Re: [Mailman-Users] help files

[Grant Taylor]

On 12/31/08 14:25, Barry Warsaw wrote:
Load on the wiki is probably not too big of a deal; it's supposedly on a 
fairly beefy virtual host connected to a big pipe.  The security issue 
is worth considering though.


Can the wiki actually do the redirect(s) with out relying on an HTML 
refresh to a new location?  Or better asked, will the wiki (as a system) 
allow you to return a HTTP Location header or will you be constrained 
with in the structure of the wiki?




Grant. . . .
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Re: [Mailman-Users] help files

[Barry Warsaw]

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On Dec 31, 2008, at 11:12 AM, Brad Knowles wrote:


on 12/31/08 12:55 AM, Grant Taylor said:

I think this is what /should/ be done.  And what I was (poorly)  
trying to get at.  So, the offer for help with Apache / PHP / DB  
code is still applicable and still stands.  :)


One trick here is exactly where we put our documentation on this  
matter.  If we do it within the wiki, then most anyone should be  
able to update it on demand, although I'm not sure what additional  
load this might create on the wiki.  We might also want to think  
twice about such a public page being easily editable by anyone that  
would be used so widely within a program like Mailman.


Load on the wiki is probably not too big of a deal; it's supposedly on  
a fairly beefy virtual host connected to a big pipe.  The security  
issue is worth considering though.


If we try to do this on the main list.org site itself, I believe  
that Barry is the only one with the account and permissions to make  
these kinds of changes, in part because the site is actually owned  
by someone else (maybe John Viega, one of the original authors of  
Mailman?).


Several people can actually edit the pages (and of course, I'd be  
happy to add permissions for you too Brad!), but it's true that I'm  
the only one that can push out new pages.  It's easy for me to do  
though, so a quick ping in email or irc would do the trick.


- -Barry

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Re: [Mailman-Users] help files

[Grant Taylor]

On 12/31/08 10:12, Brad Knowles wrote:
One trick here is exactly where we put our documentation on this matter. 
 If we do it within the wiki, then most anyone should be able to update 
it on demand, although I'm not sure what additional load this might 
create on the wiki.  We might also want to think twice about such a 
public page being easily editable by anyone that would be used so widely 
within a program like Mailman.


I'm betting that the wiki can't do a 302 redirect, which would be 
proper.  I'm sure that something could be done to do an HTML "refresh" 
or a JavaScript "document.location", but neither of those are as nice as 
an HTTP 302 redirect.  The 302 redirect operates at a much lower layer 
and is much easier on systems because clients don't have to process the 
downloaded page.  It uses less bandwidth too.


If we try to do this on the main list.org site itself, I believe that 
Barry is the only one with the account and permissions to make these 
kinds of changes, in part because the site is actually owned by someone 
else (maybe John Viega, one of the original authors of Mailman?).


*nod*

I got to thinking.  I chose Apache / PHP because that's what I know 
best.  But there is no reason (that I know of) that would prevent the 
same thing from being written in Python, or any other dynamic language 
for that matter.




Grant. . . .
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Re: [Mailman-Users] help files

[Brad Knowles]

on 12/31/08 12:55 AM, Grant Taylor said:

I think this is what /should/ be done.  And what I was (poorly) trying 
to get at.  So, the offer for help with Apache / PHP / DB code is still 
applicable and still stands.  :)


One trick here is exactly where we put our documentation on this matter. 
 If we do it within the wiki, then most anyone should be able to update 
it on demand, although I'm not sure what additional load this might 
create on the wiki.  We might also want to think twice about such a 
public page being easily editable by anyone that would be used so widely 
within a program like Mailman.


If we try to do this on the main list.org site itself, I believe that 
Barry is the only one with the account and permissions to make these 
kinds of changes, in part because the site is actually owned by someone 
else (maybe John Viega, one of the original authors of Mailman?).


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Re: [Mailman-Users] help files

[Grant Taylor]

On 12/30/2008 12:01 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:
You're talking to the wrong people. The problem is that the Mailman 
web interface and other documentation currently contains links to 
documentation on the python.org web site. These links have been 
broken by changes at python.org, a site over which we Mailman folks 
have no control and little influence.


I'm really talking to (at) both sets of web developers / maintainers. 
Such a system should really be in place on both the Mailman /and/ 
Python.org web sites.


However I do think that the Mailman documentation maintainers should 
point to web pages that they do have more control over.  In my opinion 
it is bad form to point to something that you do not control and thus 
can't rely on.


The only way redirects help us is in defending against the *next* 
change at python.org, we could change our links now to go to a site 
we do control and redirect from there to python.org. Then next time, 
we would only have to change the redirects.


*Exactly!*

I think this is what /should/ be done.  And what I was (poorly) trying 
to get at.  So, the offer for help with Apache / PHP / DB code is still 
applicable and still stands.  :)




Grant. . . .
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Re: [Mailman-Users] help files

[Barry Warsaw]

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On Dec 30, 2008, at 7:46 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:


Barry Warsaw wrote:


the new docs.python.org organization.  I can ask the pdo admins and
doc folks to set up redirects if possible, and may be able to set
those redirects up myself.

Please submit a bug report on the issue, indicating which links are
broken.  It might be best to do this on the Python bug tracker:
bugs.python.org.  Feel free to assign the issue to me (user name:
barry).  If I can't fix it, I'll try to find someone who can.



I put it in the tracker as . It was
automagically assigned to georg.brandl, but I put barry on the copy
list.


Thanks Mark.  I'll ping Georg and see what we can do.
- -Barry

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Re: [Mailman-Users] help files

[Mark Sapiro]

Barry Warsaw wrote:
>
>the new docs.python.org organization.  I can ask the pdo admins and
>doc folks to set up redirects if possible, and may be able to set
>those redirects up myself.
>
>Please submit a bug report on the issue, indicating which links are
>broken.  It might be best to do this on the Python bug tracker:
>bugs.python.org.  Feel free to assign the issue to me (user name:
>barry).  If I can't fix it, I'll try to find someone who can.


I put it in the tracker as . It was
automagically assigned to georg.brandl, but I put barry on the copy
list.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] help files

[Barry Warsaw]

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On Dec 30, 2008, at 1:01 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

You're talking to the wrong people. The problem is that the Mailman  
web

interface and other documentation currently contains links to
documentation on the python.org web site. These links have been broken
by changes at python.org, a site over which we Mailman folks have no
control and little influence.


Well, sort of .

I'm sorry, I've been out of town for a while so I've missed the  
thread.  I gather that links on the Mailman admin u/i have broken with  
the new docs.python.org organization.  I can ask the pdo admins and  
doc folks to set up redirects if possible, and may be able to set  
those redirects up myself.


Please submit a bug report on the issue, indicating which links are  
broken.  It might be best to do this on the Python bug tracker:  
bugs.python.org.  Feel free to assign the issue to me (user name:  
barry).  If I can't fix it, I'll try to find someone who can.


- -Barry

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Re: [Mailman-Users] help files

[Adam McGreggor]

On Tue, Dec 30, 2008 at 10:01:58AM -0800, Mark Sapiro wrote:
> You're talking to the wrong people. The problem is that the Mailman web
> interface and other documentation currently contains links to
> documentation on the python.org web site. These links have been broken
> by changes at python.org, a site over which we Mailman folks have no
> control and little influence.
> 
> The only way redirects help us is in defending against the *next*
> change at python.org, we could change our links now to go to a site we
> do control and redirect from there to python.org. Then next time, we
> would only have to change the redirects.

That's what I was suggesting.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] help files

[Mark Sapiro]

Grant Taylor wrote:
>
>Seeing as how both Stephen and Adam have mentioned redirects, I figured 
>I'd add some more information.




You're talking to the wrong people. The problem is that the Mailman web
interface and other documentation currently contains links to
documentation on the python.org web site. These links have been broken
by changes at python.org, a site over which we Mailman folks have no
control and little influence.

The only way redirects help us is in defending against the *next*
change at python.org, we could change our links now to go to a site we
do control and redirect from there to python.org. Then next time, we
would only have to change the redirects.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] help files

[Grant Taylor]

On 12/29/2008 08:29 PM, Taylor, Grant wrote:
I'm sure that it's not only Mailman that has been hurt by the changed 
URLs.  Besides, I'd be very tempted to set up 302, or better 301, 
redirects from the old URLs to the new URLs.  That way if /anyone/ does 
accidentally enter the old URL they are redirected to where they should 
be.  Optionally for pages that merged or split, they could put a 
disambiguating page (like Wikipedia) allowing people to choose where 
they want to go.


Seeing as how both Stephen and Adam have mentioned redirects, I figured 
I'd add some more information.


If the web server is running Apache and / or PHP, it would be trivial to 
create a new (sub)directory / structure that behaves much like TinyURL 
in that it would be something along the lines of redirecting URLs like 
"/<(sub)directory>/links/" (using URL re-writing) or 
"/<(sub)directory>/links?linkID=" (no URL re-writing) to a 
final destination.


Using either method (URL rewriting or not) it would be trivial to create 
a two column database that has the requested URL and the redirect to URL 
to query and generate a redirection from.  (If need be I can put 
together some example code to do this.)


The only thing that comes to mind that would be a problem is when 
content either merges or splits across individual files.  In this case, 
you would need some sort of landing page for visitors to decide where 
they want to go.  A sign post for the fork in the road, if you will.




Grant. . . .
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Re: [Mailman-Users] help files

[Adam McGreggor]

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 07:29:59PM -0600, Brad Knowles wrote:
> on 12/29/08 5:54 PM, Mark Sapiro said:
> 
> >I am aware the the python.org documentation URLs have all changed.
> >Unfortunately, it's not a simple mapping. E.g., the above becomes
> >
> >or equivalently
> >.
> 
> Part of the problem is that the people who maintain the official 
> python.org documentation for this information feel that Mailman should 
> not be referencing their documentation, instead we should have our own 
> internal version of the same information.

I'd say "why reinvent the wheel"...

> So, they don't give a flying flip about what happens to the Mailman 
> community when they change their documentation or their URLs.

Although 10years old, I still think http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI
is a well-put document.

> Since the release engineer for the next major version of Python is going 
> to be mentored by Barry Warsaw for that role, perhaps we can get some 
> sympathy there and hopefully get a bit more cooperation on things like this.

Make sense to me. 

If not/it doesn't happen, perhaps a workaround could be to reference
python.org docs via a list.org/pythonref/foo Redirect or similar? -- bit
more maint, but could be scripted.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] help files

[Stephen J. Turnbull]

Brad Knowles writes:

 > So, they don't give a flying flip about what happens to the Mailman 
 > community when they change their documentation or their URLs.

Whatever happened to the principle that URLs shouldn't just disappear?

How about TOOWTDI?  And the closely related DRY (don't repeat
yourself)?  Doc people should be especially sensitive to these
issues. :-(

But I suppose it's too much to hope that they'll be persuaded.  Would
it be a good idea to make such references indirect?  E.g., have a
list.org URL that does a redirect to the Python URL?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] help files

[Grant Taylor]

On 12/29/2008 07:29 PM, Brad Knowles wrote:
Part of the problem is that the people who maintain the official 
python.org documentation for this information feel that Mailman should 
not be referencing their documentation, instead we should have our own 
internal version of the same information.


Arguably, that is probably the better thing to do.  Or at least point to 
a page that says "Go  to find the information that you are 
wanting..." and have the "" be more easily update able while still 
providing a static path that will work across multiple Maiman releases.


So, they don't give a flying flip about what happens to the Mailman 
community when they change their documentation or their URLs.


I'm sure that it's not only Mailman that has been hurt by the changed 
URLs.  Besides, I'd be very tempted to set up 302, or better 301, 
redirects from the old URLs to the new URLs.  That way if /anyone/ does 
accidentally enter the old URL they are redirected to where they should 
be.  Optionally for pages that merged or split, they could put a 
disambiguating page (like Wikipedia) allowing people to choose where 
they want to go.




Grant. . . .
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Re: [Mailman-Users] help files

[Brad Knowles]

on 12/29/08 5:54 PM, Mark Sapiro said:


I am aware the the python.org documentation URLs have all changed.
Unfortunately, it's not a simple mapping. E.g., the above becomes

or equivalently
.


Part of the problem is that the people who maintain the official 
python.org documentation for this information feel that Mailman should 
not be referencing their documentation, instead we should have our own 
internal version of the same information.


So, they don't give a flying flip about what happens to the Mailman 
community when they change their documentation or their URLs.



Since the release engineer for the next major version of Python is going 
to be mentored by Barry Warsaw for that role, perhaps we can get some 
sympathy there and hopefully get a bit more cooperation on things like this.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] help files

[Mark Sapiro]

Michael Welch wrote:
>
>It appears that at least some of the help files are no longer available at the 
>links embedded in Mailman, like this one:
>http://www.python.org/doc/current/lib/re-syntax.html


I am aware the the python.org documentation URLs have all changed.
Unfortunately, it's not a simple mapping. E.g., the above becomes

or equivalently
.

I do plan to update all the python.org references before the next
release.

I have already updated references to the old FAQ Wizard. If you are
aware of any othe broken links, please let me know.

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