Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
I gather that there are technical reasons, and I think I understand them all (per country/region partition of mailboxes and such), but am not certain. Again, it's a hack; I'm not happy with it personally, but that's the way it apparently was designed, and that for cause. Huge mail systems frequently don't work the way we normal mortals would intuitively expect them to. I gather it's now being discussed in some depth if there's not a better way of doing this, but it's not my call. Suffice it to say the complaint has been heard. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool ? -Original Message- From: SM [mailto:s...@elandnews.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 12:39 PM To: Michael Wise ; mailop@mailop.org Subject: Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses Hi Michael, At 12:20 PM 24-01-2018, Michael Wise via mailop wrote: >Hack: an in-elegant solution that one personally doesn't like, but that >appears to work. > >As to the retry interval, I feel a bit out of my depth on that one, and >I guess it all depends on exactly WHY the 452 was thrown, but ... the >implication seems to be that an immediate retry (maybe give it a few >seconds?) would be the preferred way to handle it, maybe with some sort >of exponential back-off? The "immediate retry" could be read as "immediate". From a receiver's perspective, that does not sound like a good idea. Why would the receiver's implementation require segmented delivery? Regards, -sm ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
Yes, it's not volume related. That was the original intent of the code, but. And later for values of immediately. I gather that was the original intent of the RFC as well. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ? From: King, Brad [mailto:brad.k...@team.telstra.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 1:46 PM To: Michael Wise ; mailop@mailop.org Subject: RE: Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses Thanks for the response Michael. As I seen this with a message with 3 Hotmail recipients, would it be fair to say, that this is not related to volume? That is if we send to 2 recipients that happen to be in different regions the second recipient will be rejected with 452, to be retried later? Rgs, Brad From: Michael Wise [mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com] Sent: Thursday, 25 January 2018 6:33 AM To: King, Brad mailto:brad.k...@team.telstra.com>>; mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> Subject: RE: Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses Much internal discussion, but ... Apparently ... " 452 is a special error code (per RFC) that instructs the sending MTA to retry the rejected recipients immediately. " it is designed to split messages with a large number of recipients. Apparently that's not exactly what we're using it for, but there you go. In theory, one or more of the recipients would deliver, and the first one to a different region would get this response, and then the next try for the remaining ... should deliver. Unless there's more than two other zones, in which case it's now an N-1 problem, and ... Lather, Rinse, Repeat until Done. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdownload%2Fdetails.aspx%3Fid%3D18275&data=02%7C01%7CMichael.Wise%40microsoft.com%7Cbff9ecb9168d4f3e4b4508d56373d717%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636524271560356293&sdata=EtDKAldJdG%2Bb86wiVODkVyH5vzmDT%2FSgOXRSDvCr1Hs%3D&reserved=0> ? From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of King, Brad Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 5:02 PM To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> Subject: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses Hi, We are seeing temporary rejections from Hotmail with the following error: 452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 [CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com] Does anyone know what this means? This particular sample had 3 Hotmail recipients. Rgs, Brad ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
Thanks for the response Michael. As I seen this with a message with 3 Hotmail recipients, would it be fair to say, that this is not related to volume? That is if we send to 2 recipients that happen to be in different regions the second recipient will be rejected with 452, to be retried later? Rgs, Brad From: Michael Wise [mailto:michael.w...@microsoft.com] Sent: Thursday, 25 January 2018 6:33 AM To: King, Brad ; mailop@mailop.org Subject: RE: Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses Much internal discussion, but ... Apparently ... " 452 is a special error code (per RFC) that instructs the sending MTA to retry the rejected recipients immediately. " it is designed to split messages with a large number of recipients. Apparently that's not exactly what we're using it for, but there you go. In theory, one or more of the recipients would deliver, and the first one to a different region would get this response, and then the next try for the remaining ... should deliver. Unless there's more than two other zones, in which case it's now an N-1 problem, and ... Lather, Rinse, Repeat until Done. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ? From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of King, Brad Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 5:02 PM To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> Subject: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses Hi, We are seeing temporary rejections from Hotmail with the following error: 452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 [CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com] Does anyone know what this means? This particular sample had 3 Hotmail recipients. Rgs, Brad ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
Hi Michael, At 12:20 PM 24-01-2018, Michael Wise via mailop wrote: Hack: an in-elegant solution that one personally doesn't like, but that appears to work. As to the retry interval, I feel a bit out of my depth on that one, and I guess it all depends on exactly WHY the 452 was thrown, but ... the implication seems to be that an immediate retry (maybe give it a few seconds?) would be the preferred way to handle it, maybe with some sort of exponential back-off? The "immediate retry" could be read as "immediate". From a receiver's perspective, that does not sound like a good idea. Why would the receiver's implementation require segmented delivery? Regards, -sm ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
> > > And as a follow-up, eyeballs have been successfully attracted. Michael, you *totally* rock; you are *very* appreciated! Anne Anne P. Mitchell, Attorney at Law CEO/President, SuretyMail Email Reputation Certification and Inbox Delivery Assistance http://www.SuretyMail.com/ http://www.SuretyMail.eu/ Attorney at Law / Legislative Consultant Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal anti-spam law) Author: The Email Deliverability Handbook Legal Counsel: The CyberGreen Institute Legal Counsel: The Earth Law Center Member, California Bar Cyberspace Law Committee Member, Colorado Cybersecurity Consortium Member, Board of Directors, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop Member, Advisory Board, Cause for Awareness Member, Elevations Credit Union Member Council Former Chair, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop Ret. Professor of Law, Lincoln Law School of San Jose Available for consultations by special arrangement. amitch...@isipp.com | @AnnePMitchell Facebook/AnnePMitchell | LinkedIn/in/annemitchell ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
And as a follow-up, eyeballs have been successfully attracted. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ? From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Michael Wise via mailop Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:57 AM To: Benjamin BILLON ; mailop@mailop.org Subject: Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses Thanks for the kind words. The below noted errors have been added to the list. Again, the 452 should be an immediate retry… not so sure about the 451s and 421s. By definition, 4xx codes are, “Please Retry” and classically the retry interval is MTA specific. Still … weird. Needs to attract eyeballs. Working the issues. Thanks! Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Fdownload%2Fdetails.aspx%3Fid%3D18275&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C9f8596c18a5e4edb516808d56365b396%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636524210817679661&sdata=UZFa%2FHdNxLRxBbxKXRsqiiedrRYHw72Cv0lh3q3rZro%3D&reserved=0> ? From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Benjamin BILLON Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 2:37 AM To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> Subject: Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses Although indeed comical, I think we should all appreciate the level of details we have access to. It’s the kind of transparency which can help solve issues faster. -- Benjamin From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Emre Üst |euro.message| Sent: Wednesday, 24 January, 2018 17:47 To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> Subject: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses Hi Brad, We are seeing lots of temporary errors ; the funniest error is; ** Error: "452 4.3.1 Insufficient system resources (UsedVersionBuckets[D:\Queue]) [AM5EUR03HT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2FAM5EUR03HT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182&sdata=WG%2F%2BskHDc0AB298aFpLtsREesRqdqSC1JIIfDq8EYTg%3D&reserved=0>] [AM5EUR03FT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2FAM5EUR03FT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182&sdata=GDu0cGDFd5KXo3Vef2qeNWkOG7G5nVGkHrva4IhPmYQ%3D&reserved=0>]" while connected from eg-c-5-031.euromsg.net<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Feg-c-5-031.euromsg.net&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182&sdata=EwXrvJ9ZNKWwhdMsz7dfaqWiX9uYmX3sT6tV7%2FQ96cw%3D&reserved=0> (185.11.212.31) to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182&sdata=HLklzMQNX93xlsgUrw%2FVFhmGDZ6w015lnT7g2u82N60%3D&reserved=0> (104.47.8.33) * Error: "451 4.4.0 Message failed to be made redundant due to A shadow copy was required but failed to be made with an AckStatus of Retry [DB5EUR03HT243.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2FDB5EUR03HT243.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182&sdata=OpzZCawAM09TuaEe7X2pWfYlwnDkWiKNLrSG6j2SyWw%3D&reserved=0>] [DB5EUR03FT029.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2FDB5EUR03FT029.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182&sdata=SvLPTvr6pWmiGwH0CUvK03FAv4czGGlfGxKdZ4lJOh8%3D&reserved=0>]" while connected from ) to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb73
Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
Hack: an in-elegant solution that one personally doesn't like, but that appears to work. As to the retry interval, I feel a bit out of my depth on that one, and I guess it all depends on exactly WHY the 452 was thrown, but ... the implication seems to be that an immediate retry (maybe give it a few seconds?) would be the preferred way to handle it, maybe with some sort of exponential back-off? Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ? -Original Message- From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Steve Atkins Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 11:49 AM To: mailop@mailop.org Subject: Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses > On Jan 24, 2018, at 11:32 AM, Michael Wise via mailop > mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote: > > > Much internal discussion, but … > Apparently … > > “ 452 is a special error code (per RFC) that instructs the sending MTA to > retry the rejected recipients immediately. > “ it is designed to split messages with a large number of recipients. https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftools.wordtothewise.com%2Frfc%2F5321%23section-4.5.3.1.9&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C246f18f9638c4425e1c708d56364f4f5%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636524207624695015&sdata=bvELqPvQEBM35wzj7XjKoGvFnVR8cDJ5TMAVBc2Syzc%3D&reserved=0 Not exactly compliant, but I guess it's a reasonable hack. > Apparently that’s not exactly what we’re using it for, but there you go. > In theory, one or more of the recipients would deliver, and the first one to > a different region would get this response, and then the next try for the > remaining … should deliver. > Unless there’s more than two other zones, in which case it’s now an N-1 > problem, and … Lather, Rinse, Repeat until Done. Seems like it should work, in that a compliant sending MTA should retry with some deliveries potentially delayed. Should smarthosts be scheduling delivery attempts that get a 452 in response to RCPT TO for immediate retry, or is that a bit risky? Cheers, Steve ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fchilli.nosignal.org%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fmailop&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C246f18f9638c4425e1c708d56364f4f5%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636524207624695015&sdata=MmmEw0inMYK1CWrjDu7J2f2DzG3eGaeJ%2FJu42dXNAE0%3D&reserved=0 ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
> On Jan 24, 2018, at 11:32 AM, Michael Wise via mailop > wrote: > > > Much internal discussion, but … > Apparently … > > “ 452 is a special error code (per RFC) that instructs the sending MTA to > retry the rejected recipients immediately. > “ it is designed to split messages with a large number of recipients. http://tools.wordtothewise.com/rfc/5321#section-4.5.3.1.9 Not exactly compliant, but I guess it's a reasonable hack. > Apparently that’s not exactly what we’re using it for, but there you go. > In theory, one or more of the recipients would deliver, and the first one to > a different region would get this response, and then the next try for the > remaining … should deliver. > Unless there’s more than two other zones, in which case it’s now an N-1 > problem, and … Lather, Rinse, Repeat until Done. Seems like it should work, in that a compliant sending MTA should retry with some deliveries potentially delayed. Should smarthosts be scheduling delivery attempts that get a 452 in response to RCPT TO for immediate retry, or is that a bit risky? Cheers, Steve ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
Thanks for the kind words. The below noted errors have been added to the list. Again, the 452 should be an immediate retry… not so sure about the 451s and 421s. By definition, 4xx codes are, “Please Retry” and classically the retry interval is MTA specific. Still … weird. Needs to attract eyeballs. Working the issues. Thanks! Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ? From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Benjamin BILLON Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 2:37 AM To: mailop@mailop.org Subject: Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses Although indeed comical, I think we should all appreciate the level of details we have access to. It’s the kind of transparency which can help solve issues faster. -- Benjamin From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Emre Üst |euro.message| Sent: Wednesday, 24 January, 2018 17:47 To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org> Subject: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses Hi Brad, We are seeing lots of temporary errors ; the funniest error is; ** Error: "452 4.3.1 Insufficient system resources (UsedVersionBuckets[D:\Queue]) [AM5EUR03HT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2FAM5EUR03HT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182&sdata=WG%2F%2BskHDc0AB298aFpLtsREesRqdqSC1JIIfDq8EYTg%3D&reserved=0>] [AM5EUR03FT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2FAM5EUR03FT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182&sdata=GDu0cGDFd5KXo3Vef2qeNWkOG7G5nVGkHrva4IhPmYQ%3D&reserved=0>]" while connected from eg-c-5-031.euromsg.net<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Feg-c-5-031.euromsg.net&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182&sdata=EwXrvJ9ZNKWwhdMsz7dfaqWiX9uYmX3sT6tV7%2FQ96cw%3D&reserved=0> (185.11.212.31) to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182&sdata=HLklzMQNX93xlsgUrw%2FVFhmGDZ6w015lnT7g2u82N60%3D&reserved=0> (104.47.8.33) * Error: "451 4.4.0 Message failed to be made redundant due to A shadow copy was required but failed to be made with an AckStatus of Retry [DB5EUR03HT243.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2FDB5EUR03HT243.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182&sdata=OpzZCawAM09TuaEe7X2pWfYlwnDkWiKNLrSG6j2SyWw%3D&reserved=0>] [DB5EUR03FT029.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2FDB5EUR03FT029.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182&sdata=SvLPTvr6pWmiGwH0CUvK03FAv4czGGlfGxKdZ4lJOh8%3D&reserved=0>]" while connected from ) to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182&sdata=HLklzMQNX93xlsgUrw%2FVFhmGDZ6w015lnT7g2u82N60%3D&reserved=0> (104.47.10.33) SMTP service unavailable: "421 4.4.1 Connection timed out. Total session duration: 00:14:19.6338392 [DB5EUR03FT041.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2FDB5EUR03FT041.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%40microsoft.com%7C4eddcf8b894f4c8d9bc808d5631836e4%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636523878040867182&sdata=iDWKslEs7zilnVX3yrZ157Kt6Zj6ecYDRgxOUG66rkE%3D&reserved=0>]" received from hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fhotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com&data=02%7C01%7Cmichael.wise%
Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
On 24 Jan 2018, at 19:32, Michael Wise via mailop wrote: > In theory, one or more of the recipients would deliver, and the first one to > a different region would get this response, and then the next try for the > remaining … should deliver. This is functionally identical behaviour to Google’s “mixed domain” deferrals - seen when sending to (for example) gmail.com and a hosted GSuite domain in the same transaction. Deferred recipients are retried, per protocol, until they’ve all delivered. Graeme ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
Much internal discussion, but ... Apparently ... " 452 is a special error code (per RFC) that instructs the sending MTA to retry the rejected recipients immediately. " it is designed to split messages with a large number of recipients. Apparently that's not exactly what we're using it for, but there you go. In theory, one or more of the recipients would deliver, and the first one to a different region would get this response, and then the next try for the remaining ... should deliver. Unless there's more than two other zones, in which case it's now an N-1 problem, and ... Lather, Rinse, Repeat until Done. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool<http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=18275> ? From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of King, Brad Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2018 5:02 PM To: mailop@mailop.org Subject: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses Hi, We are seeing temporary rejections from Hotmail with the following error: 452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 [CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com] Does anyone know what this means? This particular sample had 3 Hotmail recipients. Rgs, Brad ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
On 23 Jan 2018, at 17:02, King, Brad wrote: Hi, We are seeing temporary rejections from Hotmail with the following error: 452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 [CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com] Does anyone know what this means? This particular sample had 3 Hotmail recipients. Are you seeing this within the same SMTP transaction, such as when the first few recipients get a 2xx and then some of the recipients get the ATTR38? If so, what happens in the next delivery attempt with the ones that got the ATTR38? Best regards -lem ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
Although indeed comical, I think we should all appreciate the level of details we have access to. It’s the kind of transparency which can help solve issues faster. -- Benjamin From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Emre Üst |euro.message| Sent: Wednesday, 24 January, 2018 17:47 To: mailop@mailop.org Subject: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses Hi Brad, We are seeing lots of temporary errors ; the funniest error is; ** Error: "452 4.3.1 Insufficient system resources (UsedVersionBuckets[D:\Queue]) [AM5EUR03HT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://AM5EUR03HT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>] [AM5EUR03FT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://AM5EUR03FT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>]" while connected from eg-c-5-031.euromsg.net<http://eg-c-5-031.euromsg.net> (185.11.212.31) to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<http://hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com> (104.47.8.33) * Error: "451 4.4.0 Message failed to be made redundant due to A shadow copy was required but failed to be made with an AckStatus of Retry [DB5EUR03HT243.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://DB5EUR03HT243.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>] [DB5EUR03FT029.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://DB5EUR03FT029.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>]" while connected from ) to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<http://hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com> (104.47.10.33) SMTP service unavailable: "421 4.4.1 Connection timed out. Total session duration: 00:14:19.6338392 [DB5EUR03FT041.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://DB5EUR03FT041.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>]" received from hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<http://hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com> (104.47.10.33) while connected from eg- to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<http://hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com> (104.47.10.33) Error: "451 4.7.0 Temporary server error. Please try again later. PRX5 NextHop: DB5-EUR03b.hub.protection.outlook.com<http://DB5-EUR03b.hub.protection.outlook.com> [DB5EUR03FT050.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://DB5EUR03FT050.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>]" while connected from to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<http://hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com> (104.47.10.33) SMTP service unavailable: "421 4.3.2 The maximum number of concurrent server connections has exceeded a limit, closing transmission channel (DB5EUR03FT050.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://DB5EUR03FT050.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>) [DB5EUR03FT050.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://DB5EUR03FT050.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>]" received from hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<http://hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com> (104.47.10.33) while connected from ) to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<http://hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com> (104.47.10.33) SMTP service unavailable: smtp;451 4.7.0 Timeout waiting for client input [VE1EUR02FT032.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://VE1EUR02FT032.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com>] Error: "452 4.3.1 Insufficient system resources [AM5EUR03HT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://AM5EUR03HT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>] [AM5EUR03FT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com<http://AM5EUR03FT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com>]" while connected from to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com<http://hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com> (104.47.8.33) ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
[mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
Hi Brad, We are seeing lots of temporary errors ; the funniest error is; ** Error: "452 4.3.1 Insufficient system resources (UsedVersionBuckets[D:\Queue]) [ AM5EUR03HT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com] [ AM5EUR03FT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com]" while connected from eg-c-5-031.euromsg.net (185.11.212.31) to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com (104.47.8.33) * Error: "451 4.4.0 Message failed to be made redundant due to A shadow copy was required but failed to be made with an AckStatus of Retry [ DB5EUR03HT243.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com] [ DB5EUR03FT029.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com]" while connected from ) to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com (104.47.10.33) SMTP service unavailable: "421 4.4.1 Connection timed out. Total session duration: 00:14:19.6338392 [ DB5EUR03FT041.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com]" received from hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com (104.47.10.33) while connected from eg- to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com (104.47.10.33) Error: "451 4.7.0 Temporary server error. Please try again later. PRX5 NextHop: DB5-EUR03b.hub.protection.outlook.com [ DB5EUR03FT050.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com]" while connected from to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com (104.47.10.33) SMTP service unavailable: "421 4.3.2 The maximum number of concurrent server connections has exceeded a limit, closing transmission channel ( DB5EUR03FT050.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com) [ DB5EUR03FT050.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com]" received from hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com (104.47.10.33) while connected from ) to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com (104.47.10.33) SMTP service unavailable: smtp;451 4.7.0 Timeout waiting for client input [ VE1EUR02FT032.eop-EUR02.prod.protection.outlook.com] Error: "452 4.3.1 Insufficient system resources [ AM5EUR03HT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com] [ AM5EUR03FT002.eop-EUR03.prod.protection.outlook.com]" while connected from to hotmail-com.olc.protection.outlook.com (104.47.8.33) ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
Something else is going on. Because separate regions is not a problem if you would store the email "per recipient". Just replicate it and store it in more than one region. Somehow this is not allowed. So it also means that they only want to store the email just once. That can be a functional requirement (once per tenant) or for their anti-spam system (which probably does not like multi-tenant systems since it would result in inconsistent results). Yours, David On 24 January 2018 at 05:29, Benjamin BILLON wrote: > Some thingS are, but solely complaining here is not going to help them > solve their (various) issues. > > > 452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 [ > CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com] > Given the reply, I'd say it's related to the fact they have distinct nodes > / regions, and that's a big oopsie. > For O365, although not convenient, I understand the principle of having > multiple tenants. (Who wants to use a single, integrated collaborative > system for all worldwide offices, anyway? Yes, it is said in a sarcastic > way) > For Hotmail, which is by essence a "global" service, it would lead to this > kind of issues indeed > > -- > Benjamin > > -Original Message- > From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Charles > McKean > Sent: Wednesday, 24 January, 2018 11:39 > To: mailop@mailop.org > Subject: Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses > > On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 9:41 PM, Joe Hamelin wrote: > > It means they should have stuck to BSD and sendmail. ;) > > Now somebody else will pop up and tell them to submit a ticket and they > will reply that they have submitted 6 tickets and Microsoft isn't > responding to them. > > SOMETHING IS BADLY BROKEN OVER AT MICROSOFT, FOLKS. > > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > -- -- My opinion is mine. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
Some thingS are, but solely complaining here is not going to help them solve their (various) issues. > 452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 > [CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com] Given the reply, I'd say it's related to the fact they have distinct nodes / regions, and that's a big oopsie. For O365, although not convenient, I understand the principle of having multiple tenants. (Who wants to use a single, integrated collaborative system for all worldwide offices, anyway? Yes, it is said in a sarcastic way) For Hotmail, which is by essence a "global" service, it would lead to this kind of issues indeed -- Benjamin -Original Message- From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Charles McKean Sent: Wednesday, 24 January, 2018 11:39 To: mailop@mailop.org Subject: Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 9:41 PM, Joe Hamelin wrote: > It means they should have stuck to BSD and sendmail. ;) Now somebody else will pop up and tell them to submit a ticket and they will reply that they have submitted 6 tickets and Microsoft isn't responding to them. SOMETHING IS BADLY BROKEN OVER AT MICROSOFT, FOLKS. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 9:41 PM, Joe Hamelin wrote: > It means they should have stuck to BSD and sendmail. ;) Now somebody else will pop up and tell them to submit a ticket and they will reply that they have submitted 6 tickets and Microsoft isn't responding to them. SOMETHING IS BADLY BROKEN OVER AT MICROSOFT, FOLKS. ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
Re: [mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
It means they should have stuck to BSD and sendmail. ;) -- Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA, +1 (360) 474-7474 On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 5:02 PM, King, Brad wrote: > Hi, > > > > We are seeing temporary rejections from Hotmail with the following error: > > > 452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 [ > CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com] > > > > Does anyone know what this means? This particular sample had 3 Hotmail > recipients. > > > > Rgs, > > > > Brad > > > > > > ___ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > > ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
[mailop] Issues delivering to Hotmail addresses
Hi, We are seeing temporary rejections from Hotmail with the following error: 452 4.5.3 Recipients belong to multiple regions ATTR38 [CO1NAM03FT062.eop-NAM03.prod.protection.outlook.com] Does anyone know what this means? This particular sample had 3 Hotmail recipients. Rgs, Brad ___ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop