Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Allan Hansen writes:

 > [ABH] The “From:” should contain the author address, but if we want to
 > keep our Yahoo/AOL subscribers…

Exactly.  This is what we economists call the Theorem of the Second
Best: When it's already broken, sometimes the best you can do is to
break it harder.

 > [ABH] That’s not a bad idea, Stephen. I could try that. And yes, we are very
 > protective of our lists, so “Reply-To:” is the author address.
 > When I get Mailman 3 set up, I’ll put in an ‘oopsie’ address with
 > an auto-responder. I’ll assume that Mailman 3 will be able to detect
 > auto-responder infinite loops. :-)

Without change to the Mailman code (Mailman 2 or Mailman 3), the
"oopsie" address will have to be handled by a separate autoresponder.
Mailman only knows about the standard addresses, and it doesn't allow
configuration of autoresponder features beyond "on" and "off".

 > I’m a bit red in the face that I did not think of that, but what
 > are friends for!

"Mail is hard, and then you retire."  From "The Sysadmin's Lament".
:-)

Steve
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Allan Hansen]

On Dec 10, 2019, at 10:27 , Stephen J. Turnbull 
 wrote:

> 
> Allan Hansen writes:
> 
>> But Apple Mail puts the mangled address To: into the ‘Previous
>> Recipients’ list to help with auto-completion later.
> 
> I assume by "To" you mean "From”.

[ABH] Yes, sorry. It takes the “From:” address and saves that, instead of the
“ReplyTo:” address that is the new “To:” address.
> 
> I don't see how we can do anything reliable about that.  From is a
> *required* field in RFC 5322 message syntax, and it *must* contain a
> mailbox (perhaps along with a display name).  Some possibilities
> follow.

[ABH] The “From:” should contain the author address, but if we want to
keep our Yahoo/AOL subscribers…

> We could put an "oopsie, did you mean to send to us" address at the
> Mailman host in there that replies with explanation from Mailman, but
> when you don't have the list in Reply-To, people who *intend* a reply
> to list will have to copy/paste by hand (as mentioned earlier a link
> in the footer will not have the features of a client-composed reply).
> That might be OK for you, since you seem to really discourage replies
> to list.

[ABH] That’s not a bad idea, Stephen. I could try that. And yes, we are very
protective of our lists, so “Reply-To:” is the author address.
When I get Mailman 3 set up, I’ll put in an ‘oopsie’ address with
an auto-responder. I’ll assume that Mailman 3 will be able to detect
auto-responder infinite loops. :-)

> 
> Another try would be a Rule that checks for the "via list-at-this-
> server" formulation and automatically bounces the mail back
> (regardless of any "don't at me" settings), with an explanation of why
> the mail bounced and a suggestion to clean up Previous Recipients.
> You could simulate this with the existing spam hold feature, but I'm
> not sure that can be set to reject on a per recipe basis, and I don't
> think it would allow for the explanation to differ across rejections.
> 
> Of course that will fail if the user changes the display name.  What
> is your experience?  Do these users just accept the display name with
> "via list" attached, or do they tend to fix it while failing to notice
> the unintended address?  

[ABH] The disasters all have had the full mangled display name, so no editing
took place in those cases. I think the first suggestion above is better.

> 
>> I do tell people to clean up their ‘Previous Recipients’ list, they
>> eventually forget and this happens again.
> 
> You're a hero!  But this sucks for you.  The point of an advanced list
> manager is that you shouldn't have to do this kind of mechanical work.

[ABH] I’m trying to get out of it, as you can see. :-)

I very much appreciate your suggestions and help, and will let you 
and the list know how the autoresponder works out. I’m a bit red in the face
that I did not think of that, but what are friends for!

Yours

Allan


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Allan Hansen writes:

 > But Apple Mail puts the mangled address To: into the ‘Previous
 > Recipients’ list to help with auto-completion later.

I assume by "To" you mean "From".  We don't munge "To" in this
situation (there is a personalized list configuration where To is
changed from the list to the subscriber, but that shouldn't cause
client problems or DMARC issues).

I don't see how we can do anything reliable about that.  From is a
*required* field in RFC 5322 message syntax, and it *must* contain a
mailbox (perhaps along with a display name).  Some possibilities
follow.

We could stick a .invalid address in there, which would immediately
bounce back to the sender.  But that screws those users because the
client hides the address and we don't control the delivery service
notice in that case, it's the user's outgoing mail gateway that will
reject it.  Or possibly silently drop it.  So there's no guarantee
they'll get a message that makes any sense to them.  And if they
figure out the list is related, you'll take some heat.

We could put an "oopsie, did you mean to send to us" address at the
Mailman host in there that replies with explanation from Mailman, but
when you don't have the list in Reply-To, people who *intend* a reply
to list will have to copy/paste by hand (as mentioned earlier a link
in the footer will not have the features of a client-composed reply).
That might be OK for you, since you seem to really discourage replies
to list.

Another try would be a Rule that checks for the "via list-at-this-
server" formulation and automatically bounces the mail back
(regardless of any "don't at me" settings), with an explanation of why
the mail bounced and a suggestion to clean up Previous Recipients.
You could simulate this with the existing spam hold feature, but I'm
not sure that can be set to reject on a per recipe basis, and I don't
think it would allow for the explanation to differ across rejections.

Of course that will fail if the user changes the display name.  What
is your experience?  Do these users just accept the display name with
"via list" attached, or do they tend to fix it while failing to notice
the unintended address?  It sounds like this might be good enough,
possibly combined with a second Rule which looks for the list's
display name (and any variants popular with posters) and holds posts
that don't contain it for moderation.

(Note to me: Possibly the mail's entire content would need to be
scrubbed when bouncing but available at the archive as a .bin thingie
to avoid certain kinds of bounce spam.  And if so, it would need to be
removed in say 24 hours since it's almost certainly private.  Also
maybe a check for In-Reply-To/References could help identify likely
private mail?)

 > I do tell people to clean up their ‘Previous Recipients’ list, they
 > eventually forget and this happens again.

You're a hero!  But this sucks for you.  The point of an advanced list
manager is that you shouldn't have to do this kind of mechanical work.

Steve

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Dan Halbert]

This is exactly the problem I mentioned a few weeks earlier that did not 
elicit much of a response. I asked for some way to change the "via" 
string and there wasn't one. I have to remind people periodically to 
remove any "via" entries from their address books.


AOL/Yahoo/Verizon cause other problems too, due to server reputation. I 
signed up for a hosted Mailman 3 service, added a list with about 60 
A/Y/V addresses, and it caused terrible server reputation problems for 
the provider. Mail delivery to A/Y/V was simply dropped or held up for 
days, and was always classified as spam. It appears to be ameliorated 
now, but it was a horror show. No amount of cajoling can get the users 
off those providers - they have enough trouble just operating their mail 
clients. And I cannot simply drop them: they are members of an 
organization the lists serve.


Dan

On 12/9/19 9:06 AM, Allan Hansen wrote:

Hi Stephen,

Thank you a bunch for looking into this.

I was trying to say that ReplyTo: works fine, for just the reasons you mention. 
No problem there. At first. ;-)
But Apple Mail puts the mangled address To: into the ‘Previous Recipients’ list 
to help with auto-completion later.

Here are the steps. I’m avoiding real addresses, as my mail client further 
mangled them with the auto-inserted ‘mailto:’ command confusing my message.

Here goes:

a. Subscriber receives message from the list. The From: is a mangled From: as 
recommended, and the ReplyTo: is the author’s emal address:
From: Author Name (author.address) via list 
ReplyTo: author.address

b. Subscriber replies to author. Sees correct To: address (the author.address) 
from the ReplyTo: header. So far all is apparently OK.
However, to be ‘helpful’ with auto-completion later, Apple puts the mangled string 
“Author Name (author.address) via list ” into the mail client’s  
‘Previous Recipients’ list!!
To: author.address

c. Subscriber much later tries to send a private message to the author and starts typing 
"Autho...". Apple at this point retrieves the mangled string from the ‘Previous 
Recipents’ list, but in their infinite wisdom, they hide the actual address, which is the 
list address. The subscriber does not suspect that things have gone awry because it looks 
fine. Well, not completely fine, but enough so. So he/she hits ’Send’ while seeing this 
and only this in their To: field:
To: Author Name (author.address) via list

d. People on the list receive a private message that was intended for the 
original author. Result: red faces all around and possibly private data exposed 
to the entire list. I just now happened to receive such a message from one of 
my lists! No real disaster this time, luckily, but confusing for the lists 
members.

I do tell people to clean up their ‘Previous Recipients’ list, they eventually 
forget and this happens again.

If this can’t be solved somehow, I will have to unsub all my AOL and YAHOO 
subscribers (a lot), as it’s too dangerous to have the mangling causing these 
privacy mishaps. They don’t really have to change their main email, just get 
another one that they use only for the lists.

By the way, I have asked Brian to help with installing Mailman 3 and look 
forward to working with him and with the new system.

Yours,

Allan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Allan Hansen]

Hi Stephen,

Thank you a bunch for looking into this.

I was trying to say that ReplyTo: works fine, for just the reasons you mention. 
No problem there. At first. ;-)
But Apple Mail puts the mangled address To: into the ‘Previous Recipients’ list 
to help with auto-completion later.

Here are the steps. I’m avoiding real addresses, as my mail client further 
mangled them with the auto-inserted ‘mailto:’ command confusing my message.

Here goes:

a. Subscriber receives message from the list. The From: is a mangled From: as 
recommended, and the ReplyTo: is the author’s emal address:
From: Author Name (author.address) via list 
ReplyTo: author.address

b. Subscriber replies to author. Sees correct To: address (the author.address) 
from the ReplyTo: header. So far all is apparently OK.
However, to be ‘helpful’ with auto-completion later, Apple puts the mangled 
string “Author Name (author.address) via list ” into the mail 
client’s  ‘Previous Recipients’ list!! 
To: author.address

c. Subscriber much later tries to send a private message to the author and 
starts typing "Autho...". Apple at this point retrieves the mangled string from 
the ‘Previous Recipents’ list, but in their infinite wisdom, they hide the 
actual address, which is the list address. The subscriber does not suspect that 
things have gone awry because it looks fine. Well, not completely fine, but 
enough so. So he/she hits ’Send’ while seeing this and only this in their To: 
field:
To: Author Name (author.address) via list

d. People on the list receive a private message that was intended for the 
original author. Result: red faces all around and possibly private data exposed 
to the entire list. I just now happened to receive such a message from one of 
my lists! No real disaster this time, luckily, but confusing for the lists 
members. 

I do tell people to clean up their ‘Previous Recipients’ list, they eventually 
forget and this happens again.

If this can’t be solved somehow, I will have to unsub all my AOL and YAHOO 
subscribers (a lot), as it’s too dangerous to have the mangling causing these 
privacy mishaps. They don’t really have to change their main email, just get 
another one that they use only for the lists.

By the way, I have asked Brian to help with installing Mailman 3 and look 
forward to working with him and with the new system.

Yours,

Allan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Mark Sapiro writes:

 > Actually, that's still not quite correct. Ours looks like
 > 
 > "xxx via list" 

Thank you for the correction.

I wonder whether users would behave differently if we used "list on
behalf of xxx" instead of "xxx via list"?

 > I suspect this latter is due to what Allan alluded to when he said "I
 > did the code change for the mangling long ago ...".

Ah, I see.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 12/8/19 8:17 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> 
> That's not our mangling, it's your client's.  Ours would look like
> this:
> 
> "Allan Hansen (han...@rc.org) via list" 


Actually, that's still not quite correct. Ours looks like

"xxx via list" 

where xxx is
if original From contains a display name then that display name
else if original From is a member and the member has a real name then
that real name
else the From email address.

I.e., it could be

"Allan Hansen via list" 

or

"han...@rc.org via list" 

but wouldn't be

"Allan Hansen (han...@rc.org) via list" 

I suspect this latter is due to what Allan alluded to when he said "I
did the code change for the mangling long ago ...".

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Allan Hansen writes:

 > I have set the ReplyTo: as the author, it’s not the immediate
 > replying as such that is an issue, and the mangled string is
 > factually correct. The issue comes when Apple Mail does
 > auto-completion and hides the email address.
 > 
 > A mangled From: address like this:
 > 
 > "Allan Hansen (han...@rc.org ) via list" 
 > mailto:r...@mail.rc.org>>

That's not our mangling, it's your client's.  Ours would look like
this:

"Allan Hansen (han...@rc.org) via list" 

Most likely, the client actually uses the Mailman version in composing
replies but displays the above to you (or presents it to the system
highlight-and-copy function).

 > will show up as 
 > 
 > ‘Allan Hansen (han...@rc.org ) via list’ 
 > 
 > in Apple Mail with the address hidden by the mail client. Anyone
 > sending to that string will assume that it goes to me. It does
 > not. It goes to the list.

I don't contest your statement of fact, but if Reply-To indeed
contains author, it should go to author.  (I believe we *always* add
author to Reply-To if Munge From is in effect.)  If it doesn't go to
Reply-To, the client is at fault, because if Reply-To is set, it is
the *author*'s preferred address for receiving replies, and From
*should* be ignored in collecting the addressees to use in replies.
(It's possible that it *also* goes to the list, if the list is in
Reply-To or the user requests "reply to all".)

Bottom line: I'll do what I can to help you, but I'm not sure whatever
it is we come up with is suitable for adding to the main Mailman
distribution.

 > On the other hand, if this is the case, it appears that the
 > automatically inserted message footer added by Mailman is working
 > fine (see next). Would anything prevent adding to this section?

No.

 > Can it be a REPLY button?

No.  I'm pretty sure the footer is plain text (see below) and plain
text can't specify buttons.  The *client* can add them as easily as it
can turn addresses in text into clickable links.

The problem is that the From (if no Reply-To) and Reply-To (preferred
if present) header fields are the only reliable ways to inform the
client that a given address is the author's preferred reply address.
In other words, if it ain't working, it's broke beyond what we can do
to fix.  We can maybe help or workaround, but no promises, because
anything we do will require cooperation from your subscribers to be
effective.  We can help make the RightThang[tm] easier to discover,
but the proverb about horses and water applies.

 > --
 > Allan's mailing list
 > al...@mail.rc.org  
 >   >

I don't know what your client is so I can't be sure, but the line of
hyphens suggests that the footer is added as a text/plain part, not
text/html.  In any case, Mailman presents the addresses as text, not
as links, so it must be something the client is doing.

It turns out to be easy for software to recognize URLs in text, so
most clients do so and turn them into links automatically, even though
Mailman doesn't.  I'm pretty sure that this works fine in almost all
clients.  When it doesn't, it's normally an easy copy-paste.  Adding a
mailto URL to list in the footer can be done, it's just a matter of
editing a template.  (I don't think that editing can be done in
Postorius (the admin on the web module) yet, but I believe it's on the
todo list.)

Adding a mailto URL to author probably requires a feature we don't
have yet (I don't think the author's address is made available to the
footer generation function.)  I will look into that.  Again, even with
this feature you would have to customize in the footer template.  It
will not be a default behavior of Mailman.

 > I did the code change for the mangling long ago, on advice from
 > this list. It worked for a while, until the auto-completion issue
 > and hiding of the actual email addresses messed it up. I’d rather
 > not have the same problems in Mailman 3, so I’m looking for
 > something, anything - even if it’s not nice, that does not cause my
 > subscribers to be confused or to send private messages to 1000
 > people without knowing it.

Without seeing a full header of a message as distributed by your list,
I can't be sure.  But if the settings are as you say and the From and
Reply-To headers are set as I expect they are, there is no sure way to
prevent misaddressed mail except to change clients, because the
clients that reply to From in the presence of a Reply-To field are
just plain broken.  The list cannot work around them without risking
breaking other clients, where those other clients *are* conforming to
Internet standards.

Alternatively, you could ban posts by @yahoo.com and @aol.com
addresses, in which case most of the need to munge from goes away.

But neither of those is 

Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Allan Hansen]

Stephen et al.,

You’re right that using links instead of a Reply function is unattractive and 
not how email is supposed to work. On the other hand, the same surely goes for 
the To: mangling:

I have set the ReplyTo: as the author, it’s not the immediate replying as such 
that is an issue, and the mangled string is factually correct. The issue comes 
when Apple Mail does auto-completion and hides the email address.

A mangled From: address like this:

"Allan Hansen (han...@rc.org ) via list" 
mailto:r...@mail.rc.org>>

will show up as 

‘Allan Hansen (han...@rc.org ) via list’ 

in Apple Mail with the address hidden by the mail client. Anyone sending to 
that string will assume that it goes to me. It does not. It goes to the list.

So putting “Allan Hansen (hansen AT rc.org )" in the 
description will not help this issue. Using it with auto-completion will still 
send it to the hidden list address.

You’re right that if the author is sending HTML mail, adding a hyperlink to it 
is not likely to be successful at all. So maybe that’s not a good solution. On 
the other hand, if this is the case, it appears that the automatically inserted 
message footer added by Mailman is working fine (see next). Would anything 
prevent adding to this section? Can it be a REPLY button?

--
Allan's mailing list
al...@mail.rc.org 
>


I did the code change for the mangling long ago, on advice from this list. It 
worked for a while, until the auto-completion issue and hiding of the actual 
email addresses messed it up. I’d rather not have the same problems in Mailman 
3, so I’m looking for something, anything - even if it’s not nice, that does 
not cause my subscribers to be confused or to send private messages to 1000 
people without knowing it.

Yours,

Allan



> On Dec 7, 2019, at 6:21 , Stephen J. Turnbull 
>  wrote:
> 
> Allan Hansen writes:
> 
>> 1. Replace the From: address with a no-reply address on the list
>>   server. Don’t add the sender’s address in quotes.
> 
> I believe this requires a change in the Mailman code.
> 
> I guess you want the author's display name, if available, there?  What
> if there is no display name, or it doesn't identify the author?  I
> guess the best play would be the mailbox of the author.
> 
> I guess some nontechnical users
> might just copy that to an address field with less than amusing
> results, but it might be useful in manual lookups in address books,
> since most clients do not display Reply-To.
> 
>> 2. Keep the ‘Reply-To:’ address as the sender’s address (that’s
>>   what I have it set to now - I don’t want people to reply to the
>>   lists).
> 
> I believe this doesn't need a change to Mailman.
> 
>> 3. Put HTML mailto: links for ‘Reply to Sender’ and Reply to List’
>>   at the bottom of the message.
> 
> A mailto link for the list is configurable.  However, the link for
> author would require changes to Mailman code I'm pretty sure.  Also,
> as explained below, it's probably very unreliable and unattractive to
> try to use links to simulate a mail client's reply function.
> 
> First of all, users expect a reply function to copy the text of the
> original.  mailto URLs don't provide a facility for that.  We would
> have to add code to copy the text to the URL.  I'm not sure how
> typical clients would react to that, and if the original is plain
> text, the message's whole text would be visibly duplicated in the
> footer of the message distributed to subscribers, which would likely
> be displayed as is by most clients.  This would be pretty distressing
> to most subscribers, I think.  Also, I expect most clients use the DOM
> they have constructed to display the original mail to populate replies
> they construct themselves, but Mailman can't know about that.  Users
> may not be pleased with replies constructed from a mailto URL; in
> particular, it would not be displayed or transmitted as copied, but
> rather as original text.
> 
> Second, users expect replies to preserve threading.  This would mean
> adding References or at least In-Reply-To header fields to the mailto
> URLs.  This would be straightforward to implement, but would result in
> large, unreadable plaintext footers, if some users are sending
> plaintext mail.  (Though it wouldn't be as bad as if you tried to
> include the original text in the reply's composition window, I imagine
> you'd get complaints.)  Again, I'm not sure how typical clients would
> deal with it, whether they would follow the RFCs or screw up.
> 
> Third, if you mean "links as HTML" rather than "insert URLs
> somehow", this is rather problematic.  HTML mail is a minefield.
> There are standards, but in practice they're all violated by one
> client or another.  Manipulating HTML 

Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Brian Carpenter]

Hi Allan,

I have successfully installed Mailman 3 on 4 servers now. Please contact me off 
list if you are interested in my installation service.

Thanks,
Brian Carpenter 

> On Dec 7, 2019, at 12:17 AM, Allan Hansen  wrote:
> 
> All,
> 
> One of my main gripes is the From: mangling that we had to use to allow AOL 
> and Yahoo subscribers to send messages without messing everyone else up. I 
> have now been informed that Mailman 3 does not solve this problem, but I’d 
> like to move to Mailman 3 anyway. So what to do?
> 
> How about this:
> 
> 1. Replace the From: address with a no-reply address on the list server. 
> Don’t add the sender’s address in quotes.
> 2. Keep the ‘Reply-To:’ address as the sender’s address (that’s what I have 
> it set to now - I don’t want people to reply to the lists).
> 3. Put HTML mailto: links for ‘Reply to Sender’ and Reply to List’ at the 
> bottom of the message.
> 
> 
> My other solution:
> 
> Require subscribers from AOL/Yahoo and whichever other service with the same 
> misguided policy to get another email address for the lists.
> 
> 
> Is there anyone on this who will be willing to help installing Mailman 3 for 
> me on a Linux system. I have tried and I have had two experts try as well, 
> but we have all run into difficulty. I’ll pay, of course.
> 
> Yours,
> 
>Allan Hansen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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