Re: [mailop] Feedback Loops and Sub-Domains

[Todd Herr via mailop]

On Fri, Feb 10, 2023 at 12:02 AM Grant Taylor via mailop 
wrote:

> On 2/9/23 2:21 AM, Gellner, Oliver via mailop wrote:
> > In my experience the spam report button is not only used as a sort
> > of fast unsubscribe, but also as a replacement for the delete button.
>
> Knowing how unreliable training the end user is, I wonder if it's worth
> altering the equation wherein we (as the email industry) train email
> client programs to conditionally react differently when the
> make-this-message-go-away button is pressed.  Wherein if the message is
> obviously ham, delete the message or if the message is obviously spam,
> report the message, or optionally ask what to do if it's not obvious and
> default to delete the message.
>
>
This is rather a bit of a challenge, due to the fact that the "This Is
Spam" button is typically only available to the mailbox holder for messages
not already in the spam folder.

How would you propose training a client to distinguish obvious ham from
obvious spam for messages that have been delivered to any folder other than
the spam folder?

-- 

*Todd Herr * | Technical Director, Standards and Ecosystem
*e:* todd.h...@valimail.com
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Re: [mailop] Feedback Loops and Sub-Domains

[Grant Taylor via mailop]

On 2/9/23 2:21 AM, Gellner, Oliver via mailop wrote:
In my experience the spam report button is not only used as a sort 
of fast unsubscribe, but also as a replacement for the delete button.


Knowing how unreliable training the end user is, I wonder if it's worth 
altering the equation wherein we (as the email industry) train email 
client programs to conditionally react differently when the 
make-this-message-go-away button is pressed.  Wherein if the message is 
obviously ham, delete the message or if the message is obviously spam, 
report the message, or optionally ask what to do if it's not obvious and 
default to delete the message.


Alter the equation, sort of like making people remove their ATM / debit 
card before they get cash reduced the number of cards left in machines.


A "Smart Delete" button if you will, similar to the "Smart Reply" button 
that fairly gracefully handles multiple different types of replies.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die



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Re: [mailop] Feedback Loops and Sub-Domains

[Laura Atkins via mailop]

> On 9 Feb 2023, at 09:21, Gellner, Oliver via mailop  wrote:
> 
> On 2023-02-08 22:51, Support 3Hound via mailop wrote:
> 
>> Note that especially on some providers, most user "feel" the reporting as a 
>> sort of "fast unsubscribe"...
> 
> Just as a side note: In my experience the spam report button is not only used 
> as a sort of fast unsubscribe, but also as a replacement for the delete 
> button. We have countless examples of back-and-forth conversations of 
> hand-written messages between friends or relatives which then end up in a 
> FBL. In those cases it is obvious that the reporters do not want to not 
> receive any more messages of the other party, but more probably thought "I 
> have read this email, it can be removed now from my inbox". Who cares whether 
> its moved into the recycle bin, the spam folder or some other place.

This is why complaints is such a noisy metric to use and why many compliance 
teams work on the total volume of complaints rather than working each one 
individually. We know that some of the mail reported as spam isn’t actually 
actionable by the hosting company. This is actually true for the non-FBL 
complaints as well, although those are usually sent by more experienced folks. 
But, sometimes, it’s just not sensible to turn off a customer based on one or 
two complaints. 

> Of course with newsletter or other automated messages you cannot tell whether 
> the reporter wanted to actually mark this email as spam or just wanted to 
> delete it, so you end up unsubscribing them.

And adding the number to reporting so you can identify if this is simply a one 
off or if your customer is behaving badly.

laura 

-- 
The Delivery Experts

Laura Atkins
Word to the Wise
la...@wordtothewise.com 

Email Delivery Blog: http://wordtothewise.com/blog  






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Re: [mailop] Feedback Loops and Sub-Domains

[Gellner, Oliver via mailop]

On 2023-02-08 22:51, Support 3Hound via mailop wrote:

> Note that especially on some providers, most user "feel" the reporting as a 
> sort of "fast unsubscribe"...

Just as a side note: In my experience the spam report button is not only used 
as a sort of fast unsubscribe, but also as a replacement for the delete button. 
We have countless examples of back-and-forth conversations of hand-written 
messages between friends or relatives which then end up in a FBL. In those 
cases it is obvious that the reporters do not want to not receive any more 
messages of the other party, but more probably thought "I have read this email, 
it can be removed now from my inbox". Who cares whether its moved into the 
recycle bin, the spam folder or some other place.

Of course with newsletter or other automated messages you cannot tell whether 
the reporter wanted to actually mark this email as spam or just wanted to 
delete it, so you end up unsubscribing them.

--
BR Oliver


dmTECH GmbH
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Re: [mailop] Feedback Loops and Sub-Domains

[Udeme Ukutt via mailop]

Jeff: what Al, Luca, Suresh & Russell said.

To add/summarize: https://www.m3aawg.org/fbl-resources is a nice start.

Feedback loop formats are IP-based (traditional), aggregated &
domain-based. Validity powers quite a chunk of what's listed on that page,
FWIW.

-Udeme @ LinkedIn

On Wed, Feb 8, 2023 at 12:08 PM Jeff Ginsberg via mailop 
wrote:

> Hello Mailops!!!
>
>
>
> New to the list so any help would be appreciated.
>
>
>
> When setting up feedback loops is it best practice to use abuse@domain as
> the reporting address?
>
> If we use the main domain and a series of sub-domains do I need to setup
> abuse@sub-domains as the reporting address too for each sub or can they
> all forward to the parent abuse@domain?
>
>
>
> Besides the obvious are there any other FBLs I should register for if we
> are mailing globally?
>
>
>
>- Validity FBL
>- Microsoft
>- Google
>- Yahoo
>
>
>
> Any insights welcome.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> *Jeff Ginsberg *
>
> *Email Deliverability Manager  *
>
> jeff.ginsb...@talent.com 
>
> www.talent.com
>
> 416-706-7711
>
>
> 
>
>
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Re: [mailop] Feedback Loops and Sub-Domains

[Al Iverson via mailop]

Good advice from Luca.

As far as reporting address, he’s saying, have an FBL-specific one that feeds 
into automation if possible.
That being said, it can be ONE address for ALL domains/clients, if your 
automation can parse the messages to denote the client and recipient info.
So you could set it up to be fblrepo...@fbl.talent.com 
 for ALL of your clients - no need to worry 
about different domains for different clients.
Thus, you’d register this address for every single FBL for Validity, MSFT, 
Yahoo, etc. (There is no Gmail FBL.)
You might want to do a subdomain like I’ve shown here - “fbl.talent.com 
” so you can bypass any spam filtering that your 
corporate top level domain may enforce.

Cheers,
Al Iverson

> On Feb 8, 2023, at 11:36 AM, Support 3Hound via mailop  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Jeff,
> as the FBL bring back to you (usually in ARF format) every reporting 
> user/mail, I suggest you to "link" the FBL address to an automatic ARF parser 
> that permanently unsubscribe users (maybe following the "one click 
> unsubscribe" header) and give back you a feedback report in order to prevent 
> abuse from customer/user/form-injectors etc...
> 
> Note that especially on some providers, most user "feel" the reporting as a 
> sort of "fast unsubscribe"... (I don't want to scroll the whole mail; I don't 
> want to "investigate" the sender is really who is expected to b; I just trust 
> on my own mailbox provider and click Junk/Spam without loose a second more).
> 
> Based on your mailing practice/amount FBL may send you a lot more daily 
> messages than the expected so, mixing it with the abuse mailbox (typically 
> manually managed to reply to other postmasters) may became an hard work to be 
> handled manually.
> 
> Hope it may help you,
> Luca
> 
> 
> Il 08/02/2023 18:01, Jeff Ginsberg via mailop ha scritto:
>> Hello Mailops!!!
>>  
>> New to the list so any help would be appreciated.
>>  
>> When setting up feedback loops is it best practice to use abuse@domain as 
>> the reporting address?
>> 
>> If we use the main domain and a series of sub-domains do I need to setup 
>> abuse@sub-domains as the reporting address too for each sub or can they all 
>> forward to the parent abuse@domain?
>>  
>> Besides the obvious are there any other FBLs I should register for if we are 
>> mailing globally?
>>  
>> Validity FBL
>> Microsoft
>> Google
>> Yahoo
>> 
>> 
>> Any insights welcome.
>>  
>> Thanks, 
>>  
>> Jeff Ginsberg 
>> Email Deliverability Manager  
>> jeff.ginsb...@talent.com  
>> www.talent.com  
>> 416-706-7711   
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> 
>> 
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Re: [mailop] Feedback Loops and Sub-Domains

[Support 3Hound via mailop]

Hi Jeff,
as the FBL bring back to you (usually in ARF format) every reporting 
user/mail, I suggest you to "link" the FBL address to an automatic ARF 
parser that permanently unsubscribe users (maybe following the "one 
click unsubscribe" header) and give back you a feedback report in order 
to prevent abuse from customer/user/form-injectors etc...


Note that especially on some providers, most user "feel" the reporting 
as a sort of "fast unsubscribe"... (I don't want to scroll the whole 
mail; I don't want to "investigate" the sender is really who is expected 
to b; I just trust on my own mailbox provider and click Junk/Spam 
without loose a second more).


Based on your mailing practice/amount FBL may send you a lot more daily 
messages than the expected so, mixing it with the abuse mailbox 
(typically manually managed to reply to other postmasters) may became an 
hard work to be handled manually.


Hope it may help you,
Luca


Il 08/02/2023 18:01, Jeff Ginsberg via mailop ha scritto:


Hello Mailops!!!

New to the list so any help would be appreciated.

When setting up feedback loops is it best practice to use abuse@domain 
as the reporting address?


If we use the main domain and a series of sub-domains do I need to 
setup abuse@sub-domains as the reporting address too for each sub or 
can they all forward to the parent abuse@domain?


Besides the obvious are there any other FBLs I should register for if 
we are mailing globally?


  * Validity FBL
  * Microsoft
  * Google
  * Yahoo



Any insights welcome.

Thanks,

**

*Jeff Ginsberg *

*Email Deliverability Manager *

jeff.ginsb...@talent.com 

www.talent.com 

416-706-7711 





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Re: [mailop] Feedback Loops and Sub-Domains

[Russell Clemings via mailop]

Comcast is another good one.

On Wed, Feb 8, 2023, 9:08 AM Jeff Ginsberg via mailop 
wrote:

> Hello Mailops!!!
>
>
>
> New to the list so any help would be appreciated.
>
>
>
> When setting up feedback loops is it best practice to use abuse@domain as
> the reporting address?
>
> If we use the main domain and a series of sub-domains do I need to setup
> abuse@sub-domains as the reporting address too for each sub or can they
> all forward to the parent abuse@domain?
>
>
>
> Besides the obvious are there any other FBLs I should register for if we
> are mailing globally?
>
>
>
>- Validity FBL
>- Microsoft
>- Google
>- Yahoo
>
>
>
> Any insights welcome.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> *Jeff Ginsberg *
>
> *Email Deliverability Manager  *
>
> jeff.ginsb...@talent.com 
>
> www.talent.com
>
> 416-706-7711
>
>
> 
>
>
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[mailop] Feedback Loops and Sub-Domains

[Jeff Ginsberg via mailop]

Hello Mailops!!!

New to the list so any help would be appreciated.

When setting up feedback loops is it best practice to use abuse@domain as the 
reporting address?

If we use the main domain and a series of sub-domains do I need to setup 
abuse@sub-domains as the reporting address too for each sub or can they all 
forward to the parent abuse@domain?

Besides the obvious are there any other FBLs I should register for if we are 
mailing globally?


  *   Validity FBL
  *   Microsoft
  *   Google
  *   Yahoo


Any insights welcome.

Thanks,

Jeff Ginsberg
Email Deliverability Manager
jeff.ginsb...@talent.com
www.talent.com
416-706-7711 

[cid:image001.png@01D93BB5.1DFC3E90]

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