Re: [Mailman-Users] Suggestions for handling archive growth

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/14/2016 10:36 AM, Gretchen R Beck wrote:
> 
> As our archives approach a terabyte in size, I was wondering if anyone had 
> suggestions or tips for handling archive growth and storage. I've got some 
> ideas, but am wondering what others might be doing.  Just as background, we 
> have a few thousand lists, and support a mid-sized university population, 
> with list creation open to faculty, staff, and students.


It won't help a lot, but remove all the periodic .txt.gz files and
remove the cron/nightly_gzip job from Mailman's crontab. While the
.txt.gz files conceivably save bandwidth when the files are downloaded,
they serve no other useful purpose. The .txt files they come from are
all still there.

If you want to 'prune' older messages from the archives, there is a
script at  (mirrored at
https://fog.ccsf.edu/~msapiro/scripts/prune_arch) that can help with that.

Depending on list configuration, but with normal defaults, there will be
two copies of each scrubbed attachment in the
archives/private/LISTNAME/attachments/ directory. This is because when
scrub_nondigest is No and the list is digestable, the non-plain-text
attachments are scrubbed both from the archive and from the plain text
digest. After a while, the ones whose links were in the plain text
digest are probably not needed any more as few if any copies of the
original digests still exist, and the attachment can always be found via
the archive link.

The trick here is to identify which attachments were scrubbed from a
digest and can therefore be removed.

On the other hand, these days you can buy a couple of terabytes worth of
HDD for $100 US so maybe that's an easier way to go.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Sean McBride writes:

 > I'm not aware of the problems you refer to.  "launchctl load -w"
 > works fine in my experience, though the details of exactly how it
 > works have changed between releases.  Like the man page says: "In
 > previous versions, this option would modify the configuration
 > file. Now the state of the Disabled key is stored elsewhere
 > on-disk..."  Perhaps that's what you're talking about?

Well, "load" is described in a section labeled "Legacy Subcommands",
which begins with dark hints about unimplemented commands.  It does
work for me, but what I read in a thread on the Apple site was that
Apple doesn't promise to ensure that the legacy commands will continue
to work.  On the other hand, the recipe given there involving
bootstrap, enable, and kickstart, did what I expected only erratically.

As long as load still works I'm happy.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] duplicate entry: "mail...@lists.example.org" in virtual-mailman.db

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/14/2016 08:58 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 04/13/2016 10:19 AM, Manuel Vögele wrote:
>>
>> What am I doing wrong?
> 
> 
> Nothing really. You have just discovered two bugs. First, the appending
> of VIRTUAL_MAILMAN_LOCAL_DOMAIN should also be applied in the SITE
> ADDRESSES stanza, and the addition of the SITE ADDRESSES stanza doesn't
> anticipate that the site list itself is in a virtual domain.
> 
> I'll fix these bugs.


This is reported as a single bug at
. It is fixed and the
fix is
.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Suggestions for handling archive growth

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 4/14/2016 10:36 AM, Gretchen R Beck wrote:


As our archives approach a terabyte in size, I was wondering if anyone
had suggestions or tips for handling archive growth and storage. I've got
some ideas, but am wondering what others might be doing.  Just as
background, we have a few thousand lists, and support a mid-sized
university population, with list creation open to faculty, staff, and
students.


My first thoughts involve purging old/unused lists, message retention 
policies, whether attachments have been scrubbed- that sort of thing. Are 
there single lists that have -huge- archives or are there just a lot of 
lists with small archives?


For instance, if none of a list's members are still active accounts, does it 
make sense to keep the archive online, or to retain it at all?


z!
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Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/14/2016 02:53 PM, Sean McBride wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:16:33 -0700, Mark Sapiro said:
> 
>> You also need to register as a user and let us know your registered user
>> name.
> 
> Yes, sorry, I read too fast.  Done that too now. :)


And you now should have permission.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Sean McBride]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 14:16:33 -0700, Mark Sapiro said:

>I've done that now in the online versions (refresh the page if it isn't
>the 'April 14' version. The update will be in the tarball of the next
>(2.1.22) release.

Nice!

>That section has a highlighted note at the top saying: "Much of the
>following is no longer applicable to more recent versions of MacOSX. See
>the FAQ at http://wiki.list.org/x/O4A9 for links to more recent
>information." I think that's sufficient.

Up to you of course, but everything after that useful first sentence is so 
incredibly out of date that there's really no point having it there. :)  All 
the OS X versions mentioned there have had no security updates in years, so 
running something like mailman on them would be insanity, and should be 
discouraged IMHO. :)

But let me write my currently vapourwave newer notes and you can decide then if 
you want to paste it in...

>You also need to register as a user and let us know your registered user
>name.

Yes, sorry, I read too fast.  Done that too now. :)

Cheers,

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Re: [Mailman-Users] New Mailman lists - inform users

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/14/2016 01:43 PM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> Therefore it would be helpful if we could mass-mail the same 
> "welcome"-message which is usually sent to new subscribers. 
> 
> What are our possibilities here? Or can all subscribers ask themselves for 
> such a message?


See the script at 
(mirrored at . It
only does one user at a time, but ou could do something like:

#~/bin/bash
for list in `mailman/bin/list_lists --bare`; do
for user in `mailman/bin/list_members $list`; do
mailman/bin/get_welcome --mail $list $user
done
done

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Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/14/2016 12:57 PM, Sean McBride wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:07:29 -0700, Mark Sapiro said:
> 
>>> - the docs say "Mailman should work pretty much out of the box with a
>> standard Postfix installation. It has been tested with various Postfix
>> versions up to and including Postfix 2.1.5."  I'm assuming that version
>> number is just out-of-date?  Does mailman work with modern postfix?
>>
>>
>> Yes. I will update the installation manual.


I've done that now in the online versions (refresh the page if it isn't
the 'April 14' version. The update will be in the tarball of the next
(2.1.22) release.


> Thanks!
> 
>> I am guessing the Mac OS X docs you refer to are the wiki page at
>> .
> 
> Yes, and also section 15.3 of mailman-install.pdf.


That section has a highlighted note at the top saying: "Much of the
following is no longer applicable to more recent versions of MacOSX. See
the FAQ at http://wiki.list.org/x/O4A9 for links to more recent
information." I think that's sufficient.


>> If so, you can update that yourself.
>> See the first paragraph at  to obtain
>> write access to the wiki.
> 
> email sent, thanks.


You also need to register as a user and let us know your registered user
name.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Steve Burling]

On 14 Apr 2016, at 12:03, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:


If you're working with Mailman 2, dubious.  There may never be another
release of Mailman 2 (but Mark is authoritative).  And Mac OS X has
been somewhat unkind to us (Apple's Mailman has been a long-term
source of support requests to which we mostly have to reply "uuuhhh
... install from source and we'll get back to you, Apple's Mailman is
*weird*".


You know, I've heard this for years, but some time ago (a long time ago, 
now that I think of it :-) I diff'd the Apple-supplied Mailman with the 
appropriate source tarball, and they were essentially identical. I think 
the only thing that was different was the startup script.


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[Mailman-Users] New Mailman lists - inform users

[Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users]

Hi all 

We have moved 3 mailing lists from another system to a Mailman installation 
(Mailman version 2.1.20). All user addresses have been imported from the old 
installation, so a user should not notice the new software - unless he wants to 
change something in his subscription. 

Therefore it would be helpful if we could mass-mail the same "welcome"-message 
which is usually sent to new subscribers. 

What are our possibilities here? Or can all subscribers ask themselves for such 
a message?

Thank you, Christian 


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Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Sean McBride]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016 09:07:29 -0700, Mark Sapiro said:

>> - the docs say "Mailman should work pretty much out of the box with a
>standard Postfix installation. It has been tested with various Postfix
>versions up to and including Postfix 2.1.5."  I'm assuming that version
>number is just out-of-date?  Does mailman work with modern postfix?
>
>
>Yes. I will update the installation manual.

Thanks!

>I am guessing the Mac OS X docs you refer to are the wiki page at
>.

Yes, and also section 15.3 of mailman-install.pdf.

>If so, you can update that yourself.
>See the first paragraph at  to obtain
>write access to the wiki.

email sent, thanks.

Cheers,

-- 

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[Mailman-Users] Suggestions for handling archive growth

[Gretchen R Beck]

Hi Folks,


As our archives approach a terabyte in size, I was wondering if anyone had 
suggestions or tips for handling archive growth and storage. I've got some 
ideas, but am wondering what others might be doing.  Just as background, we 
have a few thousand lists, and support a mid-sized university population, with 
list creation open to faculty, staff, and students.


If there is a better place to ask this question, please point me there.


Thanks!


Gretchen Beck

Carnegie Mellon
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Re: [Mailman-Users] duplicate entry: "mail...@lists.example.org" in virtual-mailman.db

[Manuel Vögele]

Thanks for your help.

I cannot remove the @localhost mapping because that would cause postfix
to append @example.org which is then handled by dovecot (and thus will
fail). This is also the reason wh i can't put @example.org as the
preferred host for the list. However since this is caused by a bug which
will eventually be fixed i decided to workaround it with a manually
created mapping

mail...@lists.example.org mailman@localhost

which supersedes the faulty entry created by mailman.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Sean McBride]

On Fri, 15 Apr 2016 01:03:18 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull said:

>If you're working with Mailman 2, dubious.  There may never be another
>release of Mailman 2 (but Mark is authoritative).  And Mac OS X has
>been somewhat unkind to us (Apple's Mailman has been a long-term
>source of support requests to which we mostly have to reply "uuuhhh
>... install from source and we'll get back to you, Apple's Mailman is
>*weird*".

Yes, I've heard.  Of course, Apple hasn't included mailman since OS X 10.6, and 
likely never will again given their dislike of GPL3.

>Mailman 3 docs would be very welcome.

I'm sticking with 2 for now, as I'm familiar with its web UI and it seems 
better documented, more widely used, less bleeding edge, etc. :)

> > - OS X's native equivalent of cron is launchd, would you accept
> >   launchd config files matching those of crontab.in for inclusion?
>
>I don't know if Mark will, but I will definitely ensure they get into
>Mailman 3, or at least are well-documented (Barry makes the decisions
>about code, but docs are always welcome).
>
>Question for you: last I heard, the "launchctl load -w" approach was
>deprecated by Apple, but there was no well-documented replacement.
>Worse, there was no replacement that actually worked in my
>experience. ;-)  Has that situation improved?

I'm not aware of the problems you refer to.  "launchctl load -w" works fine in 
my experience, though the details of exactly how it works have changed between 
releases.  Like the man page says: "In previous versions, this option would 
modify the configuration file. Now the state of the Disabled key is stored 
elsewhere on-disk..."  Perhaps that's what you're talking about?

>Note: Mailman likely has to work on at least Yosemite, possibly
>Mavericks or even Mountain Lion.  Knowing Apple, even if there's a
>working canonical incantation for the most recent El Capitan, likely
>it hasn't been backported. :-(

I'll be doing this on El Capitan.  So far I can say that mailman builds. :)

I guess I'll keep notes, and share them here when done.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/14/2016 06:32 AM, Sean McBride wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm setting up mailman for the first time, and have a few questions/comments:
> 
> - the docs say "Mailman should work pretty much out of the box with a 
> standard Postfix installation. It has been tested with various Postfix 
> versions up to and including Postfix 2.1.5."  I'm assuming that version 
> number is just out-of-date?  Does mailman work with modern postfix?


Yes. I will update the installation manual.


> - I'm doing this on OS X, and notice the docs for that OS are all *very* out 
> of date.  Would you accept a patch to update the docs?
> 
> - OS X's native equivalent of cron is launchd, would you accept launchd 
> config files matching those of crontab.in for inclusion?


I am guessing the Mac OS X docs you refer to are the wiki page at
. If so, you can update that yourself.
See the first paragraph at  to obtain
write access to the wiki.

In any case, if there are other places that need updating, let me know.

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[Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Sean McBride writes:

 > I'm assuming that version number is just out-of-date?  Does mailman
 > work with modern postfix?

Yes and yes.  Beware the Debian mailman-to-postfix.py script,
however.  (There's a FAQ about it at http://wiki.list.org/FAQ
somewhere.)

 > - I'm doing this on OS X, and notice the docs for that OS are all
 >   *very* out of date.  Would you accept a patch to update the docs?

If you're working with Mailman 2, dubious.  There may never be another
release of Mailman 2 (but Mark is authoritative).  And Mac OS X has
been somewhat unkind to us (Apple's Mailman has been a long-term
source of support requests to which we mostly have to reply "uuuhhh
... install from source and we'll get back to you, Apple's Mailman is
*weird*".

Mailman 3 docs would be very welcome.

 > - OS X's native equivalent of cron is launchd, would you accept
 >   launchd config files matching those of crontab.in for inclusion?

I don't know if Mark will, but I will definitely ensure they get into
Mailman 3, or at least are well-documented (Barry makes the decisions
about code, but docs are always welcome).

Question for you: last I heard, the "launchctl load -w" approach was
deprecated by Apple, but there was no well-documented replacement.
Worse, there was no replacement that actually worked in my
experience. ;-)  Has that situation improved?

Note: Mailman likely has to work on at least Yosemite, possibly
Mavericks or even Mountain Lion.  Knowing Apple, even if there's a
working canonical incantation for the most recent El Capitan, likely
it hasn't been backported. :-(



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Re: [Mailman-Users] duplicate entry: "mail...@lists.example.org" in virtual-mailman.db

[Mark Sapiro]

On 04/13/2016 10:19 AM, Manuel Vögele wrote:
> 
> Indeed the virtual-mailman file generated by mailman contains multiple
> mail...@lists.example.org entries:
> 
>  file: virtual-mailman 
> 
...
> # We also add the site list address in each virtual domain as that address
> # is exposed on admin and listinfo overviews.
> # SITE ADDRESSES START
> mail...@lists.example.orgmailman
> # SITE ADDRESSES END
> 
> # STANZA START: mailman
> # CREATED: Wed Apr 13 16:33:48 2016
> mail...@lists.example.org  mailman@localhost
...
> 
> - end of file: virtual-mailman 
> 
> Why does that happen? Additionaly mailman didn't append @localhost to
> the alias in the site adresses block which causes postfix to append
> @example.org which leads to the invalid alias mail...@example.org.
> 
> I'm using Mailman version 2.1.21. This is my is my configuration:
> 
> 
> --- file: mm_cfg.py ---
> 
> from Defaults import *
> 
> DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.example.org'
> DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'lists.example.org'
> VIRTUAL_MAILMAN_LOCAL_DOMAIN = 'localhost'

The above is not necessary in 'usual' Postfix configurations. I.e., the
aliases file contains things like

mailman: "|/path/to/mailman/mail/mailman post mailman"

So that a virtual mapping

mail...@lists.example.orgmailman

says deliver mail originally To: mail...@lists.example.org to the local
address 'mailman' and the alias says how to deliver that.

Also, postmap is not complaining about the bare 'mailman' vs.
'mailman@localhost'. Even if that were generated as 'mailman@localhost',
postmap would still complain because there are two entries for
'mail...@lists.example.org'

> 
>  end of file: mm_cfg.py ---
> 
> What am I doing wrong?


Nothing really. You have just discovered two bugs. First, the appending
of VIRTUAL_MAILMAN_LOCAL_DOMAIN should also be applied in the SITE
ADDRESSES stanza, and the addition of the SITE ADDRESSES stanza doesn't
anticipate that the site list itself is in a virtual domain.

I'll fix these bugs. In the mean time, you can try two things.

Change the "Host name this list prefers for email." (host_name)
attribute on the 'mailman' list's web admin General Options page from
'lists.example.org' to just 'example.org' and also try removing the

VIRTUAL_MAILMAN_LOCAL_DOMAIN = 'localhost'

line from mm_cfg.py. Then run Mailman's bin/genaliases. The first change
will remove the 'mailman' list stanza from virtual-mailman and postmap
will stop complaining, and the second change will remove the (I think
unnecessary) @localhost appendages from all the local addresses. If it
turns out for some reason that @localhost is required, you can restore
that line to mm_cfg.py and run genaliases again.

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[Mailman-Users] My first time setting up mailman, some misc questions/comments

[Sean McBride]

Hi all,

I'm setting up mailman for the first time, and have a few questions/comments:

- the docs say "Mailman should work pretty much out of the box with a standard 
Postfix installation. It has been tested with various Postfix versions up to 
and including Postfix 2.1.5."  I'm assuming that version number is just 
out-of-date?  Does mailman work with modern postfix?

- I'm doing this on OS X, and notice the docs for that OS are all *very* out of 
date.  Would you accept a patch to update the docs?

- OS X's native equivalent of cron is launchd, would you accept launchd config 
files matching those of crontab.in for inclusion?

Thanks,

-- 

Sean McBride, B. Eng s...@rogue-research.com
Rogue Researchwww.rogue-research.com 
Mac Software Developer  Montréal, Québec, Canada


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[Mailman-Users] duplicate entry: "mail...@lists.example.org" in virtual-mailman.db

[Manuel Vögele]

Hi everyone.

I just set up a mailman installation and almost everything is working as
expected.

However everytime i create a new mailing list mailman prints the
following warning:

postmap: warning: /var/lib/mailman/data/virtual-mailman.db: duplicate
entry: "mail...@lists.example.org"

Indeed the virtual-mailman file generated by mailman contains multiple
mail...@lists.example.org entries:

 file: virtual-mailman 

# This file is generated by Mailman, and is kept in sync with the binary
hash
# file virtual-mailman.db.  YOU SHOULD NOT MANUALLY EDIT THIS FILE
unless you
# know what you're doing, and can keep the two files properly in sync.
If you
# screw it up, you're on your own.
#
# Note that you should already have this virtual domain set up properly in
# your Postfix installation.  See README.POSTFIX for details.

# LOOP ADDRESSES START
mailman-l...@lists.example.org   mailman-loop@localhost
# LOOP ADDRESSES END

# We also add the site list address in each virtual domain as that address
# is exposed on admin and listinfo overviews.
# SITE ADDRESSES START
mail...@lists.example.orgmailman
# SITE ADDRESSES END

# STANZA START: mailman
# CREATED: Wed Apr 13 16:33:48 2016
mail...@lists.example.org  mailman@localhost
mailman-ad...@lists.example.orgmailman-admin@localhost
mailman-boun...@lists.example.org  mailman-bounces@localhost
mailman-conf...@lists.example.org  mailman-confirm@localhost
mailman-j...@lists.example.org mailman-join@localhost
mailman-le...@lists.example.orgmailman-leave@localhost
mailman-ow...@lists.example.orgmailman-owner@localhost
mailman-requ...@lists.example.org  mailman-request@localhost
mailman-subscr...@lists.example.orgmailman-subscribe@localhost
mailman-unsubscr...@lists.example.org  mailman-unsubscribe@localhost
# STANZA END: mailman

- end of file: virtual-mailman 

Why does that happen? Additionaly mailman didn't append @localhost to
the alias in the site adresses block which causes postfix to append
@example.org which leads to the invalid alias mail...@example.org.

I'm using Mailman version 2.1.21. This is my is my configuration:


--- file: mm_cfg.py ---

from Defaults import *

DEFAULT_URL_HOST = 'lists.example.org'
DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST = 'lists.example.org'
VIRTUAL_MAILMAN_LOCAL_DOMAIN = 'localhost'

VIRTUAL_HOSTS.clear()
add_virtualhost(DEFAULT_URL_HOST, DEFAULT_EMAIL_HOST)

POSTFIX_STYLE_VIRTUAL_DOMAINS = ['lists.example.org']

DEFAULT_URL_PATTERN = 'http://%s/'
PUBLIC_ARCHIVE_URL = 'http://%(hostname)s/archives/%(listname)s'

MTA = 'Postfix'

 end of file: mm_cfg.py ---

What am I doing wrong?

Manuel
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Re: [Mailman-Users] DMARC bouncing of yahoo and hotmail users

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > There have been workarounds for this issue since 2.1.16, but they didn't
 > get serious until 2.1.18 and have seen continuous tweaking since
 > then.

In other words, Mark is too modest.  Get 2.1.latest (.20, I think?),
'cause Maintainer Markie kicks a--!

Technically, he's right, they're tweaks, but as a user experience life
is truly better.  If you need to upgrade, get the latest.

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