Re: [Mailman-Users] Availability of patches on Launchpad
On 7 Sep 2008, at 23:14, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not sure what patches your are seeing, but right now there are zero patches on Launchpad and the are removed from Sourceforge. Having two different Mailman listings on Launchpad does not help, either. Only one has the pogram - but neither have any patches. https://launchpad.net/mailman/+download has the standard Mailman program. ~mailman has nothing. Where are you seeing any patches at all? I found links to those of my older patches (two of them) that were transferred from the sourceforge tracker linked under the right menu heading Bug attachments on the following pages: https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/266553 - was 444879 on sourceforge https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/266554 - was 444884 on sourceforge In essence these entire tracker items, including attachments, appear to have been transferred from sourceforge to Launchpad. The sourceforge tracker items for my other enhancements do not seem to have been transferred. I guess it is not intended that the old approach with sourceforge of putting enhancements into the tracker with patch files attached, should be followed with Launchpad. I expect someone is going to tell me I should create my own branches of Mailman on Launchpad for each of my enhancement and publish what were patch file contents in that way. When I have time I may do that but in the meantime ... - Original Message - From: Richard Barrett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: mailman-users@python.org Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 19:17:10 +0100 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Availability of patches on Launchpad If you are a user of patches I have published for Mailman in the past then read on. Otherwise, apologies for cluttering up your mailbox. In the recent switch from Sourceforge to Launchpad a number of the current patches that I publish for Mailman do not appear to have made the cut and are now unavailable from either Sourceforge or Launchpad. As far as I am aware none of the patches that did not make it have been incorporated into core Mailman but I am willing to be corrected on this. Subject to the usual caveat that I will only maintain it while I use it myself, I shall continue to publish my patches via: http://www.openinfo.co.uk/mm/index.html The tableau below summarise what I believe to be the case. Format of tableau is: SourceforgeNumber LaunchpadNumber Description - means unavailable on Launchpad made the cut 444879 266553 Archive indexer control to improve indexing. 444884 266554 Integration of Mailman htdig for archive searching. did not make the cut 644797 - Revised mailer exit status. 760567 - Moderation request message content. 820723 - Mailman/pipermail/MHonarc integration 850805 - Aggressive anti email address harvesting measures 1442025 - List Specialisation for Support Groups 1483446 - Daily mbox files for list mbox archives - -- Richard Barrett http:// www.openinfo.co.uk -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users% 40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/lists% 40viplist.us Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Availability of patches on Launchpad
Richard Barrett writes: I guess it is not intended that the old approach with sourceforge of putting enhancements into the tracker with patch files attached, should be followed with Launchpad. I expect someone is going to tell me I should create my own branches of Mailman on Launchpad for each of my enhancement and publish what were patch file contents in that way. I imagine that is the preferred method for *future* patches, but since Canonical is after World Domination Now (or at least a market share that requires units greater than nano-percents to measure), they had better not lose history this way. I advise you to assume that this is just a bug (albeit a rather distressing one) that will be fixed in due time, until somebody says otherwise. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
[Mailman-Users] Harvesting of email addresses for spam from archives
We have had a lot of spams sent directly to our list members (i.e. not sent via mailman). All of them have subject headings taken from list emails already sent out genuinely via mailman. Almost all have our specific list prefix (but interesting not every one). Has anyone else had this recently (started 3rd Sept approx and the spammers listed from address has 'kiev' in it)? I can only think of 2 ways this has happened 1) Our public archives have been harvested by a spammer. This would account for the subject headings being used. Email addresses are displayed in the archives as, literally, 'name at domain.com' which is not immediately harvestable but wouldn't take much code to convert ' at ' to '@'. How do we make this more secure? I notice this list's archives are not standard mailman format! 2) One of our members PCs has been attacked and the subjects and email addresses taken from there. All our emails are delivered with the reply to address being the list but the originators email showing. This would account for a small number of the spams not having our list prefix in the subject heading (they would not have the prefix if stored in the sent box of the person that created the genuine message). However I would expect at least some members to report spam with entirely non list subjects from the same spammer. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Rv: many problems
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Hi Bill=0AI have explained already,=C2=A0I=C2=B4ve had=C2=A0a discussion li=
st for 5 years now and all this time have worked just fine, but had to chan=
ge servers cause I have no choice _the other server was a windows based ser=
ver and was way =C2=A0too expensive_=C2=A0but I know how mailman works and =
like it very much (as a user and as an administrator), so if looking for a =
good service that allows me _with no problem and delays as I=C2=B4ve had fo=
r 5 years_=C2=A0around 3000 mails a day_ for you means a high maintenace cl=
ient, thanks but no thanks=0A=C2=A0I=C2=B4m already in contact with EMW=
D and I =C2=B4m going to try with them. And=C2=A0once my list is set _as I=
=C2=B4m used to_=C2=A0they won=C2=B4t hear from me cause I=C2=B4m not rant=
ing nor a difficult ( high maintenance)client, I=C2=B4m just a potential=
client how knows what I want, and I would like to be treated like that=C2=
=A0by=C2=A0getting the answers and solutions for=C2=A0the questions and=C2=
=A0problems I have, and so far, I=C2=B4ve been treated by EMWD and speciall=
y from Brian=C2=A0 that way , so EMWD is the choice I=C2=B4ve made.=0A=C2=
=A0=0AJ.A.G=0A=0A=0A=0A- Mensaje original =0ADe: Bill Christensen =
[EMAIL PROTECTED]=0APara: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: s=
=C3=A1bado, 6 de septiembre, 2008 23:07:33=0AAsunto: Re: [Mailman-Users] Rv=
: many problems=0A=0AAt 10:33 AM -0700 9/5/08, Jaione Arrieta wrote:=0A=0A=
Thank you for the answers and yes the problem is wit=3D=0Ah the server tha=
t doesn=3DC2=3DB4t allow more than 400 mails an hour and my=3D=0A=C2=
=A0 list has 500 members,=0A=0ASounds like you have a problem there.=0A=
=0AIf this is an announcement list (where you might have some control =0Aov=
er the timing of messages being sent, as opposed to a discusion =0Alist whe=
re you won't) you might be able to temporarily split the list =0Ainto two.=
=0A=0AIf it's a discussion, you'd be better off moving it again OR getting =
=0Athe current server admin to allow more than 400 emails/hour.=0A=0A_and =
what makes me more mad is that my contract with them was that =0Athe mailm=
an work properly,=0A=0AWell, technically Mailman *is* working properly.=C2=
=A0 It's the throttled =0Amail gateway that's getting you.=0A=0A=C2=A0 I'm=
looking for the best option=3D=0A=C2=A0 and I after going through the lis=
t you guys sent me I like EMWD=3DC2=3DA0 caus=3D=0Ae they have a mailman h=
osting=3DC2=3DA0 _that=3DC2=3DB4s all I need cause my web is=3D=0A=C2=A0 i=
n another server_but I have contacted them twice already (yesterday and t=
=3D=0Ahis morning)and haven=3DC2=3DB4t had any answer yet=0A=0AMaybe b=
ecause you're ranting and sound like a potentially =0Ahigh-maintainence cli=
ent.=C2=A0 (-;=0A=0AActually, they say that they've attempted to contact yo=
u but it's =0Abounced from your Yahoo address twice.=0A=0AWe also host Mail=
man lists.=C2=A0 I hadn't spoken up before now because =0Awe're relatively =
new to Mailman, having just switched over in March =0Afrom another list sof=
tware that we've been running for many years. =0AAnd because I was busy wit=
h other stuff - like working on a long =0Aoverdue overhaul of our own site.=
=0A=0ABefore I can make you an offer I'd need to know the topic of your =0A=
list and get an idea of your message load - how many messages per =0Aweek o=
r month on average, and what the averages is of the total =0Amegabytes used=
.=0A=0A=0A-- =0ABill Christensen=0Ahttp://greenbuilder.com/contact/=0A=0A=
Green Building Professionals Directory: http://directory.greenbuilder.com=
=0ASustainable Building Calendar: http://www.greenbuilder.com/calendar/=
=0AGreen Real Estate: http://www.greenbuilder.com/realestate/=0AStraw Bal=
e Registry: http://sbregistry.greenbuilder.com/=0ABooks/videos/software: =
http://bookstore.greenbuilder.com/=0A=
--=0AMailman-Users mailing [EMAIL PROTECTED]
=0Ahttp://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users=0AMailman FAQ: htt=
p://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3=0ASearchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com=
/mailman-users%40python.org/=0AUnsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/=
options/mailman-users/jaionea%40yahoo.com=0A=0ASecurity Policy: http://wiki=
.list.org/x/QIA9=0A=0A=0A__=
=0ACorreo Yahoo!=0AEspacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam =
=C2=A1gratis! =0AReg=C3=ADstrate ya - http://correo.yahoo.com.mx/
--0-910632351-1220881949=:22767
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htmlheadstyle type=3Dtext/css!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --/style/he=
adbodydiv style=3Dfont-family:arial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:1=
4ptPHi Bill/P=0API have explained already,nbsp;I=C2=B4ve hadnbsp;=
a discussion list for
Re: [Mailman-Users] Availability of patches on Launchpad
Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: Richard Barrett writes: I guess it is not intended that the old approach with sourceforge of putting enhancements into the tracker with patch files attached, should be followed with Launchpad. I expect someone is going to tell me I should create my own branches of Mailman on Launchpad for each of my enhancement and publish what were patch file contents in that way. I imagine that is the preferred method for *future* patches, but since Canonical is after World Domination Now (or at least a market share that requires units greater than nano-percents to measure), they had better not lose history this way. I advise you to assume that this is just a bug (albeit a rather distressing one) that will be fixed in due time, until somebody says otherwise. Stephen is correct that this is a serious bug in the migration process. It was not intended that anything would be culled or lost in this process. It appears that the same problem existed in the demo that was announced last month (http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-developers/2008-August/020345.html and http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2008-August/063021.html), but it wasn't caught. Nothing is permanently lost as the SourceForge trackers still exist. They just aren't currently accessible by other than project members. Unfortunately, Barry may not yet be aware of this as at least yesterday, the primary MX for list.org was not working, but I'm confident that this problem will be fixed. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Multi list management ..
Khalil Abbas wrote: and please, leave the type of mailing aside, if you're a non believer don't offend other people, I didn't try to shove my beliefs into your faces and I was really offended with what you said about religion.. I've seen the same sort of thing, and it doesn't really matter what religion you talk about -- zealotry is zealotry, and is equally unpleasant to deal with regardless of which specific flavour of zealotry you're having to deal with. There is much hatred and many wars that have been spawned by religious zealots over the last few thousand years, and even if the zealots in question are not advocating violence, the simple fact that they are zealots and pushing their beliefs on others is enough. It doesn't matter if they are Jehovah's Witnesses that are going door-to-door in the neighborhood, Hare Krishnas at the airport, or any other religious/ethnic sterotype. So, don't paint us with the same brush that you violently disagree with being used on you. We're not necessarily saying anything particular about your specific religion -- it's much more likely to be a general distaste for any kind of zealotry. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Python.org Postmaster Team Co-Moderator of the mailman-users and mailman-developers mailing lists -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
[Mailman-Users] Mailman Problem
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# cat /etc/passwd | grep mailman [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# I not have mailman user. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# cat /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py | grep MAILMAN MAILMAN_UID = 'list' MAILMAN_GID = 'daemon' MAILMAN_SITE_LIST = 'mailman' [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# I try to run mailman with postfix owned aliases but same problem. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# cd /var/lib/mailman/data [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/var/lib/mailman/data# ls -l total 36 -rw-r--r-- 1 postfix postfix 0 2008-09-04 10:40 aliases -rw-r--r-- 1 postfix postfix 12288 2008-09-04 10:40 aliases.db -rw-r--r-- 1 postfix postfix89 2008-09-05 09:56 chown -rw-r--r-- 1 postfix postfix10 2008-09-03 15:46 last_mailman_version -rw-r--r-- 1 postfix postfix 14114 2007-02-28 23:35 sitelist.cfg [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/var/lib/mailman/data# Howto see mailman run group, and howto change it? I dont want to change workgroup on postfix cuz i installed spamassassin and clamav, and if i make some changes on postfix the lastest software will not work. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Problem
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# cat /etc/passwd | grep mailman [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# I not have mailman user. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# cat /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py | grep MAILMAN MAILMAN_UID = 'list' MAILMAN_GID = 'daemon' MAILMAN_SITE_LIST = 'mailman' [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# I try to run mailman with postfix owned aliases but same problem. What same problem? Why can't you post a coherent, self contained question instead of making me search the archives for your prior post and my reply at http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2008-September/063198.html. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~# cd /var/lib/mailman/data [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/var/lib/mailman/data# ls -l total 36 -rw-r--r-- 1 postfix postfix 0 2008-09-04 10:40 aliases -rw-r--r-- 1 postfix postfix 12288 2008-09-04 10:40 aliases.db -rw-r--r-- 1 postfix postfix89 2008-09-05 09:56 chown -rw-r--r-- 1 postfix postfix10 2008-09-03 15:46 last_mailman_version -rw-r--r-- 1 postfix postfix 14114 2007-02-28 23:35 sitelist.cfg [EMAIL PROTECTED]:/var/lib/mailman/data# Howto see mailman run group, and howto change it? I dont want to change workgroup on postfix cuz i installed spamassassin and clamav, and if i make some changes on postfix the lastest software will not work. Your original group mismatch error in the original post said the expected group was 'daemon' and the actual group was 'nobody'. It looks like there are no actual aliases in /var/lib/mailman/data/ so where is Postfix getting your list aliases? Also, you should probably do cd /var/lib/mailman/data chown list:daemon * also, it's not clear what the file named 'chown' is. Its name is clearly a mistake, but whether it's a spurious creation or a spurious renaming of something else, I don't know. Now if Postfix were actually getting it's aliases from /var/lib/mailman/data/aliases.db, and if /var/lib/mailman/data/aliases.db were user:group list:daemon, one fix for your original group mismatch error would be to make the primary group of the 'list' user the 'daemon' group. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Harvesting of email addresses for spam from archives
David Beaumont wrote: We have had a lot of spams sent directly to our list members (i.e. not sent via mailman). All of them have subject headings taken from list emails already sent out genuinely via mailman. Almost all have our specific list prefix (but interesting not every one). Has anyone else had this recently (started 3rd Sept approx and the spammers listed from address has 'kiev' in it)? I have not seen it. I can only think of 2 ways this has happened 1) Our public archives have been harvested by a spammer. This would account for the subject headings being used. Email addresses are displayed in the archives as, literally, 'name at domain.com' which is not immediately harvestable but wouldn't take much code to convert ' at ' to '@'. How do we make this more secure? I notice this list's archives are not standard mailman format! I assume by 'this list' you mean [EMAIL PROTECTED] In what way are the archives not standard? It would take modifications to the mailman archiving code to change the obfuscation of email addresses. While it certainly would not be difficult for spammers to abuse your public archive in this way, I am a member of several Mailman lists with public archives and I post at least occasionally to them and I haven't received any spam like that you describe. 2) One of our members PCs has been attacked and the subjects and email addresses taken from there. All our emails are delivered with the reply to address being the list but the originators email showing. This would account for a small number of the spams not having our list prefix in the subject heading (they would not have the prefix if stored in the sent box of the person that created the genuine message). However I would expect at least some members to report spam with entirely non list subjects from the same spammer. What you say above all seems correct to me. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Harvesting of email addresses for spam from archives
I notice this list's archives are not standard mailman format! I assume by 'this list' you mean [EMAIL PROTECTED] In what way are the archives not standard? Thanks I mean the archives at http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Ours are at http://lists.shire.net/pipermail/dbamain/ On ours you will see the emails have the ' at ' obscuration. Yours don't seem to show the email in any form. How do we change to your format? David -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Harvesting of email addresses for spam from archives
David Beaumont wrote: I notice this list's archives are not standard mailman format! I assume by 'this list' you mean [EMAIL PROTECTED] In what way are the archives not standard? Thanks I mean the archives at http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ We don't run those. Those are the official searchable archives, as provided by an approved third-party. You could do the same, if you like. Alternatively, you might consider using a piece of third-party archive software that runs on your own hardware. That's also discussed in the documentation. Ours are at http://lists.shire.net/pipermail/dbamain/ On ours you will see the emails have the ' at ' obscuration. Yours don't seem to show the email in any form. How do we change to your format? Contact the people at mail-archive.com and ask them to provide an external third-party archive for your lists. I don't know, but they might ask you to pay them some money, unless you're big enough that they want to provide that service to you for free. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Python.org Postmaster Team Co-Moderator of the mailman-users and mailman-developers mailing lists -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Harvesting of email addresses for spam fromarchives
David Beaumont wrote: I notice this list's archives are not standard mailman format! I assume by 'this list' you mean [EMAIL PROTECTED] In what way are the archives not standard? Thanks I mean the archives at http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Ours are at http://lists.shire.net/pipermail/dbamain/ On ours you will see the emails have the ' at ' obscuration. Yours don't seem to show the email in any form. How do we change to your format? Those are the 'searchable' archive at mail-archive.com. We also have the same pipermail archive as you at http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/. If you want to have a mail-archive.com archive as your only public archive, go to http://www.mail-archive.com/faq.html#newlist for instructions on how to set up archiving for your list. Then see http://www.mail-archive.com/faq.html#import for how to import your existing archives/private/dbamain.mbox/dbamain.mbox archive. Finally, you can turn off local archiving for your list or make the archive private. Also, I note that going to http://lists.shire.net/pipermail/dbamain/ requires authentication to your web server. If this is something new to stop spammers, OK, but it might be preferable to just make the archive private, but if this has been in effect for some time, it's not likely that spammers have accessed your archive. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
[Mailman-Users] Listserv archive import into mailman
Hi, I have googled this with little luck... :-( Is there anyone who attempted an archive import of listserv archives into mailman ? I am looking for any kind of pointers/hints/suggestions/successes/failures. How you did it, was it successful, any gotcha' to be aware of ... Thanks in advance, Max -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
[Mailman-Users] Listserv archives import ?
Hi, I have googled this with little luck... :-( Is there anyone who attempted an archive import of listserv archives into mailman ? I am looking for any kind of pointers/hints/suggestions/successes/failures. How you did it, was it successful, any gotcha' to be aware of ... Thanks in advance, Max -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
[Mailman-Users] Dealing with ISPs that blacklist by message volune?
Wondering whether anyone has suggestions for dealing with this situation. I run two mailing lists for coachess (577 members) and referees (377 members) in a local volunteer youth sports group. Not exactly large lists, and typically low traffic - 3 or 4 messages on a busy day, none at all most days. But occasionally, there will be a couple of back-to-back messages e.g. a question and reply. Because it is a local organization, the list members tend to have email addresses concentrated in a few ISP domains e.g sbcglobal.net, comcast.net (plus a lot who use Yahoo or Gmail, of course). Last week and again last night, the ISP server that hosts our domain suddenly found itself on multiple blacklists. The trigger seems to be that some of our subscriber's ISP domans don't like too many incoming messages per hour from one originating domain. Example: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Domain ayso45.org has exceeded the max emails per hour. Message discarded. Worse, some of these ISPs apparently report the domain and the IP address of the originating MTA to some of the blacklist siets. In very short order, we're dead. And so are all the other lists hosted on our ISPs server. Rate-limiting messages from an originating domain seems like a brain-dead anti-SPAM algorithm that makes discsussion lists unusable. Our hosting ISP tells me that we have to keep it under 60 *outbound* messages per hour to stay under these recipient ISP's radar, and has suggested using phplist to do so). At 60 messages per hour, a single message to our small lists would take 15 hours to be distributed (if the rate limiting is global and not per recipient domain). How are other's dealing with this? Thanks, Beau -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Dealing with ISPs that blacklist by message volune?
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:mailman- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Beau James Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 2:42 PM To: mailman-users@python.org Subject: [Mailman-Users] Dealing with ISPs that blacklist by message volune? Wondering whether anyone has suggestions for dealing with this situation. I run two mailing lists for coachess (577 members) and referees (377 members) in a local volunteer youth sports group. Not exactly large lists, and typically low traffic - 3 or 4 messages on a busy day, none at all most days. But occasionally, there will be a couple of back-to-back messages e.g. a question and reply. Because it is a local organization, the list members tend to have email addresses concentrated in a few ISP domains e.g sbcglobal.net, comcast.net (plus a lot who use Yahoo or Gmail, of course). Last week and again last night, the ISP server that hosts our domain suddenly found itself on multiple blacklists. The trigger seems to be that some of our subscriber's ISP domans don't like too many incoming messages per hour from one originating domain. Example: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Domain ayso45.org has exceeded the max emails per hour. Message discarded. Worse, some of these ISPs apparently report the domain and the IP address of the originating MTA to some of the blacklist siets. In very short order, we're dead. And so are all the other lists hosted on our ISPs server. Rate-limiting messages from an originating domain seems like a brain- dead anti-SPAM algorithm that makes discsussion lists unusable. Our hosting ISP tells me that we have to keep it under 60 *outbound* messages per hour to stay under these recipient ISP's radar, and has suggested using phplist to do so). At 60 messages per hour, a single message to our small lists would take 15 hours to be distributed (if the rate limiting is global and not per recipient domain). How are other's dealing with this? Thanks, Beau Hi Beau: We do not rate limit our mailman clients and we rarely have any black list problems. When it does happen, it is usually with a single ISP and the issue is resolved within 24 hours. However this is very rare and all of our mailman clients are very happy with our service. We also make sure we have spf, domainkeys, and ptr records in place which generally keeps the major ISPs happy. We also configure our mailman server to send no more than 15 messages per smtp connection which seems to please most isps. We have one discussion list (medical software) that has over 3100 members that ends up sending over a 100,000 messages in a typical 8 hour day and this particular server has NEVER been blacklisted. I don't agree with your hosting provider's recommendation at all. If you are interested you can check our mailman service out at http://www.emwd.com/mailman.html. Have a great day and I hope your list problems work out. Mailman is a fantastic program. Don't let your hosting provider give it a bad rap. Regards, Brian -- EMWD.com - 'Powered by Techies' Blog.emwd.com - Curious comments from a web hosting techie -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Harvesting of email addresses for spam from archives
At 6:13 PM +0100 9/8/08, David Beaumont wrote: I notice this list's archives are not standard mailman format! I assume by 'this list' you mean [EMAIL PROTECTED] In what way are the archives not standard? Thanks I mean the archives at http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Ours are at http://lists.shire.net/pipermail/dbamain/ On ours you will see the emails have the ' at ' obscuration. Yours don't seem to show the email in any form. How do we change to your format? David At a quick glance it doesn't look like it would be all too terribly difficult to change. When I was using Mhonarc for the archives on one of my lists (before moving to Mailman last spring), I had a script that would change [EMAIL PROTECTED] to [EMAIL PROTECTED]. If I recall, it simply used a regex that looked for characters followed by an @ followed by more characters. It then replaced everything from the @ to the next space with It appears that the code which does the obfuscation is in ($prefix)/Mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py between lines 280 and 290 in 2.1.11. (I'm sure someone will correct me if that's wrong info) -- Bill Christensen http://greenbuilder.com/contact/ Green Building Professionals Directory: http://directory.greenbuilder.com Sustainable Building Calendar: http://www.greenbuilder.com/calendar/ Green Real Estate: http://www.greenbuilder.com/realestate/ Straw Bale Registry: http://sbregistry.greenbuilder.com/ Books/videos/software: http://bookstore.greenbuilder.com/ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Harvesting of email addresses for spam from archives
Thanks is this still the case at http://lists.shire.net/pipermail/dbamain/ ? We have just put a password on so I am hoping that will stop robots too. David -Original Message- From: Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 September 2008 20:00 To: David Beaumont Cc: mailman-users@python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Harvesting of email addresses for spam from archives It helps to disallow but the site is allowing. So possible some engines will bot the whole site: http://www.mail-archive.com/robots.txt On Mon, September 8, 2008 8:25 am, David Beaumont wrote: We have had a lot of spams sent directly to our list members (i.e. not sent via mailman). All of them have subject headings taken from list emails already sent out genuinely via mailman. Almost all have our specific list prefix (but interesting not every one). Has anyone else had this recently (started 3rd Sept approx and the spammers listed from address has 'kiev' in it)? I can only think of 2 ways this has happened 1) Our public archives have been harvested by a spammer. This would account for the subject headings being used. Email addresses are displayed in the archives as, literally, 'name at domain.com' which is not immediately harvestable but wouldn't take much code to convert ' at ' to '@'. How do we make this more secure? I notice this list's archives are not standard mailman format! 2) One of our members PCs has been attacked and the subjects and email addresses taken from there. All our emails are delivered with the reply to address being the list but the originators email showing. This would account for a small number of the spams not having our list prefix in the subject heading (they would not have the prefix if stored in the sent box of the person that created the genuine message). However I would expect at least some members to report spam with entirely non list subjects from the same spammer. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/opensourc e%40unixoses.com Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Harvesting of email addresses for spam from archives
It helps to disallow but the site is allowing. So possible some engines will bot the whole site: http://www.mail-archive.com/robots.txt On Mon, September 8, 2008 8:25 am, David Beaumont wrote: We have had a lot of spams sent directly to our list members (i.e. not sent via mailman). All of them have subject headings taken from list emails already sent out genuinely via mailman. Almost all have our specific list prefix (but interesting not every one). Has anyone else had this recently (started 3rd Sept approx and the spammers listed from address has 'kiev' in it)? I can only think of 2 ways this has happened 1) Our public archives have been harvested by a spammer. This would account for the subject headings being used. Email addresses are displayed in the archives as, literally, 'name at domain.com' which is not immediately harvestable but wouldn't take much code to convert ' at ' to '@'. How do we make this more secure? I notice this list's archives are not standard mailman format! 2) One of our members PCs has been attacked and the subjects and email addresses taken from there. All our emails are delivered with the reply to address being the list but the originators email showing. This would account for a small number of the spams not having our list prefix in the subject heading (they would not have the prefix if stored in the sent box of the person that created the genuine message). However I would expect at least some members to report spam with entirely non list subjects from the same spammer. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/opensource%40unixoses.com Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Harvesting of email addresses for spam fromarchives
Bill Christensen wrote: It appears that the code which does the obfuscation is in ($prefix)/Mailman/Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py between lines 280 and 290 in 2.1.11. (I'm sure someone will correct me if that's wrong info) That's one place. There are several others for addresses in the message body, the subject, the index page, etc. They are all in Mailman/Archiver/HyperArch.py, but look at the code around all six occurrences of if mm_cfg.ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS: -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Harvesting of email addresses for spam fromarchives
I've just checked myself and the HTML source still seems to allow robots: META NAME=robots CONTENT=index,nofollow on each message and META NAME=robots CONTENT=noindex,follow on the index page. I would want noindex and nofollow on both pages. Changing to private archives doesn't seem to make any difference to that, does it only apply to new archiving? The help is a bit vague here, does public mean the data is prepared for public posting (emails obscufacted) and private mean they are not, or does private mean they are not put on the web? i.e. which of private and public is actually the most secure? Also search engines still seem to be able to see the data e.g. type neoprene site:lists.shire.net/pipermail/dbamain/ into Google, maybe this will go in a few days? David -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Beaumont Sent: 08 September 2008 20:19 To: mailman-users@python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Harvesting of email addresses for spam fromarchives Thanks is this still the case at http://lists.shire.net/pipermail/dbamain/ ? We have just put a password on so I am hoping that will stop robots too. David -Original Message- From: Paul [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 08 September 2008 20:00 To: David Beaumont Cc: mailman-users@python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Harvesting of email addresses for spam from archives It helps to disallow but the site is allowing. So possible some engines will bot the whole site: http://www.mail-archive.com/robots.txt -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Listserv archives import ?
Karen, Thanks for you email. Are you sure that this was a listserv migration ? Looks more like a Majordomo migration. In fact, I cannot match my directory hierarchy to yours. Thanks anyway... Max Karen R McArthur wrote: **Information listed in here is not guaranteed - it worked for us** We did the following 2 step procedure: perl mboxConvert.sh listname **perl script attached** /usr/lib/mailman/bin/arch listname Karen R. McArthur [EMAIL PROTECTED] Systems Administrator Information and Library Services, Bates College Lewiston, Maine 04240 USA ph:(207)786-8236 fax:(207)786-6057 If you find that everybody else is right and you're wrong, it might just be that you're thinking outside the box. The world is yet to catch up. Max Lanfranconi wrote: Hi, I have googled this with little luck... :-( Is there anyone who attempted an archive import of listserv archives into mailman ? I am looking for any kind of pointers/hints/suggestions/successes/failures. How you did it, was it successful, any gotcha' to be aware of ... Thanks in advance, Max -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/kmcarthu%40bates.edu Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Harvesting of email addresses for spamfromarchives
David Beaumont wrote: I've just checked myself and the HTML source still seems to allow robots: META NAME=robots CONTENT=index,nofollow on each message and META NAME=robots CONTENT=noindex,follow on the index page. I would want noindex and nofollow on both pages. The META tags say don't 'index' the index pages themselves, but follow the links to the messages, and on the message pages 'index' the contents, but don't follow links. This is appropriate for a public archive. Presumably you want people to be able to search for and find stuff in a public archive. Changing to private archives doesn't seem to make any difference to that, does it only apply to new archiving? The help is a bit vague here, does public mean the data is prepared for public posting (emails obscufacted) and private mean they are not, or does private mean they are not put on the web? i.e. which of private and public is actually the most secure? If the archive is private, it can only be accessed by logging in. The 'pipermail' URL doesn't work and access is via the 'private' CGI which requires login with list member email address and password. It won't change the META tags, but they will be irrelevant since robots can't log in and access the pages. Email obfuscation has nothing to do with public/private. It depends solely on the setting on ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS in Defaults.py/mm_cfg.py. If an archive is public, archive URLs are of the form http://example.com/pipermail/list/ and anyone can access them. If an archive is private, the URL form becomes http://example.com/mailman/private/list/ and login is required to access the archive. The 'private' URL will work with a public archive, but still requires login. The 'pipermail' URL will not work with a private archive. Switching an archive from public to private changes the archive URL on the listinfo page and removes the list's symlink(s) from archives/public/ (which the pipermail alias depends on). Switching from private to public does the reverse. Private archives are accessable only to list members by login with their email address and list password, or to list admins/moderators with the list admin/moderator password. They are as secure as the passwords. They will not be accessed by spambots or search engine web crawlers because those can't log in. Also search engines still seem to be able to see the data e.g. type neoprene site:lists.shire.net/pipermail/dbamain/ into Google, maybe this will go in a few days? Your requiring of web server authentication to accesss the public archive will keep all the robots out, but it will be much longer than a few days before their existing indexing of your archive and cached pages go away, but they won't be getting any new posts in the mean time. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Listserv archives import ?
Max, You may get some response from this list from someone who's done this migration, but basically, you have to pursue this from the Listserv(r) side. Mailman can only import archives which are in *nix mbox format. The tools to do this are bin/cleanarch - to check for/fix unescaped From lines in message bodies in mbox files bin/arch - to build a pipermail archive from a mbox file or add messages from a mbox to an archive. If Listserv(r) can export its archives as a mbox, you should be close. If not, you will need to figure how to get the Listserv(r) archives into a mbox. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Harvesting of email addresses for spamfromarchives
-Original Message- From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The META tags say don't 'index' the index pages themselves, but follow the links to the messages, and on the message pages 'index' the contents, but don't follow links. This is appropriate for a public archive. Presumably you want people to be able to search for and find stuff in a public archive. Yes I understand the metatag. What we want is no emails available to the public where our members email address can easily be worked out. We achieve this very well through Nabble and their archive of our mail - www.bargeforum.org. We have never found the mailman archives very user friendly, quite basic in fact. So in this case we want nofollow and noindex. The public can search our public Nabble archives as much as they want. If the archive is private, it can only be accessed by logging in. The 'pipermail' URL doesn't work and access is via the 'private' CGI which requires login with list member email address and password. It won't change the META tags, but they will be irrelevant since robots can't log in and access the pages. Email obfuscation has nothing to do with public/private. Thanks for explaining that, it was my only concern about going private. The mailman help is not clear on this and I had not noticed the move to a passworded directory because every time I changed to private I had to be already logged in to make the change. Now logging in, making the change, logging out and testing has made it clear how it works. The great thing about mailman is support like this. But as our archive gets bigger and more useful, mailman's basic interface does fall shorter and shorter. Thanks David -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Dealing with ISPs that blacklist by message volune?
Beau James wrote: The trigger seems to be that some of our subscriber's ISP domans don't like too many incoming messages per hour from one originating domain. Worse, some of these ISPs apparently report the domain and the IP address of the originating MTA to some of the blacklist siets. In very short order, we're dead. And so are all the other lists hosted on our ISPs server. I've had issues with some ISP's rate limiting deliveries (small ISP's, not the major ones) ... but *NONE* of them have ever submitted any of my IP's to a RBL site. Perhaps something else is going on? Have you checked your outbound port 25 traffic to make sure all the traffic is yours? david -- IBM i on Power -- For when you can't afford to be out of business. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Re: [Mailman-Users] Multi list management ..
Brad Knowles writes: Khalil Abbas wrote: and please, leave the type of mailing aside, if you're a non believer don't offend other people, I didn't try to shove my beliefs into your faces and I was really offended with what you said about religion.. I've seen the same sort of thing, and it doesn't really matter what religion you talk about -- zealotry is zealotry, True enough, and zealous atheists/agnostics can get just as bad, too, but let's drop this. We don't know that it didn't happen as he said, and it's just a popular service that grows by the day. Even if he *is* spamming or pushing content out of zealotry, well, he'll find out what the world thinks of that soon enough, and we've done our best to warn him. Sure, it will have some effect on Mailman's rep (or would have, if he hadn't decided to switch to something else), but that kind of blowback does happen. That's why even the BSD and MIT licenses have warranty disclaimers in them. Not that that will stop a lawyer from suing if they think they can frighten you into paying up, nor will it stop the ignorant from blaming Mailman for the spammers' sins. We just need to get used to it. For the future, I think it's reasonable to tell people what you're doing smells like spamming (or whatever) to me, and tell them what happens to hosts that smell of spam. If they deny spamming, and get all self-righteous about the stench, too, then it's on their own heads. And of course it's up to each Mailman user to decide whether they believe that person, and help them (or not) with what they're doing. Isn't it? -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
