Re: [mailop] Best strategy to prune address list
On Sat, Nov 23, 2019, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo via mailop wrote: > In the olden days, one would simply write a script, using expect(1) or > similar, to go through the addresses, connect to the target MTAs, and do > an SMTP VRFY on the recipient address. Today, I suspect that most MTAs Some MTAs have a "sender verification/callback" functionality (also available in "milters"), AFAICT they simply use "RCPT". There are most likely standalone versions/tools too (I have one). ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Best strategy to prune address list
On 23 Nov 2019, at 16:06, Rolf E. Sonneveld via mailop wrote: Do you have some examples of reputable list cleaning services? No such entity can exist in the modern world. As Matt noted, without a reliable provenance and explicit permission for each and every address that might be subject to EU or CA law, mailing to a list is a legal risk. Any "list cleaner" who claims to be able to eliminate that risk is engaged in fraud (unless all they do is evaluating the list owner's existing provenance records.) -- Bill Cole b...@scconsult.com or billc...@apache.org (AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses) ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Best strategy to prune address list
There are also several legislative hurdles you’ll need to evaluate the list against. Two that come to mind are: Canada’s Anti-Spam Law has a two year expiry on implied consent. If you have addresses older than that in Canada you would likely be in violation of the law. GDPR also has some rules around understanding why a business is processing your data, why they have your data, how they use it, etc... all of this beyond consent. It’s rather complex for older data. if you don’t have the right consent and proof to back it up, track the source, and user location just cleaning the list won’t matter. ~ Matt > On Nov 23, 2019, at 16:15, Rolf E. Sonneveld via mailop > wrote: > > Hi, Steve, > >> On 23-11-19 20:18, Steve Atkins via mailop wrote: >> >>> On 23/11/2019 19:05, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo via mailop wrote: >>> "Rolf E. Sonneveld via mailop" writes: >>> What would be a good strategy for this customer to update his list of contacts? >> >> If it's old enough that they're asking the question, and are afraid of the >> impact of even a single "Hey, still interested?" email then toss the list >> and start over. Whatever process they go through to clean it up is going to >> leave it as still a junk list. >> >> If some of it is "old" (6+ months, say) then that applies to the old >> segment. Newer email addresses are likely recoverable. >> >> If there aren't any signup or last-mailed dates on the list then it's all >> old. > > To be honest, I don't know how old the list is, but thanks for your advise, > seems a good strategy to me. > >> >>> In the olden days, one would simply write a script, using expect(1) or >>> similar, to go through the addresses, connect to the target MTAs, and do >>> an SMTP VRFY on the recipient address. Today, I suspect that most MTAs >>> will refuse to service a VRFY request. >>> >>> Anyone know if that assumption is good? >> >> You're a couple of decades out of touch with email to even consider that >> approach. >> >> More usually a list owner who is really convinced they can save a bad list >> would buy list cleaning services from one of the companies that offer them. >> They'll use a variety of approaches to categorize the email addresses on a >> list into deliverable vs not. >> >> There are relatively reputable companies who offer email address validation >> or scoring, typically aiming at real-time validation at signup and similar >> situations. These are not the companies you go to for list cleaning. >> >> They're generally pretty inaccurate, and in ethics / respect for the email >> ecosystem only a step or two removed from professional spammers. If that. > > How can I distinguish one (list cleaning services) from the other (address > validation/scoring)? Do you have some examples of reputable list cleaning > services? > > Thanks, > /rolf > > > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Best strategy to prune address list
Hi, Steve, On 23-11-19 20:18, Steve Atkins via mailop wrote: On 23/11/2019 19:05, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo via mailop wrote: "Rolf E. Sonneveld via mailop" writes: What would be a good strategy for this customer to update his list of contacts? If it's old enough that they're asking the question, and are afraid of the impact of even a single "Hey, still interested?" email then toss the list and start over. Whatever process they go through to clean it up is going to leave it as still a junk list. If some of it is "old" (6+ months, say) then that applies to the old segment. Newer email addresses are likely recoverable. If there aren't any signup or last-mailed dates on the list then it's all old. To be honest, I don't know how old the list is, but thanks for your advise, seems a good strategy to me. In the olden days, one would simply write a script, using expect(1) or similar, to go through the addresses, connect to the target MTAs, and do an SMTP VRFY on the recipient address. Today, I suspect that most MTAs will refuse to service a VRFY request. Anyone know if that assumption is good? You're a couple of decades out of touch with email to even consider that approach. More usually a list owner who is really convinced they can save a bad list would buy list cleaning services from one of the companies that offer them. They'll use a variety of approaches to categorize the email addresses on a list into deliverable vs not. There are relatively reputable companies who offer email address validation or scoring, typically aiming at real-time validation at signup and similar situations. These are not the companies you go to for list cleaning. They're generally pretty inaccurate, and in ethics / respect for the email ecosystem only a step or two removed from professional spammers. If that. How can I distinguish one (list cleaning services) from the other (address validation/scoring)? Do you have some examples of reputable list cleaning services? Thanks, /rolf ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Best strategy to prune address list
On 2019-11-23 11:05 a.m., Tom Ivar Helbekkmo via mailop wrote: "Rolf E. Sonneveld via mailop" writes: What would be a good strategy for this customer to update his list of contacts? In the olden days, one would simply write a script, using expect(1) or similar, to go through the addresses, connect to the target MTAs, and do an SMTP VRFY on the recipient address. Today, I suspect that most MTAs will refuse to service a VRFY request. Anyone know if that assumption is good? -tih Unfortunately, yes.. 'all good intentions.. ' but because VRFY was quickly abused by list washers, and spammers doing dictionary attacks, and hackers testing data dumps from breaches.. VRFY is usually more strictly limited to in network tests, eg a firewall/gateway/appliance might use VRFY before sending messages through to an internal email server.. At least enough systems have stopped permitting it, to make it viable anymore. Not that turning it off stopped the distributed attacks.. -- "Catch the Magic of Linux..." Michael Peddemors, President/CEO LinuxMagic Inc. Visit us at http://www.linuxmagic.com @linuxmagic A Wizard IT Company - For More Info http://www.wizard.ca "LinuxMagic" a Registered TradeMark of Wizard Tower TechnoServices Ltd. 604-682-0300 Beautiful British Columbia, Canada This email and any electronic data contained are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to which they are addressed. Please note that any views or opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author and are not intended to represent those of the company. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Best strategy to prune address list
On 23 Nov 2019, at 11:05, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo via mailop wrote: > Today, I suspect that most MTAs > will refuse to service a VRFY request. > > Anyone know if that assumption is good? I would be very surprised if you were wrong. -lem ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Best strategy to prune address list
On 23/11/2019 19:05, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo via mailop wrote: "Rolf E. Sonneveld via mailop" writes: What would be a good strategy for this customer to update his list of contacts? If it's old enough that they're asking the question, and are afraid of the impact of even a single "Hey, still interested?" email then toss the list and start over. Whatever process they go through to clean it up is going to leave it as still a junk list. If some of it is "old" (6+ months, say) then that applies to the old segment. Newer email addresses are likely recoverable. If there aren't any signup or last-mailed dates on the list then it's all old. In the olden days, one would simply write a script, using expect(1) or similar, to go through the addresses, connect to the target MTAs, and do an SMTP VRFY on the recipient address. Today, I suspect that most MTAs will refuse to service a VRFY request. Anyone know if that assumption is good? You're a couple of decades out of touch with email to even consider that approach. More usually a list owner who is really convinced they can save a bad list would buy list cleaning services from one of the companies that offer them. They'll use a variety of approaches to categorize the email addresses on a list into deliverable vs not. There are relatively reputable companies who offer email address validation or scoring, typically aiming at real-time validation at signup and similar situations. These are not the companies you go to for list cleaning. They're generally pretty inaccurate, and in ethics / respect for the email ecosystem only a step or two removed from professional spammers. If that. Cheers, Steve ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Best strategy to prune address list
"Rolf E. Sonneveld via mailop" writes: > What would be a good strategy for this customer to update his list of > contacts? In the olden days, one would simply write a script, using expect(1) or similar, to go through the addresses, connect to the target MTAs, and do an SMTP VRFY on the recipient address. Today, I suspect that most MTAs will refuse to service a VRFY request. Anyone know if that assumption is good? -tih -- Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the significance of Lisp. Lisp is the most important idea in computer science. --Alan Kay ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Best strategy to prune address list
On 11/23/19 02:57, Rolf E. Sonneveld via mailop wrote: Hi, over the years, one of my customers has built up a list of contacts (mail addresses). He didn't use the list for quite some time and now he > wants to prune the list by checking the existence/validity of the addresses and remove the addresses that no longer exists. Simply sending a verification mail to 100,000 addresses will have negative impact on the reputation of his domain/addresses/egress mail servers, wouldn't it? What would be a good strategy for this customer to update his list of contacts? * What is "quite some time"? Six months? A year? Ten years? * How were the addresses obtained? Confirmed opt-in? * Does the customer intend to use the list for marketing? * Is there other interaction (transactional, one-on-one) with any of the addresses on the list? If "quite some time" is several years and there has been zero other interaction with the list, it's probably best to start over by mailing to those with which the customer has had recent interaction. -- Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Reasons ISPs (Microsoft) ignore DMARC policy?
On Fri 22/Nov/2019 22:54:02 +0100 Tom Kulzer via mailop wrote: >> On Nov 21, 2019, at 11:42 AM, Andrew C Aitchison via mailop wrote: >> >> For an ESP, did the DMARC rejects contains information not available >> elsewhere, or "just" put several relevant pieces of information in one place >> ? > > > Speaking as an ESP, DMARC reject reports are absolutely useful and contain > considerable information to help locate issues that can’t be sourced > elsewhere. However, only a few receivers send reject reports to ruf addresses. Would it be possible to augment aggregate reports so as to supply enough information? That is, what information is missing from aggregate reports? Thank you Ale -- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
[mailop] Best strategy to prune address list
Hi, over the years, one of my customers has built up a list of contacts (mail addresses). He didn't use the list for quite some time and now he wants to prune the list by checking the existence/validity of the addresses and remove the addresses that no longer exists. Simply sending a verification mail to 100,000 addresses will have negative impact on the reputation of his domain/addresses/egress mail servers, wouldn't it? What would be a good strategy for this customer to update his list of contacts? Thanks, /rolf ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
