Todd  OpenPGP -> KeyID: 0xD654075A | URL: www.pobox.com/~tmz/pgp

He who knows others is wise; He knows himself is enlightened.
-- Lao-Tzu

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Invite vs. Subscribe Bugreport.. is this fixed in>2.1?

[Glenn Sieb]

Arrgh.

It was a problem with postfix-to-mailman.py. I had {mailbox} not {user} in
my main.cf... the version of p-t-m.py I had, had said use:

mailman   unix  -   n   n   -   -   pipe
flags=FR user=mailman:mailman
argv=/usr/local/mailman/postfix-to-mailman.py ${nexthop} ${mailbox}

instead of:

mailman   unix  -   n   n   -   -   pipe
flags=FR user=mailman:mailman
argv=/usr/local/mailman/postfix-to-mailman.py ${nexthop} ${user}

Welp, it was a good excuse to upgrade postfix-to-mailman.py and mailman to
2.1.2, anywho...

I am, however, glad it wasn't a Mailman bug :

G'night...
Glenn
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The original portions of this message are the copyright of the author
(c)1998-2002 Glenn E. Sieb.ICQ UIN: 300395IRC Nick: Rainbear
"All acts of Love and Pleasure are Her rituals"-Charge of the Goddess


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[Mailman-Users] broken List-archive header

[Joel Uckelman]

Yesterday I upgraded Mailman to 2.1 and started to notice the following 
problem: The List-archive headers in messages coming from my lists all look 
like this:

List-archive: 

while before they looked like this, e.g.:

List-archive: 

What's happening to the rest of the URL?

I have PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL set to 'http://lists.ellipsis.cx/archives/%(listna
me)s/', and it *is* showing up correctly in the archive links on the list 
info pages.

Any ideas?

-- 
J.



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[Mailman-Users] thanks; Debian sid upgrade notes; archive question

[Jonathan Ah Kit]

Hi

Looks like I had a bit too much dumb luck (hrm) on my side. It seems to
have worked. My gotchas with the current Debian sid and sarge (2.1.2-6)
package... I figure some of them are a bit obvious, but this is in case
some one ends up with the same problems as I did on the last attempt.

Thanks for a lovely program, overall! At the moment, I'm using it at
 to run a changes list for the Doctor Fun
website , and David Goldstein's domain and
Internet news list. Anyways, on to what I did...

First, I used a downloaded the .deb manually to take a look at the docs.
It helped greatly to view this pre-apt-get.

1. Stopping apache and exim probably a good idea. Not essential, of
course. But stops any delays in delivery, if there aren't any errors.

2. Pre-edit /etc/exim/exim.conf. Just in case, to save on down time. It
takes a moment of diddling, that's all. Details in
/usr/share/doc/mailman/README.Exim.gz in the .deb. Find out first what
your USER and GROUP are for Mailman, though. I used the defaults from my
2.0.13 install, which was list and list. So, the variation would be:
> MAILMAN_USER=list
> MAILMAN_GROUP=list
If there's any errors, Exim just won't restart. :)

3. Make a tarball of your mailman stuff in /etc/mailman/ and
/var/lib/mailman/. That's the big bit where I mucked up last time... At
least I had the mboxes to reconstruct the mailing lists of value,
though...

4. apt-get -u install mailman

5. cp exim.conf.mm212 exim.conf -- I had trouble here, see step 2.

6. Run newlist as instructed by apt-get to create the list 'mailman'.

7. /usr/lib/mailman/bin/genaliases > newaliases and then cp /etc/aliases
/etc/aliases.mm212

8. Comment out the old aliases in /etc/aliases (or kill them)

9. cat newaliases >> /etc/aliases

10. Fire up exim and apache again.

11. Test message time.

At this point, I was pleasantly surprised for me things were going fine,
apart from the little exim mishap with the user and group variables, so
the first test message took a while to get posted. But the main thing now
was that my production lists would continue posting.

12. Fire up a web browser and check the interface.

The first thing I noticed was the cgi location changed. Nothing worked at
first.
> ScriptAlias /mailman/ /usr/lib/cgi-bin/mailman/

For me, I found that the prefixes syntax in /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py had
changed, as some links on some pages weren't either going to the right
path or hostname. Though it took me a while to find the settings. For me,
my web server is greta.electric.gen.nz and the mailing lists are
@lists.electric.gen.nz, so...
> # 2.0.13 stuff, now ignored, it seems
> DEFAULT_HOST_NAME = 'lists.electric.gen.nz'
> DEFAULT_URL   = 'http://greta.electric.gen.nz/mailman/'
> # not ignored, it seems, but I'll get back to this in a moment
> IMAGE_LOGOS   = '/mailman/images/'
>
> # 2.1.2-6 stuff
> DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'lists.electric.gen.nz'
> DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'greta.electric.gen.nz'
> DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/mailman/'

Some /etc/apache/httpd.conf changes... the images were broken.
> Alias /mailman/images/ /usr/share/images/mailman/

13. apachectl graceful -- then check again, until it works. Optionally,
send more test messages.

Well, I think that's it solely off the top of my head. The things that
don't work yet are the archives, but FWIW personally, I use two or so
external archivers, plus the HTML and mbox files are still being generated
(they just aren't being served, and getting 403 Forbiddens instead). Any
help here would be appreciated!

I'm really sorry if this turns out to be a bit of an arrogant document,
but I thought for once I'd better break my habit of not documenting in
detail what I did in case I have to (or someone else does) go through this
again.

Thanks again!

Regards,
Jonathan Ah Kit.

-- 
Jonathan Ah Kit - Lower Hutt - New Zealand
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.ah-kit.dropbear.id.au/
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - ICQ#9747234 - http://www.electric.gen.nz/
Away message: Looking for adhesive tape, not Alibrandi.


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