Re: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists

[Lindsay Haisley]

On Mon, 2018-10-08 at 12:23 -0400, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users
wrote:
> On Mon, 2018-10-08 at 11:01 -0500, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > I've generally had good luck with Linode. Their tech folks are real
> > geniuses and technically their service really rock. 
> Next time you're on one of their nodes do this:
> 
> egrep "(MHz|model name)" /proc/cpuinfo
> 
> For less $$ you can get newer/faster hardware elsewhere (and some
> even
> come with pure SSD RAID10 storage)  All I'm saying is that it pays to
> shop around.
> 
> model name: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1240 v6 @ 3.70GHz
> cpu MHz   : 3695.998
> model name: Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1240 v6 @ 3.70GHz
> cpu MHz   : 3695.998

My linode has a quad:

model name  : Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E5-2680 v2 @ 2.80GHz
cpu MHz : 2800.000

Not as fast, but speed isn't everything, and the speed is quite
adequate for my small email and web hosting business. I _did_ shop
around, and when I settled on Linode back in 2014 it was recommended by
people in the IT business whom I trust. As I said, I've been quite
impressed with their technical skills and the quality of their support.

On top of that, I'm using their DNS services for probably 90 domain
names (with programming for several facilities in place which leverages
their DNS API), and have an IPv6 /56 assigned to me from them, routed
through a VPN to our SOHO LAN. On top of that, my wife and I are up
against some major medical issues which are occupying all of our
available time which I'm NOT spending on trying to keep FMP's
customers' mail service open to the full Internet. Switching virtual
server providers at this point is NOT an option. I'm 77, _should_ be
retired, and am stressed to the breaking point with dealing with all
the crap coming down the pike at us. Thanks for your comment, though.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley   | "The first casualty when
FMP Computer Services | war comes is truth."
512-259-1190  |
http://www.fmp.com| -- Hiram W Johnson


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists

[Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users]

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Hash: SHA512

On Mon, 2018-10-08 at 11:01 -0500, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> 
> I've generally had good luck with Linode. Their tech folks are real
> geniuses and technically their service really rock. 

Next time you're on one of their nodes do this:

egrep "(MHz|model name)" /proc/cpuinfo

For less $$ you can get newer/faster hardware elsewhere (and some even
come with pure SSD RAID10 storage)  All I'm saying is that it pays to
shop around.

model name  : Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1240 v6 @ 3.70GHz
cpu MHz : 3695.998
model name  : Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1240 v6 @ 3.70GHz
cpu MHz : 3695.998


model name  : Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1240 V2 @ 3.40GHz
cpu MHz : 3400.022
model name  : Intel(R) Xeon(R) CPU E3-1240 V2 @ 3.40GHz
cpu MHz : 3400.022


- -Jim P.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists

[Lindsay Haisley]

On Mon, 2018-10-08 at 03:57 -0400, Jayson Smith wrote:
> I've learned this lesson the hard way. Back in early 2011 I signed up 
> with a company called Serverpronto where I could get my own dedicated 
> server. Their terms of service were very clear on the fact that they 
> have a zero-tolerance policy when it comes to spammers, and all the 
> horrible things they would do to you if you even thought about getting 
> any of their network on any Email blacklists. Well I signed up, moved 
> lists over, and five days later I started getting bounces left and right 
> because my IP was on blacklists. I assume it wasn't my specific IP but 
> an IP range. I contacted support, and they did…absolutely nothing about 
> it! They weren't willing to investigate, they weren't willing to contact 
> the blacklists on my behalf since "they never respond," etc. I ended up 
> leaving them and switching to Linode. They've since merged with another 
> outfit I think, but unless they've straightened their act up big time, I 
> wouldn't recommend them to anyone!

I've generally had good luck with Linode. Their tech folks are real
geniuses and technically their service really rock. Their tech support
staff is very responsive and helpful, well above and beyond what I
might expect. I run my own mail server, know and understand the basics
of email which I learned back in the 90s working for one of Austin's
first ISPs.

One of the things I offer for customers is hands-off customer-
configured redirection of email. If customer John Doe has a domain
mydomain.com he can set up redirection so that email to 
j...@mydomain.com redirects to, say, john@gmail.com. This is a
feature of the Courier MTA which is _very_ useful, and is also
leveraged to redirect mail into Mailman mailing lists. Unfortunately,
if j...@mydomain.com gets harvested for spamming, then my server is
burdened with filtering out spam to this address, and a certain amount
gets through. I've written many of my own spam filtering routines,
DMARC mitigation, etc. (i.e. courier-to-mailman.py in Mailman's contrib
collection), but some slips through anyway, and it appears to come from
MY server, if one only looks at the topmost Received header. I've had
problems with public RBL blockages from time to time, and with Gmail,
but I try to stay on top of it and get these resolved as they come up.
Microsoft says they've "mitigated" this situation, but it'll take until
tomorrow night before my server may be fully able to send email to
addresses at hotmail.com, msn.com, outlook.com and live.com.

Meanwhile I have customers, including a county political party, for
whom email redirection is an absolutely vital on a daily basis to their
functioning and I'm going to have to tell them to take their business
elsewhere ASAP, and I may have to discontinue redirection as a service
offering. This is going to cost me a lot of good will and income.

> Just goes to show, the terms of service can be all "We hate spammers 
> just as much as you do, and if we find out you're a spammer we'll do 
> unspeakable things," but it might not mean a thing.

Yep. I am amazed that email, as implemented through RFC 822 and other
early protocols, still survives and hasn't gone the way of UseNet News,
UUCP Mail, Gopher and Archie. It's probably the most stressed service
on the Internet what with c.a. 90% of email being UCE, and there are so
many misbegotten attempts out there to deal with the problem in ways
that break email on the Internet, often violation of RFCs. It's a
tribute to the engineering genius of the internet pioneers who
developed the email protocols that it survives at all and hasn't been
replaced entirely with proprietary services such as Facebook Messenger.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley   | "The first casualty when
FMP Computer Services | war comes is truth."
512-259-1190  |
http://www.fmp.com| -- Hiram W Johnson


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists

[Jayson Smith]

Hi,

I've learned this lesson the hard way. Back in early 2011 I signed up 
with a company called Serverpronto where I could get my own dedicated 
server. Their terms of service were very clear on the fact that they 
have a zero-tolerance policy when it comes to spammers, and all the 
horrible things they would do to you if you even thought about getting 
any of their network on any Email blacklists. Well I signed up, moved 
lists over, and five days later I started getting bounces left and right 
because my IP was on blacklists. I assume it wasn't my specific IP but 
an IP range. I contacted support, and they did…absolutely nothing about 
it! They weren't willing to investigate, they weren't willing to contact 
the blacklists on my behalf since "they never respond," etc. I ended up 
leaving them and switching to Linode. They've since merged with another 
outfit I think, but unless they've straightened their act up big time, I 
wouldn't recommend them to anyone!


Just goes to show, the terms of service can be all "We hate spammers 
just as much as you do, and if we find out you're a spammer we'll do 
unspeakable things," but it might not mean a thing.


Jayson

On 10/7/2018 4:25 PM, Mike Starr wrote:

On 10/7/2018 1:25 PM, John Levine wrote:

It may well not be you.  Linode does a poor job of keeping their
network clean of spammers and other miscreants.  They always kick them
off when you report it, but by then it's too late, so their whole
network has an iffy reputation.

Linode's hosting is nothing special, either in features or price.  You
might consider moving your system somewhere else that manages their
network better.
And there's the problem... you can switch hosts but not know if they 
manager their network better until you know they don't because your 
email gets blocked. Like they say in the pool hall, poke and hope. 
Unless there's some way to shop for a hosting company on the basis of 
their "network reputation." As far as hosting companies go, like the 
rotisserie ad said, I just want to set it and forget it.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists

[Mike Starr]

On 10/7/2018 1:25 PM, John Levine wrote:

It may well not be you.  Linode does a poor job of keeping their
network clean of spammers and other miscreants.  They always kick them
off when you report it, but by then it's too late, so their whole
network has an iffy reputation.

Linode's hosting is nothing special, either in features or price.  You
might consider moving your system somewhere else that manages their
network better.
And there's the problem... you can switch hosts but not know if they 
manager their network better until you know they don't because your 
email gets blocked. Like they say in the pool hall, poke and hope. 
Unless there's some way to shop for a hosting company on the basis of 
their "network reputation." As far as hosting companies go, like the 
rotisserie ad said, I just want to set it and forget it.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists

[Lindsay Haisley]

On Sun, 2018-10-07 at 14:25 -0400, John Levine wrote:
> In article  you write:
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Unfortunately, yes, I have seen this behavior from Microsoft. I have no 
> > idea what triggers it, but my Linode IP has been blocklisted twice, once 
> > a bit over three years ago, and another time less than two weeks ago.
> It may well not be you.  Linode does a poor job of keeping their
> network clean of spammers and other miscreants.

I've had a _few_ spam spews here which came from Linode IPs, but very
few. Other IP blocks in Brazil, Poland, Italy, DigitalOcean, etc.
harbor many more.

> They always kick them
> off when you report it, but by then it's too late, so their whole
> network has an iffy reputation.

Be that as it may, the support folks at Linode are exceptional, and go
the extra mile for me on any problems or questions I may have, whether
it's their issues are someone else's. 

> Linode's hosting is nothing special, either in features or price.  You
> might consider moving your system somewhere else that manages their
> network better.

I've got a lot of sweat equity into programming against their DNS API,
and have an IPv6 /56 subnet from them which provides v6 addresses to
our SOHO LAN. I have too much on my plate to make a major move,
including 80 or so domain names on their DNS.

The Linode support folks went to bat on this particular issue and filed
a delisting request with Microsoft on my address, or the /24 containing
it. I've done the same from my end.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley   | "The first casualty when
FMP Computer Services | war comes is truth."
512-259-1190  |
http://www.fmp.com| -- Hiram W Johnson


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists

[Lindsay Haisley]

On Sun, 2018-10-07 at 12:19 -0500, Robert Braver wrote:
> This is almost certainly not going to have anything to do with
> Mailman, but more to do with the reputation of the IP address of your
> virtual server at Linode or IP netblock ("neighborhood") you are
> sending from.

Understood. I had thought that perhaps others on this list had had
similar problems and I could get a bit of a handle on the lay of the
land with MS from others. This is indeed the case.

> If you Google around for the error you reported, you should be able to
> find a form to request de-listing. Perhaps they will while-list your
> server's IP address even if they are not thrilled with the overall
> experience with emails from Linode address space.

I got good responses here from Mark Sapiro and Stephen Turnbull with
concrete suggestions on resolving the problem. Unfortunately, Microsoft
has informed me that my IP address "does not qualify for mitigation",
so I've asked for more details.

It looks as if I may need to unload all my Mailman list hosting clients
and send them to a commercial service such as MailChimp.

-- 
Lindsay Haisley   | "The first casualty when
FMP Computer Services | war comes is truth."
512-259-1190  |
http://www.fmp.com| -- Hiram W Johnson


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists

[Robert Braver]

On Sunday, October 7, 2018, 11:28:28 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

LH> FMP's mail and web server is a virtual server at Linode. We run half a
LH> dozen Mailman lists or so, all opt-in lists for a couple of non-profits
LH> and small business customers, all of which have been running
LH> successfully for many months. Today I got a large number of
LH> unsubscription notices from one of our lists, all of them for addresses
LH> at hotmail.com, msn.com and outlook.com. They contain the following
LH> text:

[...]

LH> Has anyone seen similar problems recently with Microsoft mail customers
LH> who are Mailman list subscribers?

No problems here with the two lists I run, although I'm not a stranger
to problems with blocklists or list users inadvertently reporting list
messages as spam.

This is almost certainly not going to have anything to do with
Mailman, but more to do with the reputation of the IP address of your
virtual server at Linode or IP netblock ("neighborhood") you are
sending from.

If you Google around for the error you reported, you should be able to
find a form to request de-listing. Perhaps they will while-list your
server's IP address even if they are not thrilled with the overall
experience with emails from Linode address space.



-- 
Best regards,
 Robert Braver
 rbra...@ohww.norman.ok.us

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists

[John Levine]

In article  you write:
>Hi,
>
>Unfortunately, yes, I have seen this behavior from Microsoft. I have no 
>idea what triggers it, but my Linode IP has been blocklisted twice, once 
>a bit over three years ago, and another time less than two weeks ago.

It may well not be you.  Linode does a poor job of keeping their
network clean of spammers and other miscreants.  They always kick them
off when you report it, but by then it's too late, so their whole
network has an iffy reputation.

Linode's hosting is nothing special, either in features or price.  You
might consider moving your system somewhere else that manages their
network better.

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[Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Lindsay Haisley writes:

 >  hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com [104.47.44.33]:
 >  >>> MAIL FROM:
 > BODY=8BITMIME SIZE=5492
 >  <<< 550 5.7.1 Unfortunately, messages from [198.58.125.221] weren't
 > sent. Please contact your Internet service provider since part of their
 > network is on our block list (S3140). You can also refer your provider
 > to http://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx#errors.
 > [SN1NAM04FT034.eop-NAM04.prod.protection.outlook.com]
 > 
 > Has anyone seen similar problems recently with Microsoft mail customers
 > who are Mailman list subscribers?

Yes, I've seen a similar problem.  I was actually the source for a bit
of spam (backscatter from attempted subscriptions, fortunately those
lists don't need to be open subscription so I just blocked them all
with action DISCARD).

However, in my case it was specific to my IP, I was able to go to
their website and enter my IP into a "I won't do it again" page, and
after about 48 hours, mail was flowing again.  YMMV.
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists

[Jayson Smith]

Hi,

Unfortunately, yes, I have seen this behavior from Microsoft. I have no 
idea what triggers it, but my Linode IP has been blocklisted twice, once 
a bit over three years ago, and another time less than two weeks ago.


If you haven't already, try signing up for their Smart Network Data 
Service at https://postmaster.live.com/snds. On the FAQ page there you 
will find a link to submit a delivery support ticket, you can request 
your IP be removed from the blocklist. I have no idea how long your IP 
will stay on their blocklist if you don't request removal. Before 
requesting removal you should probably use some online checkers to 
insure you're not on any other blacklists, check your IP at 
senderscore.org, etc.


The last incident inspired me to move a high-traffic list I run from 
Mailman to Groups.IO.


Hope this helps,

Jayson

On 10/7/2018 12:28 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

FMP's mail and web server is a virtual server at Linode. We run half a
dozen Mailman lists or so, all opt-in lists for a couple of non-profits
and small business customers, all of which have been running
successfully for many months. Today I got a large number of
unsubscription notices from one of our lists, all of them for addresses
at hotmail.com, msn.com and outlook.com. They contain the following
text:

  hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com [104.47.44.33]:
  >>> MAIL FROM:
BODY=8BITMIME SIZE=5492
  <<< 550 5.7.1 Unfortunately, messages from [198.58.125.221] weren't
sent. Please contact your Internet service provider since part of their
network is on our block list (S3140). You can also refer your provider
to http://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx#errors.
[SN1NAM04FT034.eop-NAM04.prod.protection.outlook.com]

Has anyone seen similar problems recently with Microsoft mail customers
who are Mailman list subscribers?



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists

[Mark Sapiro]

On 10/07/2018 09:28 AM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:
> FMP's mail and web server is a virtual server at Linode. We run half a
> dozen Mailman lists or so, all opt-in lists for a couple of non-profits 
> and small business customers, all of which have been running
> successfully for many months. Today I got a large number of
> unsubscription notices from one of our lists, all of them for addresses
> at hotmail.com, msn.com and outlook.com. They contain the following
> text:
> 
>  hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com [104.47.44.33]:
>  >>> MAIL FROM:
> BODY=8BITMIME SIZE=5492
>  <<< 550 5.7.1 Unfortunately, messages from [198.58.125.221] weren't
> sent. Please contact your Internet service provider since part of their
> network is on our block list (S3140). You can also refer your provider
> to http://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx#errors.
> [SN1NAM04FT034.eop-NAM04.prod.protection.outlook.com]
> 
> Has anyone seen similar problems recently with Microsoft mail customers
> who are Mailman list subscribers?


I haven't seen Microsoft IP block bounces on any of the lists I'm
involved with in some time, but I used to have other issues with them.

You need to go to . In
the second paragraph under "Sender services, tools, and issue
submission" you will see "click here to contact support" which goes to
. Submit that form and be
prepared for an iterative process in which you feel you are dealing with
a robot, but you may ultimately get this fixed.

Also, signing up for "Smart Network Data Services"
 and maybe other things from
 can
help you keep up with what they think of you.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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[Mailman-Users] Microsoft blocking our Mailman lists

[Lindsay Haisley]

FMP's mail and web server is a virtual server at Linode. We run half a
dozen Mailman lists or so, all opt-in lists for a couple of non-profits 
and small business customers, all of which have been running
successfully for many months. Today I got a large number of
unsubscription notices from one of our lists, all of them for addresses
at hotmail.com, msn.com and outlook.com. They contain the following
text:

 hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com [104.47.44.33]:
 >>> MAIL FROM:
BODY=8BITMIME SIZE=5492
 <<< 550 5.7.1 Unfortunately, messages from [198.58.125.221] weren't
sent. Please contact your Internet service provider since part of their
network is on our block list (S3140). You can also refer your provider
to http://mail.live.com/mail/troubleshooting.aspx#errors.
[SN1NAM04FT034.eop-NAM04.prod.protection.outlook.com]

Has anyone seen similar problems recently with Microsoft mail customers
who are Mailman list subscribers?

-- 
Lindsay Haisley   | "The first casualty when
FMP Computer Services | war comes is truth."
512-259-1190  |
http://www.fmp.com| -- Hiram W Johnson


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