Re: [MlMt] . Re: High Sierra, APFS, Time Machine, and MailMate.

2017-12-14 Thread Bill Cole 

On 14 Dec 2017, at 13:18 (-0500), Randall Meadows wrote:


On 14 Dec 2017, at 10:44, Tracy Valleau wrote:

As an Apple Developer since 1978, I can say that I quit using TM 
years ago. It is a consumer-level product, with modest capabilities 
and horrible reliability.


You asked for a solution. You need more robust backup software, which 
offers a mimicking of TM.


Two extremely reliable options are Carbon Copy Cloner and Chronosync. 
Both can be configured to run automatically whenever you like.


Chronosync is extremely versatile, and can out-do TM in its level of 
granularity.


Neither of which, though, do "versioned" backups like TM does, right?  
You only get the most recent "snapshot" of the drive, not any history 
of any items?


CCC can (and currently does by default, I believe) use a "Safety Net" 
feature that moves changed files to dated subdirectories of "/_CCC 
Archives/" before replacing them. It can also be configured to pre-clear 
old archive directories to make space for new backups.


An advantage TM has is (usually) very fast determination of what needs 
to be backed up via the FSEvents API, while CCC always takes about the 
same long time to scan the whole disk and compare it to the last backup.



--
Bill Cole
b...@scconsult.com or billc...@apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Currently Seeking Steady Work: https://linkedin.com/in/billcole
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Re: [MlMt] . Re: High Sierra, APFS, Time Machine, and MailMate.

2017-12-14 Thread David Hoffman 
On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 Randall Meadows wrote:

>Neither of which, though, do "versioned" backups like TM does, right?  
>You only get the most recent "snapshot" of the drive, not any history of 
>any items?

CS can be set up to keep archived copies of changed or deleted items. I have it 
archive the last 6 versions. CS allows you to be as granular as you like by 
making multiple backup scripts so some items can be backed up at different 
intervals and the number of previous versions of items to be archived can be 
varied.

David Hoffman
-- 
__
 
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 http://www.hoffmanphotos.com
 twitter: @davidhoffmanuk

 landline +44 (0)20 8981 5041
 mobile   +44 (0)7881 817 751

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Re: [MlMt] . Re: High Sierra, APFS, Time Machine, and MailMate.

2017-12-14 Thread Steven M. Bellovin 

On 14 Dec 2017, at 13:18, Randall Meadows wrote:


On 14 Dec 2017, at 10:44, Tracy Valleau wrote:

As an Apple Developer since 1978, I can say that I quit using TM 
years ago. It is a consumer-level product, with modest capabilities 
and horrible reliability.


You asked for a solution. You need more robust backup software, which 
offers a mimicking of TM.


Two extremely reliable options are Carbon Copy Cloner and Chronosync. 
Both can be configured to run automatically whenever you like.


Chronosync is extremely versatile, and can out-do TM in its level of 
granularity.


Neither of which, though, do "versioned" backups like TM does, right?  
You only get the most recent "snapshot" of the drive, not any history 
of any items?


(I use CCC nightly for a quick-recovery in case of major disk failure, 
and TM to save my butt when I do something silly in `git`...)


That's why I don't use CCC. I use other, home-built solutions for full, 
non-versioned backup.___
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Re: [MlMt] . Re: High Sierra, APFS, Time Machine, and MailMate.

2017-12-14 Thread Randall Meadows 

On 14 Dec 2017, at 10:44, Tracy Valleau wrote:

As an Apple Developer since 1978, I can say that I quit using TM years 
ago. It is a consumer-level product, with modest capabilities and 
horrible reliability.


You asked for a solution. You need more robust backup software, which 
offers a mimicking of TM.


Two extremely reliable options are Carbon Copy Cloner and Chronosync. 
Both can be configured to run automatically whenever you like.


Chronosync is extremely versatile, and can out-do TM in its level of 
granularity.


Neither of which, though, do "versioned" backups like TM does, right?  
You only get the most recent "snapshot" of the drive, not any history of 
any items?


(I use CCC nightly for a quick-recovery in case of major disk failure, 
and TM to save my butt when I do something silly in `git`...)___
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Re: [MlMt] . Re: High Sierra, APFS, Time Machine, and MailMate.

2017-12-14 Thread Rob Willett 

I can only second what Tracey says.

I use Carbon Copy Cloner AND Chronosync as they have slightly different 
use cases. I tend to use Chronosync for full archived backups and CCC 
for disk clones but thats just me. I suspect I could use only one system 
and be very happy.


I have had too many issues with TM and it's no longer allowed to be used 
on any Mac I own.


Rob

On 14 Dec 2017, at 17:44, Tracy Valleau wrote:

As an Apple Developer since 1978, I can say that I quit using TM years 
ago. It is a consumer-level product, with modest capabilities and 
horrible reliability.


You asked for a solution. You need more robust backup software, which 
offers a mimicking of TM.


Two extremely reliable options are Carbon Copy Cloner and Chronosync. 
Both can be configured to run automatically whenever you like.


Chronosync is extremely versatile, and can out-do TM in its level of 
granularity.



Tracy
www.valleau.art




On 14 Dec 2017, at 9:00, mailmate-requ...@lists.freron.com wrote:


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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: High Sierra, APFS, Time Machine, and MailMate... (Roger 
Bohn)



--

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:45:44 -0800
From: "Roger Bohn" 
To: "MailMate Users" 
Subject: Re: [MlMt] High Sierra, APFS, Time Machine, and MailMate...
Message-ID: <4355c63b-7270-4d4a-b4b8-b45d27687...@ucsd.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

I have had this situation for many YEARS, long before I got MailMate.
The overall symptom is that backups take *many hours*, with sudden,
inexplicable stalls. I say

"inexplicable" because Activity Monitor shows essentially no CPU,
network, or disk activity -- but the backup just *stops*.


The problem is worse, the more Time Machine needs to back up. And for
reasons I have never figured out, even a routine backup on TM (of a 
few
hours of material) can have 5GB of files to go through. As a result, 
I

can get into a situation where TM is completely unable to get up to
date.

So I don’t know a solution, but don’t be too sure that it is 
really

due to MM. If anyone finds a solution, please drop me a line!
   One thing that helps is to switch from WiFi to a hard ethernet
connection. For some reason, TM is considerably faster that way.

  Roger Bohn, UC San Diego
rb...@ucsd.edu

On 10 Dec 2017, at 18:14, Steven M. Bellovin wrote:


Seems like an improbable subject line--but is anyone else who uses
MailMate on High Sierra/APFS suddenly having serious Time Machine
performance issues? I am, on two different laptops. An iMac, which 
has

a hard drive and hence HFS+, is not having any trouble.

The overall symptom is that backups take *many hours*, with sudden,
inexplicable stalls. I say "inexplicable" because Activity Monitor
shows essentially no CPU, network, or disk activity -- but the 
backup
just *stops*. I normally don't run MailMate on one of the laptops; 
its
backups complete in a rational amount of time. When I do, it sees 
the

same stalls. In fact, I'm running MailMate on it right now so that I
can see what happens on my primary laptop when I exit MailMate. Sure
enough, that machine is now behaving.

My suspicion is that the problem has to do with very large 
directories
on APFS file systems, but I don't know that for sure. I have some 
very
large mailboxes, though, and these are of course active when 
MailMate

is running.  And of course, that doesn't explain why I don't see any
system activity.

Is anyone else seeing this? Does anyone have any work-arounds, other
than "don't have such large mailboxes" or "don't run APFS"? I do 
have

a new laptop on order; I'm seriously tempted to reformat it as HFS+
before I start using it.


--Steve Bellovin, https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb


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[MlMt] . Re: High Sierra, APFS, Time Machine, and MailMate.

2017-12-14 Thread Tracy Valleau 
As an Apple Developer since 1978, I can say that I quit using TM years 
ago. It is a consumer-level product, with modest capabilities and 
horrible reliability.


You asked for a solution. You need more robust backup software, which 
offers a mimicking of TM.


Two extremely reliable options are Carbon Copy Cloner and Chronosync. 
Both can be configured to run automatically whenever you like.


Chronosync is extremely versatile, and can out-do TM in its level of 
granularity.



Tracy
www.valleau.art




On 14 Dec 2017, at 9:00, mailmate-requ...@lists.freron.com wrote:


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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: High Sierra, APFS, Time Machine, and MailMate... (Roger 
Bohn)



--

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:45:44 -0800
From: "Roger Bohn" 
To: "MailMate Users" 
Subject: Re: [MlMt] High Sierra, APFS, Time Machine, and MailMate...
Message-ID: <4355c63b-7270-4d4a-b4b8-b45d27687...@ucsd.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"

I have had this situation for many YEARS, long before I got MailMate.
The overall symptom is that backups take *many hours*, with sudden,
inexplicable stalls. I say

"inexplicable" because Activity Monitor shows essentially no CPU,
network, or disk activity -- but the backup just *stops*.


The problem is worse, the more Time Machine needs to back up. And for
reasons I have never figured out, even a routine backup on TM (of a 
few

hours of material) can have 5GB of files to go through. As a result, I
can get into a situation where TM is completely unable to get up to
date.

So I don’t know a solution, but don’t be too sure that it is 
really

due to MM. If anyone finds a solution, please drop me a line!
   One thing that helps is to switch from WiFi to a hard ethernet
connection. For some reason, TM is considerably faster that way.

  Roger Bohn, UC San Diego
rb...@ucsd.edu

On 10 Dec 2017, at 18:14, Steven M. Bellovin wrote:


Seems like an improbable subject line--but is anyone else who uses
MailMate on High Sierra/APFS suddenly having serious Time Machine
performance issues? I am, on two different laptops. An iMac, which 
has

a hard drive and hence HFS+, is not having any trouble.

The overall symptom is that backups take *many hours*, with sudden,
inexplicable stalls. I say "inexplicable" because Activity Monitor
shows essentially no CPU, network, or disk activity -- but the backup
just *stops*. I normally don't run MailMate on one of the laptops; 
its

backups complete in a rational amount of time. When I do, it sees the
same stalls. In fact, I'm running MailMate on it right now so that I
can see what happens on my primary laptop when I exit MailMate. Sure
enough, that machine is now behaving.

My suspicion is that the problem has to do with very large 
directories
on APFS file systems, but I don't know that for sure. I have some 
very

large mailboxes, though, and these are of course active when MailMate
is running.  And of course, that doesn't explain why I don't see any
system activity.

Is anyone else seeing this? Does anyone have any work-arounds, other
than "don't have such large mailboxes" or "don't run APFS"? I do have
a new laptop on order; I'm seriously tempted to reformat it as HFS+
before I start using it.


--Steve Bellovin, https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb


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