Re: [mailop] Does gmail accept unicode character in From domain? I don't think so

2023-03-04 Thread Bastian Blank via mailop 
On Thu, Mar 02, 2023 at 04:38:16PM -0700, Alex Burch via mailop wrote:
> I am using unicode in the From: not the MAIL FROM. Do you have to specify
> it SMTPUTF8 in the MAIL FROM to use it in the From header? I don't see
> anything about that here: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6531

Without SMTPUTF8 no standard allows unicode in the e-mail address in
headers.

> I was under the impression that if the client offered SMTPUTF8 extension
> then you could go ahead and use unicode in the headers like From.

No.

| If the envelope or message being sent requires the capabilities of
| the SMTPUTF8 extension, the SMTPUTF8-aware SMTP client MUST supply
| the SMTPUTF8 parameter with the MAIL command.

Bastian

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Re: [mailop] Does gmail accept unicode character in From domain? I don't think so

2023-03-03 Thread Brandon Long via mailop 
It's the from address they're talking about, it means they can't use an EAI
from address for these cases, they would need to either not send or have a
fallback non-EAI address for the messages.

Brandon

On Fri, Mar 3, 2023 at 12:37 PM Ángel via mailop  wrote:

> On 2023-03-03 at 09:37 -0700, Alex Burch via mailop wrote:
> > We are an ESP and we have a lot of customers who send with characters
> > like ü or á, usually in the local part but occasionally in the
> > domain. I think if we converted all from addresses to pure ascii
> > punycode, we'd solve our problems rather than trying to keep them
> > unicode and rely on SMTPUTF8 working. I see Yahoo does not even offer
> > SMTPUTF8
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Alex
>
> If Yahoo does not support SMTPUTF8, that points to the provided EAI
> address being invalid for that domain.
>
>
>
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Re: [mailop] Does gmail accept unicode character in From domain? I don't think so

2023-03-03 Thread Ángel via mailop 
On 2023-03-03 at 09:37 -0700, Alex Burch via mailop wrote:
> We are an ESP and we have a lot of customers who send with characters
> like ü or á, usually in the local part but occasionally in the
> domain. I think if we converted all from addresses to pure ascii
> punycode, we'd solve our problems rather than trying to keep them
> unicode and rely on SMTPUTF8 working. I see Yahoo does not even offer
> SMTPUTF8
> 
> Thanks,
> Alex

If Yahoo does not support SMTPUTF8, that points to the provided EAI
address being invalid for that domain.



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Re: [mailop] Does gmail accept unicode character in From domain? I don't think so

2023-03-03 Thread John R Levine via mailop 
It occurs to me that if you only have a handful of addresses with accented 
Latin characters, they are probably typos, not real addresses.


Unless you're sending mail to south or southeast Asia, just get rid of 
them.


On Fri, 3 Mar 2023, Alex Burch wrote:


Thanks everyone. Is there any reason not to just always use punycode for
the domain and keep it pure ascii? Seems safer that way. Are there any
known risks to doing that?

About swaks, there is an open MR to add SMTPUTF8 support:
https://github.com/jetmore

If John Jetmore is here, please merge that sucker!

Thanks,
Alex


--

Alexander Burch
ActiveCampaign / Senior Deliverability Engineer
abu...@activecampaign.com
1 North Dearborn St Suite 500, Chicago IL, 60602








On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 6:20 PM John Levine  wrote:


It appears that Alex Burch via mailop  said:

-=-=-=-=-=-
-=-=-=-=-=-

I am using unicode in the From: not the MAIL FROM. Do you have to specify
it SMTPUTF8 in the MAIL FROM to use it in the From header? I don't see
anything about that here:

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6531__;!!JIZ-LZtDGnv5HBqN_A!LLHjvWO9Lj3NLPOW2WO4wfuIRc6jsmEppjd-E6-oOHDWAguRDF1IVTyo6F7qheRN7lfhCKHmFEIrsWFs$

See section 3.6 which refers to an "internationalized message" and RFC
6532 which explains what that means. It roughly means you can have
UTF-8 in the headers.


I was under the impression that if the client offered SMTPUTF8 extension
then you could go ahead and use unicode in the headers like From.


You can, but you have to put the SMTPUTF8 parameter on the MAIL FROM to say
it's an internationalized message.

I did a bunch of EAI mail tests for ICANN's UASG and Gmail passed most of
them.
If you use the correct envelope and headers, it'll work.

Someone else asserted that nobody handes Unicode domain names, and he is
wrong,
although the have to be encoded as A-labels when you do the DNS lookup, as
described in RFCs 5894 and 5895.

R's,
John







Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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Re: [mailop] Does gmail accept unicode character in From domain? I don't think so

2023-03-03 Thread John R Levine via mailop 

We are an ESP and we have a lot of customers who send with characters like
ü or á, usually in the local part but occasionally in the domain. I think
if we converted all from addresses to pure ascii punycode, we'd solve our
problems rather than trying to keep them unicode and rely on SMTPUTF8
working.


If an address has ü or á in the local part, it is an EAI address and you 
cannot "convert it to punycode."  Domains have A-label versions but local 
parts do not.



I see Yahoo does not even offer SMTPUTF8


Right, they're behind the curve.  Gmail and Microsoft do and their support 
is pretty good.


Sounds like you should either go to the modest effort to make SMTPUTF8 
sending work, or go through your lists and delete the non-ASCII addresses 
since they'll just bounce or get lost.





Thanks,
Alex


--

Alexander Burch
ActiveCampaign / Senior Deliverability Engineer
abu...@activecampaign.com
1 North Dearborn St Suite 500, Chicago IL, 60602








On Fri, Mar 3, 2023 at 9:32 AM John R Levine  wrote:


Thanks everyone. Is there any reason not to just always use punycode for
the domain and keep it pure ascii? Seems safer that way. Are there any
known risks to doing that?


"Always" in what context?  The whole point of IDNs and EAI is so that
people who don't speak English can use mail addresses they can read.

If you mean in your lists of addresses to send to, sure you can use
A-labels (the ones that contain punycode) and it'll work, although if the
local parts have UTF-8 characters, you still have to do SMTPUTF8 so it's
not much of a shortcut.

Most of the people with EAI addresses are in India, Thailand, and other
parts of south and east Asia.  If you don't do a lot of business there,
you don't need to worry about them.

R's,
John



About swaks, there is an open MR to add SMTPUTF8 support:


https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/jetmore__;!!JIZ-LZtDGnv5HBqN_A!MykNXx6yo6uaoX3D_3VQ1iI9p1jeUkSw6Rl62hNqBo1YB1pKliY2BMyPv3L5IAND_HKUjZ2XbsMeFi_m$


If John Jetmore is here, please merge that sucker!

Thanks,
Alex


--

Alexander Burch
ActiveCampaign / Senior Deliverability Engineer
abu...@activecampaign.com
1 North Dearborn St Suite 500, Chicago IL, 60602
<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.facebook.com/activecampaign__;!!JIZ-LZtDGnv5HBqN_A!MykNXx6yo6uaoX3D_3VQ1iI9p1jeUkSw6Rl62hNqBo1YB1pKliY2BMyPv3L5IAND_HKUjZ2XbqfZAr-s$


<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.twitter.com/activecampaign__;!!JIZ-LZtDGnv5HBqN_A!MykNXx6yo6uaoX3D_3VQ1iI9p1jeUkSw6Rl62hNqBo1YB1pKliY2BMyPv3L5IAND_HKUjZ2Xbna6n5jx$


<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/company/activecampaign-inc-__;!!JIZ-LZtDGnv5HBqN_A!MykNXx6yo6uaoX3D_3VQ1iI9p1jeUkSw6Rl62hNqBo1YB1pKliY2BMyPv3L5IAND_HKUjZ2Xbot0HO8K$


<

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://plus.google.com/107063868317743606466__;!!JIZ-LZtDGnv5HBqN_A!MykNXx6yo6uaoX3D_3VQ1iI9p1jeUkSw6Rl62hNqBo1YB1pKliY2BMyPv3L5IAND_HKUjZ2Xbvl4yHSI$






On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 6:20 PM John Levine  wrote:


It appears that Alex Burch via mailop  said:

-=-=-=-=-=-
-=-=-=-=-=-

I am using unicode in the From: not the MAIL FROM. Do you have to

specify

it SMTPUTF8 in the MAIL FROM to use it in the From header? I don't see
anything about that here:



https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6531__;!!JIZ-LZtDGnv5HBqN_A!LLHjvWO9Lj3NLPOW2WO4wfuIRc6jsmEppjd-E6-oOHDWAguRDF1IVTyo6F7qheRN7lfhCKHmFEIrsWFs$


See section 3.6 which refers to an "internationalized message" and RFC
6532 which explains what that means. It roughly means you can have
UTF-8 in the headers.


I was under the impression that if the client offered SMTPUTF8

extension

then you could go ahead and use unicode in the headers like From.


You can, but you have to put the SMTPUTF8 parameter on the MAIL FROM to

say

it's an internationalized message.

I did a bunch of EAI mail tests for ICANN's UASG and Gmail passed most

of

them.
If you use the correct envelope and headers, it'll work.

Someone else asserted that nobody handes Unicode domain names, and he is
wrong,
although the have to be encoded as A-labels when you do the DNS lookup,

as

described in RFCs 5894 and 5895.

R's,
John







Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail.
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jl.ly__;!!JIZ-LZtDGnv5HBqN_A!MykNXx6yo6uaoX3D_3VQ1iI9p1jeUkSw6Rl62hNqBo1YB1pKliY2BMyPv3L5IAND_HKUjZ2Xbt5FsPoR$





Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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Re: [mailop] Does gmail accept unicode character in From domain? I don't think so

2023-03-03 Thread Benny Pedersen via mailop 

Alex Burch via mailop skrev den 2023-03-03 17:22:


If John Jetmore is here, please merge that sucker!


as in posting to public maillist with big html signature ?
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Re: [mailop] Does gmail accept unicode character in From domain? I don't think so

2023-03-03 Thread Alex Burch via mailop 
We are an ESP and we have a lot of customers who send with characters like
ü or á, usually in the local part but occasionally in the domain. I think
if we converted all from addresses to pure ascii punycode, we'd solve our
problems rather than trying to keep them unicode and rely on SMTPUTF8
working. I see Yahoo does not even offer SMTPUTF8

Thanks,
Alex


--

Alexander Burch
ActiveCampaign / Senior Deliverability Engineer
abu...@activecampaign.com
1 North Dearborn St Suite 500, Chicago IL, 60602








On Fri, Mar 3, 2023 at 9:32 AM John R Levine  wrote:

> > Thanks everyone. Is there any reason not to just always use punycode for
> > the domain and keep it pure ascii? Seems safer that way. Are there any
> > known risks to doing that?
>
> "Always" in what context?  The whole point of IDNs and EAI is so that
> people who don't speak English can use mail addresses they can read.
>
> If you mean in your lists of addresses to send to, sure you can use
> A-labels (the ones that contain punycode) and it'll work, although if the
> local parts have UTF-8 characters, you still have to do SMTPUTF8 so it's
> not much of a shortcut.
>
> Most of the people with EAI addresses are in India, Thailand, and other
> parts of south and east Asia.  If you don't do a lot of business there,
> you don't need to worry about them.
>
> R's,
> John
>
> >
> > About swaks, there is an open MR to add SMTPUTF8 support:
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/jetmore__;!!JIZ-LZtDGnv5HBqN_A!MykNXx6yo6uaoX3D_3VQ1iI9p1jeUkSw6Rl62hNqBo1YB1pKliY2BMyPv3L5IAND_HKUjZ2XbsMeFi_m$
> >
> > If John Jetmore is here, please merge that sucker!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Alex
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Alexander Burch
> > ActiveCampaign / Senior Deliverability Engineer
> > abu...@activecampaign.com
> > 1 North Dearborn St Suite 500, Chicago IL, 60602
> > <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.facebook.com/activecampaign__;!!JIZ-LZtDGnv5HBqN_A!MykNXx6yo6uaoX3D_3VQ1iI9p1jeUkSw6Rl62hNqBo1YB1pKliY2BMyPv3L5IAND_HKUjZ2XbqfZAr-s$
> >
> > <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.twitter.com/activecampaign__;!!JIZ-LZtDGnv5HBqN_A!MykNXx6yo6uaoX3D_3VQ1iI9p1jeUkSw6Rl62hNqBo1YB1pKliY2BMyPv3L5IAND_HKUjZ2Xbna6n5jx$
> >
> > <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/company/activecampaign-inc-__;!!JIZ-LZtDGnv5HBqN_A!MykNXx6yo6uaoX3D_3VQ1iI9p1jeUkSw6Rl62hNqBo1YB1pKliY2BMyPv3L5IAND_HKUjZ2Xbot0HO8K$
> >
> > <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://plus.google.com/107063868317743606466__;!!JIZ-LZtDGnv5HBqN_A!MykNXx6yo6uaoX3D_3VQ1iI9p1jeUkSw6Rl62hNqBo1YB1pKliY2BMyPv3L5IAND_HKUjZ2Xbvl4yHSI$
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 6:20 PM John Levine  wrote:
> >
> >> It appears that Alex Burch via mailop  said:
> >>> -=-=-=-=-=-
> >>> -=-=-=-=-=-
> >>>
> >>> I am using unicode in the From: not the MAIL FROM. Do you have to
> specify
> >>> it SMTPUTF8 in the MAIL FROM to use it in the From header? I don't see
> >>> anything about that here:
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6531__;!!JIZ-LZtDGnv5HBqN_A!LLHjvWO9Lj3NLPOW2WO4wfuIRc6jsmEppjd-E6-oOHDWAguRDF1IVTyo6F7qheRN7lfhCKHmFEIrsWFs$
> >>
> >> See section 3.6 which refers to an "internationalized message" and RFC
> >> 6532 which explains what that means. It roughly means you can have
> >> UTF-8 in the headers.
> >>
> >>> I was under the impression that if the client offered SMTPUTF8
> extension
> >>> then you could go ahead and use unicode in the headers like From.
> >>
> >> You can, but you have to put the SMTPUTF8 parameter on the MAIL FROM to
> say
> >> it's an internationalized message.
> >>
> >> I did a bunch of EAI mail tests for ICANN's UASG and Gmail passed most
> of
> >> them.
> >> If you use the correct envelope and headers, it'll work.
> >>
> >> Someone else asserted that nobody handes Unicode domain names, and he is
> >> wrong,
> >> although the have to be encoded as A-labels when you do the DNS lookup,
> as
> >> described in RFCs 5894 and 5895.
> >>
> >> R's,
> >> John
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
> Regards,
> John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
> Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail.
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jl.ly__;!!JIZ-LZtDGnv5HBqN_A!MykNXx6yo6uaoX3D_3VQ1iI9p1jeUkSw6Rl62hNqBo1YB1pKliY2BMyPv3L5IAND_HKUjZ2Xbt5FsPoR$
>
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Re: [mailop] Does gmail accept unicode character in From domain? I don't think so

2023-03-03 Thread John R Levine via mailop 

Thanks everyone. Is there any reason not to just always use punycode for
the domain and keep it pure ascii? Seems safer that way. Are there any
known risks to doing that?


"Always" in what context?  The whole point of IDNs and EAI is so that 
people who don't speak English can use mail addresses they can read.


If you mean in your lists of addresses to send to, sure you can use 
A-labels (the ones that contain punycode) and it'll work, although if the 
local parts have UTF-8 characters, you still have to do SMTPUTF8 so it's 
not much of a shortcut.


Most of the people with EAI addresses are in India, Thailand, and other 
parts of south and east Asia.  If you don't do a lot of business there, 
you don't need to worry about them.


R's,
John



About swaks, there is an open MR to add SMTPUTF8 support:
https://github.com/jetmore

If John Jetmore is here, please merge that sucker!

Thanks,
Alex


--

Alexander Burch
ActiveCampaign / Senior Deliverability Engineer
abu...@activecampaign.com
1 North Dearborn St Suite 500, Chicago IL, 60602








On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 6:20 PM John Levine  wrote:


It appears that Alex Burch via mailop  said:

-=-=-=-=-=-
-=-=-=-=-=-

I am using unicode in the From: not the MAIL FROM. Do you have to specify
it SMTPUTF8 in the MAIL FROM to use it in the From header? I don't see
anything about that here:

https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6531__;!!JIZ-LZtDGnv5HBqN_A!LLHjvWO9Lj3NLPOW2WO4wfuIRc6jsmEppjd-E6-oOHDWAguRDF1IVTyo6F7qheRN7lfhCKHmFEIrsWFs$

See section 3.6 which refers to an "internationalized message" and RFC
6532 which explains what that means. It roughly means you can have
UTF-8 in the headers.


I was under the impression that if the client offered SMTPUTF8 extension
then you could go ahead and use unicode in the headers like From.


You can, but you have to put the SMTPUTF8 parameter on the MAIL FROM to say
it's an internationalized message.

I did a bunch of EAI mail tests for ICANN's UASG and Gmail passed most of
them.
If you use the correct envelope and headers, it'll work.

Someone else asserted that nobody handes Unicode domain names, and he is
wrong,
although the have to be encoded as A-labels when you do the DNS lookup, as
described in RFCs 5894 and 5895.

R's,
John







Regards,
John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
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Re: [mailop] Does gmail accept unicode character in From domain? I don't think so

2023-03-03 Thread Alex Burch via mailop 
Thanks everyone. Is there any reason not to just always use punycode for
the domain and keep it pure ascii? Seems safer that way. Are there any
known risks to doing that?

About swaks, there is an open MR to add SMTPUTF8 support:
https://github.com/jetmore

If John Jetmore is here, please merge that sucker!

Thanks,
Alex


--

Alexander Burch
ActiveCampaign / Senior Deliverability Engineer
abu...@activecampaign.com
1 North Dearborn St Suite 500, Chicago IL, 60602








On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 6:20 PM John Levine  wrote:

> It appears that Alex Burch via mailop  said:
> >-=-=-=-=-=-
> >-=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> >I am using unicode in the From: not the MAIL FROM. Do you have to specify
> >it SMTPUTF8 in the MAIL FROM to use it in the From header? I don't see
> >anything about that here:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6531__;!!JIZ-LZtDGnv5HBqN_A!LLHjvWO9Lj3NLPOW2WO4wfuIRc6jsmEppjd-E6-oOHDWAguRDF1IVTyo6F7qheRN7lfhCKHmFEIrsWFs$
>
> See section 3.6 which refers to an "internationalized message" and RFC
> 6532 which explains what that means. It roughly means you can have
> UTF-8 in the headers.
>
> >I was under the impression that if the client offered SMTPUTF8 extension
> >then you could go ahead and use unicode in the headers like From.
>
> You can, but you have to put the SMTPUTF8 parameter on the MAIL FROM to say
> it's an internationalized message.
>
> I did a bunch of EAI mail tests for ICANN's UASG and Gmail passed most of
> them.
> If you use the correct envelope and headers, it'll work.
>
> Someone else asserted that nobody handes Unicode domain names, and he is
> wrong,
> although the have to be encoded as A-labels when you do the DNS lookup, as
> described in RFCs 5894 and 5895.
>
> R's,
> John
>
>
>
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Re: [mailop] Does gmail accept unicode character in From domain? I don't think so

2023-03-02 Thread John Levine via mailop 
It appears that Alex Burch via mailop  said:
>-=-=-=-=-=-
>-=-=-=-=-=-
>
>I am using unicode in the From: not the MAIL FROM. Do you have to specify
>it SMTPUTF8 in the MAIL FROM to use it in the From header? I don't see
>anything about that here: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6531

See section 3.6 which refers to an "internationalized message" and RFC
6532 which explains what that means. It roughly means you can have
UTF-8 in the headers.

>I was under the impression that if the client offered SMTPUTF8 extension
>then you could go ahead and use unicode in the headers like From.

You can, but you have to put the SMTPUTF8 parameter on the MAIL FROM to say
it's an internationalized message.

I did a bunch of EAI mail tests for ICANN's UASG and Gmail passed most of them.
If you use the correct envelope and headers, it'll work.

Someone else asserted that nobody handes Unicode domain names, and he is wrong,
although the have to be encoded as A-labels when you do the DNS lookup, as
described in RFCs 5894 and 5895.

R's,
John


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Re: [mailop] Does gmail accept unicode character in From domain? I don't think so

2023-03-02 Thread Benny Pedersen via mailop 

Alex Burch via mailop skrev den 2023-03-03 00:38:

I am using unicode in the From: not the MAIL FROM. Do you have to
specify it SMTPUTF8 in the MAIL FROM to use it in the From header? I
don't see anything about that here:
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6531

I was under the impression that if the client offered SMTPUTF8
extension then you could go ahead and use unicode in the headers like
From.


SMTPUTF8 is not any mail headers, envelope senders can only imho be idn, 
not utf8 yet, there is no dns servers that handle domains with utf8, so 
it can only be localpart if any


for the mta part and dns, mta have to map both utf8 and idn to same 
result else it would be another domain


my joke is that if computers was 32bit in the old days, we would not 
have seen all trying to make another encoding standard that breaks 
another standard


dont know if i am completly wroung or not, dont need it anyway :)
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Re: [mailop] Does gmail accept unicode character in From domain? I don't think so

2023-03-02 Thread Brandon Long via mailop 
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6532#section-3
> Also note that messages in this format require the use of the
> SMTPUTF8 extension [RFC6531] to be transferred via SMTP.

On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 3:38 PM Alex Burch  wrote:

> I am using unicode in the From: not the MAIL FROM. Do you have to specify
> it SMTPUTF8 in the MAIL FROM to use it in the From header? I don't see
> anything about that here: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6531
>
> I was under the impression that if the client offered SMTPUTF8 extension
> then you could go ahead and use unicode in the headers like From.
>
> Thanks,
> Alex
>
>
> --
>
> Alexander Burch
> ActiveCampaign / Senior Deliverability Engineer
> abu...@activecampaign.com
> 1 North Dearborn St Suite 500, Chicago IL, 60602
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 4:17 PM Brandon Long  wrote:
>
>> Did you specify SMTPUTF8 on the MAIL FROM command?  Is swaks that smart?
>>
>> doesn't look like it.
>> https://github.com/jetmore/swaks/blob/6bc61708489dc9789246e8fe58d32a0ff4fec8f4/swaks#L1055
>> 
>>
>> Our validation cares, though it uses the same error message in either
>> case, so I guess it should say RFC6532 if you do specify an invalid message
>> with SMTPUTF8, but your example isn't doing that.
>>
>> Brandon
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 2:36 PM Alex Burch via mailop 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> RFC 6532 indicates that you can use unicode characters like an umlaut ü
>>> (U+00FC) if the receiving MTA supports SMTPUTF8 extension:
>>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6532
>>> 
>>>
>>> But when I test this to Gmail its rejected:
>>>
>>> swaks -p 25 -f 't...@acems1.com' --h-From: '"Alex" '
>>> --to 'acaburchte...@gmail.com' --h-Subject "Umlaut" --server "
>>> gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com
>>> "
>>> --server="gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com
>>> 
>>> "
>>>
>>> <** 550-5.7.1 [54.242.119.206] Our system has detected that this message
>>> is not RFC
>>> <** 550-5.7.1 5322 compliant:
>>> <** 550-5.7.1 'From' header has non compliant domain name.
>>> <** 550-5.7.1 To reduce the amount of spam sent to Gmail, this message
>>> has been
>>> <** 550-5.7.1 blocked. Please visit
>>> <** 550-5.7.1  https://support.google.com/mail/?p=RfcMessageNonCompliant
>>> 
>>> <** 550 5.7.1  and review RFC 5322 specifications for more information.
>>> x12-20020a0ce24c00b0053428216ed9si277098qvl.216 - gsmtp
>>>
>>> Does Gmail not support RFC 6532 which states a unicode character should
>>> be allowed in the From header? The bounce refers to RFC 5322 which is prior
>>> to 6532. So maybe they are still strictly respecting the older 5322?
>>>
>>> It does work if I use punycode: aburch@ke...@xn--dber-0ra.io
>>> 
>>>
>>> Which aligns with Google docs here that say "Your domain name only has
>>> numbers, letters, dots, or hyphens"
>>> https://support.google.com/mail/forum/K7un8RUe15zAgzGbc4/?hl=en=%23!topic%2Fgmail%2Fe15zAgzGbc4%3Bcontext-place%3Dforum%2Fgmail
>>> 
>>>
>>> But here they also say "Gmail (and shortly, Calendar) will recognize
>>> addresses that contain accented or non-Latin characters. This means Gmail
>>> users can send emails to, and receive emails from, people who have these
>>> characters in their email addresses."
>>> https://blog.google/products/gmail/a-first-step-toward-more-global-email/
>>>

Re: [mailop] Does gmail accept unicode character in From domain? I don't think so

2023-03-02 Thread Alex Burch via mailop 
I am using unicode in the From: not the MAIL FROM. Do you have to specify
it SMTPUTF8 in the MAIL FROM to use it in the From header? I don't see
anything about that here: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6531

I was under the impression that if the client offered SMTPUTF8 extension
then you could go ahead and use unicode in the headers like From.

Thanks,
Alex


--

Alexander Burch
ActiveCampaign / Senior Deliverability Engineer
abu...@activecampaign.com
1 North Dearborn St Suite 500, Chicago IL, 60602








On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 4:17 PM Brandon Long  wrote:

> Did you specify SMTPUTF8 on the MAIL FROM command?  Is swaks that smart?
>
> doesn't look like it.
> https://github.com/jetmore/swaks/blob/6bc61708489dc9789246e8fe58d32a0ff4fec8f4/swaks#L1055
> 
>
> Our validation cares, though it uses the same error message in either
> case, so I guess it should say RFC6532 if you do specify an invalid message
> with SMTPUTF8, but your example isn't doing that.
>
> Brandon
>
> On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 2:36 PM Alex Burch via mailop 
> wrote:
>
>> RFC 6532 indicates that you can use unicode characters like an umlaut ü
>> (U+00FC) if the receiving MTA supports SMTPUTF8 extension:
>> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6532
>> 
>>
>> But when I test this to Gmail its rejected:
>>
>> swaks -p 25 -f 't...@acems1.com' --h-From: '"Alex" '
>> --to 'acaburchte...@gmail.com' --h-Subject "Umlaut" --server "
>> gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com
>> "
>> --server="gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com
>> 
>> "
>>
>> <** 550-5.7.1 [54.242.119.206] Our system has detected that this message
>> is not RFC
>> <** 550-5.7.1 5322 compliant:
>> <** 550-5.7.1 'From' header has non compliant domain name.
>> <** 550-5.7.1 To reduce the amount of spam sent to Gmail, this message
>> has been
>> <** 550-5.7.1 blocked. Please visit
>> <** 550-5.7.1  https://support.google.com/mail/?p=RfcMessageNonCompliant
>> 
>> <** 550 5.7.1  and review RFC 5322 specifications for more information.
>> x12-20020a0ce24c00b0053428216ed9si277098qvl.216 - gsmtp
>>
>> Does Gmail not support RFC 6532 which states a unicode character should
>> be allowed in the From header? The bounce refers to RFC 5322 which is prior
>> to 6532. So maybe they are still strictly respecting the older 5322?
>>
>> It does work if I use punycode: aburch@ke...@xn--dber-0ra.io
>> 
>>
>> Which aligns with Google docs here that say "Your domain name only has
>> numbers, letters, dots, or hyphens"
>> https://support.google.com/mail/forum/K7un8RUe15zAgzGbc4/?hl=en=%23!topic%2Fgmail%2Fe15zAgzGbc4%3Bcontext-place%3Dforum%2Fgmail
>> 
>>
>> But here they also say "Gmail (and shortly, Calendar) will recognize
>> addresses that contain accented or non-Latin characters. This means Gmail
>> users can send emails to, and receive emails from, people who have these
>> characters in their email addresses."
>> https://blog.google/products/gmail/a-first-step-toward-more-global-email/
>> 
>>
>> So which one is it?!? Do they support unicode characters in a domain/From
>> header? In reality no, but they seem to hint that they intend to.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Alex
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Alexander Burch
>> ActiveCampaign / Senior Deliverability Engineer
>>

Re: [mailop] Does gmail accept unicode character in From domain? I don't think so

2023-03-02 Thread Brandon Long via mailop 
Did you specify SMTPUTF8 on the MAIL FROM command?  Is swaks that smart?

doesn't look like it.
https://github.com/jetmore/swaks/blob/6bc61708489dc9789246e8fe58d32a0ff4fec8f4/swaks#L1055

Our validation cares, though it uses the same error message in either case,
so I guess it should say RFC6532 if you do specify an invalid message with
SMTPUTF8, but your example isn't doing that.

Brandon

On Thu, Mar 2, 2023 at 2:36 PM Alex Burch via mailop 
wrote:

> RFC 6532 indicates that you can use unicode characters like an umlaut ü
> (U+00FC) if the receiving MTA supports SMTPUTF8 extension:
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6532
>
> But when I test this to Gmail its rejected:
>
> swaks -p 25 -f 't...@acems1.com' --h-From: '"Alex" ' --to
> 'acaburchte...@gmail.com' --h-Subject "Umlaut" --server "
> gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com" --server="gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com"
>
> <** 550-5.7.1 [54.242.119.206] Our system has detected that this message
> is not RFC
> <** 550-5.7.1 5322 compliant:
> <** 550-5.7.1 'From' header has non compliant domain name.
> <** 550-5.7.1 To reduce the amount of spam sent to Gmail, this message has
> been
> <** 550-5.7.1 blocked. Please visit
> <** 550-5.7.1  https://support.google.com/mail/?p=RfcMessageNonCompliant
> <** 550 5.7.1  and review RFC 5322 specifications for more information.
> x12-20020a0ce24c00b0053428216ed9si277098qvl.216 - gsmtp
>
> Does Gmail not support RFC 6532 which states a unicode character should be
> allowed in the From header? The bounce refers to RFC 5322 which is prior to
> 6532. So maybe they are still strictly respecting the older 5322?
>
> It does work if I use punycode: aburch@ke...@xn--dber-0ra.io
>
> Which aligns with Google docs here that say "Your domain name only has
> numbers, letters, dots, or hyphens"
> https://support.google.com/mail/forum/K7un8RUe15zAgzGbc4/?hl=en=%23!topic%2Fgmail%2Fe15zAgzGbc4%3Bcontext-place%3Dforum%2Fgmail
>
> But here they also say "Gmail (and shortly, Calendar) will recognize
> addresses that contain accented or non-Latin characters. This means Gmail
> users can send emails to, and receive emails from, people who have these
> characters in their email addresses."
> https://blog.google/products/gmail/a-first-step-toward-more-global-email/
>
> So which one is it?!? Do they support unicode characters in a domain/From
> header? In reality no, but they seem to hint that they intend to.
>
> Thanks,
> Alex
>
>
> --
>
> Alexander Burch
> ActiveCampaign / Senior Deliverability Engineer
> abu...@activecampaign.com
> 1 North Dearborn St Suite 500, Chicago IL, 60602
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
> 
> ___
> mailop mailing list
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> https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop
>
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[mailop] Does gmail accept unicode character in From domain? I don't think so

2023-03-02 Thread Alex Burch via mailop 
RFC 6532 indicates that you can use unicode characters like an umlaut ü
(U+00FC) if the receiving MTA supports SMTPUTF8 extension:
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6532

But when I test this to Gmail its rejected:

swaks -p 25 -f 't...@acems1.com' --h-From: '"Alex" ' --to '
acaburchte...@gmail.com' --h-Subject "Umlaut" --server "
gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com" --server="gmail-smtp-in.l.google.com"

<** 550-5.7.1 [54.242.119.206] Our system has detected that this message is
not RFC
<** 550-5.7.1 5322 compliant:
<** 550-5.7.1 'From' header has non compliant domain name.
<** 550-5.7.1 To reduce the amount of spam sent to Gmail, this message has
been
<** 550-5.7.1 blocked. Please visit
<** 550-5.7.1  https://support.google.com/mail/?p=RfcMessageNonCompliant
<** 550 5.7.1  and review RFC 5322 specifications for more information.
x12-20020a0ce24c00b0053428216ed9si277098qvl.216 - gsmtp

Does Gmail not support RFC 6532 which states a unicode character should be
allowed in the From header? The bounce refers to RFC 5322 which is prior to
6532. So maybe they are still strictly respecting the older 5322?

It does work if I use punycode: aburch@ke...@xn--dber-0ra.io

Which aligns with Google docs here that say "Your domain name only has
numbers, letters, dots, or hyphens"
https://support.google.com/mail/forum/K7un8RUe15zAgzGbc4/?hl=en=%23!topic%2Fgmail%2Fe15zAgzGbc4%3Bcontext-place%3Dforum%2Fgmail

But here they also say "Gmail (and shortly, Calendar) will recognize
addresses that contain accented or non-Latin characters. This means Gmail
users can send emails to, and receive emails from, people who have these
characters in their email addresses."
https://blog.google/products/gmail/a-first-step-toward-more-global-email/

So which one is it?!? Do they support unicode characters in a domain/From
header? In reality no, but they seem to hint that they intend to.

Thanks,
Alex


--

Alexander Burch
ActiveCampaign / Senior Deliverability Engineer
abu...@activecampaign.com
1 North Dearborn St Suite 500, Chicago IL, 60602






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mailop mailing list
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https://list.mailop.org/listinfo/mailop