Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

2020-03-03 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 3/3/20 6:47 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> Can you share with me (us) the number and size, along with the industry
> or operations arena, of those people who are creating their own web UI.


I have no information about that.


> I honestly don't believe that there is that much interest for that
> outside of a handful of entities (Brian, CPanel, Canonical, and
> LinkedIn?).  I feel like if the interest was greater, we'd see more
> evidence of that in the Gitlab issue tracker and or on the MM3 lists.  
> Convince me that I'm wrong.


By the same reasoning, if there was real interest in porting the Mailman
2.1 code base to Python 3, we'd be seeing that too.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. All I'm saying is what I've
said all along and that is that I believe that if you want a smaller,
easier to install Python 3 based Mailman, the best way to accomplish
that is to build a light weight, non-Django web UI that communicates
with Mailman 3 core via the REST API and, for Python at least, the
existing mailmanclient bindings.

If you believe some other way is better, that's fine. It doesn't matter
to me because I'm not doing it. I am willing and available to help
anyone such as Brian with implementation of an alternative to Postorius
to the extent that I can.

There are already alternatives to HyperKitty. There is the 'prototype'
archiver which archives messages in maildir format and also the ability
to archive to mail-archive.com and MHonArc. See
.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

2020-03-03 Thread Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users 
On Mon, 2020-03-02 at 17:18 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 3/2/20 1:55 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> > There are plenty of people who are still happy with pipermail and some
> > of the other search options (Google, htdig, etc)  What benefit does a
> > REST api provide to church groups, and tech lists like nanog or mailop? 
> 
> It provides a stable, documented management interface so people can
> create their own web UIs to control Mailman 3 in whatever way they want.
> Granted your end user's aren't going to do this, but the people who want
> it can, and more easily than by porting Mailman 2.1 to Python 3.

Can you share with me (us) the number and size, along with the industry
or operations arena, of those people who are creating their own web UI.

I honestly don't believe that there is that much interest for that
outside of a handful of entities (Brian, CPanel, Canonical, and
LinkedIn?).  I feel like if the interest was greater, we'd see more
evidence of that in the Gitlab issue tracker and or on the MM3 lists.  
Convince me that I'm wrong.

-Jim P.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

2020-03-02 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 3/2/20 1:55 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> There are plenty of people who are still happy with pipermail and some
> of the other search options (Google, htdig, etc)  What benefit does a
> REST api provide to church groups, and tech lists like nanog or mailop? 


It provides a stable, documented management interface so people can
create their own web UIs to control Mailman 3 in whatever way they want.
Granted your end user's aren't going to do this, but the people who want
it can, and more easily than by porting Mailman 2.1 to Python 3.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

2020-03-02 Thread Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users 
On Mon, 2020-03-02 at 10:54 -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> On 3/2/20 8:56 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> > Barry's roadmap
> > for Python2 -> Python3 seems to counter the narrative that MM2 is ill-
> > advised to be ported to Python3 (btw, that was posted in Jan of this
> > year).
> 
> The question is what do people want when they say they want Mailman 2
> ported to Python 3.

I believe they want Mailman 2, as it is today, but with a fully
supported language that it depends on.  Lets be clear, the upgrade from
MM2 to MM3 is not the same as a traditional upgrade path, MM3 is a whole
new application.  It's an application upgrade the same way the Space
Shuttle was an upgrade from the Apollo capsules.  Different designs,
whole new concepts, years of pie-in-the-sky and dry marker dust.  While
that is important to some, it may not matter to others (and I think that
is the situation today).  I really want to know who all the "we need a
REST interface now!" people are.

I'm reminded of that great diagram from years past about "what the
customer wanted", "what the developer envisioned", "what the tester
tested", etc.  It's a great reminder of how quagmires are created.

> If it means, porting to Python 3 and fixing a few things on the way such
> as adding a real backend database, a concept of "user" and a REST API,
> it's at least partially done. It's Mailman 3 core.
> 
> If it means cloning the MM 2.1 web UI and pipermail archiver, that is
> almost certainly not worth the effort.

There are plenty of people who are still happy with pipermail and some
of the other search options (Google, htdig, etc)  What benefit does a
REST api provide to church groups, and tech lists like nanog or mailop? 

BTW, I've run some technical discussion lists for 2 decades now, I can
recall the number of times someone has said "we need an archive search
feature" on 1 hand.
 
> A compromise is exactly what Brian proposes. Mailman 3 with a new web
> UI, light weight, not based on Django and easy to install. Mailman 3 was
> explicitly designed to be separate from a web management UI and Archiver
> and to allow different implementations of those to integrate easily with
> core.

While I applaud Brian's efforts, I'm not convinced that I would run PHP
on a public facing portal, even in 2020.  But that's just me, others may
feel differently.

> Postorius and HyperKitty are part of Mailman 3 because we needed
> something and that is what people were willing to commit to do. We
> always hoped there would be alternatives, and it seems that now Brian is
> working on one. There's room for more.

-Jim P.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

2020-03-02 Thread Dave Stevens 
On Sat, 29 Feb 2020 10:53:19 -0500
Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users  wrote:

> but I have vague recollections that both Barry and Mark have 
> > said repeatedly that doing so would be substantially  anything built on the 
> > MM2
> > architecture.  

assuming that's so I think the "anything built on the MM2
architecture" is perhaps misconceived. I don't need to be told that
MM2 is awkward to set up and run but millions of people get and send
mail that way every day and it mostly "just works." This very large
body of users it what matters most to actually getting work done, not
the developers' wishes and preferences - "more effort than they are
willing to put into...". I think increasingly as time goes by that the
new New Coke analogy is a good fit.

D
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

2020-03-02 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 3/2/20 8:56 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

> Barry's roadmap
> for Python2 -> Python3 seems to counter the narrative that MM2 is ill-
> advised to be ported to Python3 (btw, that was posted in Jan of this
> year).


The question is what do people want when they say they want Mailman 2
ported to Python 3.

If it means, porting to Python 3 and fixing a few things on the way such
as adding a real backend database, a concept of "user" and a REST API,
it's at least partially done. It's Mailman 3 core.

If it means cloning the MM 2.1 web UI and pipermail archiver, that is
almost certainly not worth the effort.

A compromise is exactly what Brian proposes. Mailman 3 with a new web
UI, light weight, not based on Django and easy to install. Mailman 3 was
explicitly designed to be separate from a web management UI and Archiver
and to allow different implementations of those to integrate easily with
core.

Postorius and HyperKitty are part of Mailman 3 because we needed
something and that is what people were willing to commit to do. We
always hoped there would be alternatives, and it seems that now Brian is
working on one. There's room for more.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

2020-03-02 Thread Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users 
On Mon, 2020-03-02 at 17:17 +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:
> 
>  > Interestingly enough, here's a roadmap on exactly how to do it:  :)
> 
> Jim, you're not helping.  

Stephen, thank you for taking the time to respond.  Although I would
have preferred you respond to the questions that I asked, I believe I
can now see why you don't want to.  Your "Dave Matthews" subthread sent
me down a youtube rabbit's hole of Barry's videos and links. TBH, I can
see why bringing those to the surface aren't favorable. Barry's roadmap
for Python2 -> Python3 seems to counter the narrative that MM2 is ill-
advised to be ported to Python3 (btw, that was posted in Jan of this
year).

> Until there are "I'll do it" hands up, no
> port to Python 3 that is faithful to current Mailman 2 is viable.

That is a piece of a much bigger puzzle.  How are we to attract interest
in coding for MM2 when (omg wow) for the past 10+ years key people have
been drumming a beat that MM2 is dead.

> Pushing it just serves to annoy those who are currently doing work for
> Mailman that they care more about.

I get that, but others may care more about MM2, you yourself have even
somewhat begrudgingly acknowledged this.

> By contrast, your question about security fixes was an entirely
> appropriate clarification, and #ThankYouForPersisting on that
> subthread.

#Mailman3MightBeTheNewNewCoke :-)

-Jim P.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

2020-03-02 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users writes:

 > Interestingly enough, here's a roadmap on exactly how to do it:  :)

Jim, you're not helping.  Until there are "I'll do it" hands up, no
port to Python 3 that is faithful to current Mailman 2 is viable.
Pushing it just serves to annoy those who are currently doing work for
Mailman that they care more about.

By contrast, your question about security fixes was an entirely
appropriate clarification, and #ThankYouForPersisting on that
subthread.

Steve

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

2020-02-29 Thread Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users 
On Thu, 2020-02-27 at 14:51 -0500, Bill Cole wrote:
> On 27 Feb 2020, at 14:24, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> > Personally, I'd like to see the GNU Mailman project have a formal
> > Mailman 2.3 release that supports Python3, I feel that there would be 
> > a
> > lot of support for that.
> 
> I'm sure there would be widespread applause and congratulations if such 
> a thing were actually released. That sort of "support" is unhelpful 
> towards actually making such a release.
> 
> The needed support is the actual skilled effort of writing the required 
> Python3 code. I don't have the time to hunt down the specific 
> statements, but I have vague recollections that both Barry and Mark have 
> said repeatedly that doing so would be substantially more effort than 
> they are willing to put into anything built on the MM2 architecture.


Interestingly enough, here's a roadmap on exactly how to do it:  :)

https://engineering.linkedin.com/blog/2020/how-we-retired-python-2-and-improved-developer-happiness


-Jim P.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

2020-02-28 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
Phil Stracchino writes:
 > On 2020-02-28 05:44, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

 > > str in Python 1, and the history of Mailman as an MLM for an American
 > > rock band (who needs no steekin' accents, we just hammer and bend the
 > > strings!)
 > 
 > This is clearly a story I didn't know.  :)  And now I'm curious...

John Viega was a friend of somebody in the Dave Matthews Band, maybe
Matthews himself.  In the mid-90s, they needed a mailing list to tell
people where they were playing, John didn't like any of the MLMs
available, so he wrote Mailman.  For more info, you'd have to chase
down John or Barry Warsaw, I think.  Maybe Mark knows more.

Barry wrote a chapter on Mailman in "The Architecture of Open Source
Applications", there is some historical stuff in there.  And
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d=dave+matthews+band+GNU+Mailman
brings up a bunch of relevant-looking links.

Thanks for asking, I may have to follow some of those myself!

Steve

P.S. It is a great story, and a great advert for free/open source
software!

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

2020-02-28 Thread Phil Stracchino 
On 2020-02-28 05:44, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:
> Mailman has the opposite problem.  We *wish* str was Unicode from the
> get-go, but it wasn't, and Mailman 2 is rife with potential encoded/
> decoded confusion because of the nature of email and the dual usage of
> str in Python 1, and the history of Mailman as an MLM for an American
> rock band (who needs no steekin' accents, we just hammer and bend the
> strings!)


This is clearly a story I didn't know.  :)  And now I'm curious...



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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

2020-02-28 Thread Stephen J. Turnbull 
Phil Stracchino writes:

 > Rewriting without breaking is hard.

True.

 > There is a Python framework called Twisted.

Not an example appropriate to Mailman, though.  The Twisted people were
doing amazing things with str, to which Unicode was irrelevant, because
their job was to shovel bytes from here to there correctly but as fast
as possible.  (Mercurial has a similar story, and a similar visceral
hatred for Python 3.)

Mailman has the opposite problem.  We *wish* str was Unicode from the
get-go, but it wasn't, and Mailman 2 is rife with potential encoded/
decoded confusion because of the nature of email and the dual usage of
str in Python 1, and the history of Mailman as an MLM for an American
rock band (who needs no steekin' accents, we just hammer and bend the
strings!)  There are two decades of hacks and patches in Mailman 2 to
catch the squirmers that somehow manage to be str where unicode is
needed or vice versa, and every single one of those would need to be
reverse engineered in a Python 3 environment.  Not a job I would want
to do: like Barry, I would rewrite from scratch (and probably redesign
as well).  But every part converted would be a joy to work with in
the future.

 > As best I can determine, the task of updating it to be Python 3
 > compatible has now been under way for ten years (with most of that
 > time, only one person working on it).

But that's because Python 3 deliberately encouraged decoding streams
of bytes, by making it hard to process bytes the same way as str in
Python 2.  It wouldn't have been hard to make the bytes type identical
to str except for the internal representation, so that programs like
Twisted and Mercurial would just need to be converted so that
*everything* was bytes except for the error messages.  But that was
deliberately avoided: a lot of (Python 2) str methods were not
inherited by bytes.  (In fact, some were re-added later, but too late
to make the bit-shovelers happy.)  So the Twisted people hated Python
3 with a passion.

I'm not surprised that only one person would work on the port, I'm
surprised they found even one!

Steve
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

2020-02-27 Thread Dimitri Maziuk via Mailman-Users 
On 2/27/20 2:08 PM, Phil Stracchino wrote:
...
> What has this yielded?
> 
> "Most of the most commonly used parts" of Twisted are now Python 3
> compatible.

I hear this how upgrading any django installation from one python-3
version to another python-3 version usually goes. I.e. long-term, at
this point we're still better off porting MM2 than switching to MM3.

Not sure why, though: Jan 2020 has come and gone and all my python-2
scripts are still working. Amazingly enough.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

2020-02-27 Thread Phil Stracchino 
On 2020-02-27 14:51, Bill Cole wrote:
> On 27 Feb 2020, at 14:24, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
>> Personally, I'd like to see the GNU Mailman project have a formal
>> Mailman 2.3 release that supports Python3, I feel that there would be 
>> a
>> lot of support for that.
> 
> I'm sure there would be widespread applause and congratulations if such 
> a thing were actually released. That sort of "support" is unhelpful 
> towards actually making such a release.
> 
> The needed support is the actual skilled effort of writing the required 
> Python3 code. I don't have the time to hunt down the specific 
> statements, but I have vague recollections that both Barry and Mark have 
> said repeatedly that doing so would be substantially more effort than 
> they are willing to put into anything built on the MM2 architecture.

Rewriting without breaking is hard.

There is a Python framework called Twisted.  It has a lot of useful
features.  Also a lot of vices, but a lot of useful features.  As best I
can determine, the task of updating it to be Python 3 compatible has now
been under way for ten years (with most of that time, only one person
working on it).

What has this yielded?

"Most of the most commonly used parts" of Twisted are now Python 3
compatible.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

2020-02-27 Thread Bill Cole 

On 27 Feb 2020, at 14:24, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:


Personally, I'd like to see the GNU Mailman project have a formal
Mailman 2.3 release that supports Python3, I feel that there would be 
a

lot of support for that.


I'm sure there would be widespread applause and congratulations if such 
a thing were actually released. That sort of "support" is unhelpful 
towards actually making such a release.


The needed support is the actual skilled effort of writing the required 
Python3 code. I don't have the time to hunt down the specific 
statements, but I have vague recollections that both Barry and Mark have 
said repeatedly that doing so would be substantially more effort than 
they are willing to put into anything built on the MM2 architecture.



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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project (was: Handling Munged From Addresses)

2020-02-27 Thread Mark Sapiro 
On 2/27/20 11:24 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:
> 
> Who decides that there will be no more releases of MM2 from the GNU
> Mailman project?  


I do. I am the release manager and the only one making releases so I get
to decide.


> I've got to be honest, Mailman 3 still looks unstable to me.  I get that
> it's working on python.org where there are people working on it day
> after day, but surely you realize there are a ton of Mailman2 sites that
> don't have the time to develop and maintain their own install day after
> day.  Look at the MM3 list, there are people who do nothing but offer
> full time Mailman hosting and they have problem after problem.  And then
> there's the whole "I don't need a CMS for a MLM" argument.  I personally
> believe there's a lot more life left in MM2 than a few people want to
> admit. 


That's all well and good, but MM 2.1 is stable product that works. Why
does it need added/changed features at this point?


> OK, there's the Python2 EOL issue, but python2 isn't disappearing
> overnight, certainly not this month or next (as you say the case should
> be with MM2).  


Where do you get the idea that I said MM 2 will be disappearing? I never
said that. I just said there will be no further releases after 2.1.30.

This list will not go away, and I will not stop reading/responding until
the need for that goes away assuming I live that long


> I guess I'm just still a bit shocked to see you rush to abandon
> something so popular and established.


I'm not rushing to abandon anything. I'm just saying don't expect
Mailman 2.1.31 from the GNU Mailman project.


> Personally, I'd like to see the GNU Mailman project have a formal
> Mailman 2.3 release that supports Python3, I feel that there would be a
> lot of support for that.


If you want to port Mailman 2 to Python 3, you are welcome to do it. I
have said before that a much better use of time and resources would be
the implementation of a light weight, non-Django web UI for Mailman 3,
but I don't see anyone raising a hand to do either.


-- 
Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
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