Re: [mailop] [External] Re: Horrible week for email deliverability - Looking for help with RackSpace/Emailsrvr
Everybody is talking past each other with different scenarios in mind and each has different answers. How useful can that be? ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [External] Re: Horrible week for email deliverability - Looking for help with RackSpace/Emailsrvr
> Is there any precedent on how fresh / recent the "established business > relationship" must be to cover sending largely superfluous email? Sure, simple. If it is superfluous, don't send it. > If it's been less than a year since I conducted business with the sender and > they have an unsubscribe link, I'm willing to overlook it. Did you subscribe? Or were you subscribed without consent? In my book, adding an unsubscribe link doesn't magically make junk mail legitimate. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [External] Re: Horrible week for email deliverability - Looking for help with RackSpace/Emailsrvr
On 3/27/2020 6:25 AM, Paul Smith via mailop wrote: >> If the original poster meant something different by ESP, I >> misunderstood their terminology. >> > That's fine. It's worth clarifying terminology. Hi All, Great point about terminology. I'm the CEO emeritus for Peregrine Computer Consultants Corporation or PCCC. Just thought I would write a little about my firm. I love this list and keeping the email flowing! Are we an ESP? Are we an ISP? Since we are moving away from hosting websites and focusing on email, I consider ourselves an ESP. We run what I call a boutique ISP. We do this hosting for our research so we can provide email security expertise to the world. Since we provide hosting and SaaS-based email security, for the purpose of this list, ESP is the best. We are experts in anti-spam. We are the authors of KAM.cf and I've been involved with the SpamAssassin project since the nascent days coming up on 2 decades. We have 3 Apache SpamAssassin PMC members who work for us. We helped invent the concept of RBLs and we are public mirrors for quite a few. Oh and we are also involved with MIMEDefang which should be undergoing a small Renaissance soon. I welcome opportunities to help others and feel free to connect on LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kmcgrail/ Regards, KAM ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [External] Re: Horrible week for email deliverability - Looking for help with RackSpace/Emailsrvr
In article you write: >-=-=-=-=-=- >-=-=-=-=-=- > >On 3/26/20 11:20 AM, John R Levine via mailop wrote: >> As I'm sure you're aware, we've seen way too much spam from people who >> imagine that COVID is an excuse to reanimate zombie lists. > >Is there any precedent on how fresh / recent the "established business >relationship" must be to cover sending largely superfluous email? I don't think it's the kind of thing for which anyone could define a fixed rule beyond the obvious -- send people mail they want to get. Personally, I don't think there's any excuse for sending superfluous mail. I don't want to hear how you're taking care of your employees, since any responsible organization does that. When my bank sends me a note saying the branches are closed but the drive-ups are open, or the food coop I belong to sends a note saying the hours are shorter and don't bring your own bag because they're switching back to paper for the duration, those are fine. Some random company I bought stuff from two months ago saying that they hope I am OK and oh by the way we're offering free shipping so wouldn't I like to buy something else is not. R's, John ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [External] Re: Horrible week for email deliverability - Looking for help with RackSpace/Emailsrvr
On 3/27/2020 4:32 AM, Laura Atkins wrote: > All in all, I think you need to look a lot harder at what your free > customers are sending to their “friends and family” and think harder > about restricting their ability to cause problems for your paying > customers. Just a note, we don't have free customers (except for NPOs where we donate our services). It's the free services we are sending to that seem to have the most issues. For example, we'll see our JMRP / SNDS be fine and mail flowing to paying o365 without issue but we'll have rate limiting with hotmail/msn/live/outlook. For us, it's really looking like the volume is through the roof being the issue. That's been the result of all the tickets so far. All FPs, all triggered by raise in volume. I wish they would use percentages like JMRP does. This really looks like AI going awry. Regards, KAM ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [External] Re: Horrible week for email deliverability - Looking for help with RackSpace/Emailsrvr
On 27/03/2020 09:58, Laura Atkins wrote: I understand why you consider yourself an ESP. That’s not how i would refer to you. You’re an email hosting provider, because you host both the inbound and the outbound piece of mail. ESPs handle outbound, and the necessary bits of inbound to make SMTP work (delayed bounce handling, FBL and sometimes DMARC reporting) but not the “conversational” piece of email. If the original poster meant something different by ESP, I misunderstood their terminology. That's fine. It's worth clarifying terminology. You see, when they said there were 'a small ESP', *my* immediate thought was that they were a larger version of us, rather than a smaller version of MailChimp. You obviously thought the opposite. Which is fine. But which could do with clarification. -- Paul -- Paul Smith Computer Services Tel: 01484 855800 Vat No: GB 685 6987 53 Sign up for news & updates at http://www.pscs.co.uk/go/subscribe___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [External] Re: Horrible week for email deliverability - Looking for help with RackSpace/Emailsrvr
> On 27 Mar 2020, at 09:05, Paul Smith via mailop wrote: > > On 27/03/2020 08:32, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote: >> You have folks using a bulk ESP to send friends and family email? Do you >> have a free package or something that makes it appealing for individuals to >> go through all the work of setting up an ESP account just to send personal >> mail to their friends and family? > > I'm puzzled by that statement. (And, did Kevin say they were a 'bulk ESP'? I > thought he just said they were 'a small ESP’) I put “bulk” in to help clarify my advice. If they’re not bulk, then clearly there’s been a miscommunication and I didn’t understand what they were talking about. ESP means, to me “email service provider” which translates to “a type of mail provider that provides a platform for commercial senders to send bulk email.” Typically this involves the ability to upload email addresses, create content and then mail the content through the provider. They also do not handle one-to-one mail, they’re primarily set up to handle one-to-many mail. In the vast majority of cases, any response to the bulk mail goes to a mailbox handled by a different provider. > We're (what I would call) a (small) ESP, and have quite a few people who pay > to use us for personal email. > > An ESP is an 'Email Service Provider' (as I understand it). So, if we provide > an SMTP submission server for customers to use (and we're not a more general > 'ISP'), then we're an 'ESP’. It gets complicated, because that really puts Gmail, Microsoft and Verizon in the category of ESP, too. And I know a lot of folks do consider them an email service provider, and they are, but they’re different in terms of what they do and what advice I’d give to them to deal with delivery issues. > We have many customers who use us at work, and like our service and are fed > up with the non-existent customer service from faceless big freemail > providers so have asked to pay us a few pounds a year to use our service for > their personal use as well. It takes all of 5 minutes for them to type in a > new SMTP mail server & account details into their email software/app - it's > not exactly onorous. That saves them loads of time and stress later when they > can actually get through to someone who doesn't just reply with useless stock > emails when they need help. I understand why you consider yourself an ESP. That’s not how i would refer to you. You’re an email hosting provider, because you host both the inbound and the outbound piece of mail. ESPs handle outbound, and the necessary bits of inbound to make SMTP work (delayed bounce handling, FBL and sometimes DMARC reporting) but not the “conversational” piece of email. If the original poster meant something different by ESP, I misunderstood their terminology. -- Having an Email Crisis? We can help! 800 823-9674 Laura Atkins Word to the Wise la...@wordtothewise.com (650) 437-0741 Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [External] Re: Horrible week for email deliverability - Looking for help with RackSpace/Emailsrvr
On 27/03/2020 08:32, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote: You have folks using a bulk ESP to send friends and family email? Do you have a free package or something that makes it appealing for individuals to go through all the work of setting up an ESP account just to send personal mail to their friends and family? I'm puzzled by that statement. (And, did Kevin say they were a 'bulk ESP'? I thought he just said they were 'a small ESP') We're (what I would call) a (small) ESP, and have quite a few people who pay to use us for personal email. An ESP is an 'Email Service Provider' (as I understand it). So, if we provide an SMTP submission server for customers to use (and we're not a more general 'ISP'), then we're an 'ESP'. We have many customers who use us at work, and like our service and are fed up with the non-existent customer service from faceless big freemail providers so have asked to pay us a few pounds a year to use our service for their personal use as well. It takes all of 5 minutes for them to type in a new SMTP mail server & account details into their email software/app - it's not exactly onorous. That saves them loads of time and stress later when they can actually get through to someone who doesn't just reply with useless stock emails when they need help. -- Paul -- Paul Smith Computer Services Tel: 01484 855800 Vat No: GB 685 6987 53 Sign up for news & updates at http://www.pscs.co.uk/go/subscribe ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [External] Re: Horrible week for email deliverability - Looking for help with RackSpace/Emailsrvr
> On 26 Mar 2020, at 16:45, Kevin A. McGrail via mailop > wrote: > > > On 3/26/2020 12:37 PM, John Levine wrote: >> In article <62e55123-d1d0-f67b-9d03-191c8caaa...@pccc.com> you write: >> >>> We're a small ESP but respected and vigilant anti-spam community >>> members. However, our mail volume is through the roof because of the >>> pandemic and we're seeing false positive issues with deliverability. >> Do you know what your customers are sending? If it's blasts of "hey >> person who visited our web site eight years ago, we're very concerned >> about COVID and we're washing our hands and here's a coupon", they're >> not false positives. > > Hi John, > > Messages of all type but not a single feedback loop complaint. These > are definitely FPs as I disagree with your statement that a notice about > COVID-19 from someone who signed up to a list would be false positives. > These are confirmed, opt-in customer / community lists. Things like > Fire Department staff and Knights of Columbus member lists. Lack of complaints does not mean the mail is good. In fact, absolutely zero complaints often means the mail is bad and all going to the bulk folder. And if you’re talking emailsrv itself, I don’t think they provide a FBL for folks. > Most of what's causing issues seems to be politically charged emails > going to friends and family. And fatigue on how XYZ place is dealing > with the virus. You have folks using a bulk ESP to send friends and family email? Do you have a free package or something that makes it appealing for individuals to go through all the work of setting up an ESP account just to send personal mail to their friends and family? > But we are also seeing things like Board messages for First Responders > getting marked as spam which is insane. People are just overwhelmed and > volumes are high so it's less a blocking issue and more a rate-limiting > issue. I fear we are seeing a LOT of "I'll click the spam box to try > and clean up my mailbox" behavior. Especially since most of the issues > we are seeing are with freemail providers. I think a lot of AI is going > bonkers with just the surge in content. The good news is that companies like emailsrv don’t use complaints as filter fodder the same way the bulk mail providers do. They simply don’t have the customer base using a webmail interface. Much of their customers handle mail over IMAP, and that reduces the amount of data they can collect about how the users are interacting with mail. All in all, I think you need to look a lot harder at what your free customers are sending to their “friends and family” and think harder about restricting their ability to cause problems for your paying customers. laura -- Having an Email Crisis? We can help! 800 823-9674 Laura Atkins Word to the Wise la...@wordtothewise.com (650) 437-0741 Email Delivery Blog: https://wordtothewise.com/blog ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [External] Re: Horrible week for email deliverability - Looking for help with RackSpace/Emailsrvr
On 3/26/20 11:20 AM, John R Levine via mailop wrote: As I'm sure you're aware, we've seen way too much spam from people who imagine that COVID is an excuse to reanimate zombie lists. Is there any precedent on how fresh / recent the "established business relationship" must be to cover sending largely superfluous email? If it's been less than a year since I conducted business with the sender and they have an unsubscribe link, I'm willing to overlook it. If it's been more than five years, I think it's a problem and probably qualifies as spam. In between the two (negotiable) time frames is probably more subject to personal opinion. -- Grant. . . . unix || die smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [External] Re: Horrible week for email deliverability - Looking for help with RackSpace/Emailsrvr
On 3/26/2020 1:09 PM, Jay Hennigan via mailop wrote: > It's primarily fatigue on how XYZ place is dealing with the virus > where the recipient hasn't heard from XYZ place in the better part of > a decade. We'll agree to disagree. This isn't spam as there was consent and it's transactional based. Is it annoying, sure. I don't suggest it but there is a transactional relationship here. It's not spam. But I also don't think it's what causing the issues we are seeing. So far, every situation has been looked and agreed it was a FP. > People sending politically charged email to friends and family > typically don't use ESPs for that. We are an ESP that provides support for cPanel, o365, g suite, kerio, sendmail, and exchange. We have a wide variety of customers and mail streams. And one of the complaints was 109 false positives of a person sending news articles to a group of friends. Anyway, stay safe! regards, KAM ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [External] Re: Horrible week for email deliverability - Looking for help with RackSpace/Emailsrvr
Messages of all type but not a single feedback loop complaint. These are definitely FPs as I disagree with your statement that a notice about COVID-19 from someone who signed up to a list would be false positives. ?? These are confirmed, opt-in customer / community lists. Things like Fire Department staff and Knights of Columbus member lists. Oh, OK. If the mail has a clear relation to what the users signed up for, you're right, it's FP's As I'm sure you're aware, we've seen way too much spam from people who imagine that COVID is an excuse to reanimate zombie lists. Regards, John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [External] Re: Horrible week for email deliverability - Looking for help with RackSpace/Emailsrvr
On 3/26/20 09:45, Kevin A. McGrail via mailop wrote: On 3/26/2020 12:37 PM, John Levine wrote: Do you know what your customers are sending? If it's blasts of "hey person who visited our web site eight years ago, we're very concerned about COVID and we're washing our hands and here's a coupon", they're not false positives. Hi John, Messages of all type but not a single feedback loop complaint. These are definitely FPs as I disagree with your statement that a notice about COVID-19 from someone who signed up to a list would be false positives. John's message was on point. I'm seeing quite a bit of spam of the exact nature he described. It's from outfits thousands of miles away where I made a one-off online purchase or inquiry many years ago and haven't heard from since. They suddenly feel the urge to let me know that their retail store in BF Egypt is closed and that they're washing their hands. These are confirmed, opt-in customer / community lists. Things like Fire Department staff and Knights of Columbus member lists. If the same ESP and IP address is used for these as well as the kind of cruft John described, they're likely to wind up filtered, and IMHO rightly so. Most of what's causing issues seems to be politically charged emails going to friends and family. And fatigue on how XYZ place is dealing with the virus. It's primarily fatigue on how XYZ place is dealing with the virus where the recipient hasn't heard from XYZ place in the better part of a decade. People sending politically charged email to friends and family typically don't use ESPs for that. -- Jay Hennigan - j...@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] [External] Re: Horrible week for email deliverability - Looking for help with RackSpace/Emailsrvr
On 3/26/2020 12:37 PM, John Levine wrote: > In article <62e55123-d1d0-f67b-9d03-191c8caaa...@pccc.com> you write: > >> We're a small ESP but respected and vigilant anti-spam community >> members. However, our mail volume is through the roof because of the >> pandemic and we're seeing false positive issues with deliverability. > Do you know what your customers are sending? If it's blasts of "hey > person who visited our web site eight years ago, we're very concerned > about COVID and we're washing our hands and here's a coupon", they're > not false positives. Hi John, Messages of all type but not a single feedback loop complaint. These are definitely FPs as I disagree with your statement that a notice about COVID-19 from someone who signed up to a list would be false positives. These are confirmed, opt-in customer / community lists. Things like Fire Department staff and Knights of Columbus member lists. Most of what's causing issues seems to be politically charged emails going to friends and family. And fatigue on how XYZ place is dealing with the virus. But we are also seeing things like Board messages for First Responders getting marked as spam which is insane. People are just overwhelmed and volumes are high so it's less a blocking issue and more a rate-limiting issue. I fear we are seeing a LOT of "I'll click the spam box to try and clean up my mailbox" behavior. Especially since most of the issues we are seeing are with freemail providers. I think a lot of AI is going bonkers with just the surge in content. Regards, KAM ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
