Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
I don't remember now who it was that was trying to write a 'how to use mail' document for their users, but I have a suggestion. A lot of the time, what you really want is to get rid of all of the quoted material altogether. A bit of usenet history is of interest here. In the very old days, we didn't have a way to quote any mail at all. We didn't have threads, either. A small number of people could not, therefore be held accountable for what they had actually said, as they kept saying that what they had said was something different. So you would get a hold of the old piece of mail, yank out the appropriate text, and say -- look here, you cannot hide, this is what you said and here it is! This happened often enough that several of us decided that it would be a good idea to put quoting into the mail and news readers we were using at the time. And I am one of the people who did so. And it made certain things infinitely more convenient. And this turned out to be a mixed blessing. Whereas before people would say: XXX has made a series of interesting proposals, but he has misunderstood RFC Blah Blah Blah where we are mandated to do This_Thing and provide Obnoxious_Headers X Y and Z. So all of his proposals are moot unless we can get a new RFC to supercede Blah Blah Blah, with quoting it became all too easy to rip XXXs proposal to shreds, point by point, instead of just nailing it once, on the main point. The problem with the approach is that, for poor old XXX the effect went from 'you need to read RFC Blah Blah Blah again, because you have misunderstood it -- or didn't know that it existed and was relevant' to You're Wrong. and You're Wrong here as well. And here. And here. Because you are an Idiot. This sort of point-by-point dressing down really had only one counterpart in face-to-face communication -- where a Superior dresses down a Subordinate, in front of an audience. The main purpose of such things has nothing to do with the Subordinate that got the dressing down, but everything to do with maintaining the Superior's authority and making the audience quiver in their boots (while thanking God that they weren't getting the chewing out). So, unsurprisingly, people who had made tiny errors in understanding or interpretation flipped right out at what they perceived as bucket-loads of nitpicking contempt hurled at them for no particularly good reason, by a person whose authority they didn't recognise. It was also widely condemned as a way to impose a hierarchical structure on something that had hitherto been working in a rather flat, equalitarian manner. And it had a chilling effect on whether people who were young, new and trying to learn things were willing to post their current thoughts on a matter. On several mailing lists I have been members of for years civility only returned when we point blank banned this form of point by point rebuttal. So, if you are writing such a document, insist that people understand that they only have to win an argument once. There are no bonus points awarded for overkill. :) Laura Creighton -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
Mark Sapiro wrote: But this time I tried unticking the Plain option for my subscription. I was surprised to see that they did start coming through as individual attachements, and that I could open them and reply to them properly. This works in both Outlook and iOS Mail. But all I see is an index and a long list of unnamed attachments. If I want to read them, I have to open them one by one to see what's in them, or look at the index numbers and count through the attachements to find the right one. Is this normal? Perhaps this is something to do with convert_html_to_plaintext being set to On? We also have mime_is_default_digest set to Plain. Outlook and iOS Mail. Both are notorius, non-compliant MUAs. There are lots of MUAs that will render a MIME digest in a useful way and still let you open and reply to individual messages. I don't know about iOS devices, and MUAs on mobile devices are a sorry lot, but reasonably recent versions of K9 Mail on Android will at least render a MIME format digest in a readable way. So this is normal behaviour for these clients? I wouldn't see anything different if those settings I mentioned were different? I'm still pleasantly surprised that changing the Plain setting lets me access the digest as well as this. Peter Shute -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] virtual domain confusion
On 03/24/2015 11:55 AM, David Benfell wrote: Hi all, I'm trying to figure out virtual domains with mailman (and, yes, postfix). I have added POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['humansci.org'] to my mm_cfg.py I didn't think to mention in my previous reply, but the above is only meaningful if you also are already using Mailman/Postfix integration - i.e. you have MTA = 'Postfix' in mm_cfg.py. Assuming you are doing this, you may also need to add Mailman's data/virtual-mailman (which will be created along with your first humansci.org list) to Postfix's virtual_alias_maps in main.cf. See http://www.list.org/mailman-install/postfix-virtual.html -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Scrubbing html
On 03/24/2015 01:33 PM, Nancy Cullen wrote: Hi, hoping someone can help me with settings. The group that I am listkeeper for just recently started allowing html but our digest still shows this message at the end of each post: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... And there will be a link to the HTML escaped part in the list's archives. This is in the plain text format digest. The MIME format digest will contain the message as it was sent from the list to regular members. There is no way to include HTML as HTML in a plain text digest, and including it as text is not useful and just makes the digest hard to read. Unset 'plain' for your list's digest members and set Digest options - mime_is_default_digest to MIME, and then those users with MUAs that don't render the MIME digest appropriately will have to switch back to plain and not see the HTML except in the archive. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
Laura Creighton wrote: A lot of the time, what you really want is to get rid of all of the quoted material altogether. A bit of usenet history is of interest here. In the very old days, we didn't have a way to quote any mail at all. We didn't have threads, either. . . . This happened often enough that several of us decided that it would be a good idea to put quoting into the mail and news readers we were using at the time. And I am one of the people who did so. And it made certain things infinitely more convenient. . . . This sort of point-by-point dressing down really had only one counterpart in face-to-face communication -- where a Superior dresses down a Subordinate, in front of an audience. The main purpose of such things has nothing to do with the Subordinate that got the dressing down, but everything to do with maintaining the Superior's authority and making the audience quiver in their boots (while thanking God that they weren't getting the chewing out). So, unsurprisingly, people who had made tiny errors in understanding or interpretation flipped right out at what they perceived as bucket-loads of nitpicking contempt hurled at them for no particularly good reason, by a person whose authority they didn't recognise. It was also widely condemned as a way to impose a hierarchical structure on something that had hitherto been working in a rather flat, equalitarian manner. And it had a chilling effect on whether people who were young, new and trying to learn things were willing to post their current thoughts on a matter. Thanks for that bit of reply style history! I've only been using email since quoting became a common feature, so I never saw this before and after effect. Have you seen a reduction in this dressing down style of reply since top-posting became common? Peter Shute -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
Lindsay Haisley wrote: And if html wasn't the default for so many clients. Don't get me started! To the best of my knowledge, there is no unified standard for HTML-ized email. Microsoft has Rich Text, Apple has another standard. Digests can get mucked up The default for MS Outlook seems to be HTML rather than Rich Text. beyond usability if people use HTML email and it's included in digests. Hopefully all HTMLized posts to a digested list are multipart/mixed with both a text/plain and a text/html part so the HTML can be nuked before its digested and/or sent out to subscribers. If not, all bets are off, but such emails are usually spam. I've seen a plain text section that didn't match the html version (if I'm remembering that incident correctly). Nonetheless, IMHO HTMLized email the way of the future so we'd better get used to dealing with it. Yes, whether we like it or not. It's a pity though that such complex HTML is used. Do we really need anything more than the ability to bold and underline? I'd be happy with some of the basic Structured Text formatting commands, which have the advantage that they're still intelligible in plain text. Peter Shute -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
On 03/24/2015 02:53 PM, Peter Shute wrote: But all I see is an index and a long list of unnamed attachments. If I want to read them, I have to open them one by one to see what's in them, or look at the index numbers and count through the attachements to find the right one. Is this normal? Perhaps this is something to do with convert_html_to_plaintext being set to On? We also have mime_is_default_digest set to Plain. So this is normal behaviour for these clients? I wouldn't see anything different if those settings I mentioned were different? I'm still pleasantly surprised that changing the Plain setting lets me access the digest as well as this. No. This has nothing to do with convert_html_to_plaintext or any other content filtering settings, and mime_is_default_digest affects only the plain/MIME digest format choice for new subscribers. Once you are a list member, you (or the list admin) control your setting and the default is irrelevant. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
On 03/24/2015 02:03 PM, Peter Shute wrote: But this time I tried unticking the Plain option for my subscription. I was surprised to see that they did start coming through as individual attachements, and that I could open them and reply to them properly. This works in both Outlook and iOS Mail. But all I see is an index and a long list of unnamed attachments. If I want to read them, I have to open them one by one to see what's in them, or look at the index numbers and count through the attachements to find the right one. Is this normal? Perhaps this is something to do with convert_html_to_plaintext being set to On? We also have mime_is_default_digest set to Plain. Outlook and iOS Mail. Both are notorius, non-compliant MUAs. There are lots of MUAs that will render a MIME digest in a useful way and still let you open and reply to individual messages. I don't know about iOS devices, and MUAs on mobile devices are a sorry lot, but reasonably recent versions of K9 Mail on Android will at least render a MIME format digest in a readable way. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
On Tue, 24 Mar 2015, Lucio Chiappetti wrote: On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, Thomas Gramstad wrote: On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, Lucio Chiappetti wrote: Subscribing in digest mode allows me to receive one cumulative post per day which is something many people can appreciate (at least those who subscribe to mailing list, and then complain because they are interrupted in their work by too many new mails arriving) How can mail interrupt? Turn off noisy bells and whistles, sort list mail to their proper folders to be read at a suitable time, and exercise some work discipline! :) Mail arrives all the time anyway, so people need to be able to deal with that. A proper MUA shall allow to read each message in the digest as if it were a single e-mail (and reply, archive, forward etc. etc.). But people don't have proper MUAs, or if they do, many don't know how to use them. Well, sorry, too bad for them ! :-) So if you allow the digest version Digest version is something the (knowledgeable) user enables in the personal setting. As list owner / moderator I can decide to disable this setting, which is something many people appreciate, as it prevents hard to read comments on big blobs of text, and dysfunctional Subject: lines. I may agree it would not be a good idea for the list administrator to configure a list to send MIME digests *as default*, but it is good for users to be able to enable them. Well, sorry, too bad for them ! :-) Thomas Gramstad tho...@ifi.uio.no -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
In a message of Mon, 23 Mar 2015 12:55:36 -0500, Lindsay Haisley writes: I know of exactly one that's proper in this regard. One of the reasons I keep Evolution as my primary MUA is because it allows me to extract a message/rfc822 part from a multipart/mixed MIME structure and save it _as an email_ in the mail folder of my choice, at which point I can deal with it as I wish. T-bird doesn't do this, or didn't used to. Certainly Apple mail products don't even come close, nor do Microsoft MUAs. Does anyone know of any others that can do this? This ability is kind of my litmus test for an MUA. nmh can do this. http://www.nongnu.org/nmh/ Laura -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Disable any notifications after user subscibes via LISTNAME-join@DOMAIN?
Hi Mailman users, When a user tries to subscribe to the list by sending email to LISTNAME-join@DOMAIN, he/she receives an email reply with subject The results of your email commands, etc. Is there a way to disable any email notifications sent to the user after he subscibes to the list via LISTNAME-join@DOMAIN? Thanks, Danijel -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Information!!
Hello Would anyone tell me if there are cases of Mailman Dicussion List integration with IBM Notes / Domino v9? Thanks!!! Rafael Lamari Esta mensagem, incluindo seus anexos, pode conter informação confidencial e/ou privilegiada. Portanto, fica o seu receptor notificado de que não deve usar, copiar, divulgar ou tomar qualquer atitude com base nestas informações. Se você recebeu esta mensagem por engano, solicitamos que você a apague. Quaisquer considerações ou opiniões contidas nesta mensagem pertencem somente ao autor remetente e não representam necessariamente a opinião da VB Officeware, a não ser que esteja descrito explicitamente que o remetente está autorizado a representá-la. Grato pela sua colaboração. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] update trashed Mailman... :-/
Applied a bunch of updates last night, including Mailman... now Mailman is trashed again. :-( I remember fixing this when I first setup Mailman, not amused the an update restores the issue. Now I need to remember what I fixed last time. John Command died with status 2: /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listname. Command output: Group mismatch error. Mailman expected the mail wrapper script to be executed as group mailman, but the system's mail server executed the mail script as group nogroup. Try tweaking the mail server to run the script as group mailman, or re-run configure, providing the command line option `--with-mail-gid=nogroup'. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 10:22:24AM +1100, Peter Shute wrote: Do we really need anything more than the ability to bold and underline? Butterick (and I agree entirely with him here) is against underlining: http://practicaltypography.com/underlining.html I'd be happy with some of the basic Structured Text formatting commands Generally speaking, if I'm writing a long mail, I'll use Markdown. A few readers will stylize it; but as observed, it looks fine as is. -- all the succession and repetition of massed humanity ... Those vile bodies -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Scrubbing html
I do have the Digest Options set to MIME, that is why I am confused that we still got the scrubbed message!! Thanks, Nancy At 06:34 PM 3/24/2015, Mark Sapiro wrote: On 03/24/2015 01:33 PM, Nancy Cullen wrote: Hi, hoping someone can help me with settings. The group that I am listkeeper for just recently started allowing html but our digest still shows this message at the end of each post: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... And there will be a link to the HTML escaped part in the list's archives. This is in the plain text format digest. The MIME format digest will contain the message as it was sent from the list to regular members. There is no way to include HTML as HTML in a plain text digest, and including it as text is not useful and just makes the digest hard to read. Unset 'plain' for your list's digest members and set Digest options - mime_is_default_digest to MIME, and then those users with MUAs that don't render the MIME digest appropriately will have to switch back to plain and not see the HTML except in the archive. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/cybergram%40eastlink.ca -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
Steven D'Aprano wrote: The default for MS Outlook seems to be HTML rather than Rich Text. What Outlook, Hotmail etc. call Rich Text is in fact HTML, not to be confused with Microsoft's interchange Rich Text Format, RTF. Outlook offers Plain text, HTML and Rich text as formatting options, so I assume the Rich text they're talking about might actually be RTF. Peter Shute -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
Peter Shute writes: But this time I tried unticking the Plain option for my subscription. I was surprised to see that they did start coming through as individual attachements, and that I could open them and reply to them properly. This works in both Outlook and iOS Mail. But all I see is an index and a long list of unnamed attachments. Don't expect Microsoft and Apple MUAs to implement Internet standards sanely, because they don't. Those MUAs are equivalent to the large button cellphones designed for children and the elderly: very easy to for basic operations (and in the case of these MUAs, with lots of attention to groupware like calendars). But people who use those MUAs are going to lose when presented with sophisticated or high-volume mail flows. If you have a lot of them on a list, disable digests. If they need digests, tell them to get a real MUA or shut up. We can't do anything about the design principles Apple and Microsoft use except deplore them (and we could be wrong -- look at the market valuations of those companies ;-). -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 10:22:24AM +1100, Peter Shute wrote: Lindsay Haisley wrote: And if html wasn't the default for so many clients. Don't get me started! To the best of my knowledge, there is no unified standard for HTML-ized email. Microsoft has Rich Text, Apple has another standard. Digests can get mucked up The default for MS Outlook seems to be HTML rather than Rich Text. What Outlook, Hotmail etc. call Rich Text is in fact HTML, not to be confused with Microsoft's interchange Rich Text Format, RTF. There is an Enriched Text standard for email, which supports basic formatting without the bulk and security implementations of HTML, but alas nobody uses it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enriched_text -- Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
Peter Shute writes: I've seen a plain text section that didn't match the html version (if I'm remembering that incident correctly). Indeed, occasionally you'll see the arrogant your MUA doesn't deal with MIME properly notice in a text/plain MIME part, rather than in the preamble. Nonetheless, IMHO HTMLized email the way of the future so we'd better get used to dealing with it. Yes, whether we like it or not. It's a pity though that such complex HTML is used. Do we really need anything more than the ability to bold and underline? I'd be happy with some of the basic Structured Text formatting commands, which have the advantage that they're still intelligible in plain text. You'd be amazed what teenage girls will do in an HTML email using a WYSIWYG editor. The point of the brain damage is like proprietary drivers in the Linux kernel: trying to provide features that the competition doesn't, in a non-standard way so that they can't just fix their editors. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] Scrubbing html
On 03/24/2015 05:46 PM, Nancy Cullen wrote: I do have the Digest Options set to MIME, that is why I am confused that we still got the scrubbed message!! Is the digest members 'plain' setting unchecked in the admin Membership List (or her options Get MIME or Plain Text Digests? set to MIME) or have you only set Digest options - mime_is_default_digest to MIME. The latter setting only affects the default for the former setting for new members. The only other possibility is Non-digest options - scrub_nondigest but that would affect all messages, not just digests. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
On Wed, 2015-03-25 at 10:42 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: Yes, whether we like it or not. It's a pity though that such complex HTML is used. Do we really need anything more than the ability to bold and underline? I'd be happy with some of the basic Structured Text formatting commands, which have the advantage that they're still intelligible in plain text. You'd be amazed what teenage girls will do in an HTML email using a WYSIWYG editor. The point of the brain damage is like proprietary drivers in the Linux kernel: trying to provide features that the competition doesn't, in a non-standard way so that they can't just fix their editors. I've always admonished list owners for MM installations that I host at FMP to avoid HTML-ized email. It plays hell with digesting, and there's no single standard for interpreting it so that what the composer of an HTML-ized post may see in his/her WYSIWYG editor may or may not be what any particular recipient may see. It introduces an egregious amount of bloat into an email, and is a huge bandwidth suck when such an email is sent out via a list, not to mention that on a list a good fraction of recipients is pretty much guaranteed to not be able to see what the composer intended. As the Internet has evolved, however, I've observed that there's a steady, unrelenting pressure toward enabling messaging of all sorts, including email, to handle a richer variety of content options - bolding, fonts, images, advanced formatting, etc. HTML appears to be the best markup standard for this and variations of it have been widely adopted for this purpose. One of two things is eventually going to have to happen. Either people who design and publish standards for email are going to have to come to agreement on a proper standard for this kind of content enhancement, and people who design MUAs and email utilities such as mailing list managers are going to have to come to grips with these standards and implement them, or email as a form of communication will eventually go the way of Usenet, archie, gopher and other extinct (or nearly so) protocols and become an Internet relic along with all the spam that it makes possible. Email will be replaced for popular usage with such things as FB messaging and its descendants, and we'll see a movement away from public open standards toward proprietary protocols. Email as a concept is extremely powerful, and how this plays out will be definitive in how the Internet itself evolves. Running a small online web hosting and ESP provision service, I've come to learn that when people's websites go down, they'll call and bitch about it and implore you to fix it ASAP, but if their email goes down they'll come looking for you with a rope. Human communication is vital, and full communication on the Internet must eventually involve a visual as well as a textural component, just as verbal face to face communication involves body language. Teenage girls may indeed lead the way, just as we can learn what next year's high fashion in womens' wear will be by observing what hookers are wearing this year. -- Lindsay Haisley | The only unchanging certainty FMP Computer Services |is the certainty of change 512-259-1190 | http://www.fmp.com| - Ancient wisdom, all cultures -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
Lindsay Haisley writes: One of two things is eventually going to have to happen. Either people who design and publish standards for email are going to have to come to agreement on a proper standard for this kind of content enhancement, We have that, IMO. It's called HTML5 + link rel=stylesheet Unfortunately, class and id attributes can easily be abused, but even so it's not hard to be disciplined if you want to be disciplined. and people who design MUAs and email utilities such as mailing list managers are going to have to come to grips with these standards and implement them, Aye, there's the rub. They don't want to. It involves more thought and less monopoly power. or email as a form of communication will eventually go the way of Usenet, archie, gopher and other extinct (or nearly so) protocols and become an Internet relic I'm not so pessimistic. along with all the spam that it makes possible. I'm not so optimistic. ;-) -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, Lindsay Haisley wrote: I know of exactly one that's proper in this regard. One of the reasons I keep Evolution as my primary MUA is because it allows me to extract a message/rfc822 part from a multipart/mixed MIME structure and save it _as an email_ in the mail folder of my choice, at which point I can deal with it as I wish. Same behaviour I get with alpine (although not native, see below). T-bird doesn't do this, or didn't used to. Certainly Apple mail products don't even come close, nor do Microsoft MUAs. Does anyone know of any others that can do this? I tried T-bird only to help a friend to stay away from Microsoft MUAs, or ISP webmailers. I was deluded about it (for instance the way to handle the addressbook in alpine is far superior) but did not try MIME digest handling. I did not try Fossa-Mail (which stays to T-bird the same way Palemoon stays to Firefox). Did not try Mutt (of which I heard much good). People here use either Alpine, or Kmail, or Squirrel web mailer or T-bird. To be fair, the native handling of MIME digests in Alpine is far from elegant. You can View the index of the digest (as the index of attachments in any multipart message), and if you point to one of the message/rfc822 components in the (crowded) index and click, it will open it as an e-mail. I overcame this using the capability of pine to program user keystrokes, and to feed messages in external scripts. So I point to the digest message, and type a capital D. That will spawn a one-liner script and then move to the folder contains the expanded digest. The one-liner uses a procmail utility to split the digest into a folder: formail +1 -ds ! /poseidon/lucio/mail/temporary -- Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy) For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html Do not like Firefox =29 ? Get Pale Moon ! http://www.palemoon.org -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
On 3/24/2015 8:59 AM, Thomas Gramstad wrote: How can mail interrupt? [...] Mail arrives all the time anyway, so people need to be able to deal with that. Exactly. Mail arrives when it does and I read it when I do. I really don't know why so many people feel compelled to check each message as it arrives. I also don't generally understand most people's perceived need for digests*. IME they only work well when the list is well-moderated, which usually involved grouping topics and some editing (removing excessive quoting, for one). I'm on one list that does that and it works nicely, all the rest of my lists, and there must be 20-30, are individual messages. It works for me. *also IME these people tend to think 20 total messages a day is a lot of email, and one digest email of 20 individual messages still only counts as one in their minds. There's also a user-discipline issue of replying to mid-thread messages, but that's another rathole. Laura- thanks for the discussion of the pre-quoting years. z! -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] update trashed Mailman... :-/
On 03/24/2015 08:46 AM, John wrote: Applied a bunch of updates last night, including Mailman... now Mailman is trashed again. :-( I remember fixing this when I first setup Mailman, not amused the an update restores the issue. Now I need to remember what I fixed last time. John Command died with status 2: /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listname. Command output: Group mismatch error. See the FAQ at http://wiki.list.org/x/4030645. Note that if your MTA is Postfix and delivers to Mailman using aliases, you can probably fix this by ensuring that the owner of the aliases.db file that contains Mailman's aliases is 'mailman'. -- Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] update trashed Mailman... :-/
I remember last time 'tweaking the mail server to run the script as group mailman'. After some file rummaging, I decided to rerun configure --with-mail-gid=nogroup remake mailman. Lists are working again. Hopefully that will permanently solve the issue... John On 3/24/15 8:46 AM, John wrote: Applied a bunch of updates last night, including Mailman... now Mailman is trashed again. :-( I remember fixing this when I first setup Mailman, not amused the an update restores the issue. Now I need to remember what I fixed last time. John Command died with status 2: /usr/lib/mailman/mail/mailman post listname. Command output: Group mismatch error. Mailman expected the mail wrapper script to be executed as group mailman, but the system's mail server executed the mail script as group nogroup. Try tweaking the mail server to run the script as group mailman, or re-run configure, providing the command line option `--with-mail-gid=nogroup'. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, Thomas Gramstad wrote: On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, Lucio Chiappetti wrote: Subscribing in digest mode allows me to receive one cumulative post per day which is something many people can appreciate (at least those who subscribe to mailing list, and then complain because they are interrupted in their work by too many new mails arriving) A proper MUA shall allow to read each message in the digest as if it were a single e-mail (and reply, archive, forward etc. etc.). But people don't have proper MUAs, or if they do, many don't know how to use them. Well, sorry, too bad for them ! :-) So if you allow the digest version Digest version is something the (knowledgeable) user enables in the personal setting. I may agree it would not be a good idea for the list administrator to configure a list to send MIME digests *as default*, but it is good for users to be able to enable them. -- Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy) For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html Do not like Firefox =29 ? Get Pale Moon ! http://www.palemoon.org -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] virtual domain confusion
Hi all, I'm trying to figure out virtual domains with mailman (and, yes, postfix). I have added POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['humansci.org'] to my mm_cfg.py But when I go to my administration page, I see no option to create a list under that domain. How is this supposed to be done? Thanks! -- David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org pgpsN0poLvr71.pgp Description: PGP Digital Signature -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
On Tue, 24 Mar 2015, Thomas Gramstad wrote: On Tue, 24 Mar 2015, Lucio Chiappetti wrote: On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, Thomas Gramstad wrote: On Mon, 23 Mar 2015, Lucio Chiappetti wrote: digest mode allows o receive one cumulative post per day which is something many people can appreciate (at least those who complain because they are interrupted in their work by too many new mails arriving) How can mail interrupt? I am not saying I am one of those who are so annoyed when for instance one gets me too replies on an internal organization discussion list (or simply condolences for an obituary of a colleague) ... in which case I suggest them to use digest mode. However mailing lists are usually a second priority to our main activity, be they discussion or technical support ones. So while it is good to reply asap to a person-to-person mail message, it is also good to wait to deal with mailing list messages. This is less distracting, allows to cool down discussions, to enforce the rule of one-post-per-day in the policy of some mailing lists etc. etc. ... so thanks to mailman authors for having it ! But people don't have proper MUAs, or if they do, many don't know how to use them. Well, sorry, too bad for them ! :-) Digest version is something the (knowledgeable) user enables in the personal setting. As list owner / moderator I can decide to disable this setting, It is surely in your power and rights :-) which is something many people appreciate, as it prevents hard to read comments on big blobs of text, and dysfunctional Subject: lines. Usually the clueless which will reply to a digest are the same clueless who are unable to turn it on if it is off by default, and the same clueless unable to find a proper MUA and use it. As list owner / moderator I can decide to disable this setting, ... Well, sorry, too bad for them ! :-) Or pity for them :-) ... the poor knowledgeable users -- Lucio Chiappetti - INAF/IASF - via Bassini 15 - I-20133 Milano (Italy) For more info : http://www.iasf-milano.inaf.it/~lucio/personal.html Do not like Firefox =29 ? Get Pale Moon ! http://www.palemoon.org -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
[Mailman-Users] Scrubbing html
Hi, hoping someone can help me with settings. The group that I am listkeeper for just recently started allowing html but our digest still shows this message at the end of each post: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... Thank you for any help! Nancy -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
Thomas Gramstad wrote: Subscribing in digest mode allows me to receive one cumulative post per day (about, unless there is more traffic) and deal with them not interrupting my other activities. A proper MUA shall allow to read each message in the digest as if it were a single e-mail (and reply, archive, forward etc. etc.). But people don't have proper MUAs, or if they do, many don't know how to use them. So if you allow the digest version, somebody will respond to one of the messages in the digest version with a oneliner response which is top posted, followed by the quotation of the whole digest, and with a pointless Subject: (digest number) thrown in for good measure. All this talk about digests and being able to extract the original emails prompted me to try setting one of my subscriptions to digest mode. I had previously tried this and found that the resulting emails were presented to me in Outlook as one long email, and that replying to one of the contained emails involved editing out all the other emails, and adjusting the subject line. The reply behaviour of our list's digest members suggests they have to do the same thing (but often forget). But this time I tried unticking the Plain option for my subscription. I was surprised to see that they did start coming through as individual attachements, and that I could open them and reply to them properly. This works in both Outlook and iOS Mail. But all I see is an index and a long list of unnamed attachments. If I want to read them, I have to open them one by one to see what's in them, or look at the index numbers and count through the attachements to find the right one. Is this normal? Perhaps this is something to do with convert_html_to_plaintext being set to On? We also have mime_is_default_digest set to Plain. Peter Shute -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list
Carl Zwanzig wrote: How can mail interrupt? [...] Mail arrives all the time anyway, so people need to be able to deal with that. Exactly. Mail arrives when it does and I read it when I do. I really don't know why so many people feel compelled to check each message as it arrives. Have you ever been in the situation where you're waiting for an important email which must be acted on quickly, and your mailbox is also suddenly receiving a flood of emails from a normally quiet list? It's so easy to miss the important emails, especially on a phone with it's tiny screen. Many of us deal with this by creating a message rule that filters the unimportant list mail to a folder to be read at leisure. But many people don't know how to create message rules. When pop3 mail was common it wasn't possible to have the rules running server-side, so many users still don't even know it's possible. So they panic and either: - unsubscribe - reply to the list demanding that people stop talking about this off topic subject - change to digest mode Peter Shute -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3 Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org
Re: [Mailman-Users] virtual domain confusion
On 03/24/2015 11:55 AM, David Benfell wrote:
I'm trying to figure out virtual domains with mailman (and, yes,
postfix). I have added
POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['humansci.org']
to my mm_cfg.py
You probable also need
add_virtualhost('www.humansci.org', 'humansci.org')
in mm_cfg.py (assuming www.humansci.org is the web domain and
humansci.org is the email domain).
But when I go to my administration page, I see no option to create a
list under that domain. How is this supposed to be done?
Go to http://www.humansci.org/mailman/create or whatever the appropriate
path is for Mailman CGIs in your installation with the web domain of
this host and create the list, or use bin/newlist with
--urlhost=www.humansci.org.
--
Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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