Re: [Mailman-Users] rejecting messages *to* non-members

[Mark Sapiro]

LuKreme wrote:
>
>Yep, but I've set it at least twice for this list and I still find it getting 
>set back.


I don't know why that would happen.


>But that said, some Mailman lists have a setting that lets you set the 
>Reply-To: on your posts so that when people reply, it goes ONLY to the list, 
>as $DEITY intended.


Our recommendations are to not strip the poster's Reply-To: if any and
to not add any other Reply-To: addresses. This list is set that way so
you can add your own Reply-To: and it will be passed through.

List owners can set these as they see fit, but I don't see why anyone
would choose to strip the poster's Reply-To: if they weren't adding
one of their own.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] rejecting messages *to* non-members

[LuKreme]

On 27-Nov-2009, at 11:37, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> LuKreme wrote:
>> 
>> I'd much rather get two replies than what some lists do which is not send me 
>> a copy if they see I 'already got one' in the Cc or To headers. I REALLY 
>> hate that.
>> 
>> This list, for example.
> 
> 
> It's a user option (at least on Mailman lists) -
> 
> Avoid duplicate copies of messages?

Yep, but I've set it at least twice for this list and I still find it getting 
set back. But that said, some Mailman lists have a setting that lets you set 
the Reply-To: on your posts so that when people reply, it goes ONLY to the 
list, as $DEITY intended.


-- 
Love seekest only self to please, To bind another to its delight
Joys in another's loss of ease And builds a hell in Heaven's
despite!

--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] rejecting messages *to* non-members

[Mark Sapiro]

Ed wrote:
> Another prob I ran into early on was folks just blindly
> using the "Reply-All" function therefore if I had made
> the orginal post I would get TWO replies. 


In some cases at least, this is a good thing. E.g.,

- The poster is not a list member and would not otherwise see the reply.

- The poster is a digest member and wouldn't otherwise see the reply for
some time.

The typical list member is not able to know whether a poster is a
regular or digest member or even a list member at all.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] rejecting messages *to* non-members

[Mark Sapiro]

LuKreme wrote:
>
>I'd much rather get two replies than what some lists do which is not send me a 
>copy if they see I 'already got one' in the Cc or To headers. I REALLY hate 
>that.
>
>This list, for example.


It's a user option (at least on Mailman lists) -

Avoid duplicate copies of messages?

When you are listed explicitly in the To: or Cc: headers of a list
message, you can opt to not receive another copy from the mailing
list. Select Yes to avoid receiving copies from the mailing list;
select No to receive copies. 

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] rejecting messages *to* non-members

[LuKreme]

On 26-Nov-2009, at 16:26, Shop at Just Brits wrote:
> Another prob I ran into early on was folks just blindly
> using the "Reply-All" function therefore if I had made
> the orginal post I would get TWO replies.  I nipped THAT
> in the bud VERY quickly.


I'd much rather get two replies than what some lists do which is not send me a 
copy if they see I 'already got one' in the Cc or To headers. I REALLY hate 
that.

This list, for example.

-- 
Over 3,500 gay marriages and, what, no hellfire? I was promise
hellfire. And riots. What gives? -- Mark Morford

--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] rejecting messages *to* non-members

[Shop at " Just Brits "]

Glen, as my Lists are behind a cPanel install of MM
normally I have nothing to add G<> !!

<>

However in this case, maybe I can.  I have a dozen or
so small Lists [all under 100 folks] that are basically
private.  As I set-up the 4th or 5th I HAD learned of
just your sort of problem.  Therefore, I ADDED to
the "Welcome" mail a paragraph TELLING subscribers
what WILL happen when they pull stunts like you are
having occur.  Also, that Bcc'ing will have similiar
results. 


Even tho a couple of Lists are 'paying' customers I am
VERY strong in my verbage  !

The 'results' are that the problem has become a NON-
problem.

Another prob I ran into early on was folks just blindly
using the "Reply-All" function therefore if I had made
the orginal post I would get TWO replies.  I nipped THAT
in the bud VERY quickly.  LOL  If you notice, YOU are
only getting this message via the List  because I DO
know how to Edit the "Reply-All".

Best

Ed
Please visit MY site at:
www.justbrits.com
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] rejecting messages *to* non-members

[Mark Sapiro]

glen martin wrote:
>
>I'm thinking about a custom handler ... it doesn't look like a hard
>problem, just loop through the recipient list (recips), and look up
>whether each of them is a list member. Reject on failure, fall through
>and pass.  The hardest part will be figuring out now python works ...


If you want to do this as a "learn Python and Mailman" exercise, that's
great, but if you just want to get it done, I can suggest some code.
Let me know.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] rejecting messages *to* non-members

[glen martin]

Yah ... and responding to another note in the thread, it wouldn't stop
them from using bcc.  But I judge these errors to be lazy, not
malicious.  These users can easily send a note direct to other folks,
even forwarding the email they sent to the list if that is what they
really want to do.  But it is easier for them to just add their other
recipient to the one email, so that is what they do. Until this means
their email doesn't get to the list at all, at which point the 'easy'
solution is a different one. Or so I hope.

Again responding to another suggestion in this thread, the use of
recipient counts is an option I hadn't thought of.  The potential
problem here is I don't set a reply-to header, by and large their
clients don't have reply-list, so they use reply-all to respond to the
list. if we get a few messages deep into a thread, reply-all will go to
the list plus a couple of earlier senders, which will confuse the
recipient count.  Hmmm, maybe this would work if duplicate addressees
are removed earlier than the count filter.

The smtp solution was one I really hadn't considered, and while I'm sure
it could work, it seems very brute force. It seems to me that this is
something that should be configured for the list, not in postfix where
it gets involved in all mail handling.

I'm thinking about a custom handler ... it doesn't look like a hard
problem, just loop through the recipient list (recips), and look up
whether each of them is a list member. Reject on failure, fall through
and pass.  The hardest part will be figuring out now python works ...

Thanks to everyone for the responses and suggestions so far, much
appreciated.


Geoff Shang wrote:

On Wed, 25 Nov 2009, glen martin wrote:

I've got some rude users who occasionally cc non-list members on 
their messages to a restricted list that is actually intended to be 
private (membership by invitation only).  Then, as you might expect, 
when the non-member replies, that message is rejected or held for 
approval.  This doesn't seem friendly.


The root cause, though, is my users.  I'd therefore like to train 
them :) by rejecting their posts that copy non-members.


Just to make the point that rejecting such posts obviously wouldn't 
prevent them from reaching the off-list recipients that are being 
copied. But I assume you know this.


Geoff.

--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/glenm%40locutory.org



--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] rejecting messages *to* non-members

[Geoff Shang]

On Wed, 25 Nov 2009, glen martin wrote:

I've got some rude users who occasionally cc non-list members on their 
messages to a restricted list that is actually intended to be private 
(membership by invitation only).  Then, as you might expect, when the 
non-member replies, that message is rejected or held for approval.  This 
doesn't seem friendly.


The root cause, though, is my users.  I'd therefore like to train them :) by 
rejecting their posts that copy non-members.


Just to make the point that rejecting such posts obviously wouldn't 
prevent them from reaching the off-list recipients that are being copied. 
But I assume you know this.


Geoff.

--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] rejecting messages *to* non-members

[Terri Oda]

Mark Sapiro wrote:

glen martin wrote:
The root cause, though, is my users.  I'd therefore like to train them 
:) by rejecting their posts that copy non-members.

Actually, the best you can do is Recipient filters. If you set
require_explicit_destination to Yes and max_num_recipients to 2, any
post which is not explicitly addressed to and only to the list will be
held.


This also has the side effect of "training" (or annoying) your users who 
don't have "reply to list" buttons in their mail clients.  Which may be 
a reasonable side effect, or a really annoying one, depending on your 
list members.  When we did something similar for related reasons, the 
cries of joy and the cries of anguish pretty much cancelled each other 
out, but your mileage may vary.


 Terri

--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] rejecting messages *to* non-members

[Adam McGreggor]

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 08:42:50AM -0800, glen martin wrote:
> I've got some rude users who occasionally cc non-list members on their 
> messages to a restricted list that is actually intended to be private 
> (membership by invitation only).  

Suspend 'em from posting to the list for a breach of list protocol?

> Then, as you might expect, when the 
> non-member replies, that message is rejected or held for approval.  This 
> doesn't seem friendly.
> 
> The mailing list discussions around non-members seem to have been 
> dominated by discussion of messages from them, not to them.
> 
> Is there such an option, to reject messages that are {to,cc} 
> non-members? Or suggestions?

Bit tricky, that one, as presumably, you're not in charge of the
sending-mail machine.

what I would do is something like an ACL at SMTP time on the Mailman
machine, to the effect of determining:
* is the sender a list-member
* is there any address that's not the list address in the to/cc
  header

and if both conditions are true, then send an appropriate SMTP error
to the sender, discarding the mail.

Now, as for the first part, how you implement that will probably
depend on the size of the list, and which MTA you're using; you might
find periodically dumping the output of list_members for that/those
lists into a directory and searching through that, or dynamically
checking against the list (config/membership info), or using a wrapper
or some other method.

The second condition is trivial, with any knowledge of your MTA's
ACLs.

As for the not-friendly aspect, one approach might be to test inbound
mail, destined for the lists, for the existance of appropriate
headers (perhaps In-Reply-To:/Message-ID:), and verify those that
*you* use (or, indeed, add an X-Originated-From-FooBaa.com: header),
and if that condition is met, and the sender's not a member of the
list, to automagically add the Sender/From &c address to the allowed
senders array for the list. Spoofing headers won't really help, but we
all know that, anyhow, yes?

This last 'idea' ( ^^^ )doesn't necessarily help in user-education,
unless your list-members have the "X-Don't-Be-A-Dimwit:" header on
display ;)

[ ok, so how many of you went and checked ;) ]

Those said, I do perverse things with mail-servers...

(Exim is my MTA of preference, I think a few others prefer Postfix)

-- 
"what was asked of the Director in this case was not a statement of
prosecuting policy but a proleptic grant of immunity from prosecution.
That, I am quite satisfied, the Director had no power to give.”
-- Bingham of Cornhill, R (Pretty) v DPP [2002] 1 AC 800
--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

Re: [Mailman-Users] rejecting messages *to* non-members

[Mark Sapiro]

glen martin wrote:
>
>I've got some rude users who occasionally cc non-list members on their 
>messages to a restricted list that is actually intended to be private 
>(membership by invitation only).  Then, as you might expect, when the 
>non-member replies, that message is rejected or held for approval.  This 
>doesn't seem friendly.
>
>The root cause, though, is my users.  I'd therefore like to train them 
>:) by rejecting their posts that copy non-members.
>
>A natural spot for such an option would seem to be in Recipient filters, 
>but I don't see anything there, nor in the rest of the options for that 
>matter.


Actually, the best you can do is Recipient filters. If you set
require_explicit_destination to Yes and max_num_recipients to 2, any
post which is not explicitly addressed to and only to the list will be
held.

I.e. the list (or an acceptable alias) must be an explicit recipient or
the post will be held for implicit destination, and if there are 2 or
more explicit recipients, the post will be held for too many
recipients.

If you want more such as rejecting rather that holding the post and
accepting other explicit recipients as long as they are list members,
you will need a custom handler (see the FAQ at
).


Keep in mind that whatever you do may be futile. If the 'rude' members
are insistent, they will quickly learn to Bcc: their non-member
recipients, and there's no way you'll even see that, at least until
the Bcc'd non-members reply.

Also, list members with more than one email address may legitimately
Cc: one of their other addresses that isn't a list member.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org

[Mailman-Users] rejecting messages *to* non-members

[glen martin]

Apologies if this is a FAQ ... yadda yadda ... searched wiki, list 
archive, FAQs, even the documentation :)


I've got some rude users who occasionally cc non-list members on their 
messages to a restricted list that is actually intended to be private 
(membership by invitation only).  Then, as you might expect, when the 
non-member replies, that message is rejected or held for approval.  This 
doesn't seem friendly.


The root cause, though, is my users.  I'd therefore like to train them 
:) by rejecting their posts that copy non-members.


A natural spot for such an option would seem to be in Recipient filters, 
but I don't see anything there, nor in the rest of the options for that 
matter.
The mailing list discussions around non-members seem to have been 
dominated by discussion of messages from them, not to them.


Is there such an option, to reject messages that are {to,cc} 
non-members? Or suggestions?


Apologies again if this is obvious or a FAQ that I've somehow missed.

thanks

glen


--
Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
Unsubscribe: 
http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org