Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Mark Sapiro]

On 2/14/20 9:11 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> I guess there needs to be a caveat in the documentation indicating
> different distros will need different commands. This project is turning
> into a nightmare since I know nothing about django and they way mailman
> 3 is installed is radically different. Hyperkitty was installed but when
> I run the command it fails.
> 
> # django-admin hyperkitty_import -l rusht...@csdco.com rushtalk.mbox
> No Django settings specified.
> Unknown command: 'hyperkitty_import'
> Type 'django-admin help' for usage.


The django-admin command you are running does not specify PYTHONPATH and
DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE. I use a wrapper command like:

#!/bin/bash
. /opt/mailman/mm/venv/bin/activate
cd /opt/mailman/mm
export PYTHONPATH=/opt/mailman/mm
export DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE=settings
django-admin $@

to activate the virtualenv that Mailman is installed in, set things for
the environment and invoke the actual django-admin command. There may
not be a virtualenv in your case, and you don't know the appropriate
values for PYTHONPATH and DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE.

We don't know these answers. You need to be talking with the people who
installed Mailman on the server.


> I'm also struggling with the web UI which is what prompted my other
> email about where the icons are stored. It almost seems like the web UI
> is just a radically different and does not use Apache in the same way
> any more.


That is true. It is a Django 'project' Django is a wsgi application
which may run under mod_wsgi in Apache or a wsgi server like uwsgi or
gunicorn that is proxied to from apache.

Very little of the detail you know about Mailman 2.1 is relevant to
Mailman 3, particularly where the web server is concerned.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Dennis Putnam]

Hi Mark,

I guess there needs to be a caveat in the documentation indicating
different distros will need different commands. This project is turning
into a nightmare since I know nothing about django and they way mailman
3 is installed is radically different. Hyperkitty was installed but when
I run the command it fails.

# django-admin hyperkitty_import -l rusht...@csdco.com rushtalk.mbox
No Django settings specified.
Unknown command: 'hyperkitty_import'
Type 'django-admin help' for usage.

The last line being of no use.

I'm also struggling with the web UI which is what prompted my other
email about where the icons are stored. It almost seems like the web UI
is just a radically different and does not use Apache in the same way
any more.

On 2/14/2020 11:37 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 2/14/20 7:09 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> Just a little confusing with respect to the documentation which says:
>>
>> python manage.py hyperkitty_import -l foo-l...@example.com 
>> $var_prefix/archives/private/foo-list.mbox/foo-list.mbo
>>
>>
>> So the documentation should say for some installations:
>>
>> django-admin hyperkitty_import -l foo-l...@example.com 
>> $var_prefix/archives/private/foo-list.mbox/foo-list.mbox
>>
>> Is that right?
>
> It is correct that in some installations the command to invoke Django
> may be django-admin. Whether our documentation should cover every
> possible packaging decision made by a packager or installer is a
> separate issue. My opinion is the people who do this
> packaging/installation should provide supplemental documentation where
> appropriate.
>
>
> --
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> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
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> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Mark Sapiro]

On 2/14/20 7:49 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> Another issue with these servers. The admin says 'pip3' was used to
> install mailman. I thought 'pip' was a python installer.


Some distros call pip for Python 3 pip3.

> Unfortunately I
> cannot find where it put the stuff. So the documentation that specifies
> $prefix is of no use since I don't know what that is. This is RHEL so
> does anyone know where things wind up? Specifically I'm looking for all
> the icons to copy to my httpd directory. TIA


And neither can I. I know nothing about any Mailman 3 packages for RHEL
nor do I know what decisions the packager/installer made. You can find
information about Mailman core with

mailman info --verbose

This will tell you about Mailman Core, but not Django (Hyperkitty and
Postorius). For those, if you look at the django-admin command, it will
probably set PYTHONPATH and DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE. The name of the
DJANGO_SETTINGS_MODULE with a .py extension added is a file in
PYTHONPATH which contains the base settings for Hyperkitty and Postorius
and it probably also imports a local settings module (.py file) that
contains local overrides.

If Mailman was installed in a virtualenv, most software things will be
in that virtualenv in places like bin/ and lib/python.x.y/site-packages

What documentation are you looking at? Nothing I know of for Mailman 3
mentions $prefix or icons to be copied to your web server.

I am very confused over what you are trying to do. On the one hand, you
appear to be migrating lists to a server with Mailman 3 already
installed, and on the other you are asking about things that only an
installer should be concerned with

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Mark Sapiro]

On 2/14/20 7:09 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> Just a little confusing with respect to the documentation which says:
> 
> python manage.py hyperkitty_import -l foo-l...@example.com 
> $var_prefix/archives/private/foo-list.mbox/foo-list.mbo
> 
> 
> So the documentation should say for some installations:
> 
> django-admin hyperkitty_import -l foo-l...@example.com 
> $var_prefix/archives/private/foo-list.mbox/foo-list.mbox
> 
> Is that right?


It is correct that in some installations the command to invoke Django
may be django-admin. Whether our documentation should cover every
possible packaging decision made by a packager or installer is a
separate issue. My opinion is the people who do this
packaging/installation should provide supplemental documentation where
appropriate.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Dennis Putnam]

Hi Mark,

Another issue with these servers. The admin says 'pip3' was used to
install mailman. I thought 'pip' was a python installer. Unfortunately I
cannot find where it put the stuff. So the documentation that specifies
$prefix is of no use since I don't know what that is. This is RHEL so
does anyone know where things wind up? Specifically I'm looking for all
the icons to copy to my httpd directory. TIA

On 2/13/2020 3:40 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 2/13/20 11:36 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> Sorry for being a PITA but I can't find manage.py. Indeed I can't find
>> any mailman files other than in /opt/mailman which has no /bin.
>> Apparently version 3 uses different directories than what I've been
>> using (/usr/lib/Mailman and /var/lib/mailman).
> It's probably not called manage.py in your installation. In a 'default'
> Django install, manage.py is the name of the Django administratitve
> command. In your case, it could be called django-admin or something else
> depending on how Postorius/HyperKitty were installed.
>
>
> --
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> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Dennis Putnam]

Hi Mark,

Just a little confusing with respect to the documentation which says:

python manage.py hyperkitty_import -l foo-l...@example.com 
$var_prefix/archives/private/foo-list.mbox/foo-list.mbo


So the documentation should say for some installations:

django-admin hyperkitty_import -l foo-l...@example.com 
$var_prefix/archives/private/foo-list.mbox/foo-list.mbox

Is that right?

On 2/13/2020 3:40 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 2/13/20 11:36 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> Sorry for being a PITA but I can't find manage.py. Indeed I can't find
>> any mailman files other than in /opt/mailman which has no /bin.
>> Apparently version 3 uses different directories than what I've been
>> using (/usr/lib/Mailman and /var/lib/mailman).
>
> It's probably not called manage.py in your installation. In a 'default'
> Django install, manage.py is the name of the Django administratitve
> command. In your case, it could be called django-admin or something else
> depending on how Postorius/HyperKitty were installed.
>
>
> --
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security Policy: http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9
> Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Mark Sapiro]

On 2/13/20 11:36 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> Sorry for being a PITA but I can't find manage.py. Indeed I can't find
> any mailman files other than in /opt/mailman which has no /bin.
> Apparently version 3 uses different directories than what I've been
> using (/usr/lib/Mailman and /var/lib/mailman).


It's probably not called manage.py in your installation. In a 'default'
Django install, manage.py is the name of the Django administratitve
command. In your case, it could be called django-admin or something else
depending on how Postorius/HyperKitty were installed.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Dennis Putnam]

Hi Mark,

Sorry for being a PITA but I can't find manage.py. Indeed I can't find
any mailman files other than in /opt/mailman which has no /bin.
Apparently version 3 uses different directories than what I've been
using (/usr/lib/Mailman and /var/lib/mailman).



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Dennis Putnam]

Hi Mark,

For some reason the first 'create' didn't work even though it said
successful. The 2nd on did and the import worked.

On 2/13/2020 12:09 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 2/13/20 8:40 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> I'm stuck on the 2nd step.
>>
>> I did:
>>
>> mailman create rusht...@csdco.com
>>
>> Got no errors.
> Good.
>> I'm on the new server, copied the pickle file from the old server to the
>> current directory and used the command:
>>
>> mailman import21 rusht...@csdco.com config.pck
>>
>> I get: Error: No such list: rusht...@csdco.com
>>
>> Apparently I don't know what to use for the LISTSPEC. The specified
>> address is how we send messages to the list. I also tried the FQDN and
>> got the same error.
>
> It should work with either rusht...@csdco.com or rushtalk.csdco.com. Are
> you sure you didn't spell it differently on the create? What does
>
> mailman lists
>
> give?
>
>
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Mark Sapiro]

On 2/13/20 8:40 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> I'm stuck on the 2nd step.
> 
> I did:
> 
> mailman create rusht...@csdco.com
> 
> Got no errors.

Good.
> 
> I'm on the new server, copied the pickle file from the old server to the
> current directory and used the command:
> 
> mailman import21 rusht...@csdco.com config.pck
> 
> I get: Error: No such list: rusht...@csdco.com
> 
> Apparently I don't know what to use for the LISTSPEC. The specified
> address is how we send messages to the list. I also tried the FQDN and
> got the same error.


It should work with either rusht...@csdco.com or rushtalk.csdco.com. Are
you sure you didn't spell it differently on the create? What does

mailman lists

give?

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Dennis Putnam]

Hi Mark,

I'm stuck on the 2nd step.

I did:

mailman create rusht...@csdco.com

Got no errors.

I'm on the new server, copied the pickle file from the old server to the
current directory and used the command:

mailman import21 rusht...@csdco.com config.pck

I get: Error: No such list: rusht...@csdco.com

Apparently I don't know what to use for the LISTSPEC. The specified
address is how we send messages to the list. I also tried the FQDN and
got the same error.

On 2/13/2020 11:14 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 2/13/20 3:17 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> I've been thrown into this so I am unfamiliar with these servers (not my
>> own that I usually deal with). Anyway, as I unravel things I'm working
>> with, I see that I am really running version 2.1.9. As I understand it,
>> the DMARC mitigation was not added until 2.1.18. So I think using
>> import21 should work, right?
>
> Yes, import21 will work with a 2.1.9 config.pck. And yes, there are no
> DMARC mitigations in that version.
>
>
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Mark Sapiro]

On 2/13/20 3:17 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> I've been thrown into this so I am unfamiliar with these servers (not my
> own that I usually deal with). Anyway, as I unravel things I'm working
> with, I see that I am really running version 2.1.9. As I understand it,
> the DMARC mitigation was not added until 2.1.18. So I think using
> import21 should work, right?


Yes, import21 will work with a 2.1.9 config.pck. And yes, there are no
DMARC mitigations in that version.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Dennis Putnam]

Hi Mark,

I've been thrown into this so I am unfamiliar with these servers (not my
own that I usually deal with). Anyway, as I unravel things I'm working
with, I see that I am really running version 2.1.9. As I understand it,
the DMARC mitigation was not added until 2.1.18. So I think using
import21 should work, right?

On 2/12/2020 12:51 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 2/12/20 9:06 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> We finally got the networking folks to cooperate so DNS is the way we
>> will go. I don't know if it makes any difference but the version was a
>> typo, we are at 2.0.x.
> If you really mean your current Mailman is 2.0.x, trying to import to MM
> 3 with `mailman import21` will likely result in a mess. See the
> UPGRADING FROM 2.0.x to 2.1 section at
> 
>
>> Please see embedded comments.
>>
>>> Import the Mailman 2.1 config.pck with `mailman import21`
>> Easy enough assuming I copy config.pck to the new server to run the command.
> Yes.
>
>
>>> Import the Mailman 2.1 archives/private/xxx.mbox/zzz.mbox mailbox with
>>> the Django Admin hyperkitty_import command.
>> I'm not familiar with that. I am guessing, similar to config.pck, I copy
>> that directory to the new server then run that command on that
>> directory. I'll have to install Django.
>
> The Mailman 2.1 archives/private/xxx.mbox/zzz.mbox mailbox is a file,
> not a directory. It is the cumulative mailbox containing all the 'zzz'
> list's archived messages.
>
> A complete Mailman 3 installation will include Postorius and HyperKitty
> and Django to support them. Postorius is the web management UI for
> Mailman. HyperKitty is the archiver. If you don't have that installed,
> there's nothing to import the archives to.
>
>
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Mark Sapiro]

On 2/12/20 9:06 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> We finally got the networking folks to cooperate so DNS is the way we
> will go. I don't know if it makes any difference but the version was a
> typo, we are at 2.0.x.

If you really mean your current Mailman is 2.0.x, trying to import to MM
3 with `mailman import21` will likely result in a mess. See the
UPGRADING FROM 2.0.x to 2.1 section at


> Please see embedded comments.
> 
>> Import the Mailman 2.1 config.pck with `mailman import21`
> Easy enough assuming I copy config.pck to the new server to run the command.

Yes.


>> Import the Mailman 2.1 archives/private/xxx.mbox/zzz.mbox mailbox with
>> the Django Admin hyperkitty_import command.
> I'm not familiar with that. I am guessing, similar to config.pck, I copy
> that directory to the new server then run that command on that
> directory. I'll have to install Django.


The Mailman 2.1 archives/private/xxx.mbox/zzz.mbox mailbox is a file,
not a directory. It is the cumulative mailbox containing all the 'zzz'
list's archived messages.

A complete Mailman 3 installation will include Postorius and HyperKitty
and Django to support them. Postorius is the web management UI for
Mailman. HyperKitty is the archiver. If you don't have that installed,
there's nothing to import the archives to.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Dennis Putnam]

Hi Mark,

We finally got the networking folks to cooperate so DNS is the way we
will go. I don't know if it makes any difference but the version was a
typo, we are at 2.0.x.

Please see embedded comments.

On 2/12/2020 11:42 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 2/12/20 6:06 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> Hi Mark,
>>
>> Those are the ones I have been reading. I guess what I need to do is a
>> little more complicated than I posted. The old server is running v 2.1
>> and we are running into DEMARC issues. Since we need to upgrade anyway
>> we have upgraded a new server to the latest RHEL version and mailman
>> 3.3. Once we migrate the lists to the new server we just want the users
>> to message the same email addresses as before which is why I questioned
>> those instructions. Since we don't have access to change DNS it seems
>> the easiest thing to do is change their hostnames and IP addresses. If
>> there is a better way I am interested.
>
> All the instructions/advice for moving lists are about moving from one
> Mailman 2.1 installation to another. Migrating lists from Mailman 2.1 to
> Mailman 3 is totally different. For that, you need a working Mailman 3
> installation. You migrate Mailman 2.1 lists roughly as follows:
>
> Create the Mailman 3 list with `mailman create`
No problem there.
> Import the Mailman 2.1 config.pck with `mailman import21`
Easy enough assuming I copy config.pck to the new server to run the command.
> Import the Mailman 2.1 archives/private/xxx.mbox/zzz.mbox mailbox with
> the Django Admin hyperkitty_import command.
I'm not familiar with that. I am guessing, similar to config.pck, I copy
that directory to the new server then run that command on that
directory. I'll have to install Django.
>
> I'm a bit confused about the rest of what you want to do. First, I don't
> know what your DMARC issues might be with your current lists, but if
> your Mailman 2.1 installation is relatively recent, there is essentially
> no difference in DMARC mitigations between that and Mailman 3.3.
>
> Then, your OP said you wanted users to be able to mail to the list at
> listn...@oldserver.domain.com. If you don't control DNS, you apparently
> can't make the MX for oldserver.domain.com point to the new server, so
> the only way to accomplish this would be to maintain the old server and
> create aliases there (or change the existing Mailman aliases) to send
> all the mail to listname(-*)@oldserver.domain.com to the corresponding
> listname(-*)@newserver.domain.com address and also make
> listn...@oldserver.domain.com an acceptable alias of
> thelistn...@newserver.domain.com list.
>
>
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> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Carl Zwanzig]

On 2/12/2020 6:06 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:

Since we don't have access to change DNS it seems
the easiest thing to do is change their hostnames and IP addresses. If
there is a better way I am interested.


It's not a better-or-worse choice, it's the _only_ choice. If the users are 
sending to the server at asdf.domain.tld, you have to make the server answer 
to that IP (which means the name resolves to the IP and the server answers 
the connection).


Later,

z!
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Mark Sapiro]

On 2/12/20 6:06 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> Hi Mark,
> 
> Those are the ones I have been reading. I guess what I need to do is a
> little more complicated than I posted. The old server is running v 2.1
> and we are running into DEMARC issues. Since we need to upgrade anyway
> we have upgraded a new server to the latest RHEL version and mailman
> 3.3. Once we migrate the lists to the new server we just want the users
> to message the same email addresses as before which is why I questioned
> those instructions. Since we don't have access to change DNS it seems
> the easiest thing to do is change their hostnames and IP addresses. If
> there is a better way I am interested.


All the instructions/advice for moving lists are about moving from one
Mailman 2.1 installation to another. Migrating lists from Mailman 2.1 to
Mailman 3 is totally different. For that, you need a working Mailman 3
installation. You migrate Mailman 2.1 lists roughly as follows:

Create the Mailman 3 list with `mailman create`
Import the Mailman 2.1 config.pck with `mailman import21`
Import the Mailman 2.1 archives/private/xxx.mbox/zzz.mbox mailbox with
the Django Admin hyperkitty_import command.

I'm a bit confused about the rest of what you want to do. First, I don't
know what your DMARC issues might be with your current lists, but if
your Mailman 2.1 installation is relatively recent, there is essentially
no difference in DMARC mitigations between that and Mailman 3.3.

Then, your OP said you wanted users to be able to mail to the list at
listn...@oldserver.domain.com. If you don't control DNS, you apparently
can't make the MX for oldserver.domain.com point to the new server, so
the only way to accomplish this would be to maintain the old server and
create aliases there (or change the existing Mailman aliases) to send
all the mail to listname(-*)@oldserver.domain.com to the corresponding
listname(-*)@newserver.domain.com address and also make
listn...@oldserver.domain.com an acceptable alias of
thelistn...@newserver.domain.com list.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Dennis Putnam]

Hi Mark,

Those are the ones I have been reading. I guess what I need to do is a
little more complicated than I posted. The old server is running v 2.1
and we are running into DEMARC issues. Since we need to upgrade anyway
we have upgraded a new server to the latest RHEL version and mailman
3.3. Once we migrate the lists to the new server we just want the users
to message the same email addresses as before which is why I questioned
those instructions. Since we don't have access to change DNS it seems
the easiest thing to do is change their hostnames and IP addresses. If
there is a better way I am interested.

On 2/11/2020 3:51 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 2/11/20 11:42 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
>> I've been reading up on migrating to a new server but I'm not sure I am
>> reading the right instructions. It seems that copying the lists to the
>> new server is one thing but it appears that the end result means the
>> users will have to use a new list server. That is, if users were
>> emailing listn...@oldserver.domain.com they will now have to email
>> listn...@newserver.domain.com. That is not what I want. After migrating
>> to the new server I want users to still email
>> listn...@oldserver.domain.com. I expect to simply rename the new server
>> to the old hostname and change its IP address. Can someone point me to
>> some documentation that does that type migration? TIA.
>
> This is dead simple.
>
> Have you seen , in particular, the two
> archived posts linked from the first paragraph.
>
> In any case, there are details depending on things like whether you want
> to upgrade/change configurations, but I will assume that this is just a
> matter of replacing a server and not changing Mailman.
>
> In that case, you just rsync almost all of Mailman to the new server.
> What I did when I did this last December is:
>
>> rsync -a --exclude /locks /var/lib/mailman/ 
>> r...@new.example.com:/var/lib/mailman
>> rsync -a --exclude *pid --exclude /locks /opt/mailman/mm/var/ 
>> r...@new.example.com:/opt/mailman/mm/var
> Depending on your installation, you may have only one directory for
> $prefix and $var_prefix. You may also have stuff in /etc/mailman.
>
> You also have to copy Mailman's crontab and the relevant web server and
> mail server configuration.
>
> You need to set TTL a day or so in advance on your DNS records that
> point to the old IP to a very short time, 300 seconds maybe even less if
> you can.
>
> Then you stop the services on the old server, change DNS to point to the
> dew IP, do the final rsyncs, and start the services on the new server,
> and you're done.
>
>
> --
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> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Dennis Putnam]

Hi Robert,

Thanks for the reply. I have no access to DNS which is why the old
server needs to be shutdown and the new server renamed the same as the
old server and the IP address changed to match. I have root access to
the mailman server. I'll reply to Mark's message with more detail.

On 2/11/2020 3:50 PM, Robert Heller wrote:
> At Tue, 11 Feb 2020 14:42:15 -0500 Dennis Putnam  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Content-Language: en-US
>>
>> I've been reading up on migrating to a new server but I'm not sure I am
>> reading the right instructions. It seems that copying the lists to the
>> new server is one thing but it appears that the end result means the
>> users will have to use a new list server. That is, if users were
>> emailing listn...@oldserver.domain.com they will now have to email
>> listn...@newserver.domain.com. That is not what I want. After migrating
>> to the new server I want users to still email
>> listn...@oldserver.domain.com. I expect to simply rename the new server
>> to the old hostname and change its IP address. Can someone point me to
>> some documentation that does that type migration? TIA.
> You don't "name" (or rename) the server.  You update the DNS server to use 
> the 
> new server's IP address for the old hostname.  How you update the DNS server 
> greatly depends on exactly what sort of access you have to the DNS server.
>
> It also depends on what level of access you have to the server(s).  Are these 
> VPSs? Physical server boxes?  Are you just swapping physical hardware?  If 
> you 
> are swapping *physical hardware*, then you could, once the files are copied 
> and everything is working (eg you have tested things as 
> newserver.domain.com), 
> you could shutdown the original oldserver.domain.com, and then reconfigure 
> newserver.domain.com's IP address to be what oldserver.domain.com was.  In 
> that case, there is no need to mess with the DNS server. (You might need to 
> mess with a DHCP server, depending on how IP addresses are set up.)
>
> In order to point you in the right direction, you need to tell us more...
>
>> Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
>>
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>>
>> iF0EARECAB0WIQTebsbo9TQsIuOkbg/9+JZipna1VAUCXkMDmAAKCRD9+JZipna1
>> VGajAKDxxI26C50i0+eKII1m8vtNZeuBowCdEXAqTWrPLMx742cnqMIdBBfKYc4=
>> =5/6h
>> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>>
>> MIME-Version: 1.0
>>
>> --
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>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
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>> Unsubscribe: 
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/heller%40deepsoft.com
>>
>> 




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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Robert Heller]

At Tue, 11 Feb 2020 14:42:15 -0500 Dennis Putnam  wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> Content-Language: en-US
> 
> I've been reading up on migrating to a new server but I'm not sure I am
> reading the right instructions. It seems that copying the lists to the
> new server is one thing but it appears that the end result means the
> users will have to use a new list server. That is, if users were
> emailing listn...@oldserver.domain.com they will now have to email
> listn...@newserver.domain.com. That is not what I want. After migrating
> to the new server I want users to still email
> listn...@oldserver.domain.com. I expect to simply rename the new server
> to the old hostname and change its IP address. Can someone point me to
> some documentation that does that type migration? TIA.

You don't "name" (or rename) the server.  You update the DNS server to use the 
new server's IP address for the old hostname.  How you update the DNS server 
greatly depends on exactly what sort of access you have to the DNS server.

It also depends on what level of access you have to the server(s).  Are these 
VPSs? Physical server boxes?  Are you just swapping physical hardware?  If you 
are swapping *physical hardware*, then you could, once the files are copied 
and everything is working (eg you have tested things as newserver.domain.com), 
you could shutdown the original oldserver.domain.com, and then reconfigure 
newserver.domain.com's IP address to be what oldserver.domain.com was.  In 
that case, there is no need to mess with the DNS server. (You might need to 
mess with a DHCP server, depending on how IP addresses are set up.)

In order to point you in the right direction, you need to tell us more...

> 
> Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
> iF0EARECAB0WIQTebsbo9TQsIuOkbg/9+JZipna1VAUCXkMDmAAKCRD9+JZipna1
> VGajAKDxxI26C50i0+eKII1m8vtNZeuBowCdEXAqTWrPLMx742cnqMIdBBfKYc4=
> =5/6h
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> 
> --
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> 
> 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration

[Mark Sapiro]

On 2/11/20 11:42 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:
> I've been reading up on migrating to a new server but I'm not sure I am
> reading the right instructions. It seems that copying the lists to the
> new server is one thing but it appears that the end result means the
> users will have to use a new list server. That is, if users were
> emailing listn...@oldserver.domain.com they will now have to email
> listn...@newserver.domain.com. That is not what I want. After migrating
> to the new server I want users to still email
> listn...@oldserver.domain.com. I expect to simply rename the new server
> to the old hostname and change its IP address. Can someone point me to
> some documentation that does that type migration? TIA.


This is dead simple.

Have you seen , in particular, the two
archived posts linked from the first paragraph.

In any case, there are details depending on things like whether you want
to upgrade/change configurations, but I will assume that this is just a
matter of replacing a server and not changing Mailman.

In that case, you just rsync almost all of Mailman to the new server.
What I did when I did this last December is:

> rsync -a --exclude /locks /var/lib/mailman/ 
> r...@new.example.com:/var/lib/mailman
> rsync -a --exclude *pid --exclude /locks /opt/mailman/mm/var/ 
> r...@new.example.com:/opt/mailman/mm/var

Depending on your installation, you may have only one directory for
$prefix and $var_prefix. You may also have stuff in /etc/mailman.

You also have to copy Mailman's crontab and the relevant web server and
mail server configuration.

You need to set TTL a day or so in advance on your DNS records that
point to the old IP to a very short time, 300 seconds maybe even less if
you can.

Then you stop the services on the old server, change DNS to point to the
dew IP, do the final rsyncs, and start the services on the new server,
and you're done.

-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration Issue -- Only Some Members Receive Email?

[Mark Sapiro]

On 03/09/2017 08:20 AM, Greg Sims wrote:
> 
> I have an issue and have run out of ideas.
> 
> [root@ray06 log]# cat /var/log/maillog.processed /var/log/maillog | grep
> 'Mar  9' | grep status=sent | wc
>6176  109377 1554218
> 
> The above looks at our maillogs for email that was sent on Mar 9.  The
> answer is 6,176 emails sent.  We have over 20,000 subscribers total on our
> three mailman lists.  It appears that only some of the subscribers are
> receiving email.


What's in Mailman's 'smtp' log? I.e. in the

 smtp to listname for  recips, completed ...

entries is  the expected number? If it is, this is not a Mailman
issue per se. It is an MTA/mail delivery issue.

Also, if Mailman is chunking recipients (delivering to the MTA with more
that one recipient per transaction), the MTA may also be delivering to
recipient MXs with more than one recipient per transaction so one
'status=sent' might be a delivery for more than one recipient. See the
post at

for some insight on this.


> I also looked at this from the perspective of one ISP -- gmail.com.
> 
> [root@ray06 email]# cat /var/log/maillog.processed /var/log/maillog | grep
> 'Mar  9' | grep status=sent | grep gmail.com | wc
> 976   18544  254501
> [root@ray06 email]# sudo /usr/lib/mailman/bin/list_members english-devotion
> | grep gmail.com | wc
>49454945  110190
> 
> The maillogs show 976 gmail.com emails sent while one of our lists has
> 4,945 gmail.com members.  Again it appears that only some members are
> receiving email.


Counts of "missing" messages indicate that there is a problem but give
no clue as to what the problem might be.

What are a few of the status log messages for the ones that weren't
status=sent? Are they 'bounced' or 'deferred' and what is the server's
response?.

If the migration involved a new IP, large ISPs that are suddenly
receiving lots of mail from a previously unknown IP may be applying
throttling or greylisting.

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration (and archive repair)

[Brian Hechinger]

On Thu, Jun 14, 2007 at 05:03:29PM -0700, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> 
> The directories you need to rsync are Mailman's lists/ and
> archives/private/ directories. If you're concerned about held

Ok, good, that's easy enough.

> messages, you can also do the data/ directory, but it may be better to
> approve/reject/discard any held messages during the final switchover
> after stopping the MTA and before the final rsync.

Most people don't bother cleaning out there held messages.  This will be
a good chance to get rid of those. :)

> When you're ready to do the final switchover, shut down the incoming
> MTA on the old box, wait for Mailman to process all its queues, do the
> rsync and finally change DNS or whatever to have the new box take over.

Yeah, this part is the portion I'm comforable with, just didn't know what
exactly should be copied over.

> First, is the list's Archiving Options->archive set to Yes?
> 
> Are some lists being archived? If so, good, but if not, is ArchRunner
> running (ps -fAw | grep qrunner)?

Archives work for all lists.  Archives worked fine up until the previous
mailing list admin (actually a desktop fellow who was new to linux, yay)
did his "magic".

> What's in Mailman's error log?

Ah ha!  He made the mbox files owned by root, not mailman.  ooops!

-brian
-- 
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In the hands of a skilled artisan, it can and does happen; it's just
that most of the shit out there is built by people who'd be better
suited to making sure that my burger is cooked thoroughly."  -- Jonathan 
Patschke
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server Migration (and archive repair)

[Mark Sapiro]

Brian Hechinger wrote:

>I need to build a new mailman server.  What is the best/easiest way to
>migrate lists (and their archives) to the new machine?  Something that
>used rsync would be nice so I could keep things as up to date as possible
>and then do a final rsync right before the migration.


The directories you need to rsync are Mailman's lists/ and
archives/private/ directories. If you're concerned about held
messages, you can also do the data/ directory, but it may be better to
approve/reject/discard any held messages during the final switchover
after stopping the MTA and before the final rsync.

When you're ready to do the final switchover, shut down the incoming
MTA on the old box, wait for Mailman to process all its queues, do the
rsync and finally change DNS or whatever to have the new box take over.

>The other thing is, a previous admin tried to clear out the archives for
>a couple of lists, and now the new messages are no longer archived.  How
>do I repair these broken archives?


First, is the list's Archiving Options->archive set to Yes?

Are some lists being archived? If so, good, but if not, is ArchRunner
running (ps -fAw | grep qrunner)?

What's in Mailman's error log?

-- 
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San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server migration problems

[Ivan Van Laningham]

Hi All--

On 4/27/07, Aaron Crosman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Apache's error log:
> [Fri Apr 27 11:42:14 2007] [error] [client 172.17.201.205] Symbolic link
> not allowed or link target not accessible:
> /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/itd_test, referer:
> http://server.org/mailman/listinfo/itd_test
>
> I can't browse the file system (in bash) to those directories.  I did
> double check the links in public as root, and they do work just fine, so
> I'm at a permissions problem.  What should the perms here be?  Or am I
> missing something else?
>

Unless I'm missing something, this is an Apache configuration problem.
 It both has to know about the mailman directories and be allowed to
follow symbolic links.  Permissions have to be correct yes, but if
Apache can't follow links then the permissions are moot.  Include this
directive in your httpd.conf file:

Options FollowSymLinks

You must provide it for any directory you need to put symlinks in.  For example:

Alias /icons/ "/usr/share/apache2/icons/"

Options FollowSymLinks
blah blah blah ...


Of course, the directories listed in httpd.conf are dependent on your
*nix, as is the location (and name) of the httpd.conf file.

Metta,
Ivan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server migration problems

[Aaron Crosman]

> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Sapiro [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 10:31 PM
> To: Aaron Crosman; mailman-users@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Server migration problems
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message ---
> 
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server migration problems
>From: "Aaron Crosman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:22:19 -0400
>  To: 
> 
> >I know this comes up all the time, but having carefully reviewed the
> FAQ
> >and archives, I still haven't been able to solve my problem.
> >
> >
> >
> >I'm working on migrating my mailman setup from an old SuSE server to
a
> >new Debian (4.0) server.  For the most part everything has gone
> >smoothly, but the existing lists have a couple of problems I can't
> find
> >the cause.  I  moved the lists, archive, and data directories from
the
> >old server, and ran update, check_perms and check_db on all the
lists.
> >
> >
> >
> >If I run list_lists, mailman sees all the lists just fine, but when
> just
> >the web interface I don't see anything.  I naturally assumed that had
> >somehow become private during the move, so I exported the
> configuration
> >of one of them, and saw "advertised = True" and while I know in
python
> >it shouldn't matter, I went ahead and updated it to be "advertised =
> 1",
> >no difference.  If I browse to the list's admin interface directly it
> >seems to work.
> 
> 
> This certainly seems like FAQ 4.62 to me
>
<http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=show&file=faq04.062.htp>.
> Have you run fix_url?
> 
> 
> >I'm also having trouble getting into the archives.  The files are
> there,
> >and the sym-links are correct but the permissions seem to be wrong.
> 
> 
> And what are they? And what's in the web server's error log?
> 
> 
> >I'm
> >assuming I'm having a problem similar to the advertising (that mm
> seems
> >to be over-tightening permissions somewhat), but I can't find the
root
> >cause.  Any suggestions on where to look?
> 
> 
> Look at the permissions and whether the web server is allowed to
follow
> symlinks, and if all that is OK, it might be a SeLinux or other kind
> of security polict issue.
> 
> --
> Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

Thanks, you were right on about the domain problem.  I looked right
passed it, since the server will end up at the same domain, but
currently I'm accessing by IP address (I hosts file update on my local
machine solved that problem).

The archives problem persists.  You gave me the right place to look here
as well.  The archives are all owned by list (group list), but the
private archives have restricted access that blocks other users from
getting in:  
ls of /var/lib/mailman/archives:
drwxrws--- 200 list list 8.0K 2007-04-25 14:26 private
drwxrwsr-x   2 list list 4.0K 2007-04-25 14:23 public

A sample from the private directory is:
drwxrwsr-x  4 list list 4.0K 2007-04-25 14:18 itd_test

Apache's error log:
[Fri Apr 27 11:42:14 2007] [error] [client 172.17.201.205] Symbolic link
not allowed or link target not accessible:
/var/lib/mailman/archives/public/itd_test, referer:
http://server.org/mailman/listinfo/itd_test

I can't browse the file system (in bash) to those directories.  I did
double check the links in public as root, and they do work just fine, so
I'm at a permissions problem.  What should the perms here be?  Or am I
missing something else?

Aaron

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server migration problems

[Mark Sapiro]

Aaron Crosman wrote:
>
>The archives problem persists.  You gave me the right place to look here
>as well.  The archives are all owned by list (group list), but the
>private archives have restricted access that blocks other users from
>getting in:
>ls of /var/lib/mailman/archives:
>drwxrws--- 200 list list 8.0K 2007-04-25 14:26 private
>drwxrwsr-x   2 list list 4.0K 2007-04-25 14:23 public


I think this is OS dependent, but in most cases, permissions on
archives/private need to be 'drwxrws--x'. It is the o+x that is
critical for public archive access.

archives/public/listname is a symlink to archives/private/listname, and
archives/private/listname is world readable, but it still can't be
accessed by others, at least in most *nix flavors, unless
archives/private/ is world searchable.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server migration problems

[Mark Sapiro]

- Original Message ---

Subject: [Mailman-Users] Server migration problems
   From: "Aaron Crosman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
   Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2007 14:22:19 -0400
 To: 

>I know this comes up all the time, but having carefully reviewed the FAQ
>and archives, I still haven't been able to solve my problem.
>
> 
>
>I'm working on migrating my mailman setup from an old SuSE server to a
>new Debian (4.0) server.  For the most part everything has gone
>smoothly, but the existing lists have a couple of problems I can't find
>the cause.  I  moved the lists, archive, and data directories from the
>old server, and ran update, check_perms and check_db on all the lists.
>
> 
>
>If I run list_lists, mailman sees all the lists just fine, but when just
>the web interface I don't see anything.  I naturally assumed that had
>somehow become private during the move, so I exported the configuration
>of one of them, and saw "advertised = True" and while I know in python
>it shouldn't matter, I went ahead and updated it to be "advertised = 1",
>no difference.  If I browse to the list's admin interface directly it
>seems to work.


This certainly seems like FAQ 4.62 to me
.
Have you run fix_url?


>I'm also having trouble getting into the archives.  The files are there,
>and the sym-links are correct but the permissions seem to be wrong.


And what are they? And what's in the web server's error log?


>I'm
>assuming I'm having a problem similar to the advertising (that mm seems
>to be over-tightening permissions somewhat), but I can't find the root
>cause.  Any suggestions on where to look?


Look at the permissions and whether the web server is allowed to follow
symlinks, and if all that is OK, it might be a SeLinux or other kind
of security polict issue.

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server migration question

[Steve Burling]

--On March 19, 2007 6:19:00 PM -0700 Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Presumably the new installation is a 2.1.x installation, not 2.0.x, so
> you can't just move the queue entries because they're not compatible
> (in 2.1 there is a single .pck file per msg as opposed to the 2.0 .db
> and .msg files). IIRC, the incoming message is plain text in the .msg
> file, so using bin/inject on the new system to inject these into the
> 'in' queue for the list, although tedious, may be easier than anything
> else. (with luck, the list is an addressee so you can get that from
> the .msg without having to get it from the metadata in the associated
> .db).

To which I reply:

It's interesting -- the old installation was a 2.1.4 install, so I don't 
know there are both a .db and a .msg file for each message.

At any rate, when I looked just now, there were 150 pairs of .db and .msg 
files, and all but one had been flagged as SPAM, so I used bin/inject with 
the one .msg file, and sh*t-canned the rest of the files.

Thanks for the confirmation that that was what I needed to do.

-- 
Steve Burling
University of Michigan, ICPSRVoice: +1 734 615.3779
330 Packard Street   FAX:   +1 734 647.8700
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server migration question

[Mark Sapiro]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>The esteemed Steve Burling has said:
>> 
>> So, we pretty much successfully moved our mailman installation from the old 
>> Solaris box to the new Red Hat box.
>> 
>> Only one small problem.  Of course.
>> 
>> We (and by we, I mean me) had failed to reduce the TTL for the MX record 
>> that points to our mail server, which is now on a new machine.  So some 
>> mailman mail is still being delivered to the old machine.  I've stopped the 
>> qrunners on that machine, so things are just piling up in the qfiles/in 
>> directory.
>> 
>This is something to handle in your MTA.  I assume, since you specify
>Solaris as the old machine, that you were running Sendmail on it.  
>
>Remove the aliases that pipe to the mail list, and set up something
>like mailtertable to ship them to the new host.  


That will do for the messages that arrive subsequent to making that
change. There is still the problem of the already queued messages.

Presumably the new installation is a 2.1.x installation, not 2.0.x, so
you can't just move the queue entries because they're not compatible
(in 2.1 there is a single .pck file per msg as opposed to the 2.0 .db
and .msg files). IIRC, the incoming message is plain text in the .msg
file, so using bin/inject on the new system to inject these into the
'in' queue for the list, although tedious, may be easier than anything
else. (with luck, the list is an addressee so you can get that from
the .msg without having to get it from the metadata in the associated
.db).

-- 
Mark Sapiro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>   The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Server migration question

[vancleef]

The esteemed Steve Burling has said:
> 
> So, we pretty much successfully moved our mailman installation from the old 
> Solaris box to the new Red Hat box.
> 
> Only one small problem.  Of course.
> 
> We (and by we, I mean me) had failed to reduce the TTL for the MX record 
> that points to our mail server, which is now on a new machine.  So some 
> mailman mail is still being delivered to the old machine.  I've stopped the 
> qrunners on that machine, so things are just piling up in the qfiles/in 
> directory.
> 
This is something to handle in your MTA.  I assume, since you specify
Solaris as the old machine, that you were running Sendmail on it.  

Remove the aliases that pipe to the mail list, and set up something
like mailtertable to ship them to the new host.  

Hank
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