Re: [Mailman-Users] Support for Cpanel users?

[Brad Knowles]

At 1:15 AM -0400 4/17/07, Michael Kabot wrote:

>  I'll have to go back and pull out my notes on how I got Plesk, Mailman, &
>  Qmail to work together.  I know out of the box that unlike Cpanel/Mailman,
>  Plesk/Mailman is limited to a single namespace for list names across virtual
>  domains.

So far as I know, Plesk doesn't make any source-code level 
modifications to the Python and Mailman code that they ship as part 
of their product.  They just tend to be horribly, horribly 
out-of-date, and it's very difficult to bring things up-to-date and 
still keep them working properly.

-- 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Support for Cpanel users?

[Michael Kabot]

| For Plesk, they use an ancient version of Python, and an ancient 
| version of all the Python libraries, but if you know what you're 
| doing and you hold your mouth right while doing the correct dance 
| while waving a dead chicken, you can jury-rig things so that you can 
| actually replace the version of Mailman that is installed without 
| disturbing Plesk too much.
| 
| However, the moment you do this, you wipe out any possibility of ever 
| getting any kind of support on anything else related to Plesk -- your 
| hosting provider isn't going to touch the machine unless it's their 
| official plain-jane installed version, and the Plesk folks aren't 
| even going to talk to you at all.
| 
| So, this probably isn't a good option for use with Plesk, either.

The latest release of Plesk (8.1) from Feb 07 is only 1.1 revs out on python
and 0.4 revs out for mailman.  That's not too bad for commercial software.

As for support... I've found your hosting provider and Plesk won't really
give you the level of support you need anyhow if you need to be on the
latest release or tweak something in the config.  That's why these forums
exist !  Also, if you have the ability to change versions - usually it means
your are in a virtual or dedicated server which has very little technical
support anyhow.

I'll have to go back and pull out my notes on how I got Plesk, Mailman, &
Qmail to work together.  I know out of the box that unlike Cpanel/Mailman,
Plesk/Mailman is limited to a single namespace for list names across virtual
domains.  
  
In Service,
 
Michael Kabot
President - SOAR
  Scouting Online
Affordable & Reliable
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
585-388-0211

www.soarol.com 
 
 


| -Original Message-
| From: Brad Knowles [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
| Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:37 AM
| To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'; mailman-users@python.org
| Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Support for Cpanel users?
| 
| 
| At 11:41 PM -0400 4/16/07, Michael Kabot wrote:
| 
| >  It might be a thought to create a FAQ on how to upgrade 
| Cpanel/Plesk 
| > to the  latest version of Mailman and keep it up to date.  I'm not 
| > familiar with  Cpanel.
| 
| CPanel has made source-code level changes to the version of Mailman 
| they ship, so no version of Mailman you install from our sources will 
| include that changed functionality.  I think that this solution is a 
| non-starter for CPanel.
| 
| 
| For Plesk, they use an ancient version of Python, and an ancient 
| version of all the Python libraries, but if you know what you're 
| doing and you hold your mouth right while doing the correct dance 
| while waving a dead chicken, you can jury-rig things so that you can 
| actually replace the version of Mailman that is installed without 
| disturbing Plesk too much.
| 
| However, the moment you do this, you wipe out any possibility of ever 
| getting any kind of support on anything else related to Plesk -- your 
| hosting provider isn't going to touch the machine unless it's their 
| official plain-jane installed version, and the Plesk folks aren't 
| even going to talk to you at all.
| 
| So, this probably isn't a good option for use with Plesk, either.
| 
| -- 
| Brad Knowles <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Consultant & Author 
| LinkedIn Profile: <http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu> Slides from 
| Invited Talks: <http://tinyurl.com/tj6q4>
| 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Support for Cpanel users?

[Brad Knowles]

At 11:41 PM -0400 4/16/07, Michael Kabot wrote:

>  It might be a thought to create a FAQ on how to upgrade Cpanel/Plesk to the
>  latest version of Mailman and keep it up to date.  I'm not familiar with
>  Cpanel.

CPanel has made source-code level changes to the version of Mailman 
they ship, so no version of Mailman you install from our sources will 
include that changed functionality.  I think that this solution is a 
non-starter for CPanel.


For Plesk, they use an ancient version of Python, and an ancient 
version of all the Python libraries, but if you know what you're 
doing and you hold your mouth right while doing the correct dance 
while waving a dead chicken, you can jury-rig things so that you can 
actually replace the version of Mailman that is installed without 
disturbing Plesk too much.

However, the moment you do this, you wipe out any possibility of ever 
getting any kind of support on anything else related to Plesk -- your 
hosting provider isn't going to touch the machine unless it's their 
official plain-jane installed version, and the Plesk folks aren't 
even going to talk to you at all.

So, this probably isn't a good option for use with Plesk, either.

-- 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Support for Cpanel users?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 > is it possible for a Server Provider to dump the cPanel version of
 > MM and do a source install that would work similar to the
 > pre-package version??

Depends on what you mean by "work similarly", of course.  There are
four points of view: list user, list admin, site admin, and ISP tech
support.  The first two will see no change, the site admin will see
little adverse change, I suppose.  But to the ISP tech support, there
are several possible issues.

IIRC, one technical advantage of cPanel (and maybe Plesk) is that they
seamlessly handle large-scale virtual hosting.  Mailman normally has a
restriction that no two lists handled by a single installation may
have the same name, even if they are on different virtual hosts.
cPanel covers this up, not only from users and the list/site admins,
but from tech support at the hosting service as well.  This feature is
planned for a future release, but IIRC for 2.2, not in the 2.1 series.

Second, cPanel provides a single virtual host management interface.
Although any given site manager (== you) will probably not mind very
much, the ISP tech support has to worry about a significant increase
in workload (long term) from users confused by a somewhat different MI
for Mailman.

Third, any such transition imposes a (short-term) workload.  They have
to think about this as an investment.  Are the returns to them
sufficient to justify it?  They may not be, given that you're already
very satisfied with your host and unlikely to leave.

Fourth, cPanel may also provide services to the ISP (log management
and summaries, MI troubleshooting, don't-ask-me-I-don't-use-cPanel ;-)
that they will be loth to forego.

I think you should ask your provider what they think about this
issue.  Make it plain how much work you personally are willing to put
in as a liaison to Mailman development, and things like that.  They
are likely to take the position that the tradeoff they have chosen is
still the correct one, but if you can show them that exploring
alternatives will cost them very little, and that you're in it for the
long term, I can't see that they'd do anything but rejoice.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Support for Cpanel users?

[Michael Kabot]

Ed,

| Now to "stir the pot" -:), is it possible for a Server 
| Provider (bluehost.com is THE BEST with the BEST 
| "bang-for-the-buck" and the MOST responsive Tech group I have 
| EVER been exposed to!!) to dump the cPanel version of MM and 
| do a source install that would work similar to the 
| pre-package version??

I doubt you will get a hosting company to do that 

That would require the provider to directly support mailman themselves vs.
keeping it bundled under Cpanel.

It might be a thought to create a FAQ on how to upgrade Cpanel/Plesk to the
latest version of Mailman and keep it up to date.  I'm not familiar with
Cpanel.

  
In Service,
 
Michael Kabot
President - SOAR
  Scouting Online
Affordable & Reliable
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
585-388-0211

www.soarol.com 
 
 


| -Original Message-
| From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
| [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
| On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2007 12:04 AM
| To: mailman-users@python.org
| Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Support for Cpanel users?
| 
| 
| <>
| 
| As a "captive" of cPanel, I feel the need to add my .02 here.
| 
| Dragon is 100% correct.
| 
| Even tho I don't have command access I have learned a LOT 
| about MailMan via THIS List for which I am very grateful!!
| 
| 
| My sincerest THANKS to all you "solvers/teachers" !!
| 
| Ed
| www.justbrits.com
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Support for Cpanel users?

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

<>

As a "captive" of cPanel, I feel the need to add my .02 here.

Dragon is 100% correct.

Even tho I don't have command access I have learned a LOT about MailMan via 
THIS List for which I am very grateful!!

Now to "stir the pot" -:), is it possible for a Server Provider (bluehost.com 
is THE BEST with the BEST "bang-for-the-buck" and the MOST responsive Tech 
group I have EVER been exposed to!!) to dump the cPanel version of MM and do a 
source install that would work similar to the pre-package version??

My sincerest THANKS to all you "solvers/teachers" !!

Ed
www.justbrits.com
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Support for Cpanel users?

[Michael Kabot]

There may be some install/config specific issues for Cpanel & Plesk.  

At the same time, I would guess these users also have a lot of common
mailman questions that have nothing to do with Cpanel/Plesk as well

I'm for keeping 1 list.  As I stated earlier, I'll stay on to assist with
Plesk users.

  
In Service,
 
Michael Kabot
President - SOAR
  Scouting Online
Affordable & Reliable
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
585-388-0211

www.soarol.com 
 
 


| -Original Message-
| From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
| [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
| On Behalf Of Stephen J. Turnbull
| Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 9:39 PM
| To: Brad Knowles
| Cc: mailman-users@python.org; Tracey McCartney
| Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Support for Cpanel users?
| 
| 
| Brad Knowles writes:
| 
|  > Of course, if there isn't any other resource, then CPanel 
| users are 
|  > welcome to try to help each other through this list.
| 
| +1
| 
| Such help might even leak into the FAQ occasionally.
| 
|  > Maybe it's also time we set up a separate 
| mailman-cpanel-users list, 
|  > as well as a mailman-plesk-users list.
| 
| -1
| 
| I agree with Dragon's reasoning.
| 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Support for Cpanel users?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Brad Knowles writes:

 > Of course, if there isn't any other resource, then CPanel users are 
 > welcome to try to help each other through this list.

+1

Such help might even leak into the FAQ occasionally.

 > Maybe it's also time we set up a separate mailman-cpanel-users list, 
 > as well as a mailman-plesk-users list.

-1

I agree with Dragon's reasoning.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Support for Cpanel users?

[Dragon]

Brad Knowles sent the message below at 12:06 4/16/2007:

>Maybe it's also time we set up a separate mailman-cpanel-users list,
>as well as a mailman-plesk-users list.
 End original message. -

I see the problem with that idea being that there won't be many 
subscribers to either list and the core folks who provide a large 
part of the help on this list won't be on either of those lists 
because they don't use Plesk/cPanel.

In which case, it really becomes next to useless. A critical mass of 
knowledgeable/dedicated people are needed to make user-based support 
lists such as this function in a useful manner.

BTW, I do have access to a Plesk-based server (and I must say I hate 
it, for every task it makes easy, it makes nine more inordinately 
convoluted and hard).

No promises, but there is a possibility from time to time that such 
access could be useful. And to be honest, even though I have such 
access, it is unlikely that I would add yet another list to my many 
subscriptions just on the off chance I might be able to help somebody 
over there.

Dragon

~~~
  Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus)
~~~

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Support for Cpanel users?

[Brad Knowles]

At 7:40 PM -0500 4/15/07, Tracey McCartney wrote:

>  I understand from reading the archives that this is not the best place
>  for people to get support if they are simply administering Mailman lists
>  on remote hosts through Cpanel.

We don't have or use CPanel ourselves, and they provide a modified 
version of Mailman with their package, so our ability to support 
their modified version is limited.

>   Does anyone know of a good source of
>  such support?

If so, please let us know.  We've tried to provide as much 
information and pointers to other resources in the FAQ entry 
regarding CPanel, but we would welcome any additional information 
that we can add to the list.


Of course, if there isn't any other resource, then CPanel users are 
welcome to try to help each other through this list.

Maybe it's also time we set up a separate mailman-cpanel-users list, 
as well as a mailman-plesk-users list.

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[Mailman-Users] Support for Cpanel users?

[Tracey McCartney]

I understand from reading the archives that this is not the best place for 
people to get support if they are simply administering Mailman lists on remote 
hosts through Cpanel.  Does anyone know of a good source of such support?  
User-to-user support is fine, because I know the Cpanel forums are intended to 
assist purchasers rather than end-users.  Most of the hosts I've dealt with 
also know precious little about Mailman.


Thanks,

Tracey


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