Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman and (really) large lists

2006-11-25 Thread Jack Stone
As one stat, one of my lists of 10,000 is usually completed within 24 mins. I 
usually drop all filter scans during that time, plus I use 20 separate mail 
queues (sendmail) so too many don't pile up in a single queue and has to start 
over delaying send-outs. These 2 things have affected my speed more than 
anything else -- except maybe a custom footer which I avoid using.
  

Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  At 8:39 AM +0100 11/24/06, Mathias Andre wrote:

 In parallel of this migration we have been ask to set up a very large
 mailing list: between 15000 to 25000 users. This would be a moderated
 list (actually more like some kind of newsletter).

 I was wondering how well would mailman cope with such a large list.

Check the FAQ. 15,000-25,000 is only a moderately large mailing 
list, as far as Mailman is concerned.

 Has any of you done anything similar?

Check the FAQ. There's lots of good stuff there.

-- 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] I sent out a mailing, how can I know it's done or not?

2006-11-25 Thread Jack Stone
I usually look in ~mailman/qfiles/out and when I see 0, that's good enough 
for me, although I know there may be some stragglers in the MTA mail queues. 
But, MM is through with its part.

Ralf Hildebrandt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  * Stanley Chen :

 We have a list running 100,000+ email addresses, and we broadcasted a
 message. How can we find out if all messages are successfully sent, or
 still in queue? If still in queue, how many message left to be sent?

Look into the queue of your MTA
Usually the mailq does the trick (sendmail, postfix)

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[Mailman-Users] Alternate SMTP setup

2006-09-11 Thread Jack Stone
In an effort to further tuneup/speedup the list deliveries (being choked again 
today), I have used the method below about an alternate smtp for mailman's use. 
However, I have yet to see any packets go through port 1313.
   
  My posting lists are not huge, each under 1000.
   
  Sockstats shows that port is assigned to 127.0.0.1 okay, and the processes 
show the added instance of sendmail running okay. What did I miss?
   
  Here is my setup im mm_cfg.py:
  # Tuning stuff
SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 10
QRUNNER_LOCK_LIFETIME = hours(20)
QRUNNER_PROCESS_LIFETIME = hours(2)
QRUNNER_MAX_MESSAGES = 5
  # define alternate SMTP port
SMTPPORT = 1313
   
  Running MM-2.8x/FBSD-6.1/Sendmail-8.13.6

/usr/sbin/sendmail -bd -ODeliveryMode=defer \ 
-ODaemonPortOptions=Name=MSA,Port=,M=E,Addr=127.0.0.1  

Where  is some port number not otherwise used (you can test   if 
something's in use by doing telnet localhost  -- if it's  refused, 
there's no daemon listening)  

This sets up a sendmail process listening to the alternate port,   in 
DEFER mode, but set to talk only to the localhost interface,   so it's not 
accessible by anyoneother than your local machine:   no open relay 
problems.  

To make mailman access that port, add this to your mm_cfg.py:  

# define alternate SMTP port  SMTPPORT = 1313


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Alternate SMTP setup

2006-09-11 Thread Jack Stone
Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:At 9:12 AM -0700 2006-09-11, Jack 
Stone wrote:

 In an effort to further tuneup/speedup the list deliveries (being choked
 again today), I have used the method below about an alternate smtp for
 mailman's use. However, I have yet to see any packets go through port 1313.

What is in the logs? Did you stop and restart Mailman? Did you make 
sure that all anti-virus/anti-spam processing is turned off in this 
second MTA instance? Did you also make sure that they turn off all 
reverse DNS checks?

This technique has been in wide use, so without more information on 
what errors are showing up on your side, it's impossible to tell what 
may have happened.

  JLS 
  1) Yes, restarted Mailman
  2) anti-spam - Trusted networks are ignored in/out -- not sure about ClamAV, 
but will look.
  3) Have caching DNS on this server
  4) Have been looking at all logs for errors - none found, except the firewall 
logs show no packets -- ipsumdump -- no packets to port 1313
   
  Did all of the above before posting for help. Also, looked at the FAQ several 
times.
   
  Further, have been searching for ways to add more subdir for the mail/spool 
-- not luck there so far in my search at sendmail, etc.
   
  Still see 10 x.pck's in the ~mailman/qfiles/out
   
  The ones older than 3 hours finally gone, but some still an hour old.
   
  BTW: Another thing is that in the FAQ I see a long analysis about setting 
SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 10 to SMTP_MAX_RCPTS = 5 max.
   
  I'm using 10, but do have numerous big gorillas like Yahoo, Hotmail, msn, 
aol, etc. -- a high ratio of those.


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[Mailman-Users] Running large announce list forums

2006-09-06 Thread Jack Stone
Folks:
  Being a nuB to Mailman (but old hand with majordomo), I have noted that if a 
message is being processed out to one of the large customer announcement lists 
(10,000+) that it seems the separate discussion lists' deliveries slow down 
substanially -- from minutes to hours! One member report 18 hours from post to 
receipt.
   
  I've read most of the tuning methods, but have not seen anything that might 
be best for this, except I *think* I have noticed a speedup if I don't use 
personalized stuff, like on the footers. I know it switches from processing 
individual messages to batches. Just wonder if that really is the main culprit.
   
  The hours mentioned above occurred when using personalized footers. The 
announcement lists still slow down things.
   
  I use sendmail on FBSD-6.x and latest Mailman 2.8x
   
  Just wondered what others have done with this type issue. I have read most of 
the slow message archives.
   
  PS: I have found that if I move a copy of any needed global templates to
  ../lists/somelist/en
  and that modified version will be used, which is great for customizing.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem

2006-09-05 Thread Jack Stone
Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:At 7:06 PM -0700 2006-09-04, Jack 
Stone wrote:

 I looked at FAQ 4.4 and the method described there using an external
 archiving tool like MHonArc with Mailman methinks is a monster [...]

It's not as clean as we would like, no. That is an area we are 
hoping to improve upon for future releases.
   
  JLS Needless for me to say, Mailman is a great system and everything cannot 
be done at once. Actually, I have found Mailman a lot easier to *install* than 
majordomo. MM worked right out of the box, but MJD can be a pain about 
permissions and configuring as matured as it is. I helped work up a separate 
installer script (including for vhosts) that made it much more of a breeze.

 [...] compared
 to my manner of cron-run scripts that updates my custom archives every
 15 minutes to display the added messages. My need for a fix was minor
 IF I had just know where to look.

Therein lies the key. I'm not sure what documentation you have or 
have not read, and which FAQ entries you have or have not seen, but 
the documentation should have made reference to the mm_cfg.py file 
and the fact that you should look through the Defaults.py file to see 
what options you may want to change, etc

If you can tell us what parts of the documentation are not clear, we 
will try to get those fixed.
   
  JLS Actually, because of the time crunch, I just hadn't had time to read 
everything although I did quickly scan the FAQ and thoroughly man pages. I 
tested of course on a test list until I thought I had everything working to 
move over to a production list. My main concern was not to interupt the list.
   
  The knob in the web site configs about changing from YES to NO had me 
distracted thinking it was the place to change my setting for this preference. 
I can tell from Dan's last post, he is also still confused about what that does 
there. That web knob caused me to be distracted from looking more thoroughly in 
other places -- like the Defaults.py -- even though I had looked at some things 
there -- but just for other things at the time -- like the vhost designation -- 
which I fixed by using the CLI newlist command.
   
  Basically, I had to discover which things were better to use the CLI or the 
web configs. In my experience, I found to create the newlist from CLI and then 
go to the net list's web site and configure things -- except of course, the 
archive issue on obscuring. It's real purpose is still a mystery to me as I 
didn't observe any change on anything bu switching from YES to NO.

 Next, I'm just looking for a knob to drop the display of the archives
 in Mailman's web site and have members continue to use only the one they
 have been used to for several years -- and is not available for email
 harvesting.

I'm not clear on what you're asking for. Could you elaborate?
   
  JLS Now that I have successfully changed the obscuring to non-obscuring, 
the Mailman archive now shows the email addresses which would be available to 
any spammer that took the time to join -- my site is especially at risk now 
that I even ID'ed the domain during this thread. My fault in doing that. It 
would be a simple matter for a spammer to download the compressed archives and 
then run them through an email extraction script. As I opined before, even the 
obsured used now in Mailman archives would not be safe if a spammer used a 
special script of the downloaded archive files to convert the xyz at 
adomain.net I couldn't do it, but a good script guy could, I imagine.
   
  So, I just need to disable access to the Mailman version of the archive which 
I consider vulnerable to harvesting in its present form. Plus, I don't need it 
with my own archives available and they are safe.

 I still want to keep generating the mylist.txt because my
 scripts use that monthly file. Just don't want it to appear anywhere to
 the members or one that would join to mis-use it for spam lists.

If you search the FAQ for archive, you might find some relevant information.
   
  JLS Plan to do more of that now I have time.

 Would be nicer, it seems if Mailman Xed out the email addresses as
 well rather than the present obscuring.

That's another area of improvement that we have planned for future versions.

  JLS Just makes a great product all the better!! Keep up the good work and 
many thanks for the help on my one important issue here. Didn't realize this 
hadn't come up before.
  
As I said before, I have watched MM mature for several years and even installed 
it once a couple of years ago (2 or 3) -- but didn't think it was ready until 
now. Many things have been fixed.improved since then.
   
  BTW: One other thing  not meaning to be nit picky, but are you aware that 
FBSD ports show this program as containing numerous vulnerabilities?
   
  Here's what the portaudit sez, just FYI:
  Affected package: mailman-2.1.8_3
Type of problem: mailman -- Multiple Vulnerabilities.
Reference: 
http://www.FreeBSD.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem

2006-09-04 Thread Jack Stone


Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:At 6:06 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack 
Stone wrote:

 I run a separate searchable archive where the whole address is munged
 with s, but now without the @ regular format, the address is
 more exposed than before.

The archives are basically flat HTML files that are generated by 
Mailman when messages come in, or by periodic cron jobs. Since 
they're flat HTML files, if you make a change like this you will need 
to go back and re-generate all the affected archives in order to make 
the change visible everywhere. Did you do that?

-- 
Brad Knowles, 



Brad: I did what you advised but mailman does not adjust to the new setting of 
NO to not Obscure. Yes, I have regenerated the archives -- the ones that belong 
to mailman of course.
   
  I cannot modify the post-prosessing script because I use the program 
Mhonarc to generate the searchable version of my archives since Mailman does 
not include that feature. It has the nice feature of truly obscuring 
(completely) the email addresses much better than just
  amember at somewh.ere However, Mhonarc needs the regular email address to see 
it and convert to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   
  Those wishing to harvest emails can certainly run a script to put the Mailman 
Obsured method back to a full email -- I cannot tho.
   
  Is the obscure a buggy feature or do you have any other suggestions. I 
haven't seen any other answers in my search.
   
  I have watched Mailman mature for years before switching from majordomo. The 
only aspect keeping me from doing it was the messy archives that could not set 
the right dates of the message and showed dates far into the future.
   
  Too messy for a list with scientists, academics, engineers and the like who 
would be very picky about that.
   
  Please one more attempt to explain to me what to do  I'll go away -- happy 
as a clam if I get the right answer from anyone -- unless I'm the only one on 
this list with this problem.
   
  Thanks for tolerating me on this important issue (for us).
   
  See the tech mag that uses the list:
  http://www.antennex.com
   
  I am the publisher, but a mediocre Sys Adm.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem

2006-09-04 Thread Jack Stone


Karl Zander [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:On Mon, 4 Sep 2006 07:04:37 -0700 
(PDT)
Jack Stone wrote:
 

 
 I cannot modify the post-prosessing script because I 
use the program Mhonarc to generate the searchable 
version of my archives since Mailman does not include 
that feature. It has the nice feature of truly obscuring 
(completely) the email addresses much better than just
 amember at somewh.ere However, Mhonarc needs the 
regular email address to see it and convert to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

[snip]


 Please one more attempt to explain to me what to do  
I'll go away -- happy as a clam if I get the right 
answer from anyone -- unless I'm the only one on this 
list with this problem.


I think what you are asking is specific to MHonArc. 
Mailman only calls MHonArc as an external archiver and 
then Mailman assumes that external archiver knows what it 
is doing.

I believe what you are looking for is called SPAMMODE in 
MHonArc.

SPAMMODE determines if MHonArc will perform actions to 
deter spam address harvesters. If SPAMMODE is true, it 
changes the default values of various resources that 
display email addresses.

I don't know the specifics of enabling this in MHonArc as 
I have just started looking at this myself. You will want 
to take a look at the MHonArc site for specifics, 
www.mhonarc.org

--Karl
   
  Karl, you missed the point. Sorry I'm just not being clear enough. I do not 
have Mailman calling MhonArc. I just want Mailman to do want it is told to do 
first and all would be fine. I do use SPAMMODE on MHonArc to obtain the 
es to obliterate the email addresses AFTER Mailman has generated the 
archives. Mailman doe not depend on MHonArch, but MHonArch's SPAMMODE depends 
on the output files of Mailman. I cannot get the Mailman knob to NOT Obscure to 
do that. It just keeps obscuring no matter what I do.
   
  If I run MHonArc on the Mailman mylist.mbox, which contains the email 
addresses in full, then it works. Alas tho, the archive mylist.mbox doesn't 
split the months as does the mylist-month.txt So, I switched over to using 
the txt archive to feed MHonArc and then discovered the new problem of the 
Mailman's method of obscuring the addresses which now defeats MHonArch. I am 
very familiar with use of MHonArch.
   
  Any other thoughts???




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Re: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem

2006-09-04 Thread Jack Stone


Dan Phillips [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sep 4, 2006, at 12:50 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
 The Mailman method of obscuring addresses has always worked as
 described, in all installations I have ever encountered or heard of.

Remember, what he's trying to do is to get pipermail NOT to obscure 
the addresses. This is completely unrelated to how the resulting 
files are used or what further processing is done on them.

Dan: THANK YOU so much for going to the trouble of reproducing the problem! I 
thought I was losing my mind or encapable of explaining the problem.
   
  If it is a bug, hope the maintainer is listening to include a fix in the 
upcoming new version.???


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem

2006-09-04 Thread Jack Stone
Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 2:06 PM -0500 2006-09-04, Dan 
Phillips wrote:

 Remember, what he's trying to do is to get pipermail NOT to obscure
 the addresses. This is completely unrelated to how the resulting
 files are used or what further processing is done on them.

  
--
I understand. The problem is that the standard method of using a 
third-party archive solution should eliminate Pipermail from the 
picture altogether, and instead replace it with the third-party 
alternative. I have never before heard of anyone taking the output 
from Pipermail and then putting that into a third-party archive tool 
-- that would be like taking the output from sendmail and then piping 
that through postfix, and clearly redundant.

I think maybe the OP may want to review the recommended method of 
using an external archiving tool like MHonArc with Mailman, such as 
described in FAQ 4.4.
Brad Knowles,
  
--
   
  Considering I have only switched from majordomo (used since 1997) on several 
lists a week+ ago, I just had not found all of the knobs yet -- nor did I even 
know what knobs I would need to twist yet to provide the archives needed. All 
other things are running great and I'm glad I made the switch finally.
   
  Adding ARCHIVER_OBSCURES_EMAILADDRS = No
  to mm_cfg.py did the trick and now have the solution.
   
  I looked at FAQ 4.4 and the method described there using an external 
archiving tool like MHonArc with Mailman methinks is a monster compared to my 
manner of cron-run scripts that updates my custom archives every 15 minutes to 
display the added messages. My need for a fix was minor IF I had just know 
where to look.
   
  Next, I'm just looking for a knob to drop the display of the archives in 
Mailman's web site and have members continue to use only the one they have been 
used to for several years -- and is not available for email harvesting. I still 
want to keep generating the mylist.txt because my scripts use that monthly 
file. Just don't want it to appear anywhere to the members or one that would 
join to mis-use it for spam lists.
   
  Would be nicer, it seems if Mailman Xed out the email addresses as well 
rather than the present obscuring. I can imagine it would be little effort 
for spammers to download the Mailman archives and then run a script to return 
the emails from xyz at adomain.com right back to [EMAIL PROTECTED] All the 
info is there gieving a false sense of security. [EMAIL PROTECTED] seems a lot 
safer to me.

  Anyway, truly appreciate the help from you Brad and especially Dan who 
understood my issue.
   
  I'll spend more time in the Defaults.py looking at more knobs there.
  



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[Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem

2006-09-03 Thread Jack Stone
In the admin, I set the the obscure address to NO, but addresses are still 
shown as:
   
  amember at somewhere.com
   
  Setting from YES to NO had no effect. Radio button NO is still set.
   
  I run a separate searchable archive where the whole address is munged with 
s, but now without the @ regular format, the address is more exposed 
than before.
   
  Anyone else have this issue -- or solution?
   
  Thanks!


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem

2006-09-03 Thread Jack Stone
Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:At 6:06 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack 
Stone wrote:

 I run a separate searchable archive where the whole address is munged
 with s, but now without the @ regular format, the address is
 more exposed than before.

The archives are basically flat HTML files that are generated by 
Mailman when messages come in, or by periodic cron jobs. Since 
they're flat HTML files, if you make a change like this you will need 
to go back and re-generate all the affected archives in order to make 
the change visible everywhere. Did you do that?

-- 
Brad Knowles, 


I just switched my mail list management from majordom to mailman within the 
past week. All of my archives prior to the day of the switch are xed out.
   
  I'm not concerned about the few that mailman obscured, just wanted the normal 
address to appear on each message in the new archive files by mailman.
   
  My archiving program takes the mailman archive files (after the fact) and 
prepares the archives with any and all email addresses that appear in mailman's 
mbox or flat text archive files and generates the archives I have over 10,000 
messages with the email obscured as:
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] to:
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   
  whereas, mailman does this:
  amember at somewhere.com
   
  My old method of obscuring is much more obscured.
   
  So, why doesn't the change from YES to NO on the obscure not work?? That's 
all I need so the messages arrive in the mailman archive files with a whole 
original email address format.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem

2006-09-03 Thread Jack Stone
Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:At 11:36 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack 
Stone wrote:

 So, why doesn't the change from YES to NO on the obscure not work??

Because you still need to regenerate the archives, which you 
apparently did not do.

IMO, better yet would to modify your post-processing script so that 
it understands both address formats, so that it doesn't matter how 
this particular option is set.

-- 
Brad Knowles, 



  Brad: Sorry I'm so thick-headed, but didn't realize it wouldn'l just start 
feeding the archives with the new setting. So, I need to regenerate the 
archives for the setting to take effect as you have twice said.
   
  Since I'm just learning mailman, what would my line command  flags be to do 
that.
   
  Or, your second suggestion: ...to modify your post-processing script , 
how would I modify the post-processing script -- so I don't screw it up?
   
  Thanks for your support on this one.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem

2006-09-03 Thread Jack Stone


Jack Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Brad Knowles 
wrote: At 11:36 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack Stone wrote:

IMO, better yet would to modify your post-processing script so that 
it understands both address formats, so that it doesn't matter how 
this particular option is set.

-- 
Brad Knowles, 

Sorry, I found how to regenerate the archives in the FAQ search.
   
  But, haven't found this one yet:
  Or, your second suggestion: ...to modify your post-processing script , 
how would I modify the post-processing script -- so I don't screw it up?

Thanks for your support on this one.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Obscure addresses problem

2006-09-03 Thread Jack Stone


Jack Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Jack Stone wrote: Brad Knowles 
wrote: At 11:36 AM -0700 2006-09-03, Jack Stone wrote:

Did the regen of the archives and NADA  Just the same email format presented by 
mailman archives:
  amember at somewhere.com
   
  Now what.
   
  On the second suggestion:
  I'm a bit off wave today -- you meant modify MY script. I'd rather mailman do 
what it says when the knobs are reset.


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