Re: [Mailman-Users] list sponsorships

[Chip Davis]

As Matt pointed out to me off-list, a lot of FOSS is provided for a 
profit.


I live about five miles from Red Hat, and teach Linux for a living. 
Perhaps I should have been more specific that "I have a 
philosophical/ethical problem with MY charging for simply providing a 
FOSS service."


While I would love to monetize the time I put into adminning the 
lists, it would be a pain to fairly calculate (or keep track of) it, 
so I consider it a mitzvah.


YMMV,

-Chip-

On 5/15/2017 5:17 PM, Richard Shetron wrote:

What I've always done is offered special pricing, usually at least 50%
off for charitable 503(c) and other 'public service' type groups.  It
more depended on the resources they required and the amount of hand
holding.

On 5/15/17 3:13 PM, Chip Davis wrote:

All of the Mailman lists I host/admin are provided free of charge,
as a value-add to the members of various non-profit groups.  Insofar
as the actual costs of providing a discussion or announcement list
are hard to tease out, the best I could do would be to apportion the
total costs of the servers they are on across all the other services
I get. The income would be nice to offset my expenses but
administering it would be nearly as great as that of adminning the
lists themselves. So I treat it as my contribution to good causes.

Also, I have a philosophical/ethical problem with charging for
simply providing a FOSS service.  I know it's allowed but still...

[snip]
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Re: [Mailman-Users] diagnosing messages missing from archives

[Mark Sapiro]

On 05/15/2017 01:41 PM, Matt Morgan wrote:
> 
> 
> It's a customized Slack (which I'm not familiar with in the first
> place). Init scripts are in /etc/rc.d and /etc/rc.d/rc.mailman has a line
> 
> PYTHON=/usr/bin/python
> 
> and I get
> 
> root@cool:/etc/rc.d# /usr/bin/python --version
> Python 2.7.5


What do you get when you invoke /usr/bin/python and then do

import string
string.lowercase

If that produces 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz', I suggest you try

sudo service mailman stop

and then after all the mailman processes are stopped (see
)

sudo service mailman start

and see if that helps.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] list sponsorships

[Richard Shetron]

What I've always done is offered special pricing, usually at least 50% 
off for charitable 503(c) and other 'public service' type groups.  It 
more depended on the resources they required and the amount of hand holding.


On 5/15/17 3:13 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
All of the Mailman lists I host/admin are provided free of charge, as a 
value-add to the members of various non-profit groups.  Insofar as the 
actual costs of providing a discussion or announcement list are hard to 
tease out, the best I could do would be to apportion the total costs of 
the servers they are on across all the other services I get. The income 
would be nice to offset my expenses but administering it would be nearly 
as great as that of adminning the lists themselves. So I treat it as my 
contribution to good causes.


Also, I have a philosophical/ethical problem with charging for simply 
providing a FOSS service.  I know it's allowed but still...

[snip]
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Re: [Mailman-Users] diagnosing messages missing from archives

[Matt Morgan]

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 1:57 PM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 05/11/2017 09:00 AM, Matt Morgan wrote:
> > On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 12:58 PM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:
> >>
> >> In Mailman's directory (/usr/local/mailman in your case)
> >>
> >> bin/show_qfiles qfiles/shunt/*
> >>
> >
> > Just FYI, in case anyone's reading this in the list archives in future,
> you
> > may need a "../" in front of "qfiles/shunt/*" there.
>
>
> Are you saying in your case Mailman's qfiles directory is
> /usr/local/qfiles? That seems unusual? Or did you do
>
> cd /usr/local/mailman/bin
> show_qfiles ../qfiles/shunt/*
>

You're right, sorry! I misread your instruction.


>
> ...
> >   File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Archiver/pipermail.py", line 63, in
> > fixAuthor
> > while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
> > UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xb5 in position 26:
> > ordinal
> > not in range(128)
>
>
> The full statement throwing the exception is
>
> while i>0 and (L[i-1][0] in lowercase or
>L[i-1].lower() in smallNameParts):
>
> lowercase is string.lowercase which from below appears to be all ascii.
> smallNameParts is defined in the module as a list of short ascii strings
>
> smallNameParts = ['van', 'von', 'der', 'de']
>
> That leaves L as the only possible source of non-ascii. L is a list of
> the 'words' in the From: display name, but at that point in the code, it
> should be unicode. I suppose this may be involved in the issue, but then
> what is the XX in the anonymized address below? Does it contain
> non-ascii?
>

in this example it is all regular letters. The list is a very international
so on the whole we would definitely be dealing with every possible alphabet
(but not this time).



>
>
> > Here is the output from the dumpdb command (anonymized a little):
> >
> ...
> > From: XX 
>
>
> ...
> >> What do you get if you invoke Python interactively on this server and do
> >>
> >> import string
> >> string.lowercase
> >>
> >> I get 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz'
> >>
> >
> > I get the same thing! Does that make any sense?
> >
> > @y:/usr/local/mailman/logs# python
> > Python 2.7.5 (default, May 29 2013, 02:28:51)
> > [GCC 4.8.0] on linux2
> > Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>  import string
>  string.lowercase
> > 'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz'
>
>
> I'm still leaning towards non-ascii in string.lowercase, because I think
> that's the only thing it could be and because the \xb5 is in 0-based
> position 26 which would be the caharacter after 'z'.
>
> Is Python 2.7.5 (default, May 29 2013, 02:28:51) the python that Mailman
> is using? Look at whatever script starts/stops/restarts Mailman and the
> Python it uses and do the above test in that Python.
>

It looks like it's 2.7.5 but this is an ancient server (it's been kept
alive and upgraded since at least 2009) I inherited and I'm never 100%
confident I know how it works.

It's a customized Slack (which I'm not familiar with in the first place).
Init scripts are in /etc/rc.d and /etc/rc.d/rc.mailman has a line

PYTHON=/usr/bin/python

and I get

root@cool:/etc/rc.d# /usr/bin/python --version
Python 2.7.5

Nothing in /usr/local/mailman/bin/mailmanctl seems to suggest it uses any
other python that what the init script uses? But again, not being a
Slack-jockey in the first place, if there's somewhere else to look I would
miss it.

Thanks again!
Matt
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Re: [Mailman-Users] list sponsorships

[Matt Morgan]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 4:14 PM, Steve Burling  wrote:

> On 15 May 2017, at 10:29, Matt Morgan wrote:
>
> Has anybody experimented with (or succeeded with) any form of mailman list
>> sponsorship? A nonprofit professional assocation I work for asked me for
>> advice about it. If there are current examples I'd be curious to see them.
>>
>
> If the nonprofit is a 503 (c), you can get free hosting from DreamHost,
> and host the mailing list on that host. Assuming you want to admin your own
> host, that is.
>
>
Interesting, thanks. In this case the hosting cost is a smaller piece of
the pie, but I'll look into that.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] list sponsorships

[Matt Morgan]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Chip Davis  wrote:

> All of the Mailman lists I host/admin are provided free of charge, as a
> value-add to the members of various non-profit groups.  Insofar as the
> actual costs of providing a discussion or announcement list are hard to
> tease out, the best I could do would be to apportion the total costs of the
> servers they are on across all the other services I get. The income would
> be nice to offset my expenses but administering it would be nearly as great
> as that of adminning the lists themselves. So I treat it as my contribution
> to good causes.
>
> Also, I have a philosophical/ethical problem with charging for simply
> providing a FOSS service.  I know it's allowed but still...
>
> -Chip-
>


This is not about charging for mailman service, but rather the value-add of
the community. I.e., it's a list for a professionals with ~10K subscribers.
The list used to be run out of a university that dropped support for it
several years ago. It was adopted by a nonprofit association, which pays
money to keep the list running. This is about offsetting the cost of
running the list, by allowing sponsorship by for profit members of the
community who benefit from it.

It's not unlike corporate support of FOSS, for example.


> On 5/15/2017 1:53 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
>
>> On 05/15/2017 07:29 AM, Matt Morgan wrote:
>>
>>> Has anybody experimented with (or succeeded with) any form of mailman
>>> list
>>> sponsorship? A nonprofit professional assocation I work for asked me for
>>> advice about it. If there are current examples I'd be curious to see
>>> them.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure if this is anything like what you have in mind, but if you
>> look at the bottom of any of the https://mail.python.org/mailman/* pages
>> (e.g. ) you will
>> see s DigitalOcean logo and a Hosted by DigitalOcean link. DigitalOcean
>> is in a sense a sponsor in that they provide the VPS that hosts
>> mail.python.org and we get a little bit of credit for click-throughs on
>> that link.
>>
>> --
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Re: [Mailman-Users] list sponsorships

[Matt Morgan]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 1:53 PM, Mark Sapiro  wrote:

> On 05/15/2017 07:29 AM, Matt Morgan wrote:
> > Has anybody experimented with (or succeeded with) any form of mailman
> list
> > sponsorship? A nonprofit professional assocation I work for asked me for
> > advice about it. If there are current examples I'd be curious to see
> them.
>
>
> I'm not sure if this is anything like what you have in mind, but if you
> look at the bottom of any of the https://mail.python.org/mailman/* pages
> (e.g. ) you will
> see s DigitalOcean logo and a Hosted by DigitalOcean link. DigitalOcean
> is in a sense a sponsor in that they provide the VPS that hosts
> mail.python.org and we get a little bit of credit for click-throughs on
> that link.
>

Yes, that's a great example, thanks!. I'd also love to see examples of a
sponsor message that's in the email messages (headers, footers,
digests)--or, I know there are lots of good reasons not to do that, too, so
it others considered it and ruled it out, it would be interesting to hear
how that transpired.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] list sponsorships

[Steve Burling]

On 15 May 2017, at 10:29, Matt Morgan wrote:

Has anybody experimented with (or succeeded with) any form of mailman 
list
sponsorship? A nonprofit professional assocation I work for asked me 
for
advice about it. If there are current examples I'd be curious to see 
them.


If the nonprofit is a 503 (c), you can get free hosting from DreamHost, 
and host the mailing list on that host. Assuming you want to admin your 
own host, that is.


-- Steve
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Re: [Mailman-Users] list sponsorships

[Chip Davis]

All of the Mailman lists I host/admin are provided free of charge, as 
a value-add to the members of various non-profit groups.  Insofar as 
the actual costs of providing a discussion or announcement list are 
hard to tease out, the best I could do would be to apportion the total 
costs of the servers they are on across all the other services I get. 
The income would be nice to offset my expenses but administering it 
would be nearly as great as that of adminning the lists themselves. 
So I treat it as my contribution to good causes.


Also, I have a philosophical/ethical problem with charging for simply 
providing a FOSS service.  I know it's allowed but still...


-Chip-

On 5/15/2017 1:53 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On 05/15/2017 07:29 AM, Matt Morgan wrote:

Has anybody experimented with (or succeeded with) any form of mailman list
sponsorship? A nonprofit professional assocation I work for asked me for
advice about it. If there are current examples I'd be curious to see them.



I'm not sure if this is anything like what you have in mind, but if you
look at the bottom of any of the https://mail.python.org/mailman/* pages
(e.g. ) you will
see s DigitalOcean logo and a Hosted by DigitalOcean link. DigitalOcean
is in a sense a sponsor in that they provide the VPS that hosts
mail.python.org and we get a little bit of credit for click-throughs on
that link.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] list sponsorships

[Mark Sapiro]

On 05/15/2017 07:29 AM, Matt Morgan wrote:
> Has anybody experimented with (or succeeded with) any form of mailman list
> sponsorship? A nonprofit professional assocation I work for asked me for
> advice about it. If there are current examples I'd be curious to see them.


I'm not sure if this is anything like what you have in mind, but if you
look at the bottom of any of the https://mail.python.org/mailman/* pages
(e.g. ) you will
see s DigitalOcean logo and a Hosted by DigitalOcean link. DigitalOcean
is in a sense a sponsor in that they provide the VPS that hosts
mail.python.org and we get a little bit of credit for click-throughs on
that link.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] list sponsorships

[Matt Morgan]

Has anybody experimented with (or succeeded with) any form of mailman list
sponsorship? A nonprofit professional assocation I work for asked me for
advice about it. If there are current examples I'd be curious to see them.

Thanks,
Matt
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