Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
On 12/9/07, Cyndi Norwitz wrote: Is there a way *I* can without the ISP doing anything? Yes. Set up your spam filters under Privacy options... then Spam filters. There is nothing called spam filters in privacy options. Then your ISP has installed a pretty non-standard version of Mailman. The standard version has this feature. Again, you need to talk to your ISP. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
On 12/9/07, Cyndi Norwitz wrote: But this isn't useful to me. Oh, I'm sure some of the really bad spam would go away, but this is a health list and so there are *a lot* of false positives because we mention a lot of spam-like keywords. So I'd have to set the spam level pretty high. It depends on how your ISP runs SpamAssassin. It is possible to run it in a manner where the user has full control over what rules and what scores will be applied to their mail, and when you train SpamAssassin by feeding it examples of spam that has gotten through or ham that has accidentally been mis-identified, these rules and scores will be updated as necessary. I've been seriously fighting spam for about twelve years (as the Sr. Internet Mail Administrator for AOL, I wrote some of the earliest comprehensive anti-spam measures for sendmail, which I then re-published to the community), and I've spoken on this subject at conferences, I've been a member of the IETF/IRTF Anti-Spam Research Group, and was the head of the Best Current Practices sub-group. I can tell you, with some authority, that the only effective way to run SpamAssassin is to do so using these per-user methods. And that if you (the ISP) do actually run it in this way, you really can quite effectively catch or identify most spam, even in environments where you would otherwise tend to generate excessive false positive matches. Of course, that doesn't mean that your ISP is actually going to do any of these things. Here's what I want: Subscribers who are unmoderated to be whitelisted. Non-subscribers who I have set to auto-accept to be whitelisted. That doesn't work, either. Spammers troll the archives of mailing lists to find addresses they can use -- to spam those mailing lists, among others. You can't just auto-whitelist all addresses in certain classes. Potential spam from the moderated box to be sent to my graymail (my ISP's name (or maybe a common name, I don't know) for suspected spam--they send an email each night with the from and subject headers). No, that's not a common name. I've been in this business for nearly twenty years, and in all that time, I have never heard this particular term used in this manner. More common terms are folders with names like quarantine or probable spam. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
On 12/10/07, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: There are alternatives such as SpamBayes which may be easier to integrate. Everything is being done by her ISP, so I don't know that it's useful to discuss alternative solutions. Either way, she's got to live with whatever they give her, at least up until the point she reconsiders whether or not she's going to move at least her mailing list services to a different provider that might be more responsive. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
On 12/9/07, Cyndi Norwitz wrote: False positive means it's legit mail that is in my spam folder. Using my ISP's defaults. Sounds like you need to talk to your ISP about how those defaults can be changed to be something more suitable for you. Anything in moderation for MM must be clicked on. Not true. At least, not entirely true. If there's anything you want to allow through, then yes -- those have to be clicked on. Everything else could be left in the default Defer mode, and then you simply click the check box at the top or bottom of the page which says Discard all mail marked 'Defer', then hit the Submit Your Changes button. One at a time. 3 clicks per sender (which means per spam most of the time) if I want to set the address to auto-discard and ban the spammer from joining the list, in addition to simply discarding the email. See above. All the stuff you want thrown away should be able to be thrown away with just one and only one click. You should only have to click on anything else if you want to reject it, allow it through, or take some other less typical action. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
On 12/10/2007, Mark Sapiro ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Mailman sends a summary every morning with the From: and Subject: of the held posts waiting moderator action. Where is this option? I don't currently get these, but I'd like to... -- Best regards, Charles -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
Charles Marcus wrote: On 12/10/2007, Mark Sapiro ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Mailman sends a summary every morning with the From: and Subject: of the held posts waiting moderator action. Where is this option? I don't currently get these, but I'd like to... There is no option for this per se. The option (admin_immed_notify) is to get or not get the per message notices. The daily summary is produced by cron/checkdbs which should run daily at 8:00 a.m. if you have the default Mailman crontab installed. If you aren't getting the summary, either cron isn't running checkdbs or you are so diligent at dealing with held messages that there never are any outstanding when checkdbs runs. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
On 12/10/2007, Mark Sapiro ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: If you aren't getting the summary, either cron isn't running checkdbs or you are so diligent at dealing with held messages that there never are any outstanding when checkdbs runs. Duh... ok, there is no daily cron job for it (I had someone help me get this server set up a long time ago before I was comfortable doing stuff like this myself, and guess he forgot to do this)... Mailman is in the cron group, so according to the Gentoo docs (thats what I'm using), a simple: cd /usr/local/mailman/cron crontab -u mailman crontab.in should do it? Thanks again! -- Best regards, Charles -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
Cyndi Norwitz writes: Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 08:49:30 -0800 From: Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] SpamAssassin is much better integrated in the MTA ahead of Mailman, but if they want to integrate SpamAssassin with Mailman at some point, refer them to http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detailaid=534577group_id=103atid=300103 and http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detailaid=640518group_id=103atid=300103. Many thanks. I have passed this along to my ISP. I thought you earlier wrote that SpamAssassin *is* being run by the ISP, but can't be used with Mailman. If SpamAssassin is installed, I don't understand why you can't use it with Mailman. Lack of spam filtering is not just another feature that might not be provided in today's mail environment; it's a complete loss of service waiting to happen. IMHO YMMV etc, but I strongly advise you be proactive on this. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
On 12/9/07, Cyndi Norwitz wrote: I thought you earlier wrote that SpamAssassin *is* being run by the ISP, Correct. but can't be used with Mailman. No, that they haven't taken the steps to integrate it with MM yet and have no immediate plans to do so. They don't need to. So long as they're running SpamAssassin on their machines and using the standard SpamAssassin tagging feature, you can take advantage of that. You don't need any further help from them on that subject. If SpamAssassin is installed, I don't understand why you can't use it with Mailman. Is there a way *I* can without the ISP doing anything? Yes. Set up your spam filters under Privacy options... then Spam filters. Lack of spam filtering is not just another feature that might not be provided in today's mail environment; it's a complete loss of service waiting to happen. IMHO YMMV etc, but I strongly advise you be proactive on this. I'm working on it. They do have SA for email. So long as the e-mail for your mailing lists are passing through the same servers, then it doesn't matter. At that point, e-mail is e-mail and it doesn't really matter who the sender is or who the recipient(s) is/are. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
Brad Knowles writes: On 12/9/07, Cyndi Norwitz wrote: I thought you earlier wrote that SpamAssassin *is* being run by the ISP, Correct. but can't be used with Mailman. No, that they haven't taken the steps to integrate it with MM yet and have no immediate plans to do so. They don't need to. And don't want to (I'm surprised Brad didn't reemphasize this). If they are running SpamAssassin, you want them to run it in such a way that your MTA can refuse to accept the mail at all. This has the advantages that (1) you (and your Mailman) never see it, which (2) saves your ISP the cost of running Mailman, and (3) in case of a false positive, a real user will see that their mail was bounced and complain to you, and have some useful information for diagnosing why. It's (2) and to some extent (3) that makes this method significantly better than filtering on SpamAssassin headers at the Mailman stage. So long as they're running SpamAssassin on their machines and using the standard SpamAssassin tagging feature, you can take advantage of that. You don't need any further help from them on that subject. Almost. If you worry about false positives, you can ask them to make sure that the spam level header which gives a spamminess rating according to the number of stars (eg, X-Spam-Level: ** is a 10) is enabled. Then you can add a discard filter for ^X-Spam-Level: \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* to your Mailman configuration which nukes all posts with level 10 spamminess or more, and a hold filter to ^X-Spam-Level: \*\*\*\*\* which holds posts with level 5 or more for moderation. Tune the number of stars to fit your experience. This header is on by default, and you can easily check the headers of list mail to see if it's there. If SpamAssassin is installed, I don't understand why you can't use it with Mailman. Is there a way *I* can without the ISP doing anything? Yes. Set up your spam filters under Privacy options... then Spam filters. Lack of spam filtering is not just another feature that might not be provided in today's mail environment; it's a complete loss of service waiting to happen. IMHO YMMV etc, but I strongly advise you be proactive on this. I'm working on it. They do have SA for email. So long as the e-mail for your mailing lists are passing through the same servers, then it doesn't matter. At that point, e-mail is e-mail and it doesn't really matter who the sender is or who the recipient(s) is/are. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/stephen%40xemacs.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
From: Stephen J. Turnbull [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 08:24:32 +0900 Almost. If you worry about false positives, you can ask them to make sure that the spam level header which gives a spamminess rating according to the number of stars (eg, X-Spam-Level: ** is a 10) is enabled. Then you can add a discard filter for ^X-Spam-Level: \*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\*\* to your Mailman configuration which nukes all posts with level 10 spamminess or more, and a hold filter to ^X-Spam-Level: \*\*\*\*\* which holds posts with level 5 or more for moderation. Tune the number of stars to fit your experience. But this isn't useful to me. Oh, I'm sure some of the really bad spam would go away, but this is a health list and so there are *a lot* of false positives because we mention a lot of spam-like keywords. So I'd have to set the spam level pretty high. A couple of months post-migration, I expect that the majority of my list members will be off moderation. Their posts will go through in what amounts to a whitelist. The rest will be moderated. The spam sent to the posting address will be in my moderation window. Mixed with the legit posts. That is the problem. Saying this is spam so I'm sending it to you for moderation is not helpful. The stuff is already in moderation. I also don't want any member's mail that is not moderated to be marked spam and held for moderation. Given the nature of the list, this could easily be 5-10% of all legit posts. I do want the administriva filter on, but that's already working okay. Here's what I want: Subscribers who are unmoderated to be whitelisted. Non-subscribers who I have set to auto-accept to be whitelisted. Potential spam from the moderated box to be sent to my graymail (my ISP's name (or maybe a common name, I don't know) for suspected spam--they send an email each night with the from and subject headers). So, yes, I do want the spam filter to run through Mailman. But I will accept a spam filter from an earlier server if I can whitelist easily, though it won't be very helpful to me. Cyndi -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
Cyndi Norwitz wrote: Yes. Set up your spam filters under Privacy options... then Spam filters. There is nothing called spam filters in privacy options. In the admin interface, there should be four sub-pages under Privacy options... * Subscription rules * Sender filters * Recipient filters * Spam filters If they aren't all there, then this is something sonic.net has done to their installation. My guess is they are different servers, though the posts may pass through the email server at some point. List mail goes to lists.sonic.net, email to sonic.net. Does list mail (received posts) have any SpamAssassin headers, e.g. X-Spam-Status:, X-Spam-Flag:, X-Spam-Level:. If so, you can filter on those with header_filter_rules which is under Spam filters if you have it, but see my reply (to come) to your subsequent post. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 21:21:01 -0800 From: Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cyndi Norwitz wrote: There is nothing called spam filters in privacy options. In the admin interface, there should be four sub-pages under Privacy options... Yeah, duh, somehow I missed that :) Does list mail (received posts) have any SpamAssassin headers, e.g. X-Spam-Status:, X-Spam-Flag:, X-Spam-Level:. Not taht I can see. Here's a sample header from a spam attempted post: Received: from b.mx.sonic.net (b.mx.sonic.net [209.204.159.4]) by listman.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lB56QfhY031208 for lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt;; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:26:41 -0800 Received: from fedmail.FEDMAIL (70.43.123.148.nw.nuvox.net [70.43.123.148]) by b.mx.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lB56Qchx002626 for lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt;; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:26:41 -0800 Message-Id: lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Received: from fedmail (70.43.123.67.nw.nuvox.net [70.43.123.67]) by fedmail.FEDMAIL with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id YFVARF1L; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 01:10:37 -0500 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:10:36 -0500 From: Prime Vendorlt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Hello JAMES FELDMAN To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sonic-SB-IP-RBLs: IP RBLs . Thanks, Cyndi -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
Cyndi Norwitz wrote: The spam sent to the posting address will be in my moderation window. Mixed with the legit posts. That is the problem. Saying this is spam so I'm sending it to you for moderation is not helpful. The stuff is already in moderation. How about rejecting or discarding non-member posts instead of holding them. does that help? Note that there are problems with rejecting spam although Mailman has limits on the number of autoresponses per day to a given user to prevent joe-jobbing. There are also problems with discarding non-member posts if you ever expect to get legitimate messages from non-members, but these are options to consider (generic_nonmember_action = reject or discard). I also don't want any member's mail that is not moderated to be marked spam and held for moderation. Given the nature of the list, this could easily be 5-10% of all legit posts. So you are basically saying that you don't trust any spam filter other than a human, so all this discussion is moot. I do want the administriva filter on, but that's already working okay. Here's what I want: Subscribers who are unmoderated to be whitelisted. Non-subscribers who I have set to auto-accept to be whitelisted. You already have these. Potential spam from the moderated box to be sent to my graymail (my ISP's name (or maybe a common name, I don't know) for suspected spam--they send an email each night with the from and subject headers). Mailman sends a summary every morning with the From: and Subject: of the held posts waiting moderator action. So, yes, I do want the spam filter to run through Mailman. But I will accept a spam filter from an earlier server if I can whitelist easily, though it won't be very helpful to me. Here you have a problem because detecting a flagged post based on header_filter_rules is not sensitive to whether or not the poster is whitelisted (you could make rules for this, but it would be too cumbersome; you'd basically need to list everyone's address in a rule). -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
Ive got it working with spamassassin just fine, It gets spam checked as soon as its received by postfix, then it passes on to the mailman software - where non dropped spam gets checked again I just have X-Spam-Flag: YES = discard (or hold for moderation in some more important lists) in my spam settings and for it not to accept mail from non list members (unless it's a public list) - ontop of that postfix does rbl checks etc and drops most spam now before it even hits spamassassin for checking.. Its worked a treat thus far.. Cheers Spyro -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:mailman-users- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Cyndi Norwitz Sent: Monday, 10 December 2007 4:19 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; mailman-users@python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 21:21:01 -0800 From: Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cyndi Norwitz wrote: There is nothing called spam filters in privacy options. In the admin interface, there should be four sub-pages under Privacy options... Yeah, duh, somehow I missed that :) Does list mail (received posts) have any SpamAssassin headers, e.g. X-Spam-Status:, X-Spam-Flag:, X-Spam-Level:. Not taht I can see. Here's a sample header from a spam attempted post: Received: from b.mx.sonic.net (b.mx.sonic.net [209.204.159.4]) by listman.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lB56QfhY031208 for lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt;; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:26:41 -0800 Received: from fedmail.FEDMAIL (70.43.123.148.nw.nuvox.net [70.43.123.148]) by b.mx.sonic.net (8.13.8.Beta0-Sonic/8.13.7) with ESMTP id lB56Qchx002626 for lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt;; Tue, 4 Dec 2007 22:26:41 -0800 Message-Id: lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Received: from fedmail (70.43.123.67.nw.nuvox.net [70.43.123.67]) by fedmail.FEDMAIL with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2653.13) id YFVARF1L; Wed, 5 Dec 2007 01:10:37 -0500 Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2007 01:10:36 -0500 From: Prime Vendorlt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Hello JAMES FELDMAN To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sonic-SB-IP-RBLs: IP RBLs . Thanks, Cyndi -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman- users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman- users/spyropolymiadis%40kromestudios.com Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw- mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp This message and its attachments may contain legally privileged or confidential information. This message is intended for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you may not copy or deliver this message or its attachments to anyone. Rather, you should permanently delete this message and its attachments and kindly notify the sender by reply e-mail. Any content of this message and its attachments, which does not relate to the official business of the sending company must be taken not to have been sent or endorsed by the sending company or any of its related entities. No warranty is made that the e-mail or attachment(s) are free from computer virus or other defect. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
Cyndi Norwitz wrote: I agree. There is no easy way I see of doing what I want. I guess I need to see what all the options are and play with it for a while and see what my ISP does. So if I understand, you want spam filtering to apply only to non-members who aren't in accept_these_nonmembers. You aren't going to be able to do that unless sonic installs the SpamAssassin patch referred to earlier in this thread or something similar. What that patch allows is setting a SpamAssassin 'hold' score and a SpamAssassin 'discard' score and a member bonus for being a member or in accept_these_nonmembers. If you set the member bonus high enough, no member post would ever be held or discarded. The problem with that is those settings are global, not per-list. The patch could always be modified to make the settings per-list, but that makes it less likely you'd ever see it installed. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
Cyndi Norwitz writes: Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 21:34:45 -0800 From: Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] How about rejecting or discarding non-member posts instead of holding them. does that help? If the spam problem is too great, I may have to disallow non-member posts except for people who write me asking to be put on an approved list. I have several regular posters who are not subscribers by their own choice (their posts are generally newsletters). This kind of poster might best be served by having them subscribe and set their subscription to no-mail. This also is a useful strategy for members with multiple addresses. My preference is to allow non-member posts but moderate them (except for the few I put an auto-allow on). Auto-allow non-members are a good candidate for subscribe-and-no-mail. It could work for the other non-members, depending on how they find out about your list(s). If people's posts are urgent (at least to them), subscribe-and-no-mail is not a great strategy, of course. My lists are like that (bug reports on software), but I've found it to be a tolerable compromise nevertheless. Even people who very rarely post are often happy to to have an easy way to get that free pass (as long as it doesn't mean they get unwanted mail from my lists). No. I said I don't want my unmoderated members to get their posts held due to having keywords that match spam. Spam filters always have false positives. In my experience, SA has a ton of false positives on my list posts. Please be more specific about false positive. If you mean according to the default setting of 5.0 is spam, you might still get rid of a *lot* of spam by raising that to 10.0 without false positives. Yes, that is acceptable, if I can access them. But I don't want spam to be left in my moderation box. How does your graymail work? It sounded to me like it was just another moderation box. Now you have two, as I understand it. This may be a win for you, but I don't see why it would be offhand. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
From: Stephen J. Turnbull [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:44:29 +0900 If the spam problem is too great, I may have to disallow non-member posts except for people who write me asking to be put on an approved list. I have several regular posters who are not subscribers by their own choice (their posts are generally newsletters). This kind of poster might best be served by having them subscribe and set their subscription to no-mail. This also is a useful strategy for members with multiple addresses. This will not work in my situation for more than a certain percentage of my non-member posts. The details aren't important (to this list anyway). No. I said I don't want my unmoderated members to get their posts held due to having keywords that match spam. Spam filters always have false positives. In my experience, SA has a ton of false positives on my list posts. Please be more specific about false positive. If you mean according to the default setting of 5.0 is spam, you might still get rid of a *lot* of spam by raising that to 10.0 without false positives. False positive means it's legit mail that is in my spam folder. Using my ISP's defaults. Yes, that is acceptable, if I can access them. But I don't want spam to be left in my moderation box. How does your graymail work? It sounded to me like it was just another moderation box. Now you have two, as I understand it. This may be a win for you, but I don't see why it would be offhand. Graymail is a list of from addresses and subject headers of every email there. If it's all spam, I scan and ignore. It goes away forever after 7 days (my setting). Anything in moderation for MM must be clicked on. One at a time. 3 clicks per sender (which means per spam most of the time) if I want to set the address to auto-discard and ban the spammer from joining the list, in addition to simply discarding the email. False positives are far easier to deal with in MM moderation than in graymail, but my ISP is about to come out with a better version of graymail that may reduce the workload. Cyndi -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
Cyndi Norwitz writes: This will not work in my situation for more than a certain percentage of my non-member posts. The details aren't important (to this list anyway). Sure, but you're being nibbled to death by mice. Everything that you can offload onto other people is more time for you to spend on the service you want to provide. In my personal experience that works in the sense that a number of people do go to the trouble to save me time, and some even express gratitude for the chance to help. YMMV, of course. False positive means it's legit mail that is in my spam folder. Using my ISP's defaults. Well, those defaults are not well-tuned to your list. (You obviously know they're not working; my point is that there's a very good chance that they can be tuned a *lot* better.) Timing is up to you, but my advice is to get in touch with your ISP early and often and see if they'll give you some access to tuning SA (SpamAssassin) scores for rules that give you a lot of false positives, and to training SA's adaptive filters against a pile of your list mail. BTW, I see that you have checked for SA headers in your list mail and not found them. If they're using something else, a lot of what has been said about SA applies to most filter software to some degree. And if they're not using anything, the sooner they start, the better for everybody. Regards, -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
From: Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 01:53:21 -0600 I was talking about moving just your mailing lists, not all your ISP services. Of course you could link those two if you want, but there are plenty of mailing list only providers that you could at least check out. As I said, I am happy with my ISP and have no plans to move my lists again. If there is no way for me to filter spam, then I will live with it until my ISP is able to fix the problem. Every provider has strengths and weaknesses and I believe it is a poor choice to suddenly switch around simply because there is one feature missing. Another provider will have a different weakness. And most of them will cost money. My lists are free with my account services. Cyndi -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
I was talking about moving just your mailing lists, not all your ISP services. Of course you could link those two if you want, but there are plenty of mailing list only providers that you could at least check out. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent from my iPhone On Dec 8, 2007, at 1:04 AM, Cyndi Norwitz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 00:27:11 -0600 From: Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mailman doesn't have great tools for this. Instead, you should configure your mail server to reject or discard the spam messages before they ever get to Mailman. Any ideas how to do this when your ISP is hosting Mailman? That would be the responsibility of your ISP. If they're not doing their job, then maybe you might want to find a different provider of this particular service. Well, I'm happy with my ISP and have no plans to move *again*. But I will ask them again if they can do it. The reply I got from them was: In the future Sonic.net could integrate SpamAssassin into Mailman but that's not currently on anyones plate. Thanks, Cyndi -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
Cyndi Norwitz wrote: Well, I'm happy with my ISP and have no plans to move *again*. But I will ask them again if they can do it. The reply I got from them was: In the future Sonic.net could integrate SpamAssassin into Mailman but that's not currently on anyones plate. SpamAssassin is much better integrated in the MTA ahead of Mailman, but if they want to integrate SpamAssassin with Mailman at some point, refer them to http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detailaid=534577group_id=103atid=300103 and http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detailaid=640518group_id=103atid=300103. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
Mark Sapiro wrote: if they want to integrate SpamAssassin with Mailman at some point, refer them to http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detailaid=640518group_id=103atid=300103. I can endorse this patch ... I've used it for years and it works great. david -- System i ... for when you can't afford to be out of business -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 08:49:30 -0800 From: Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] SpamAssassin is much better integrated in the MTA ahead of Mailman, but if they want to integrate SpamAssassin with Mailman at some point, refer them to http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detailaid=534577group_id=103atid=300103 and http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detailaid=640518group_id=103atid=300103. Many thanks. I have passed this along to my ISP. Cyndi -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
Hi I am not very sound in mailman configuration. I have a list in which anyone can post. Hold the positing from non members. Now, I am getting everyday about 100s of spam emails in that list. Please advise how to deal with this? Regards, Vinita Aggarwal -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mohamed CHAARI Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 1:12 PM To: Mark Sapiro Cc: mailman-users@python.org Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] running External Archiver on background/foreground Mark Sapiro wrote: Mohamed CHAARI wrote: Mark Sapiro wrote: See http://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2005-August/045994.html. you mentioned, in the thread above (Aug 2005), that it would be better to have a unique temporary file, to avoid conflict problems ... I've tried this, in mm_cfg.py, using unix timestamp PUBLIC_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER = 'cat /var/run/mailman/mail_tmp.$(date +%s); /usr/local/bin/external_arch.pl %(listname)s ' but without success. is there a way to do it ? should I use Python functions to get unix timestamp for current date ? It looks to me as if you have inherited something from Jean-Philippe GIOLA and it is now way more complicated than it needs to be. yes Here are my observations on the above: 1) The name mail_tmp.$(date +%s) may still not be unique. What if two messages arrive to be archived within the same second? 2)How does /usr/local/bin/external_arch.pl determine what file to read? And, if it just picks one, it could be for the wrong list. 3)The reason the above doesn't work at all is mailman interpolates into the PUBLIC_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER string from a dictionary in order to replace %(listname)s with the actual listname, but this interpolation sees the %s date format and replaces it with the entire dictionary. You have to double the % to avoid this. E.g. 'cat /var/run/mailman/mail_tmp.$(date +%%s); /usr/local/bin/external_arch.pl %(listname)s ' ok 4) The normal way to do this is to not bother with the tempfile stuff at all, but rather to just pipe the message to the external archiver as in PUBLIC_EXTERNAL_ARCHIVER = '/usr/local/bin/external_arch.pl %(listname)s' Then external_arch.pl can just read it's standard input for the message. If you do it this way, you can't run it in the background because it won't get standard input from the pipe, but the only reason it might need to run in the background is if it does something which locks the list. which is our case, because of the call to 'arch' I think Jean-Philippe GIOLA was doing these wierd contortions because he wanted both the normal pipermail archive and an external archive, yes this is exactly our requirement but the normal way to do this is to just do normal archiving in Mailman and subscribe an address to the list to do the external archiving. I didn't understand well this solution. can you please explain it, how can a subscriber/address do the external archiving ? Thank you in advance -- --- --Mohamed CHAARI (mailto : [EMAIL PROTECTED]) -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/vinita.aggarwal%40un.or g.in Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
Vinita Aggarwal wrote: I have a list in which anyone can post. Hold the positing from non members. Now, I am getting everyday about 100s of spam emails in that list. Please advise how to deal with this? It is best to start a new topic on a list by creating a new message, not by replying to someone else's post. When you reply to an unrelated post, your post gets threaded in the other topic in the archive and it makes the archive hard to read. Anyway, the answer to your question is install better spam filtering in your MTA. The best thing is to identify spam at incoming SMTP time and don't accept it in the first place. Next best is to accept it but silently discard it in the MTA - do not bounce it to the claimed sender as this is almost certainly forged. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
On 12/7/07, Cyndi Norwitz wrote: Now, I am getting everyday about 100s of spam emails in that list. Please advise how to deal with this? Mailman doesn't have great tools for this. Instead, you should configure your mail server to reject or discard the spam messages before they ever get to Mailman. Any ideas how to do this when your ISP is hosting Mailman? That would be the responsibility of your ISP. If they're not doing their job, then maybe you might want to find a different provider of this particular service. There are multiple different providers of service for Mailman and Mailman-hosted mailing lists linked from FAQ 1.17 at http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showfile=faq01.017.htp. I believe that at least one of those is actually fairly active on the mailman-users mailing list, although I don't have any personal experience with their particular service. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2007 13:35:56 -0600 From: Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] On 12/7/07, Vinita Aggarwal wrote: Now, I am getting everyday about 100s of spam emails in that list. Please advise how to deal with this? Mailman doesn't have great tools for this. Instead, you should configure your mail server to reject or discard the spam messages before they ever get to Mailman. Any ideas how to do this when your ISP is hosting Mailman? As soon as they finish mass subscribing my address list, my domain name list address will be active with MM and it gets HUNDREDS of spams a day. Since I can't run them through SpamAssasin (that my ISP runs) (with majordomo, msgs sent for moderation have MD headers so you can't check for false positives without opening each msg), I use procmail to get rid of the worst of the spam. With the migration, I won't be able to use procmail anymore. And SA won't be an option either. I'll be slowly unmoderating most of my list members but many will have to be on moderation for life. And their posts will be mixed in with all the spam on the web interface. I can ban the spammer's addresses through the interface, and even put some key spam phrases into the interface, but it won't help much. I've asked in my ISP's usenet group for Mailman and got no answers. Cyndi -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2007 00:27:11 -0600 From: Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mailman doesn't have great tools for this. Instead, you should configure your mail server to reject or discard the spam messages before they ever get to Mailman. Any ideas how to do this when your ISP is hosting Mailman? That would be the responsibility of your ISP. If they're not doing their job, then maybe you might want to find a different provider of this particular service. Well, I'm happy with my ISP and have no plans to move *again*. But I will ask them again if they can do it. The reply I got from them was: In the future Sonic.net could integrate SpamAssassin into Mailman but that's not currently on anyones plate. Thanks, Cyndi -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] How to stop spam emails
On 12/7/07, Vinita Aggarwal wrote: Now, I am getting everyday about 100s of spam emails in that list. Please advise how to deal with this? Mailman doesn't have great tools for this. Instead, you should configure your mail server to reject or discard the spam messages before they ever get to Mailman. -- Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED] LinkedIn Profile: http://tinyurl.com/y8kpxu -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
