Re: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated?

[Brad Knowles]

on 12/1/08 1:50 PM, Ricardo Kleemann said:

But if I do an strace on the outgoing runner, it basically is working 
very slowly through a large memberlist. It will process a certain 
number, then hang a few seconds before it processes the next batch. The 
server is not loaded and I don't see any other evidence of problems.


That sounds like your MTA is doing DNS lookups for each and every 
envelope recipient as you try to transmit mail.  That needs to be fixed, 
and is one of the many "performance" tuning techniques that is discussed 
in the FAQ Wiki.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated?

[Mark Sapiro]

Ricardo Kleemann wrote:
>
>I wrote a tiny perl script to test the connection to the server via 
>localhost and I can consistently do 500 connections in 30 seconds. I don't 
>see any other evidence of the smtp hanging up.


The connection rate is generally not an issue as Mailman normall does
all the transactions over a single connection.  I.e. it connects, does
a "MAIL FROM" one or more "RCPT TO", and "DATA", and then begins
another "MAIL FROM", etc transaction without quitting or
disconnectiing.


>But if I do an strace on the outgoing runner, it basically is working very 
>slowly through a large memberlist. It will process a certain number, then 
>hang a few seconds before it processes the next batch. The server is not 
>loaded and I don't see any other evidence of problems.


If there are significant delays between sending RCPT TO and the
responce from the server, the server is probably doing DNS verifies on
the recipients. This kills performance on large lists.

What's it doing when it "hangs for a few seconds"? Presumably it is
either sending the message content or waiting for a reply from the MTA.


>Do you have a small python script I can run to test out the localhost smtp 
>that can maybe output some diagnostic information?


No. I don't have any such script. As I said in previous posts

>Even with SMTP_MAX_RCPTS set to 3, you
>should be delivering on the order of 100 or more recipients per
>second. What do you see in Mailman's smtp log for processing tomes for
>messages. How do the latest ones compare to those from days or a week
>ago?

and

>Search the FAQ  for "tuning".

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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated?

[Ricardo Kleemann]

Mark, thanks for your help.

For the most part I did get around the SMTP issues last week, I disabled 
ident lookup on the smtp server. But it seems to be back today and I don't 
quite understand what could be the problem.


I wrote a tiny perl script to test the connection to the server via 
localhost and I can consistently do 500 connections in 30 seconds. I don't 
see any other evidence of the smtp hanging up.


But if I do an strace on the outgoing runner, it basically is working very 
slowly through a large memberlist. It will process a certain number, then 
hang a few seconds before it processes the next batch. The server is not 
loaded and I don't see any other evidence of problems.


Do you have a small python script I can run to test out the localhost smtp 
that can maybe output some diagnostic information?


Thanks
Ricardo

- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Sapiro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "Ricardo Kleemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "mailman-users" 
Sent: Friday, November 28, 2008 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated?



Ricardo Kleemann wrote:


I have some more data on this...

I enabled the debug in SMTPDirect.py, and it shows that there really
aren't any problems. It shows that slowly a message is being sent out.



So your real issue is why is it proceeding so slowly.



I followed the performance tuning suggestions that had the MAX_RCPTS in
Defaults.py at an optimal value from 2-5, so I set it to 3.



Is the MTA doing DNS verification on incoming mail from Mailman? Are
you having some DNS issue?



But does that mean that mailman is going to simply get stuck on one
single message distribution and won't process any others until this one
is finished?



Yes.



I used to have these lists on another server and over there I had the
MAX_RCPTS set to a high number, but my mail server is set to reject
above 25 rcpts anyway so the end result that at max it would handle 25
rcpts. I remember that whenever a message arrived for the list (again
20,000 members) on the other server, the load average on the server
would go pretty high as it processed the list.

But now on this new server I never see the load avg go up. Is this
because of the MAX_RCPTS setting? What else would keep mailman from
efficiently handling the messages?



Slow response from the MTA. Even with SMTP_MAX_RCPTS set to 3, you
should be delivering on the order of 100 or more recipients per
second. What do you see in Mailman's smtp log for processing tomes for
messages. How do the latest ones compare to those from days or a week
ago?



The OutgoingRunner is just sitting there slowly distributing the message
and never seems to get to the next one.



It will when it finishes this one.

--
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan




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Re: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated?

[Mark Sapiro]

Ricardo Kleemann wrote:

>I have some more data on this...
>
>I enabled the debug in SMTPDirect.py, and it shows that there really
>aren't any problems. It shows that slowly a message is being sent out.


So your real issue is why is it proceeding so slowly.


>I followed the performance tuning suggestions that had the MAX_RCPTS in
>Defaults.py at an optimal value from 2-5, so I set it to 3.


Is the MTA doing DNS verification on incoming mail from Mailman? Are
you having some DNS issue?


>But does that mean that mailman is going to simply get stuck on one
>single message distribution and won't process any others until this one
>is finished?


Yes.


>I used to have these lists on another server and over there I had the
>MAX_RCPTS set to a high number, but my mail server is set to reject
>above 25 rcpts anyway so the end result that at max it would handle 25
>rcpts. I remember that whenever a message arrived for the list (again
>20,000 members) on the other server, the load average on the server
>would go pretty high as it processed the list.
>
>But now on this new server I never see the load avg go up. Is this
>because of the MAX_RCPTS setting? What else would keep mailman from
>efficiently handling the messages? 


Slow response from the MTA. Even with SMTP_MAX_RCPTS set to 3, you
should be delivering on the order of 100 or more recipients per
second. What do you see in Mailman's smtp log for processing tomes for
messages. How do the latest ones compare to those from days or a week
ago?


>The OutgoingRunner is just sitting there slowly distributing the message
>and never seems to get to the next one.


It will when it finishes this one.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated?

[Mark Sapiro]

Ricardo Kleemann wrote:

>Hello Mark,
>
>Thanks for your reply.
>
>
>> >I'm running mailman on Ubuntu Hardy, and another weird thing is that
>> >whenever I stop mailman, it always leaves at least one process hanging
>> >around. I have to forcefully kill it. After I stop it, I still see:
>> >
>> >list  3833  0.0  0.4  83076  7540 ?Ss   08:29
>> >0:00 /usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s -q start
>> >list  3842  0.1  2.5 105372 38148 ?S08:29
>> >0:01 /usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner
>> >--runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s


Note that the above "--runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1" indicates that
OutgoingRunner is not sliced - more below.


>> It appears that SMTPDirect (actually the underlying Python smtplib) is
>> hung waiting for a response from the MTA that isn't coming.
>> 
>
>But the strange thing here is that I have no issues at all connecting to
>the smtp server at localhost. Defaults.py has the standard config, using
>localhost with SMTPDirect.


What do you see in Mailman's smtp-failure log.


>Whatever the OutgoingRunner is stuck on, it's definitely stuck. It won't
>go away unless I do a kill -9
>
>> 
>> >Even more strange when I reboot the machine, I'll see 2 entire sets of
>> >mailman processes, almost as if the mailman start had been called twice.
>> 
>> 
>> It seems like you have two init scripts for Mailman.
>> 
>I would have thought so... but there's only 1 script under /etc/init.d/
>and no other scripts there reference mailman


Well, something is starting Mailman twice.


>> >In any case, right now it seems that mailman has stopped accepting
>> >posts. Is there a way to get more debug from mailman when "mailman post"
>> >is called? I don't see any errors, yet I don't see the post log file
>> >updating.
>> 
>> 
>> "mailman post" just puts the message in the in/ queue. I assume from
>> what you say above that it gets processed by IncomingRunner and even
>> archived and the problem is in OutgoingRunner.
>> 
>> See the FAQs at  and
>> .
>> 
>
>I can see that the in queue is probably working. There are currently 129
>files in the out/ queue.
>
>There are 2 OutgoingRunner processes and apparently BOTH of them are
>doing something because strace does show some activity


Since OutgoingRunner is not sliced, there should be only one
OutgoingRunner process. This needs to be corrected. See
.


>Process 14078 attached - interrupt to quit
>recvfrom(7, "250 Ok. 49303165.45C"..., 8192, 0, NULL, NULL)
>= 35
>sendto(7, "mail FROM:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]"..., 65, 0, NULL, 0) = 65
>recvfrom(7, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>sendto(7, "rcpt TO:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]"..., 35, 0, NULL, 0) = 35
>recvfrom(7, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>sendto(7, "rcpt TO:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]"..., 42, 0, NULL, 0) = 42
>recvfrom(7, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>sendto(7, "rcpt TO:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>\r\n", 31, 0, NULL, 0) = 31
>recvfrom(7, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>sendto(7, "data\r\n", 6, 0, NULL, 0)= 6
>recvfrom(7, "354 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>sendto(7, "Received: from sr05-01.mta.terra"..., 8256, 0, NULL, 0) =
>8256
>recvfrom(7, "250 Ok. 49303172.45D"..., 8192, 0, NULL, NULL)
>= 35
>
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/var/lib/mailman# strace -p13800
>Process 13800 attached - interrupt to quit
>recvfrom(8, "250 Ok. 493031A7.464"..., 8192, 0, NULL, NULL)
>= 35
>sendto(8, "mail FROM:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]"..., 65, 0, NULL, 0) = 65
>recvfrom(8, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>sendto(8, "rcpt TO:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>\r\n", 29, 0, NULL, 0) = 29
>recvfrom(8, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>sendto(8, "rcpt TO:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>\r\n", 31, 0, NULL, 0) = 31
>recvfrom(8, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>sendto(8, "rcpt TO:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]"..., 43, 0, NULL, 0) = 43
>recvfrom(8, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>sendto(8, "data\r\n", 6, 0, NULL, 0)= 6
>recvfrom(8, "354 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
>
>
>Yet even though it's being processed, the logs/post file isn't getting
>updated, and the number of messages in out/ doesn't decrease.


So OutgoingRunner never finishes delivery of even one post.  However, I
see 'data' commands in the traces above, so presumably, some
recipients are being delivered. Then when you kill OutgoingRunner and
restart it, It recovers the .bak file from the queue and redelivers to
the same recipients who by now have received multiple copies of the
message.


>Could this be because mailman is processing a very large list (20,000
>members) and it is just stuck on processing one message, while the other
>messages wait around?


It could be, but this would indicate that you need to do something to
allow SMTP between Mailman and the MTA to proceed faster. Search the
FAQ for "tuning".
>But I've been handling these lists for a long time and never had these
>problems. Mailman doesn't seem

Re: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated?

[Ricardo Kleemann]

I have some more data on this...

I enabled the debug in SMTPDirect.py, and it shows that there really
aren't any problems. It shows that slowly a message is being sent out.

I followed the performance tuning suggestions that had the MAX_RCPTS in
Defaults.py at an optimal value from 2-5, so I set it to 3.

But does that mean that mailman is going to simply get stuck on one
single message distribution and won't process any others until this one
is finished?

I used to have these lists on another server and over there I had the
MAX_RCPTS set to a high number, but my mail server is set to reject
above 25 rcpts anyway so the end result that at max it would handle 25
rcpts. I remember that whenever a message arrived for the list (again
20,000 members) on the other server, the load average on the server
would go pretty high as it processed the list.

But now on this new server I never see the load avg go up. Is this
because of the MAX_RCPTS setting? What else would keep mailman from
efficiently handling the messages? 

The OutgoingRunner is just sitting there slowly distributing the message
and never seems to get to the next one.

On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 09:43 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> Ricardo Kleemann wrote:
> >
> >I'm having some problems with my lists recently. I see in my mail log
> >that "mailman post" has been called. However, when I look in the
> >logs/post file, it's been almost 24 hours since anything has been
> >written there.
> 
> 
> The post log is written by SMTPDirect (under control of OutgoingRunner)
> when the outgoing message is delivered to the MTA.
> 
> >I'm running mailman on Ubuntu Hardy, and another weird thing is that
> >whenever I stop mailman, it always leaves at least one process hanging
> >around. I have to forcefully kill it. After I stop it, I still see:
> >
> >list  3833  0.0  0.4  83076  7540 ?Ss   08:29
> >0:00 /usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s -q start
> >list  3842  0.1  2.5 105372 38148 ?S08:29
> >0:01 /usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner
> >--runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s
> 
> 
> It appears that SMTPDirect (actually the underlying Python smtplib) is
> hung waiting for a response from the MTA that isn't coming.
> 
> 
> >Even more strange when I reboot the machine, I'll see 2 entire sets of
> >mailman processes, almost as if the mailman start had been called twice.
> 
> 
> It seems like you have two init scripts for Mailman.
> 
> 
> >In any case, right now it seems that mailman has stopped accepting
> >posts. Is there a way to get more debug from mailman when "mailman post"
> >is called? I don't see any errors, yet I don't see the post log file
> >updating.
> 
> 
> "mailman post" just puts the message in the in/ queue. I assume from
> what you say above that it gets processed by IncomingRunner and even
> archived and the problem is in OutgoingRunner.
> 
> See the FAQs at  and
> .
> 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated?

[Ricardo Kleemann]

Hello Mark,

Thanks for your reply.


> >I'm running mailman on Ubuntu Hardy, and another weird thing is that
> >whenever I stop mailman, it always leaves at least one process hanging
> >around. I have to forcefully kill it. After I stop it, I still see:
> >
> >list  3833  0.0  0.4  83076  7540 ?Ss   08:29
> >0:00 /usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s -q start
> >list  3842  0.1  2.5 105372 38148 ?S08:29
> >0:01 /usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner
> >--runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s
> 
> 
> It appears that SMTPDirect (actually the underlying Python smtplib) is
> hung waiting for a response from the MTA that isn't coming.
> 

But the strange thing here is that I have no issues at all connecting to
the smtp server at localhost. Defaults.py has the standard config, using
localhost with SMTPDirect.

Whatever the OutgoingRunner is stuck on, it's definitely stuck. It won't
go away unless I do a kill -9

> 
> >Even more strange when I reboot the machine, I'll see 2 entire sets of
> >mailman processes, almost as if the mailman start had been called twice.
> 
> 
> It seems like you have two init scripts for Mailman.
> 
I would have thought so... but there's only 1 script under /etc/init.d/
and no other scripts there reference mailman

> 
> >In any case, right now it seems that mailman has stopped accepting
> >posts. Is there a way to get more debug from mailman when "mailman post"
> >is called? I don't see any errors, yet I don't see the post log file
> >updating.
> 
> 
> "mailman post" just puts the message in the in/ queue. I assume from
> what you say above that it gets processed by IncomingRunner and even
> archived and the problem is in OutgoingRunner.
> 
> See the FAQs at  and
> .
> 

I can see that the in queue is probably working. There are currently 129
files in the out/ queue.

There are 2 OutgoingRunner processes and apparently BOTH of them are
doing something because strace does show some activity

Process 14078 attached - interrupt to quit
recvfrom(7, "250 Ok. 49303165.45C"..., 8192, 0, NULL, NULL)
= 35
sendto(7, "mail FROM:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]"..., 65, 0, NULL, 0) = 65
recvfrom(7, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
sendto(7, "rcpt TO:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]"..., 35, 0, NULL, 0) = 35
recvfrom(7, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
sendto(7, "rcpt TO:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]"..., 42, 0, NULL, 0) = 42
recvfrom(7, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
sendto(7, "rcpt TO:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>\r\n", 31, 0, NULL, 0) = 31
recvfrom(7, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
sendto(7, "data\r\n", 6, 0, NULL, 0)= 6
recvfrom(7, "354 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
sendto(7, "Received: from sr05-01.mta.terra"..., 8256, 0, NULL, 0) =
8256
recvfrom(7, "250 Ok. 49303172.45D"..., 8192, 0, NULL, NULL)
= 35


[EMAIL PROTECTED]:/var/lib/mailman# strace -p13800
Process 13800 attached - interrupt to quit
recvfrom(8, "250 Ok. 493031A7.464"..., 8192, 0, NULL, NULL)
= 35
sendto(8, "mail FROM:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]"..., 65, 0, NULL, 0) = 65
recvfrom(8, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
sendto(8, "rcpt TO:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>\r\n", 29, 0, NULL, 0) = 29
recvfrom(8, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
sendto(8, "rcpt TO:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>\r\n", 31, 0, NULL, 0) = 31
recvfrom(8, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
sendto(8, "rcpt TO:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]"..., 43, 0, NULL, 0) = 43
recvfrom(8, "250 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9
sendto(8, "data\r\n", 6, 0, NULL, 0)= 6
recvfrom(8, "354 Ok.\r\n", 8192, 0, NULL, NULL) = 9


Yet even though it's being processed, the logs/post file isn't getting
updated, and the number of messages in out/ doesn't decrease.

Could this be because mailman is processing a very large list (20,000
members) and it is just stuck on processing one message, while the other
messages wait around?

But I've been handling these lists for a long time and never had these
problems. Mailman doesn't seem to be getting much cpu usage. 



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Re: [Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated?

[Mark Sapiro]

Ricardo Kleemann wrote:
>
>I'm having some problems with my lists recently. I see in my mail log
>that "mailman post" has been called. However, when I look in the
>logs/post file, it's been almost 24 hours since anything has been
>written there.


The post log is written by SMTPDirect (under control of OutgoingRunner)
when the outgoing message is delivered to the MTA.

>I'm running mailman on Ubuntu Hardy, and another weird thing is that
>whenever I stop mailman, it always leaves at least one process hanging
>around. I have to forcefully kill it. After I stop it, I still see:
>
>list  3833  0.0  0.4  83076  7540 ?Ss   08:29
>0:00 /usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s -q start
>list  3842  0.1  2.5 105372 38148 ?S08:29
>0:01 /usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner
>--runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s


It appears that SMTPDirect (actually the underlying Python smtplib) is
hung waiting for a response from the MTA that isn't coming.


>Even more strange when I reboot the machine, I'll see 2 entire sets of
>mailman processes, almost as if the mailman start had been called twice.


It seems like you have two init scripts for Mailman.


>In any case, right now it seems that mailman has stopped accepting
>posts. Is there a way to get more debug from mailman when "mailman post"
>is called? I don't see any errors, yet I don't see the post log file
>updating.


"mailman post" just puts the message in the in/ queue. I assume from
what you say above that it gets processed by IncomingRunner and even
archived and the problem is in OutgoingRunner.

See the FAQs at  and
.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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[Mailman-Users] when does logs/post get updated?

[Ricardo Kleemann]

Hi,

I'm having some problems with my lists recently. I see in my mail log
that "mailman post" has been called. However, when I look in the
logs/post file, it's been almost 24 hours since anything has been
written there.

I'm running mailman on Ubuntu Hardy, and another weird thing is that
whenever I stop mailman, it always leaves at least one process hanging
around. I have to forcefully kill it. After I stop it, I still see:

list  3833  0.0  0.4  83076  7540 ?Ss   08:29
0:00 /usr/bin/python /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl -s -q start
list  3842  0.1  2.5 105372 38148 ?S08:29
0:01 /usr/bin/python /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner
--runner=OutgoingRunner:0:1 -s

Even more strange when I reboot the machine, I'll see 2 entire sets of
mailman processes, almost as if the mailman start had been called twice.

In any case, right now it seems that mailman has stopped accepting
posts. Is there a way to get more debug from mailman when "mailman post"
is called? I don't see any errors, yet I don't see the post log file
updating.

Ricardo


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